Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 02/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 2, 2008 12:07 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 01/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To me, this ... says that people shoudn't push the freedom idea onto others in a frothing-at-the-mouth way - not that people shouldn't care about freedom, nor that it's not a valid point. Should people care about software freedom? Is the issue of software freedom a valid one? I think you're being deliberately argumentative now. I'm sorry if I've come across that way; I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on those 2 issues, since you brought them up, and your opinion on them isn't clear to me. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
And sure enough, Martin hits the nail on the head. (And, for the benefit of Dave, no, he's not confusing an ethical position with a religious one - you obviously missed the bit that says with a few word changes. Perhaps parts of your monitor are obscured with froth?) RIch. On 12/30/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29/12/2007, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An excellent quote which I will endeavour to use in 2008 every time the zealots start drowning out the conversation. though I suspect you will be met with similar content to almost the first reaction to that article: It's sad to see that Linus Torvalds, one of the leading figures in the Free Software movement, doesn't really care for freedom. Here's the full comment: It's sad to see that Linus Torvalds, one of the leading figures in the Free Software movement, doesn't really care for freedom. And it's even sadder that he resorts to insults, saying that those who *do* care about freedom are frothing-at-the-mouth. I think it's also dishonest for Linus to see only the people who like to have control over their computers as ideological. Linus' own view that users should *not* have control over their computers is just as ideological, and Linus is actively pushing his own ideology on other people. Personally I disagree with Linus. I find that freedom means control over your own computer and I believe that all computer users have a right to be free and in control. I think the point about proprietary restrictions are conscionable if the software has some convenient feature being an ideology that Torvalds pushes is interesting. it's also applicable, with a few word changes, to religion too Are you confusing an ethical position with a religious one? --
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On Dec 30, 2007 2:37 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's the full comment: It's sad to see that Linus Torvalds, one of the leading figures in the Free Software movement, doesn't really care for freedom. And it's even sadder that he resorts to insults, saying that those who *do* care about freedom are frothing-at-the-mouth. I suspect this poster is conflating two things: ideology, and the way it's promoted. This sentence of Linus's quote: I dislike the frothing-at-the-mouth ideology (to me, ideology should be something personal, not something you push on other people) ... is quite valid. To me, this chapter of the revered sayings of Linus says that people shoudn't push the freedom idea onto others in a frothing-at-the-mouth way - not that people shouldn't care about freedom, nor that it's not a valid point. But then, you can read his scriptures in a number of different ways... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 01/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This ... ... ideology should be something personal, not something you push on other people ... is quite valid. To me, this ... says that people shoudn't push the freedom idea onto others in a frothing-at-the-mouth way - not that people shouldn't care about freedom, nor that it's not a valid point. Should people care about software freedom? Is the issue of software freedom a valid one? -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On Jan 2, 2008 12:07 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 01/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To me, this ... says that people shoudn't push the freedom idea onto others in a frothing-at-the-mouth way - not that people shouldn't care about freedom, nor that it's not a valid point. Should people care about software freedom? Is the issue of software freedom a valid one? I think you're being deliberately argumentative now. I shall desist from feeding the troll further. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 29/12/2007, Martin Belam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An excellent quote which I will endeavour to use in 2008 every time the zealots start drowning out the conversation. though I suspect you will be met with similar content to almost the first reaction to that article: It's sad to see that Linus Torvalds, one of the leading figures in the Free Software movement, doesn't really care for freedom. Here's the full comment: It's sad to see that Linus Torvalds, one of the leading figures in the Free Software movement, doesn't really care for freedom. And it's even sadder that he resorts to insults, saying that those who *do* care about freedom are frothing-at-the-mouth. I think it's also dishonest for Linus to see only the people who like to have control over their computers as ideological. Linus' own view that users should *not* have control over their computers is just as ideological, and Linus is actively pushing his own ideology on other people. Personally I disagree with Linus. I find that freedom means control over your own computer and I believe that all computer users have a right to be free and in control. I think the point about proprietary restrictions are conscionable if the software has some convenient feature being an ideology that Torvalds pushes is interesting. it's also applicable, with a few word changes, to religion too Are you confusing an ethical position with a religious one? -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
I dislike the frothing-at-the-mouth ideology (to me, ideology should be something personal, not something you push on other people) and I think it's much more interesting to see how Open Source actually generates a better process for doing complex technology, than push the freedom angle and push an ideology. The way I read this in the context of others things that Linus has said is that the freedoms come out of the open source way of workings as almost a side effect so we don't need to worry about freedoms as the best software will be the software with the least restrictions on it, and thus enhancing freedoms. I agree that the best software is usually the freedom software, but I don't believe that we don't need to care about this. The insidious ways that freedom can be eroded are a constant threat and without someone making a noise about these issues we will wake up one day and find them all gone. So it matters that the BBC is still using encumbered formats for its listen again service, it matters that they are doing the same with the iPlayer. There is progress in that the real media formats have been reverse engineered, and the flash formats are slowly being reversed. So soon we will have open software to play these formats. -- Stuart - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
And more importantly, why did you just send a suspicious file in you email? What are you doing sending .dat files anyway? For the record, Google Mail (or Gmail, if you're in the US) automatically threads every message in Backstage correctly; you can also use its excellent filters to sort mails into a particular folder; and you can hit the m button, which mutes any conversation, whenever the conversation descends into DRM (rights) and open source licences. Highly recommended - it's what I use all the time. The thing that reminded me to have a quick read through Backstage was this interesting quote from Linus Torvalds, held within http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/12/linus-torvalds.html ... I dislike the frothing-at-the-mouth ideology (to me, ideology should be something personal, not something you push on other people) and I think it's much more interesting to see how Open Source actually generates a better process for doing complex technology, than push the freedom angle and push an ideology. An excellent quote which I will endeavour to use in 2008 every time the zealots start drowning out the conversation. (Curiously, it's also applicable, with a few word changes, to religion too). //j - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
An excellent quote which I will endeavour to use in 2008 every time the zealots start drowning out the conversation. though I suspect you will be met with similar content to almost the first reaction to that article: It's sad to see that Linus Torvalds, one of the leading figures in the Free Software movement, doesn't really care for freedom. Damn him, and his freedom to express an opinion... m - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
And more importantly, why did you just send a suspicious file in you email? What are you doing sending .dat files anyway? Andy Okay - I'm getting quietly tired of yet more BBC people sending .dat files as attachments in their emails and you keeping quietly schtum! Either correct everybody or correct no one. Please be consistent or consider your position! -- Michael Walsh Mobile: +44-(0)771-2524200 Mobile: +353-(0)85-1278212 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.digitalrightsmanifesto.com Blog: http://digitalrightsmanifesto.wordpress.com
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
I'm sorry you feel that way. Outlook 2003 is standard issue on most BBC desktops and laptops, and you know how weird outlook can be as default :) I spend most of my time using Thunderbird ;) Oh quick question for everyone - should I switch over to Evolution? Michael Walsh wrote: And more importantly, why did you just send a suspicious file in you email? What are you doing sending .dat files anyway? Andy Okay - I'm getting quietly tired of yet more BBC people sending .dat files as attachments in their emails and you keeping quietly schtum! Either correct everybody or correct no one. Please be consistent or consider your position! -- Michael Walsh Mobile: +44-(0)771-2524200 Mobile: +353-(0)85-1278212 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.digitalrightsmanifesto.com Blog: http://digitalrightsmanifesto.wordpress.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
my apologies again will have to stay off the backstage list IT helpdesk here says there's no problem but others seem to think there's something wrong with my emails From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood Sent: 27 November 2007 22:15 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service And that's already been pointed out... Sorry! :-) Cheers, Rich. On 11/27/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um - that wasn't me. My line was: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. That was the end of my contribution on this. You've mistaken someone else's quote for me. No problem, but just putting the record straight. :-) Cheers, Rich. On 11/27/07, Nick Reynolds-AMi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really need to be careful with your language Richard BBC management did not refuse to comply with the Trust's previous ruling snip
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. DRM is bad. Freedom is good. ;) Best, -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/nov/27/bbc.itv?gusrc=rssfeed=technology No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. This was the original plan, wasn't it? It also makes me think that someone somewhere (a certain Scott with the initials GB) has said that there won't be another licence fee after the current one runs out I can only be GB - I suspect he lent on Tessa Shit For Brains* Jowell in the past. * (c) Mark Thompson Cheers, R. (Waits for this news to descend into DRM-Bad, Free-Good!! ranting...) -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
why would this mean that there's no licence fee next time? the press release is sketchy but some of the content on kangaroo will be licence fee content (i.e. iPlayer content) - how will this content be paid for without a licence fee? i will bet anyone on this mailing list a fiver that in 2026 there will still be something called the BBC and it will still be paid for by a licence fee From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Brian Butterworth Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 12:53 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service On 27/11/2007, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/nov/27/bbc.itv?gusrc=rssfeed=technology No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. This was the original plan, wasn't it? It also makes me think that someone somewhere (a certain Scott with the initials GB) has said that there won't be another licence fee after the current one runs out I can only be GB - I suspect he lent on Tessa Shit For Brains* Jowell in the past. * (c) Mark Thompson Cheers, R. (Waits for this news to descend into DRM-Bad, Free-Good!! ranting...) -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: i will bet anyone on this mailing list a fiver that in 2026 there will still be something called the BBC and it will still be paid for by a licence fee I will bet you the Standard Long-Term Economical Unit of Comparison (one Mars bar) that, in 2026, there will not be a physical object called 'a fiver'. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
i will take that bet Frank physical money will still exist in 2026 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Frank Wales Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 2:07 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: i will bet anyone on this mailing list a fiver that in 2026 there will still be something called the BBC and it will still be paid for by a licence fee I will bet you the Standard Long-Term Economical Unit of Comparison (one Mars bar) that, in 2026, there will not be a physical object called 'a fiver'. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. How can this possible go live in a few months? (2008 starts in a few weeks if I am not much mistaken). The trust haven't even approved it. And the BBC has refused to comply with it's previous ruling. Need I remind you the BBC Trust said you must be Platform Neutral? So will Kangaroo* be Platform Neutral? If not it looks unlikely the trust will sign off on it given their previous comments about the iPlayer (was there ever a huger waste of money? Except maybe the Dome). Is it going to be standards based (only way to actually be platform neutral as some platform consist mainly of custom designed hardware which need to know the precise operating details to get high performance.)? Are we going to be allowed to improve it, bug fix it, security scan it, verify it's not a trojan etc.? Nice to see a complete lack of detail though, now where did I put my document on making an FOI request, (technically a written request here would most likely count, after all it's written, has a name and has an address.) (Waits for this news to descend into DRM-Bad, Free-Good!! ranting...) I see no mention of DRM in either article, neither do I see the term Digital Rights Management. Helpfully the BBC have made sure to hide every single even slightly technical detail from view. What precisely are you hiding? The only vaguely technical detail appears to be that it is designed to work over broadband, wow I couldn't have guessed that! What platforms are we talking about? Is it going to be truly platform neutral or is the BBC going to have to rewrite the old iPlayer to comply with your regulator (or as appears to be the intended plan refuse to comply with the regulator) What protocols and formats will be used? Will it be as awfully as 4OD and iPlayer, using up peoples bandwidth with no control what-so-ever (BitTorrent clients have supported throttling for years)? Odd how the BBC can have such a huge development time, such a huge spending and still end up with a vastly inferior product when compared to free alternatives. Will it permit user written extensions? Will it support third party access via Open API's? Andy * Is the name Kangaroo meant to be some joke about bouncing back after the disaster that was the first offerings? -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
It would be cool if it were in DivX format. I'm quite liking the services at the moment that allow you the option of playing on demand, or download the lot and 'save as'. Seems to change everyones way of watching 'tv' as soon as they've used it. Ian http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/nov/27/bbc.itv?gusrc=rssfeed=technology No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. Cheers, R. (Waits for this news to descend into DRM-Bad, Free-Good!! ranting...) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: i will take that bet Frank physical money will still exist in 2026 For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about fivers in general circulation, not in the hands of collectors, drug dealers and suchlike. If you're still up for it, I'm willing to gamble a Mars bar over it, since I have more confidence they'll be around. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Maybe you should move this over to http://www.longbets.org/ :) Mark. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Wales Sent: 27 November 2007 15:08 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: i will take that bet Frank physical money will still exist in 2026 For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about fivers in general circulation, not in the hands of collectors, drug dealers and suchlike. If you're still up for it, I'm willing to gamble a Mars bar over it, since I have more confidence they'll be around. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/organgrinder/2007/11/kangaroo_a_giant_leap_for_tele.html
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Robert Andrews thinks BBC Worldwide is in it for pay-per-view outside the UK: http://www.paidcontent.co.uk/entry/419-official-broadcasters-join-for-kangaroo-commercial-vod-platform/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Brian Butterworth wrote: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/organgrinder/2007/11/kangaroo_a_giant_leap_for_tele.html That second commenter seems rather familiar... :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about fivers in general circulation, not in the hands of collectors, drug dealers and suchlike. If you're still up for it, I'm willing to gamble a Mars bar over it, since I have more confidence they'll be around. Sheesh, and I was flamed for being OT. ;) -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Ashley Highfield has written a blog post explaining how kangaroo complements iPlayer here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2007/11/iplayer_and_kangaroo_1.ht ml it is much better for the BBC, ITV and C4 to have a say in a distribution service rather than leave it just to the likes of Joost or Babelgum to own the relationship with our audiences after the public service window. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Jolly Sent: 27 November 2007 15:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service Brian Butterworth wrote: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/organgrinder/2007/11/kangaroo_a_giant_leap _for_tele.html That second commenter seems rather familiar... :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: You really need to be careful with your language Richard That was Andy, not Richard. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 15:29:39 Noah Slater wrote: Sheesh, and I was flamed for being OT. :-) People tend to appear to prefer variety in their off topic stuff. Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 15:07:48 Frank Wales wrote: If you're still up for it, I'm willing to gamble a Mars bar over it, since I have more confidence they'll be around. Loaf of bread is a better longer term currency IMO. After all, Mars bars today ain't what they used to be :-D Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Andy wrote: Nice to see a complete lack of detail though, now where did I put my document on making an FOI request, (technically a written request here would most likely count, after all it's written, has a name and has an address.) IMO it might not count if it was unclear as to whether you were addressing a specific BBC member of staff or the list as a whole. But IANAL etc. :-) TBH I think most of the BBC employees here would take it as a kindness if you just emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED] S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
sorry - i find this mailing list thing a bit awkward to navigate From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Steve Jolly Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 6:44 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: You really need to be careful with your language Richard That was Andy, not Richard. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
You really need to be careful with your language Richard BBC management did not refuse to comply with the Trust's previous ruling Both management and the Trust have agreed that the Player will be platform neutral (indeed the management's position has always been that the Player will be platform neutral) - the only question is how and when Kangaroo is a commercial proposition from BBC Worldwide - and these usually don't take as long to approve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 2:29 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service On 27/11/2007, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. How can this possible go live in a few months? (2008 starts in a few weeks if I am not much mistaken). The trust haven't even approved it. And the BBC has refused to comply with it's previous ruling. Need I remind you the BBC Trust said you must be Platform Neutral? So will Kangaroo* be Platform Neutral? If not it looks unlikely the trust will sign off on it given their previous comments about the iPlayer (was there ever a huger waste of money? Except maybe the Dome). Is it going to be standards based (only way to actually be platform neutral as some platform consist mainly of custom designed hardware which need to know the precise operating details to get high performance.)? Are we going to be allowed to improve it, bug fix it, security scan it, verify it's not a trojan etc.? Nice to see a complete lack of detail though, now where did I put my document on making an FOI request, (technically a written request here would most likely count, after all it's written, has a name and has an address.) (Waits for this news to descend into DRM-Bad, Free-Good!! ranting...) I see no mention of DRM in either article, neither do I see the term Digital Rights Management. Helpfully the BBC have made sure to hide every single even slightly technical detail from view. What precisely are you hiding? The only vaguely technical detail appears to be that it is designed to work over broadband, wow I couldn't have guessed that! What platforms are we talking about? Is it going to be truly platform neutral or is the BBC going to have to rewrite the old iPlayer to comply with your regulator (or as appears to be the intended plan refuse to comply with the regulator) What protocols and formats will be used? Will it be as awfully as 4OD and iPlayer, using up peoples bandwidth with no control what-so-ever (BitTorrent clients have supported throttling for years)? Odd how the BBC can have such a huge development time, such a huge spending and still end up with a vastly inferior product when compared to free alternatives. Will it permit user written extensions? Will it support third party access via Open API's? Andy * Is the name Kangaroo meant to be some joke about bouncing back after the disaster that was the first offerings? -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People tend to appear to prefer variety in their off topic stuff. You're implication is bogus. Like Dave has said before me, I don't consider free culture, ethics or politics to be off-topic for this list - quite the reverse. There is even a list dedicated to people who DO NOT WANT to talk about all of this stuff. But let's not get into this again... -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Nick Reynolds-AMi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BBC management did not refuse to comply with the Trust's previous ruling Sorry. I seem to have a little problem finding the Platform Neutral versions of iPlayer. Could you perhaps provide a URL it would make it much easier to find. And now I quote from the BBC themselves: There may always be a small percentage that one can not also support. The cost of reaching those people is not the best use of the license fee. Mr Highfield from: http://blip.tv/file/get/Cubicgarden-backstagebbccoukAshleyHighfieldOnIPlayer648.ogg (Transcript may not be 100% accurate, transcribing in real time is tricky, and the quality isn't perfect.) So stating there are some platforms that will not be supported indicates platform neutral how? The ruling was to provide platform neutrality as soon as practically possible (correct me if that's not correct.) How long does it take to upload your protocol and format specifications? That certainly would be platform neutral. And where is iPlayer's source code? How on earth do you intend to make a binary platform neutral, isn't the iPlayer binary tied to the x86 platform? Platform Neutral means you can't chose a platform and only support that one. The only real question is time frame, how long does it take to upload the source code (which is the only way to get it neutral of the CPU architecture apart from releasing specifications)? Hmm, let me do some rough maths. Assuming a 1Mbps upload (the BBC almost certainly has that at least internally to the servers) and a maximum source code size of 1 gig (that is many times large than the entire Linux kernel source) you get: 1 * 2^30 / 1 * 10^6 ~= 1074 seconds. thats under 20 minutes. Even if I am a factor of one thousand out that still only takes 2 weeks. iPlayer was launched several months ago and the BBC has not done something that would make iPlayer more neutral despite it taking less than 20 minutes. How is that in any way complying with the Trusts request to make iPlayer cross platform in a reasonable time frame? Both management and the Trust have agreed that the Player will be platform neutral (indeed the management's position has always been that the Player will be platform neutral) - the only question is how and when The above quote would indicate otherwise. You do know what the word neutral means right? If it was always meant to be platform neutral then how did you generate the least portable system possible? Kangaroo is a commercial proposition from BBC Worldwide - and these usually don't take as long to approve Won't the trust find it a little odd that one part of the BBC spent millions producing a Video On Demand Client and now another part wants to spend even more money on producing another client that's not compatible? Why didn't you just do it correctly first time around? And seems the BBC claims it has to obey copyright law, perhaps you would care to explain why you copied my entire email and claimed it was written by someone else? And more importantly, why did you just send a suspicious file in you email? What are you doing sending .dat files anyway? Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Thank you Andy! Fantastic email, much lulz were had. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman look-at-me.dat Description: MPEG movie
RE: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
i have no idea what a dat file is so I wouldn't know how to send one anyway so it must have been someone else my apologies for getting the name wrong - i find this mailing list system a bit difficult to navigate of course there isn't a platform neutral Player... yet but you are implying a confrontation between Trust and managment which doesn't actually exist in the BBC management's original submission with the Player it said it would eventually be platform neutral - as soon as practically possible is about right - the Trust are revieiwng this every six months it's the practicalities which are rather difficult! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 7:42 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service On 27/11/2007, Nick Reynolds-AMi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BBC management did not refuse to comply with the Trust's previous ruling Sorry. I seem to have a little problem finding the Platform Neutral versions of iPlayer. Could you perhaps provide a URL it would make it much easier to find. And now I quote from the BBC themselves: There may always be a small percentage that one can not also support. The cost of reaching those people is not the best use of the license fee. Mr Highfield from: http://blip.tv/file/get/Cubicgarden-backstagebbccoukAshleyHighfieldOnIPlayer648.ogg (Transcript may not be 100% accurate, transcribing in real time is tricky, and the quality isn't perfect.) So stating there are some platforms that will not be supported indicates platform neutral how? The ruling was to provide platform neutrality as soon as practically possible (correct me if that's not correct.) How long does it take to upload your protocol and format specifications? That certainly would be platform neutral. And where is iPlayer's source code? How on earth do you intend to make a binary platform neutral, isn't the iPlayer binary tied to the x86 platform? Platform Neutral means you can't chose a platform and only support that one. The only real question is time frame, how long does it take to upload the source code (which is the only way to get it neutral of the CPU architecture apart from releasing specifications)? Hmm, let me do some rough maths. Assuming a 1Mbps upload (the BBC almost certainly has that at least internally to the servers) and a maximum source code size of 1 gig (that is many times large than the entire Linux kernel source) you get: 1 * 2^30 / 1 * 10^6 ~= 1074 seconds. thats under 20 minutes. Even if I am a factor of one thousand out that still only takes 2 weeks. iPlayer was launched several months ago and the BBC has not done something that would make iPlayer more neutral despite it taking less than 20 minutes. How is that in any way complying with the Trusts request to make iPlayer cross platform in a reasonable time frame? Both management and the Trust have agreed that the Player will be platform neutral (indeed the management's position has always been that the Player will be platform neutral) - the only question is how and when The above quote would indicate otherwise. You do know what the word neutral means right? If it was always meant to be platform neutral then how did you generate the least portable system possible? Kangaroo is a commercial proposition from BBC Worldwide - and these usually don't take as long to approve Won't the trust find it a little odd that one part of the BBC spent millions producing a Video On Demand Client and now another part wants to spend even more money on producing another client that's not compatible? Why didn't you just do it correctly first time around? And seems the BBC claims it has to obey copyright law, perhaps you would care to explain why you copied my entire email and claimed it was written by someone else? And more importantly, why did you just send a suspicious file in you email? What are you doing sending .dat files anyway? Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Noah Slater wrote: Sheesh, and I was flamed for being OT. :-) Then I wrote: People tend to appear to prefer variety in their off topic stuff. Then Noah Slater wrote: You're implication is bogus. I wasn't implying anything. You implied others view some of your posts as off topic, and I then made what was intended as a lighthearted comment. So much for humour ... Michael. -- [ The on-topic stuff (from my perspective) was shunted off to the developer list, so whatever views I have on on/off topic aren't even in play here :-) Yes, I *do* find some things boring and repetitive, and if stays boring and repetitive I'll unsubscribe again and probably check back again in a few months time and see if things have improved. That's not the same as being on or off topic - it's more about relevance. If I've heard the same arguments 100 times over the past 10 years, its unlikely to change my opinion and after the first 10 or 20 times the conversation ceases to be relevant to me. Of course you'd rightly say it doesn't have to be relevant to you, which is fine and correct. I'd like backstage to be relevant to me because the list supports a concept of use our stuff to make your stuff, and I'm one of the sources of our stuff. However, I am not the world. It's just personal opinion and nowhere near official opinion. If it hasn't changed to become relevant after that time (or preferably without having to unsubscribe because of irrelevance), then to me an individual, as a developer on my own time and as a developer of stuff the BBC has released as opensource/free software and advocated publicly (and officially with approval) the use, improvement and creation of open source software (all for practical, not dogmatic reasons), the list becomes pointless. But then I am not the world - there's plenty of other places I can go read stuff and discuss stuff. Wouldn't be a big deal, just a pity ] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27/11/2007, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People tend to appear to prefer variety in their off topic stuff. You're implication is bogus. Like Dave has said before me, I don't consider free culture, ethics or politics to be off-topic for this list - quite the reverse. There is even a list dedicated to people who DO NOT WANT to talk about all of this stuff. Can we stick this information in the generic footer included with each message? But let's not get into this again... -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: i have no idea what a dat file is so I wouldn't know how to send one anyway so it must have been someone else Nick - I think you're using Outlook as your email client. Have you got it configured to send Rich Text emails by default? I believe that can lead to every email you send being given a winmail.dat file attachment that contains the Microsoft-specific rich text version of the email. See http://www.ericphelps.com/tnef/ for some details. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
And that's already been pointed out... Sorry! :-) Cheers, Rich. On 11/27/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um - that wasn't me. My line was: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. That was the end of my contribution on this. You've mistaken someone else's quote for me. No problem, but just putting the record straight. :-) Cheers, Rich. On 11/27/07, Nick Reynolds-AMi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really need to be careful with your language Richard BBC management did not refuse to comply with the Trust's previous ruling snip
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Um - that wasn't me. My line was: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. That was the end of my contribution on this. You've mistaken someone else's quote for me. No problem, but just putting the record straight. :-) Cheers, Rich. On 11/27/07, Nick Reynolds-AMi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really need to be careful with your language Richard BBC management did not refuse to comply with the Trust's previous ruling Both management and the Trust have agreed that the Player will be platform neutral (indeed the management's position has always been that the Player will be platform neutral) - the only question is how and when Kangaroo is a commercial proposition from BBC Worldwide - and these usually don't take as long to approve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy Sent: Tue 11/27/2007 2:29 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service On 27/11/2007, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No real technical details, more a re-hashed press release, but an interesting idea nontheless. How can this possible go live in a few months? (2008 starts in a few weeks if I am not much mistaken). The trust haven't even approved it. And the BBC has refused to comply with it's previous ruling. Need I remind you the BBC Trust said you must be Platform Neutral? So will Kangaroo* be Platform Neutral? If not it looks unlikely the trust will sign off on it given their previous comments about the iPlayer (was there ever a huger waste of money? Except maybe the Dome). Is it going to be standards based (only way to actually be platform neutral as some platform consist mainly of custom designed hardware which need to know the precise operating details to get high performance.)? Are we going to be allowed to improve it, bug fix it, security scan it, verify it's not a trojan etc.? Nice to see a complete lack of detail though, now where did I put my document on making an FOI request, (technically a written request here would most likely count, after all it's written, has a name and has an address.) (Waits for this news to descend into DRM-Bad, Free-Good!! ranting...) I see no mention of DRM in either article, neither do I see the term Digital Rights Management. Helpfully the BBC have made sure to hide every single even slightly technical detail from view. What precisely are you hiding? The only vaguely technical detail appears to be that it is designed to work over broadband, wow I couldn't have guessed that! What platforms are we talking about? Is it going to be truly platform neutral or is the BBC going to have to rewrite the old iPlayer to comply with your regulator (or as appears to be the intended plan refuse to comply with the regulator) What protocols and formats will be used? Will it be as awfully as 4OD and iPlayer, using up peoples bandwidth with no control what-so-ever (BitTorrent clients have supported throttling for years)? Odd how the BBC can have such a huge development time, such a huge spending and still end up with a vastly inferior product when compared to free alternatives. Will it permit user written extensions? Will it support third party access via Open API's? Andy * Is the name Kangaroo meant to be some joke about bouncing back after the disaster that was the first offerings? -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
Another : http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7107677 Not very accurate of course. BSkyB is really only a subscription-and-sport company these days. Hardly anyone watches the Movie channels anymore (1.5%in total), Sky One has no viewers ( 1.2%), only Sky Sports have viewers left (~3%). Live sport (and news) is the only thing that fits well with broadcast-style distribution. http://ukfree.tv/barb/Total_Sky_Movies.png http://ukfree.tv/barb/Total_Sky_Sports.png http://ukfree.tv/barb/Sky_One.png But what of Auntie? Is there now no escape from a wholesale privatization of the BBC or will there remain a cultural organization?
Re: [backstage] Broadcasters to launch joint VoD service
On 27/11/2007, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't implying anything. You implied others view some of your posts as off topic, and I then made what was intended as a lighthearted comment. Yeah, of course, you're totally correct. Apologies. :) -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
