Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[linda]

Thanks Cheri!

I'm sure you're right, and that there were other factors that determined 
why they ended up on S. Miguel for the wedding.  Such a mystery!

:D

Linda

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 12:27:18 PM UTC-8, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> I looked up a calendar for 1849 and yes, Lent would have been from 22 
> February and 8 April (Easter Sunday). You couldn't marry during Lent. 
> However, it didn't matter where you married, as the marriage banns had to 
> be posted at both the bride and groom's home churches. Maybe they moved 
> around trying to conceive her pregnancy (that's a bit expensive), but a 
> possibility. 
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, 
> Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 12:00 PM linda > 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Probably this is the source for that info in the database about the 
>> Gazelle, 1870:
>>
>>
>> https://www.worldcat.org/title/logbook-of-the-ship-gazelle-1870-oct-26-1872-nov-28/oclc/71254679=brief_results
>>
>> I can't see where the logbook itself is held, but it must still exist.
>>
>> It seems that the whaling museum has a logbook database in an excel file 
>> (hope this link will work):
>>
>>
>> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web=16=2ahUKEwik0OSjx6TnAhWhna0KHcvrA3AQFjAPegQIAxAB=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.whalingmuseum.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FDocuments%2FLogbook%2520Database%2520Master_web.xls=AOvVaw3aUTqkSiGAaEq18He9SVHv
>>
>> It comes up near the top of a google search on the terms 
>>
>> ship seconet logbook 1855
>>
>> I have to run, but hope this provides a lead.  
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:33:02 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry but in my memory I co-mingled some whaling crew entries.  There 
>>> are many Francis Joseph, Francisco Jose, or other iterations in the whaling 
>>> crew database.  Many can be eliminated by age or residence.  I also 
>>> eliminated any entry before 1855 since he was listed as a carpenter and not 
>>> a mariner his son's baptisms that year.  That left several that didn't have 
>>> enough data to be eliminated, but two that had additional data consistent 
>>> with being my Francisco Jose.  It was these two I co-mingled.  First was 
>>> 1855 on the Ship Seconet who was listed as a COOPER but it did not give his 
>>> age or residence.  A cooper would be consistent with Francisco Jose being a 
>>> carpenter and with Francis Joseph in New Zealand being a cooper.  The 
>>> second was a Francis Joseph on the Bark Gazelle in 1870 which gives his age 
>>> as 43 and his residence as Sao Jorge, Azores.  Either or both of these 
>>> could fit (or not) my wife's ancestor.
>>>
>>> Bill Seidler
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:57:57 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:

 Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry 
 for the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean 
 obit for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and 
 in 
 Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name 
 and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is 
 that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew 
 member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge, 
 Azores, whose job was "cooper".

 Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what 
 Tony (my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.

 Thanks again,
 Bill

 -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[Cheri Mello]

I looked up a calendar for 1849 and yes, Lent would have been from 22
February and 8 April (Easter Sunday). You couldn't marry during Lent.
However, it didn't matter where you married, as the marriage banns had to
be posted at both the bride and groom's home churches. Maybe they moved
around trying to conceive her pregnancy (that's a bit expensive), but a
possibility.
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente,
Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada


On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 12:00 PM linda  wrote:

>
> Probably this is the source for that info in the database about the
> Gazelle, 1870:
>
>
> https://www.worldcat.org/title/logbook-of-the-ship-gazelle-1870-oct-26-1872-nov-28/oclc/71254679=brief_results
>
> I can't see where the logbook itself is held, but it must still exist.
>
> It seems that the whaling museum has a logbook database in an excel file
> (hope this link will work):
>
>
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web=16=2ahUKEwik0OSjx6TnAhWhna0KHcvrA3AQFjAPegQIAxAB=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.whalingmuseum.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FDocuments%2FLogbook%2520Database%2520Master_web.xls=AOvVaw3aUTqkSiGAaEq18He9SVHv
>
> It comes up near the top of a google search on the terms
>
> ship seconet logbook 1855
>
> I have to run, but hope this provides a lead.
>
> :)
>
> Linda
>
> On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:33:02 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>>
>> Sorry but in my memory I co-mingled some whaling crew entries.  There are
>> many Francis Joseph, Francisco Jose, or other iterations in the whaling
>> crew database.  Many can be eliminated by age or residence.  I also
>> eliminated any entry before 1855 since he was listed as a carpenter and not
>> a mariner his son's baptisms that year.  That left several that didn't have
>> enough data to be eliminated, but two that had additional data consistent
>> with being my Francisco Jose.  It was these two I co-mingled.  First was
>> 1855 on the Ship Seconet who was listed as a COOPER but it did not give his
>> age or residence.  A cooper would be consistent with Francisco Jose being a
>> carpenter and with Francis Joseph in New Zealand being a cooper.  The
>> second was a Francis Joseph on the Bark Gazelle in 1870 which gives his age
>> as 43 and his residence as Sao Jorge, Azores.  Either or both of these
>> could fit (or not) my wife's ancestor.
>>
>> Bill Seidler
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:57:57 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry
>>> for the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean
>>> obit for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and in
>>> Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name
>>> and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is
>>> that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew
>>> member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge,
>>> Azores, whose job was "cooper".
>>>
>>> Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what
>>> Tony (my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.
>>>
>>> Thanks again,
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> --
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> 
> .
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[linda]

Probably this is the source for that info in the database about the 
Gazelle, 1870:

https://www.worldcat.org/title/logbook-of-the-ship-gazelle-1870-oct-26-1872-nov-28/oclc/71254679=brief_results

I can't see where the logbook itself is held, but it must still exist.

It seems that the whaling museum has a logbook database in an excel file 
(hope this link will work):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web=16=2ahUKEwik0OSjx6TnAhWhna0KHcvrA3AQFjAPegQIAxAB=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.whalingmuseum.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FDocuments%2FLogbook%2520Database%2520Master_web.xls=AOvVaw3aUTqkSiGAaEq18He9SVHv

It comes up near the top of a google search on the terms 

ship seconet logbook 1855

I have to run, but hope this provides a lead.  

:)

Linda

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:33:02 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>
> Sorry but in my memory I co-mingled some whaling crew entries.  There are 
> many Francis Joseph, Francisco Jose, or other iterations in the whaling 
> crew database.  Many can be eliminated by age or residence.  I also 
> eliminated any entry before 1855 since he was listed as a carpenter and not 
> a mariner his son's baptisms that year.  That left several that didn't have 
> enough data to be eliminated, but two that had additional data consistent 
> with being my Francisco Jose.  It was these two I co-mingled.  First was 
> 1855 on the Ship Seconet who was listed as a COOPER but it did not give his 
> age or residence.  A cooper would be consistent with Francisco Jose being a 
> carpenter and with Francis Joseph in New Zealand being a cooper.  The 
> second was a Francis Joseph on the Bark Gazelle in 1870 which gives his age 
> as 43 and his residence as Sao Jorge, Azores.  Either or both of these 
> could fit (or not) my wife's ancestor.
>
> Bill Seidler
>
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:57:57 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>>
>> Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry 
>> for the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean 
>> obit for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and in 
>> Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name 
>> and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is 
>> that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew 
>> member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge, 
>> Azores, whose job was "cooper".
>>
>> Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what Tony 
>> (my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Bill
>>
>>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[Bill Seidler]

Sorry but in my memory I co-mingled some whaling crew entries.  There are 
many Francis Joseph, Francisco Jose, or other iterations in the whaling 
crew database.  Many can be eliminated by age or residence.  I also 
eliminated any entry before 1855 since he was listed as a carpenter and not 
a mariner his son's baptisms that year.  That left several that didn't have 
enough data to be eliminated, but two that had additional data consistent 
with being my Francisco Jose.  It was these two I co-mingled.  First was 
1855 on the Ship Seconet who was listed as a COOPER but it did not give his 
age or residence.  A cooper would be consistent with Francisco Jose being a 
carpenter and with Francis Joseph in New Zealand being a cooper.  The 
second was a Francis Joseph on the Bark Gazelle in 1870 which gives his age 
as 43 and his residence as Sao Jorge, Azores.  Either or both of these 
could fit (or not) my wife's ancestor.

Bill Seidler

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:57:57 AM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>
> Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry 
> for the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean 
> obit for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and in 
> Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name 
> and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is 
> that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew 
> member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge, 
> Azores, whose job was "cooper".
>
> Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what Tony 
> (my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.
>
> Thanks again,
> Bill
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[JesseAndDeborah Mendonca]

Bill,
I have nothing to add except to tell you that you are a masterful
researcher.  The way you connect with people is a lesson in itself.
Debbie

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 11:58 AM Bill Seidler  wrote:

> Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry
> for the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean
> obit for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and in
> Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name
> and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is
> that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew
> member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge,
> Azores, whose job was "cooper".
>
> Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what Tony
> (my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.
>
> Thanks again,
> Bill
>
> --
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> "Azores Genealogy" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/9184646b-6149-4320-b164-468bb1aac97d%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[Bill Seidler]

Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry for 
the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean obit 
for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and in 
Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name 
and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is 
that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew 
member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge, 
Azores, whose job was "cooper".

Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what Tony 
(my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.

Thanks again,
Bill

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Francis Joseph Timeline in New Zealand.docx
Description: MS-Word 2007 document


Records that list or mention Francisco Jose Cordeiro.docx
Description: MS-Word 2007 document

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[linda]

Hi Bill,

Just some thoughts:

Have you tried drawing out timelines for your Francisco Jose Cordeiro and 
for the NZ Francisco Jose?  Sometimes that helps clarify things.  

What documents exist for the New Zealand Francisco Jose?  

I'm struck by how much Francisco Jose and Maria Isabel seemed to be moving 
around.  I'd look at a timeline of events in the Azores to see if there 
might be external reasons for their island hopping.  Personal/economic 
reasons would be harder to identify-- not that this would help you figure 
it out, but I like to think about context...  I also think it's interesting 
that Maria is significantly older than Francisco and that their first child 
is born only about 5 months after the wedding.   And that he was only in 
his late 20's when he may have vanished from the Azorean records.  

You don't explicitly say, but I assume you haven't found an obit for 
Francisco Jose, and you're trying to use other evidence to confirm his 
presence or absence in the Azores?  

Circumstantial evidence and supposition aside, the DNA links seem 
compelling.  Is there another way to explain them?

I doubt there's anything here you haven't already considered, but maybe it 
will spark an idea.

What an interesting mystery!

best of luck,

Linda



On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 3:45:15 PM UTC-8, Bill Seidler wrote:
>
> This is asking a lot, but I am hoping someone will take up interest and 
> offer me an opinion or guidance.  I suspect my wife's 2d Great Grandfather 
> left the Azores in the 1860s and ended up in New Zealand.  
>
> He is mentioned on his last child's baptism (João)  in 1854.  Then he is 
> the father of the groom on the same child's marriage in 1882.  It does not 
> say he was absent, but I don't think it would since the groom was of age.  
> If my theory is correct he would have already been gone.  He is also 
> mentioned as the paternal grandfather on the baptisms of the four children 
> of his son João.  His first son, Manuel, left around 1869 and ended up in 
> Sacramento, CA under the name Manuel J. Lamb.  His second son died as an 
> infant.
>
> He is next mentioned in his wife's (Maria Isabel) Obit which states that 
> she is still married to Francisco José Cordeiro.  It confirms that she is 
> leaving two sons which concurs with the baptisms and obit I have found for 
> their children.
>
> Then on the list of inventories available on Sãojorgegenealogy.org (image 
> attached), her son João (Manuel was already in Sacramento) is listed as the 
> one doing the inventory.  Would this have been her husband if he were 
> present?  If the theory I am attempting to test in true, her husband was 
> already married to someone else in New Zealand by this time.  In New 
> Zealand, Francis Joseph (who I suspect is Francisco José Cordeiro) reported 
> that he was married before but was widowed. 
>
> My wife is a close DNA match to descendants of the Francis Joseph in New 
> Zealand.  There is one descendant of Antonio José Cordeiro (Francisco's 
> father on Gracioisa) that matches both my wife and the descendants of 
> Francis Joseph in New Zealand.
>
> I have attached links to the CCA records that tracked Francisco José 
> Cordeiro to the extent I was able and a .jpg image in the inventory list 
> for any that would be willing to help me sort this out.
>
>
> His baptism in 1828 São Mateus da Praia, Graciosa: (Francisco, starting 
> just below top right).
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833_item1/P30.html
>
>
> His marriage in 1849 in São Sebastião, Ponta Delgada, S. Miguel (starts 
> bottom left)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854_item1/P121.html
>
>
> First child baptism in 1849 São Mateus da Praia, Graciosa (starts bottom 
> right)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855_item1/P179.html
>
>
> Second child baptism in 1852 Urzelina, São Jorge (Third on left)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P82.html
>
>
> Second child’s obit in Urzelina a month later: (second on right)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858_item1/P41.html
>
>
> Third child’s baptism in 1854 in Urzelina (bottom left)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860_item1/P14.html
>
>
> Third child’s marriage in 1882 in Urzelina (left side)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889_item1/P24.html
>
>
> Wife’s obit in 1901 in Urzelina (bottom right)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911_item1/P14.html
>
>
>