Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On Fri Jul 4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote: ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars ** Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, on the departure of Bill Gates. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm Meh, doesn’t really say anything new. It’s good that free software is getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a little hypocritical. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
Fred Phillips wrote: On Fri Jul 4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote: ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars ** Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, on the departure of Bill Gates. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm Meh, doesn’t really say anything new. It’s good that free software is getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a little hypocritical. True but look at the license for the article - how many articles does the BBC News produce under a CC license? David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which readers are not free to share and modify? Just a thought. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Reynolds-FMT Sent: 04 July 2008 11:51 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars Hadn't noticed the CC licence - now that is good -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Greaves Sent: 04 July 2008 10:29 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars Fred Phillips wrote: On Fri Jul 4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote: ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars ** Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, on the departure of Bill Gates. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm Meh, doesn't really say anything new. It's good that free software is getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a little hypocritical. True but look at the license for the article - how many articles does the BBC News produce under a CC license? David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On 4 Jul 2008, at 12:24, Gareth Davis wrote: Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which readers are not free to share and modify? This is the man who objects to having vegetarians in a dinner group because apparently it restricts his freedom to choose food. So no I don't find it strange. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
I thought the CC licence at the bottom allowed this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fearghas McKay Sent: 04 July 2008 12:49 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars On 4 Jul 2008, at 12:24, Gareth Davis wrote: Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which readers are not free to share and modify? This is the man who objects to having vegetarians in a dinner group because apparently it restricts his freedom to choose food. So no I don't find it strange. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which readers are not free to share and modify? If he's using his standard licence then you are free to copy it verbatim and share it. Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different. I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying to explain that his position is coherent. - Rob.
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 12:24:24PM +0100, Gareth Davis wrote: Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which readers are not free to share and modify? I can see what you're getting at but they are entirely different beasts. An article (or even many hundreds of articles) isn't running inside your computer preventing you from (for example) playing back a movie you downloaded 32 days ago. It's an inert piece of text. I've seen RMS give a talk at FOSDEM a few years ago where he covered his opinions on copyright and how there should be different rules for software, art, articles and so on. I'm sure that there's probably a copy online somewhere. (besides the fact that there is a cc license on that article of course) Cheers, Al. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
It uses CC-ND which only allows sharing with attribution, it does not allow commercial reuse or you to 'alter, transform or build upon this work' http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.5/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Reynolds-FMT Sent: 04 July 2008 12:58 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars I thought the CC licence at the bottom allowed this. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It uses CC-ND which only allows sharing with attribution, it does not allow commercial reuse or you to 'alter, transform or build upon this work' ND does allow commercial use. NC-ND would prevent commercial use. He doesn't mention BY or the version. He should. Only the old 1.0 CC licences had a standalone ND. ND is equivalent to the old one-line verbatim distribution licence he used to use, and his reasons for doing so have to do with the difference between source code and works of opinion. - Rob.
RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different. I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying to explain that his position is coherent. Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software. It just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the article. I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been mentioned and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On 04 July 2008 at 13:32 , Rob Mayers wrote: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It uses CC-ND which only allows sharing with attribution, it does not allow commercial reuse or you to 'alter, transform or build upon this work' ND does allow commercial use. NC-ND would prevent commercial use. He doesn't mention BY or the version. He should. Only the old 1.0 CC licences had a standalone ND. ND is equivalent to the old one-line verbatim distribution licence he used to use, and his reasons for doing so have to do with the difference between source code and works of opinion. - Rob. I was just following the CC link posted in the news article, it states no commercial use. Has the wrong version been linked? -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
The ND licence is restrictive compared to copyleft but it is less restrictive than normal copyright, because it allows commercial copying of the work. That said I do see where you're coming from, and I personally would much rather Stallman just copylefted his writings. BY-SA and moral rights should prevent misattribution of derivatives. - Rob. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different. I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying to explain that his position is coherent. Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software. It just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the article. I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been mentioned and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms. -- *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist **
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was just following the CC link posted in the news article, it states no commercial use. Has the wrong version been linked? Yes, it looks like it. Is that an error from the author or the publisher? Just so I know who to email. :-) - Rob.
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
I'm not sure I understand why one should have more freedom to twist Mr. Stallman's words than the protection under copyright to reuse and change traditional BBC articles. Mr. Stallman can be demanding (I have interviewed him twice, a daunting experience) but I think his message is very important. For my part I'm very pleased the BBC has seen fit to publish that commentary. Sean. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different. I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying to explain that his position is coherent. Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software. It just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the article. I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been mentioned and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On 4 jul 2008, at 15.32, Rob Myers wrote: Just an observation but why do all these damn CC licence variants need to be so complex. No wonder people can make mistakes with them.. Darren ¦ D P Ingram ¦ Ab Ingram Oy ¦ ¦ darren at ingram.fi ¦ www.ingram.fi ¦ ¦ ¦ +358 6 781 0275 (FIN) ¦ +46 8 5511 4995 (SWE) ¦ +44 203 014 3839 (UK) ¦ ¦ extn 8001 ¦
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
I agree that twisting people's words isn't good but the copyleft licences such as BY-SA or the FDL do prevent mis-attribution of modified versions to the original author. - Rob. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Sean DALY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure I understand why one should have more freedom to twist Mr. Stallman's words than the protection under copyright to reuse and change traditional BBC articles. Mr. Stallman can be demanding (I have interviewed him twice, a daunting experience) but I think his message is very important. For my part I'm very pleased the BBC has seen fit to publish that commentary. Sean. On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different. I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying to explain that his position is coherent. Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software. It just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the article. I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been mentioned and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
2008/7/4 Fearghas McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 4 Jul 2008, at 12:24, Gareth Davis wrote: Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which readers are not free to share and modify? This is the man who objects to having vegetarians in a dinner group because apparently it restricts his freedom to choose food. So no I don't find it strange. I am at the http://2008.rmll.info and sat next to Richard, and he says that this is not true. (I hope you are just being fooled by a nasty rumour, rather than making this stuff up.) Generally I feel the list would be a lot better without all the ad hominem nonsense. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
On 4 Jul 2008, at 17:41, Dave Crossland wrote: I am at the http://2008.rmll.info and sat next to Richard, and he says that this is not true. (I hope you are just being fooled by a nasty rumour, rather than making this stuff up.) He said it to me. He was sitting next to me. It was directed at me. Generally I feel the list would be a lot better without all the ad hominem nonsense. Well stop putting your words in our mouths. I will now bow out of this conversation. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
