Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

2014-09-26 Thread Kawika322 
Eric, Doug, Joao, 

Thanks for all of the information you provided on the pai incognito 
details. Since Pedro Jose de Avelar is my direct ancestor, this is 
particularly interesting. This family line has a lot in mysteries in the 
records. As Joao mentioned, It is hard to say if Claudia is the sibling of 
Pedro and Monica with just that one record, but it does bring up some 
interesting details. 

I have yet to find the death record of the mother Florencia Maria also. 
That record could hopefully bring some more insight into the situation, as 
to her specific place of birth and age. I have also not found anything on 
the mother of Florencia, only referred to as Maria "of" Corvo. Florencia is 
also a pai incognito so more mysteries await, lol. 

Also, I wonder what the significance of the Avelar surname is? Where did it 
come from? What it possibly in reference to the pai incognito? or maybe 
from the mother's side?

For Pedro, I have yet to find his death record, which is interesting. He 
was married in Nossa Senhora do Rosario, Lajes de Flores and his children 
were born in that parish. I have search quite a bit through the obitos in 
that parish but haven't found him yet.

One thing I wonder is that if Pedro's death still cannot be found, it may 
be possible that he made his way to California with some of the family back 
in 1868 or 1869. I know it would be a long shot, but after the death of 
Pedro's son-in-law Joao Antonio de Freitas Mendonca (my g.g.g grandfather) 
in Dec 1868, Pedro's grandson Francisco Pedro Freitas (son of Joao de 
Freitas Mendonca) immigrated to California between 1868 and 1869. Pedro may 
have accompanied them. He would have been pretty old by then though, so who 
knows. In the 1870 census in Brooklyn Township, Oakland, California, 
Francisco (Frank) Pedro Freitas shows up along with a Joseph Pedro who is 
older and could be Pedro Jose Avelar, but I cannot say either way. 


Anyways, I digress..the name "Pedro" seems to have been important in our 
family and stuck around for quite a while. My g.g. grandfather was Antone 
Pedro Freitas (grandson of Pedro Jose Avelar), and his brother was Jose 
Freitas Pedro. The brother actually used Pedro as his surname for some 
time. Antone Pedro Freitas also had a son name Pedro (Peter) who died very 
young. So it is possible that Pedro Jose Avelar was close to family and 
hung around for a while, lol..

I would appreciate any of your thoughts Doug, Eric, and Joao, since your 
wife and I share this family connection.

 David


On Friday, September 26, 2014 6:44:22 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> Maria Natalia,  you are right.
>
> I can say I have seen this countless times from the 1700s forward on 
> Terceira and Pico. If I were to pay attention to it elsewhere, I'm sure 
> other places could be included, like Sao Miguel where I suspect you saw it.
>
> I'm not arguing one way or another about Joao's ancestral line. That takes 
> in-depth study which he has done. But it certainly was a fact freed slaves 
> were married to other regular citizens in the community. In fact, I have an 
> ancestor from Sao Bento, Terceira whose son or daughter married the child 
> of a slave. This was about 1700, if I recall.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta
> Delgada, Flores
> From: mnk >
> Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 5:06 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free 
> person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it 
> was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before. 
> Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not 
> mention race or status of the women.
> MNK
>   
>  
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

2014-09-26 Thread luiznoia . 
I believe that Pedro and Monica share the same mother.

 I think Claudia died young as no other records are found for her, and that
the mother is the same, that Maria Coelha and the Cura Domingo Bernardo had
died in the
ten years since Monica's birth

I'm looking at the padrinhos and witnesses on the records



*Pedro*- 1793- Manuel Valdao e Francisca Coelha, *padrinhos*.
Belchior Roiz, Caetano Coelho *testigos*
*Cura* Domingo Bernardo da Silveira

*Monica*-1796-  Manuel Valadao e sua mulher Francisca Coelha *padrinhos,*
  Belchior Roiz, Manuel Roiz,* testigos*
*Cura *Domingo
Bernardo da Silveira

*Claudia*-1806- Raimundo Jose Coelho *padrinho, *
  Caetano Coelho, *testigo  *
   *Cura* Antonio Lourenco


Here's *Pedro* on a marriage record:

*Pedro José de Avelar* [n. Ponta Delgada, Santa Cruz das Flores, f.º de pai
incógnito e de Florência Maria]

 c. 1813.02.18 c. Úrsula Joaquina [f.ª de pai incógnito e de Isabel Maria].


Here's *Monica *on a marriage record:

João Pimentel Canhoto [f.º de Manuel Pimentel Canhoto e de Inácia Rosa]

 c. 1816.08.12 c. *Mónica Coelho* [n. Ponta Delgada, Santa Cruz das Flores,
f.ª de pai incógnito e de Florência Rosa].




Marriage record from Ponta Delgada for Padrinhos:

*Manuel Valadão* [f.º de João Valadão e de Maria Valadão]
c. 1769.04.04
 *Francisca Coelho* [f.ª de João Rodrigues e de Maria Coelho].


*Testigo Raimundo Jose Coelho* on a marriage record:


*Raimundo José Coelho* [f.º de Pedro Coelho e de Bárbara Maria]
 .
1799.08.01 c. Emerenciana da Conceição [f.ª de Manuel Furtado e de Mariana
Coelho, ambos j. d.].


*Testigo Caetano Coelho* on a  Ponta Delgada  marriage record:

Manuel Joaquim de Avelar [n. Corvo, f.º de *Caetano Coelho* e de Helena de
Freitas]

 c. 1801.09.20 c. Rosa Joaquina de Freitas [f.ª de Manuel Coelho e de
Mariana de Freitas].



 note the "de Avelar' surname shared by Pedro  and Caetano's son



Eric Edgar





On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 6:44 AM,  wrote:

> Maria Natalia,  you are right.
>
> I can say I have seen this countless times from the 1700s forward on
> Terceira and Pico. If I were to pay attention to it elsewhere, I'm sure
> other places could be included, like Sao Miguel where I suspect you saw it.
>
> I'm not arguing one way or another about Joao's ancestral line. That takes
> in-depth study which he has done. But it certainly was a fact freed slaves
> were married to other regular citizens in the community. In fact, I have an
> ancestor from Sao Bento, Terceira whose son or daughter married the child
> of a slave. This was about 1700, if I recall.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta
> Delgada, Flores
> From: mnk 
> Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 5:06 am
> To: azores@googlegroups.com
>
> I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free
> person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it
> was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before.
> Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not
> mention race or status of the women.
> MNK
>
>
>  --
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> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at
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> membership."
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>

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

2014-09-26 Thread pico 
Maria Natalia,  you are right.I can say I have seen this countless times from the 1700s forward on Terceira and Pico. If I were to pay attention to it elsewhere, I'm sure other places could be included, like Sao Miguel where I suspect you saw it.I'm not arguing one way or another about Joao's ancestral line. That takes in-depth study which he has done. But it certainly was a fact freed slaves were married to other regular citizens in the community. In fact, I have an ancestor from Sao Bento, Terceira whose son or daughter married the child of a slave. This was about 1700, if I recall.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com


 Original Message 
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta
Delgada, Flores
From: mnk 
Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 5:06 am
To: azores@googlegroups.com

I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before.  Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not mention race  or status of the women.
MNK 







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