Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Matt, I have to say that most of the people here are actually very, very, very supportive of the BBC, and are being critical friends. If you stop listening to people who are talking sense, logic and rationally there won't be a BBC anymore. Personally, I'm eternally grateful for the BBC Micro and the TV programmes that supported it back in the 1980s, one of the reasons there are so many people in the UK who are not just computer literate (ie can log into Windows and use Internet Explorer) but can programme, network, design, implement and so forth. Being critical is a important part of the software development process - the idea is to test each and every part of a system before the great unwashed get their hands on it - as Douglas Adams (a Mac fan as it happens) A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof, is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. The 4OD service is both irrelevant (this is a BBC backstage list, it would be off-topic) and is basically the original BBC iMP anyway. Please check your original beta testing on the DNA message board if you want comments about it. Channel 4, whilst a Public Corporation like BBC, is funded by advertising not the universal licence fee and whilst comparisons may be interesting, it has always been a publisher-broadcaster and never a producer-broadcaster. Also, C4 has no international presence whatsoever, whereas the every Brit knows that the BBC means we all have automatically have friends all over the world because of Auntie. I presume it's either a fit of prissiness or a three-monkeys moment that made you write your taking your toys home with you email, but let me just remind you that you are a public servant, and we are the public you are supposed to be serving. I think I might just copy your email to the Media Guardian, if that's OK with you. I'll assume that it is if you don't reply. On 18/08/07, Matt Hardiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you know, this sort of BBC bashing is what made leave the backstage list the last time and I regret rejoining again. Aside from the lack of critique of other broadcaster's services like 4OD with similar issues, do you realise just how demoralising your constant, unhelpful rants are for staff within the BBC who are subscribed? for that reason alone, I say goodbye and wish you all well, if you want to continue rants / off topic bbc bashing, you could do no better than subscribing to uk.tech.broadcast and joining in with the DAB single topic people... I won't see your witty retort to this email... so sorry about that goodbye all - it WAS good... regards m -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy *Sent:* Sat 18/08/2007 20:41 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest On 18/08/07, Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No again. The *real* way to provide a platform-independent *service* could involve making tactical decsions along the way to get your service launched on popular platforms and follow this up with an implementation on others. That last bit gives away you have no clue what your talking about! If you have different implementations for different platforms how are you ever going to make anything neutral? It will always work only on select platforms which is never neutral. The only way to get neutrality is to favour no particular platform. The only ways are doing this is either ensuring your application runs independent of platform specifics, or that other can generate software for any specific platform. So which is it going to be? Did you not see the order from the BBC Trust, they ordered you to develop a platform neutral solution. Option 1 would require you to scrap either your entire C based implementation or develop an abstract machine and a C compiler for such a machine and then allow such a machine to be platform neutral. Or to release the C code (to allow compilation for any platform) and remove any platform specific code that's in you C implementation. Remembering that C is _only_ portable provided it was written portably, which is why you at least needed to have considered this from day one. You would need to remove _all_ Windows API calls, which your entire graphics system no doubt calls. And also clean up problems that arise from being cross chip. Many people forget that just because a char is signed on your Windows x86 machine, it may not be on your Linux Strong ARM chipset. Option 2 would require you to release the specifications for all formats and communications protocols. This in turn would involve scraping most of the current implementation or paying Microsoft and Verisign to tell you how their technology works. So could you please explain how it is cost and time effective to produce a huge amount of code that is no rendered useless in complying with legal requirements
Please consider others whilst using this list (was Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest)
Okay all - we feel that it's really important that these kinds of debates can happen on the backstage mailing lists - but over the last month or so some of these debates have got rather heated - no bad thing of course - but that does mean that we are sometimes moving away from the intention of this list, and in some cases common decency. To fix that I think we're going to need to do 2 things. 1 - Launch the new backstage-developer list ASAP - I'll get right onto this on Monday 2 - Ask everyone to please remember to respect others on this list. I know how easy it is for debates like this to get very heated and for people to start taking pot shots at each other - please just think before you click send that what you're saying is about the debate, not about what the person you're replying to is like at understanding things. In a little under a year we've only had to moderate on-list a handful of times... I don't want to do that at all and if we can just pull together as a community I'm sure we can avoid the fate of many 'lively' lists. m ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC4B5, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TS T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Brian Butterworth Sent: Sun 8/19/2007 10:49 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest Matt, I have to say that most of the people here are actually very, very, very supportive of the BBC, and are being critical friends. If you stop listening to people who are talking sense, logic and rationally there won't be a BBC anymore. Personally, I'm eternally grateful for the BBC Micro and the TV programmes that supported it back in the 1980s, one of the reasons there are so many people in the UK who are not just computer literate (ie can log into Windows and use Internet Explorer) but can programme, network, design, implement and so forth. Being critical is a important part of the software development process - the idea is to test each and every part of a system before the great unwashed get their hands on it - as Douglas Adams (a Mac fan as it happens) A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof, is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. The 4OD service is both irrelevant (this is a BBC backstage list, it would be off-topic) and is basically the original BBC iMP anyway. Please check your original beta testing on the DNA message board if you want comments about it. Channel 4, whilst a Public Corporation like BBC, is funded by advertising not the universal licence fee and whilst comparisons may be interesting, it has always been a publisher-broadcaster and never a producer-broadcaster. Also, C4 has no international presence whatsoever, whereas the every Brit knows that the BBC means we all have automatically have friends all over the world because of Auntie. I presume it's either a fit of prissiness or a three-monkeys moment that made you write your taking your toys home with you email, but let me just remind you that you are a public servant, and we are the public you are supposed to be serving. I think I might just copy your email to the Media Guardian, if that's OK with you. I'll assume that it is if you don't reply. On 18/08/07, Matt Hardiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you know, this sort of BBC bashing is what made leave the backstage list the last time and I regret rejoining again. Aside from the lack of critique of other broadcaster's services like 4OD with similar issues, do you realise just how demoralising your constant, unhelpful rants are for staff within the BBC who are subscribed? for that reason alone, I say goodbye and wish you all well, if you want to continue rants / off topic bbc bashing, you could do no better than subscribing to uk.tech.broadcast and joining in with the DAB single topic people... I won't see your witty retort to this email... so sorry about that goodbye all - it WAS good... regards m -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy *Sent:* Sat 18/08/2007 20:41 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest On 18/08/07, Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No again. The *real* way to provide a platform-independent *service* could involve making tactical decsions along the way to get your service launched on popular platforms and follow this up with an implementation on others. That last bit gives away you have no clue what your talking about! If you have different implementations for different platforms how are you ever going to make anything neutral? It will always work only on select platforms which is never neutral. The only way
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 15/08/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that iPlayer doesn't work on (Doctorow's figure) 25% of computer users' computers is irrelevent. You can't use it at all if you haven't got a computer, it won't run on your fridge I could if you released the specs and I put a screen on the Fridge, and some kind of device to do calculation. It's not the great evil a lot of people have suggested - it's a flawed, but in Beta What the heck has Beta got to do with anything? Do you know the first thing about software? Are you suggesting the best way to write a mutli-platform program is to write it for one platform, excluding all thought of Cross-Platform from the design specs. Wait till you finish it and then port it? If you do that you will find you made bad design decisions, much code will be rendered useless and what is left will need to be untangled from what remains. No the real way to do true platform independent (and therefore platform neutral code) is to consider this from Day1. Yes you may not get the release at precisely the same time but it will be quick to port. Did the BBC do that? The BBC has failed to provide any evidence that they did so lets look at the design decisions shall we. Programming Language: C. Is C platform Independent/neutral ? NO. iPlayer is a GUI program, does C have native support (in the C language standard, either ISO or ANSI) for GUI development ? NO. Is there an accepted standard for OS interaction from C? YES POSIX, Was it used? NO. Is C portable ? Yes, provided no non standard OS calls are made and no non-portable libraries where used, they where. Libraries/Third Party Apps: Kontiki Platform Neutral: NO Uses publicly defined communications specs (e.g. an RFC): NO Provides access to code for porting to new platforms: NO WMV Platform Neutral: NO Uses publicly defined file formats (e.g. and RFC or ISO): NO Provides access to code for porting to new platforms: NO So it's not evil but it made design decisions that make it as hard as possible to achieve platform neutrality without rewriting most of the code. I asked before, no one answered so why don't you tell us now, How much of iPlayer is useless for a platform neutral version? Conversely languages like Java and Python and many many others support platform neutrality, both read byte-code to abstract even away from the CPU (Java can be natively compiled in addition to byte compiled for speed, Python was working on this I think. Java has in built support for Graphics. Python has graphics support compiled into most versions (via TK IIRC). WMV is the single least portable solution possible, the EU even charged the vendor with using that particular product to disrupt competition. Kontiki isn't platform independent either, there are much more tried and tested protocols for peer to peer distribution. Has the BBC even started it's _platform neutral iPlayer_? I can't see _any_ evidence of it what-so-ever. C needs to recompiled for every Architecture, where is the iPlayer source which is needed to make C platform neutral, I can't find it! (Weblink to it would be helpful). Or is the BBC rewriting iPlayer in a different programming language, rendering the entire C based iPlayer the biggest waste of money in recent history? If the BBC really intended to produce a cross-platform solution why did it make design decisions that indicate the exact opposite. Of course the BBC must have done costings for the project and all potential implementations. Where are these published? Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
you know, this sort of BBC bashing is what made leave the backstage list the last time and I regret rejoining again. Aside from the lack of critique of other broadcaster's services like 4OD with similar issues, do you realise just how demoralising your constant, unhelpful rants are for staff within the BBC who are subscribed? for that reason alone, I say goodbye and wish you all well, if you want to continue rants / off topic bbc bashing, you could do no better than subscribing to uk.tech.broadcast and joining in with the DAB single topic people... I won't see your witty retort to this email... so sorry about that goodbye all - it WAS good... regards m From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy Sent: Sat 18/08/2007 20:41 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest On 18/08/07, Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No again. The *real* way to provide a platform-independent *service* could involve making tactical decsions along the way to get your service launched on popular platforms and follow this up with an implementation on others. That last bit gives away you have no clue what your talking about! If you have different implementations for different platforms how are you ever going to make anything neutral? It will always work only on select platforms which is never neutral. The only way to get neutrality is to favour no particular platform. The only ways are doing this is either ensuring your application runs independent of platform specifics, or that other can generate software for any specific platform. So which is it going to be? Did you not see the order from the BBC Trust, they ordered you to develop a platform neutral solution. Option 1 would require you to scrap either your entire C based implementation or develop an abstract machine and a C compiler for such a machine and then allow such a machine to be platform neutral. Or to release the C code (to allow compilation for any platform) and remove any platform specific code that's in you C implementation. Remembering that C is _only_ portable provided it was written portably, which is why you at least needed to have considered this from day one. You would need to remove _all_ Windows API calls, which your entire graphics system no doubt calls. And also clean up problems that arise from being cross chip. Many people forget that just because a char is signed on your Windows x86 machine, it may not be on your Linux Strong ARM chipset. Option 2 would require you to release the specifications for all formats and communications protocols. This in turn would involve scraping most of the current implementation or paying Microsoft and Verisign to tell you how their technology works. So could you please explain how it is cost and time effective to produce a huge amount of code that is no rendered useless in complying with legal requirements? Fortunately, the people making these kinds of decisions at the Beeb seem to be able to see beyond the software-engineering issues which are (probably naturally) debated here. How precisely is ignoring the one thing that can't be changed (the law of mathematics) a fortunate thing? It would be significantly wiser to disregard the rules of rights holders as they are changeable, and thus must take lower priority. Why have you also refused to answer the simple questions: how are you going to achieve platform neutrality? when will you do so? and precisely how much of iPlayer does need to be scraped to do so? And why has the BBC not even confirmed it's intent to comply with orders to develop a platform neutral solution? People seem to have got it into there heads that developing for 2 platforms is like developing for one platform twice, and 3 is 3 times the work. This is completely untrue. I can develop a Java App that will run on many many OSes much faster than I can develop a C App that runs on one! (And ironically I have more experience with C). Does no one at the BBC know the term Write Once Run Anywhere? You only needed to write iPlayer once, provided you wrote it right, you chose to completely foul it up wasting enormous amounts of public money, I hope you are going to give this money back? -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Hurah, we are back to non-zero sum! On 15/08/07, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it? No, that would be stealing, I would be depriving the original owners of a can of drink, What I would do isn't stealing, no one loses anything, or are you one of those people who wilfully spreads the misconception that copyright infringement = theft? If you are, well it doesn't. One deprives someone of a tangeable object, that actually costs something to distribute, the other is data that can, and is, being distributed virtually for free. Vijay. -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 15/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it? No, that would be stealing, I would be depriving the original owners of a can of drink, What I would do isn't stealing, no one loses anything, or are you one of those people who wilfully spreads the misconception that copyright infringement = theft? If you are, well it doesn't. One deprives someone of a tangeable object, that actually costs something to distribute, the other is data that can, and is, being distributed virtually for free. My point is nothing but simple. Just because it can be done one way, doesn't mean it should. That's all. The general population have an interesting respect laws and rules - demand complete and total implementation of the ones they really like, whilst ignoring the ones they don't. You only have to look at how many people break the speed limit to see that. That's all I'm going to stay. There is no point in even debating the subject - you have your view and you're clearly right. And that's that.
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Andrew, Please don't take it the wrong way, but you seem to have a strange idea of what a discussion is about Have you not been sent to BBC re-education camp yet? By saying That's all I'm going to stay. There is no point in even debating the subject you make Auntie seem like Fox News! On 16/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it? No, that would be stealing, I would be depriving the original owners of a can of drink, What I would do isn't stealing, no one loses anything, or are you one of those people who wilfully spreads the misconception that copyright infringement = theft? If you are, well it doesn't. One deprives someone of a tangeable object, that actually costs something to distribute, the other is data that can, and is, being distributed virtually for free. My point is nothing but simple. Just because it can be done one way, doesn't mean it should. That's all. The general population have an interesting respect laws and rules - demand complete and total implementation of the ones they really like, whilst ignoring the ones they don't. You only have to look at how many people break the speed limit to see that. That's all I'm going to stay. There is no point in even debating the subject - you have your view and you're clearly right. And that's that. -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 16/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The general population have an interesting respect laws and rules - demand complete and total implementation of the ones they really like, whilst ignoring the ones they don't. You only have to look at how many people break the speed limit to see that. The point is, that laws can (indeed should) only be enforced if they have the support of the people (c.f. poll tax); that's what the phrase policing by consent means. In this context, if more people started regularly breaking the DRM on iPlayer, or just plain torrenting content that getting it legally, it suggests that there is something wrong with the law, not with the people. That's all I'm going to stay. There is no point in even debating the subject - you have your view and you're clearly right. And that's that. Why thank you.
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
I need to make a confession it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown’s interview this was not intentional! I’ve now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDe signProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html “It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/” http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959)
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
And almost the last word on the yesterday and DRM? Cory's piece in the Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/aug/14/comment.drm Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ ] ask first; [ x ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 15 August 2007 10:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest I need to make a confession - it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip - it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown’s interview - this was not intentional! I’ve now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDesignProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html “It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/” http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Utter, utter rubbish, that whole piece. Would you care to give us a slightly more reasoned critique, Richard? despite Cory's apparent predeliction for Soviet-Union-based metaphors (check out his other DRM article for the Guardian), i thought he made his argument very well. Cheers, Tim
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Yes. Utter, utter rubbish, that whole piece. R. On 8/15/07, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And almost the last word on the yesterday and DRM? Cory's piece in the Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/aug/14/comment.drm Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ ] ask first; [ x ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 15 August 2007 10:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest I need to make a confession – it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip – it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown's interview – this was not intentional! I've now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDesignProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/ http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
And there’s more... http://clesh.com/videos/view/BBCsdemo-118711.can/ From Stephen Streater who was filming at the event... m On 15/8/07 13:20, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And almost the last word on the yesterday and DRM? Cory's piece in the Guardian yesterday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/aug/14/comment.drm Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ ] private; [ ] ask first; [ x ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 15 August 2007 10:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest I need to make a confession it appears that I uploaded a non-finished version of the interview to blip it contained a fade halfway through Peter Brown’s interview this was not intentional! I’ve now uploaded the correct version and hope you can all forgive me :-) http://blip.tv/file/339619/ Or download the MP3 directly from here http://blip.tv/file/get/Matthewcashmore-backstagebbccoukPodcastDefectiveByDes ignProtest392.mp3 m On 14/8/07 18:02, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html “It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/” http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (0283959) M: 07711 913241 (072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T: 020 8008 3959 (02 83959) M: 07711 913241(072 83959) ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959)
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Certainly. From my occasional online journal... He's arguing that the BBC's use of DRM in its new iPlayer service will legitimise the spread of DRM - at least I think that's what he's thinks he's arguing. Actually, it's a reason-free rant against DRM from the Everything should be free and fluffy - we're great, big business evil, woo - MEMEME! I WANT it for nothing NOW! brigade. Mr Doctorow conveniently ignores the fact that the programme rights owners collectively insisted that the BBC implemented DRM in iPlayer, ignores the fact that the iPlayer doesn't actually stop you using the VCR that you've relied on for years to record programmes you want to keep, describes the iPlayer service as 'Ostensibly... a seven-day catch-up service' - implying that it's actually something different - but then doesn't tell us what he thinks it is, and claims (with no evidence or justification) that the BBC will be to blame if all video in future comes with DRM. The iPlayer isn't perfect, it's still in Beta, and yes, it *is* a seven day catch-up service, as is 4OD. I missed the Dawkins programme on Monday night and really wanted to see it - but had no desire to keep it for posterity. So I downloaded it from Channel 4 in about an hour (it would have taken *hours* if I'd got a Bit Torrent version) and watched it over lunch. Job done. The fact that iPlayer doesn't work on (Doctorow's figure) 25% of computer users' computers is irrelevent. You can't use it at all if you haven't got a computer, it won't run on your fridge - and as pointed out earlier, it's in Public Beta. It's planned to release versions for other OSs ASAP. It's not the great evil a lot of people have suggested - it's a flawed, but in Beta, additional way of watching time shifted TV which can be used by the vast majority of computer-using license payers - and that percentage will quickly increase . It doesn't pretend to replace anything - you can still watch and record DRM free programmes from the BBC. Cheers, Rich. On 8/15/07, Tim Cowlishaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/15/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Utter, utter rubbish, that whole piece. Would you care to give us a slightly more reasoned critique, Richard? despite Cory's apparent predeliction for Soviet-Union-based metaphors (check out his other DRM article for the Guardian), i thought he made his argument very well. Cheers, Tim -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
Well for me iPlayer will legitimise BitTorrent, as soon as it's out of Beta, I will feel no moral obligation not to download the latest Dr Who, or whatever (I do currently; I've never torrented a TV programme). After all, the BBC will then be giving content away free on demand, I'll just get it in a different, non-crippled way. If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it?
Re: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
On 15/08/07, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a drinks company is giving away a can of drink free at a railway station (which happens), does that entitle you to go into Sainsburys and take one without paying for it? No, that would be stealing, I would be depriving the original owners of a can of drink, What I would do isn't stealing, no one loses anything, or are you one of those people who wilfully spreads the misconception that copyright infringement = theft? If you are, well it doesn't. One deprives someone of a tangeable object, that actually costs something to distribute, the other is data that can, and is, being distributed virtually for free. Vijay.
[backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html ³It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959)
RE: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest
And from inside the BBC we have a reply from Ashley Highfield (head of future media and technology). We've added it to the blog post - http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html Here's a snip-it from Ashley's reply to single platform lock in We believe in Universality, I would not let our content be restricted to one platform. Beyond IP, we are also exploring how we can get versions of BBC iPlayer on to Freeview (DTT), FreeSat, and have plans to launch on cable with Virgin Media. We look closely at all possible platforms for distribution. PDAs, media centres, city centre video screens, kiosks, and so on. Some platforms require particular technologies, and some may simply not be economically viable for us to reversion for or distribute to (we must always weigh up the cost per person reached). Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [ x ] private; [ ] ask first; [ ] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: +44 (0)2080083965 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Cashmore Sent: 14 August 2007 16:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] From the front lines... Defective By Design Protest From the backstage blog http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/08/defective_by_de.html It was a very wet morning but that didn't stop around 20 people turning out to let the BBC know exactly what they thought of its use of DRM in iPlayer. We've pulled those comments together and made a special podcast which you can download from here; http://blip.tv/file/339619 There are also some photos from the even which you can see here http://flickr.com/photos/mattcashmore/sets/72157601436583881/ and here http://flickr.com/photos/cubicgarden/sets/72157601430492360/ and some here http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/ http://flickr.com/groups/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pool/² ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959)
