RE: Past Revelations
Those involved in this discussion may enjoy Gabriel Fackre's defense of the exclusivity and finality of Christianity: Gabriel Fackre, Claiming Jesus as Savior in a Religiously Plural World, Journal for Christian Theological Research 8 (2003) 1-17 (Andover Newton Theological School) http://home.apu.edu/~CTRF/articles/2003_articles/Fackre.pdf Cheers, Steve Cooney -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilberto Simpson Sent: Saturday, 8 January 2005 9:20 p.m. To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: Past Revelations On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 21:26:44 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Past Revelations
IMO, Baha'i soteriology is both particularist and inclusivist. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admit the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into the New Testament.Mark, Doesn't this also fit, from Baha'u'llah? "He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire! " Gleaning 264 Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Past Revelations
Mark: IMO, Baha'i soteriology is both particularist and inclusivist. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admit the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into the New Testament.John: Have you seen anyonedo it from Islamic primary sources. I'd say itwould beeasier because it is wholly authentic, and much longer. Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! What will yours do? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
Dear Gilberto in http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43297.html I wrote with great love, humility and in a spirit of dialogue Gilberto Simpson Point 3] And in the Quran it says: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38) [khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes certainly dear brother. But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews said that the Holy Quran affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with the Torah because the Quran affirms it was all there before. 006.154 YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, COMPLETE for him who would do good, AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS, A GUIDANCE AND A MERCY, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. SHAKIR: Again, WE GAVE THE BOOK TO MUSA TO COMPLETE (OUR BLESSINGS) ON HIM WHO WOULD DO GOOD (TO OTHERS), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord. 154. Thumma atayna Moosa alkitaba tamaman AAala allathee ahsana watafseelan likulli shay-in wahudan warahmatan So the Text of the Quran says the Book of Moses was TAMAAM complete [nothing left out]. It repeats again in the same verse : The Book of Moses was TAFSEELAN LIKULLI SHAIN = AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete. and so on Remember dearest I am not arguing. I am just offering what I think are true insights AND you dear Gilberto wrote: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43305.html One issue which should be raised however, is that the Torah was arevelation given to Moses. But if you actually study the history ofthe text and modern Biblical scholarship, virtually no Biblicalscholar actually believes that the current first five books of theBible (the Pentateuch) was entirely written by Moses (as). The mostwidely accepted understanding is something called the documentaryhypothesis. Where scholars have traced the contributions of 4different authors and styles in the book. And there are indicationsthat these 4 source materials weren't combined until several centuriesafter Moses.So I'm sure that at least part of the original Torah of Moses iscontained in the Pentateuch BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THE PENTETEUCH IS THE SAME AS THE TORAH.Gilberto The Torah question is getting a bit advanced at this stage and so I ask two of my beloved friends who have come to the Bahai Faith from a Christian background and who have doctorates and great experience to help us on these matters. Both Michael and Daniel have also studied the Book of Certitude in great depth. If it is their wish and happiness they will help us. I have blind copied this request to them. This list is open and both of these scholars have great wisdom and ability. I have also ccd this to Gary another friend who has studied the Bible. Humbly khazeh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Authentic Holy Qur'an Majid
Gilberto, Khazeh, Mark, Susan, et al., How long after the passing of the Prophet was the Authentic Holy Qur'an compiled? Thanks. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Past Revelations
Hi, John, At 09:22 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: Mark, Doesn't this also fit, from Baha'u'llah? Thanks. I just finished writing a short paper on this subject, and I added it. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though. I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim call Muhammad the Revealor. God was the source of the revelation, it was conveyed by Gabriel, and given to Muhammad. (Saaws) Muhammad was more a passive recipient in the process. That is part of where the doctrine of illiteracy (ummi) really plays a role. Just as Mary is said to have conceived Christ in a way different from the way other men were conceived. The Quran was also conceived in a way different from how other books were conceived. But I've had the impression that Bahais seem to be thinking that in some sense the Quran comes *from* Muhammad himself. Peace Gilberto On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:37:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: Islamically the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad, it comes from God. Who said different. Muhammed is the Revealor and I refer to that as authorship. Actually, Gabriel revealed the Qur'an to Muhammed as is mentioned in the Qur'an. Regards, Scott__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Past Revelations
Hi, John, At 09:33 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: Have you seen anyone do it from Islamic primary sources. I'd say it would be easier because it is wholly authentic, and much longer. Yes, especially in certain branches of Tasawwuf (Sufism). Gilberto has also given some examples of texts which could be used to justify either universalism or inclusivism. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
Hi, Khazeh, At 09:40 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: This list is open and both of these scholars have great wisdom and ability. I have made the archives public, but only subscribers can post to the list. If they like, I can subscribe them in nomail mode. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authentic Holy Qur'an Majid
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:50:10 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, Khazeh, Mark, Susan, et al., How long after the passing of the Prophet was the Authentic Holy Qur'an compiled? From what I've read it was completely memorized and completely written down on various materials during the time of the prophet. But it wasn't completely arranged, all in one place, in its current order until the time of Uthman. Here's one description of the process: [begin quote] What the Prophet left to the Muslims The revelation, as left by the Prophet, was available both orally and written on various materials. Its internal order was known to the Muslims and strictly observed by them. Abu Bakr collected these loose materials and had their contents written on to sheets (suhuf). The Difference belween Abu Bakr's and 'Uthman's Collection Abu Bakr had made one single copy from the various verbal and written material. This copy was later kept by 'Umar and then by his daughter Hafsa. 'Uthman had many copies prepared from this copy and sent them to various places in the Muslim world, while the original suhuf were returned to Hafsa and remained with her until her death. Later, Marwan b. Hakam (d. 65/684), according to a report in Ibn Abi Dawud, collected it from her heirs and had it destroyed, presumably fearing it might become the cause for new disputes. 'Uthman also kept one of the copies for himself. This version of the text, also known as 'Mushaf 'Uthman in fact constitutes the ijma'(consensus) of the sahaba, all of whom agreed that it contained what Muhammad had brought as revelation from Allah. [58] [end quote] Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Past Revelations
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:33:56 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark: IMO, Baha'i soteriology is both particularist and inclusivist. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admit the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into the New Testament. John: Have you seen anyone do it from Islamic primary sources. I'd say it would be easier because it is wholly authentic, and much longer. I'm not sure if this is what you are asking for, but they seem to be relevant. And what I find interesting, especially in those hadith is that they mention tawhid but they don't insist on believing in Muhammad (saaws) per se. Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62 Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 131: Narrated Anas: I was informed that the Prophet had said to Mu'adh, Whosoever will meet Allah without associating anything in worship with Him will go to Paradise. Mu'adh asked the Prophet, Should I not inform the people of this good news? The Prophet replied, No, I am afraid, lest they should depend upon it (absolutely). Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0039: It is narrated on the authority of 'Uthman that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. He who died knowing (fully well) that there is no god but Allah entered Paradise Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0048: It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Mu'adh, do you know the right of Allah over His bondsmen? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Messenger of Allah) said: That Allah alone should be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What right have they (bondsmen) upon Him in case they do it? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That He would not punish them. Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ignorance or forgetfulness
In a message dated 1/9/2005 3:58:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe it's just me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem isn't ignorance as much as forgetfulness. No offense, Gilberto, but is that your *personal* perspective. It looks likethe rather standard Islamic one to me. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though. Very much so. Here are my own understandings: The Baha'i concept of divine Manifestation is probably closer to the mainline christologies of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy, minus their incarnationist and anthropomorphic aspects, than it is to certain Islamic and Jewish views of Prophets as ordinary humans. The Prophet is a reflection of God. One might say that the mainline Christianities have been substantially correct about the station of Christ. However, they have been largely incorrect concerning the position of the Essence of God. Although God's Essence is not incarnated into His Manifestations, His Will and His Logos are incarnated into Them. One may, in a sense, call each of the Prophets God (or, as I prefer, our personal God), as long as one keeps in mind the distinction between divine Essence and divine Manifestation. In addition, each Manifestation is, to use my term, a product of a Prophetic ecology. On one level, the Prophet is an ordinary man encountering, or embedded and contextualized in, a family, community, society, and culture. His consciousness of His divine nature develops only gradually. On another level, the Prophet *is* the Word and Will of God, The dialectic or synergy between His divinity and humanity allows Him to interact with His fellow human beings. The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. Similar metaphors for Holy Spirits were, from a Baha'i perspective, used by Moses (the Burning Bush), by Zoroaster (the Sacred Fire), by Jesus (the Dove), by the Bab (His vision of the Imam Husayn), and by Baha'u'llah (His vision of the Maiden). With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Oops! The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. I forgot I was talking about Muhammad. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
Dear Khazeh: On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:40:51 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43297.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43305.html Gilberto: One issue which should be raised however, is that the Torah was a revelation given to Moses. But if you actually study the history ofthe text and modern Biblical scholarship, virtually no Biblicalscholar actually believes that the current first five books of theBible (the Pentateuch) was entirely written by Moses (as). The mostwidely accepted understanding is something called the documentaryhypothesis. Where scholars have traced the contributions of 4different authors and styles in the book. And there are indicationsthat these 4 source materials weren't combined until several centuriesafter Moses. So I'm sure that at least part of the original Torah of Moses iscontained in the Pentateuch BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THE PENTETEUCH IS THE SAME AS THE TORAH.Gilberto Dear Khazeh, you are correct that those are the words I wrote. But you chose to put the last part in all capital letters (I didn't). And in the post you are quoting from I also said many positive things about the Torah and that there was much unappreciated wisdom in it, and that it is likely that in essential important ways the core teachings of the Torah (the original revelation given to Moses) can be found in the Penteteuch (the first five books of the Bible, which is often described as the Torah). You are obviously emphasizing a part of what I said in order to make a point, and that is ok. But I just wanted to make sure to say all the above so that my words aren't taken out of context or give the wrong impression of what I'm saying. There are at least 3 really simple examples of how one might want to make a distinction between the Torah and the Penteteuch. 1. It was my impression that Bahais (and typical Muslims) took the position that Ishmael was the son who was almost sacrificed by Abraham instead of Isaac (as the Bible) says. In Gleanings from the Writings of Bah'u'llh, passage number 32, Bah'u'llh mentions the sacrifice that Abraham must make to prove His faith. It states: That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. So since the Penteteuch clearly identifies the son as Isaac, then somehow there is a discrepancy here unless you want to say that the revelation of God given to Moses had a mistake in it. 2. There are the commandments to commit genocide which are found in the Penteteuch and which is hard to believe are inspired. 3. But then third third reason which more directly speaks to the point about Mosaic authorship is the fact that at the end of Deuteronomy, Moses' own death is described as if it had already happened along time ago. Deuteronomy 34 5] So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, [6] and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe'or; but no man knows the place of his burial ***to this day*** [So when was this written?] [7] Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. [8] And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. [9] And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him; so the people of Israel obeyed him, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses. [10] And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, [This statement doesn't mean anything if it was written right after Moses passed away. It's like saying George Bush is the best President of the United States since Bill Clinton.] So at the very least, this passage of Deuteronomy was written by someone long after Moses. But then scholars say that the writing style of this passage shows up in other parts of the Penteteuch. And there are many other indications that the Penteteuch had multiple authors and was put together centuries after Moses. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public -
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:18:52 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though. Mark: Very much so. Here are my own understandings: The Baha'i concept of divine Manifestation is probably closer to the mainline christologies of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy, minus their incarnationist and anthropomorphic aspects, than it is to certain Islamic and Jewish views of Prophets as ordinary humans. Gilberto: Ok Mark: The Prophet is a reflection of God. One might say that the mainline Christianities have been substantially correct about the station of Christ. However, they have been largely incorrect concerning the position of the Essence of God. Although God's Essence is not incarnated into His Manifestations, His Will and His Logos are incarnated into Them. One may, in a sense, call each of the Prophets God (or, as I prefer, our personal God), as long as one keeps in mind the distinction between divine Essence and divine Manifestation. Gilberto: But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with language which could lead to confusion? Is it in order to make it easier for people who come from Incarnational types of backgrounds (Christians and Hindus I guess) feel more comfortable as if they don't have to give up as much? Mark: The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. Similar metaphors for Holy Spirits were, from a Baha'i perspective, used by Moses (the Burning Bush), by Zoroaster (the Sacred Fire), by Jesus (the Dove), by the Bab (His vision of the Imam Husayn), and by Baha'u'llah (His vision of the Maiden). Gilberto: It actually sounds alot like Crowley now. Didn't he have a similar conception. I forget the exact term now but one adopted the terminology of spirits and angels but it was really just an expression of your True Will? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
Hi, Gilberto, At 11:39 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: So since the Penteteuch clearly identifies the son as Isaac, then somehow there is a discrepancy here unless you want to say that the revelation of God given to Moses had a mistake in it. Yes, but the issue may be a bit more complex: In one of His Tablets, Abdul-Bahá refers to this discrepancy [Isaac vis-a-vis Ismael], and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey Gods command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance -- From a letter, dated August 9, 1984, from the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/lawh.haji.kamalud.din.html With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Hi, Gilberto, At 11:47 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with language which could lead to confusion? What language? Is it in order to make it easier for people who come from Incarnational types of backgrounds (Christians and Hindus I guess) feel more comfortable as if they don't have to give up as much? Not from my perspective, but I am not much of an apologist. It actually sounds alot like Crowley now. Didn't he have a similar conception. I forget the exact term now but one adopted the terminology of spirits and angels but it was really just an expression of your True Will? Yes, he even used the term maiden, coincidentally enough, but not in the same sense as Baha'u'llah. To Crowley, all these beings were simply names for expressions of one's true Will, which is why he regarded himself as a nominalist. (For some reason, a lot of writers don't seem to get that point.) With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:08:31 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 11:47 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with language which could lead to confusion? Mark: What language? Gilberto: When you say that the Manifestations can be called God. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
Based on Khazeh and Mark's comments, I've summarized them, in my view of course,below. No disrespect or exclusivism or superiority is intended. - "We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)" This statement emphasizes that the gathering of the Lord will come about after the revelation of this Book, the Qur'an. Thisverse is in complete harmony with Baha'i view, and supports the stations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The people are not always prepared to hear everything that God says, including in the Qur'an. Just and the Jews also had a "complete" Book, there were reasons toexplain aroundit, as Muslims do. The history repeats itself until the Day of the Lord when all things will shine with the Light of the Lord. "And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." (Qur'an 39:68-69) Again, the Bab says that the people were not prepared to view Muhammad as the Lord, they were prepared to view him only as man, exactly as the Perfect Qur'an described. "When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, FOR THEY COULD NOT BEAR IT." The Bayan 8:9 "Had they heard, they would not have believed." The Bayan 8:9 "This Day is indeed an infinitely might Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.' " The Bayan 8:9 One thing that Muslimsdid not havewas the correct station of Muhammad the Prophet. The Qur'an cannot be faulted for it,it is the limitation of the people. The Religion of God is made of two things: The Book, and the Person. * Christians did not have the Gospel exactly right, but they had the Person right. The peoplewere prepared to hear one, but not the other. * The Muslims had the Book right, but they didn't have the Person right. The people were prepared to hear one, but not the other. * Baha'is, thank God, have the Person right, He is the Lord our God, and theyhave the Book exactly right, since it was written by the Person Himself. "O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones." -Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Ahmad Arabic "Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord." -Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Ahmad Arabic __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Perennialism
Hi, folks, Someone asked me today to discuss further the philosophia perennis. I am not sure if I can add anything to what I, Gilberto, and others have said, but I will try. The problem is that there is not just one perennial philosophy. Treating this subject in an email message is difficult and, perhaps, unrealistic. Writers have constructed it differently. Most have focused, to some degree, on Platonism or Neo-Platonism. Others have looked at Vedanta, at one or more of the Buddhisms, at the views of the Traditionalists, or at the esoteric opponents of the Traditionalists, the HPB Theosophists. Finally, there are some writers (often Hindus, Buddhists, or Baha'is) for whom the term perennial philosophy is simply a name for their own religions. In other words, visions of the perennial philosophy run the gambit from religiocentric and triumphalist to universal and syncretistic. Since there is no single philosophia perennis, how one regards it will depend upon one's religious or spiritual background, one's personal, professional, or academic interests, or one's readings. On the positive side, some understandings of the perennial philosophy reflect an awareness of different religions and cultures and a desire to take them into account in one's worldview. J. Michael Straczynski's self-constructed religion of foundationism (in Babylon 5), a synthesis of earth religions inspired by extraterrestrial contacts, is an interesting metaphor: http://www.infinicorp.com/VEX/organizations/human-foundationism.htm On the negative side, most approaches to the perennial philosophy are either syncretistic or triumphalist. For that reason, they reflect a kind of ideological hegemony. They are unfair to the particular contributions of the different religions incorporated into one's system. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:32:14 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on Khazeh and Mark's comments, I've summarized them, in my view of course, below. No disrespect or exclusivism or superiority is intended. We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38) This statement emphasizes that the gathering of the Lord will come about after the revelation of this Book, the Qur'an. This verse is in complete harmony with Baha'i view, and supports the stations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I don't think it gives positive support, they aren't even mentioned or implied. And in order to harmonize it you have to qualify anything to a certain degree. The people are not always prepared to hear everything that God says, including in the Qur'an. I agree that people aren't always prepared to hear what God is saying. that is true. But what I'm saying is that those truths actually *are* in the Quran in some form. It's not left out. In particular, because the Quran itself says We did not leave anything out of this Book Just and the Jews also had a complete Book, there were reasons to explain around it, as Muslims do. The history repeats itself until the Day of the Lord when all things will shine with the Light of the Lord. In the Bahai understanding aren't there several Days of the Lord? And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord. (Qur'an 39:68-69) Ok, the passage then goes on: [39.69] And the earth shall beam with the light of its Lord, and the Book shall be laid down, and the prophets and the witnesses shall be brought up, and judgment shall be given between them with justice, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly. [39.70] And every soul shall be paid back fully what it has done, and He knows best what they do. What does it mean that the prophets and witness shall be brought up? It gives the impression more of a culminating event involving the prophets, no? And what does it mean that every soul shall be paid back fully what it has done? It seems weird. If judgement day is an event in ordinary human history such that it was possible for most of the world to live through with most people not even having an inkling that it was happening, is that kind of odd? Are people paid back for their sins now, then at any other time in history? Again, the Bab says that the people were not prepared to view Muhammad as the Lord, they were prepared to view him only as man, exactly as the Perfect Qur'an described. When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, FOR THEY COULD NOT BEAR IT. The Bayan 8:9 That would be the Bab's claim. That would be convincing evidence to a Babi or a Bahai but not a Muslim. Had they heard, they would not have believed. The Bayan 8:9 This Day is indeed an infinitely might Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.' The Bayan 8:9 One thing that Muslims did not have was the correct station of Muhammad the Prophet. The Qur'an cannot be faulted for it, it is the limitation of the people. How, in your opinion, did Muslims get the station of Muhammad wrong? Peace gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
At 01:25 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: When you say that the Manifestations can be called God. Oh, okay. It is because Baha'u'llah has said that the Prophets can call Themselves God: Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: I am God, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: Those shafts were God's, not Thine. And also He saith: In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God. And were any of them to voice the utterance, I am the Messenger of God, He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God. Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, I am the Seal of the Prophets, they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Seen and the Hidden - all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, We are the Servants of God, this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. -- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, p.54 He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is. And in like manner, the words: Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee. He similarly saith: There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: I am but a man like you. Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle? These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. -- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, pp.66-67) With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
My beloved Gilberto: You wrote today in http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43327.html **Dear Khazeh, you are correct that those are the words I wrote. But you chose to put the last part in all capital letters (I didn't). ... You are obviously emphasizing a part of what I said in order to make a point, and that is ok. But I just wanted to make sure to say all the above so that my words aren't taken out of context or give the wrong impression of what I'm saying.** The rest of your letter here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43327.html Point1] [khazeh most humbly and somewhat sadly] Your reply is wonderful and thanks you. I just wish to say though that I do not have any more to add dear Gilberto. My human abilities are at an end in this dialogue. Apart from some specific thing I think I wish to say fee amaan illah as we say in the East, That is may you rest in the peace of God. I have begged you so many times to read the Writings of Baha'u'llah directly as you have read the other Writings and I will end with the same. I love you. I appreciate you and I am most happy in what you have found. And in one of your kind letters THREE TIMES you reminded my humble mind that you GS] do not wish for a new Faith. The Teachings of the Bahai Faith say: Each Ummat had in their Day/ in their Dispensation what was needed until the Advent of the New Dispensation. The Babi and Bahai Faith is being attacked in Iran for the last 169 years most virulently most violently. It is enough for us to reflect why. Why. If we answer the why fully we can all go forward. In each Day the Testimony was Complete. In the Days of Moses it was complete. In the Days of Jesus Christ the Word of God it was complete. In the Dispensation of Muhammad it was complete until ...the rest you know nearly as well as any Bahai... To maintain that the testimony of Providence was incomplete, that it hath therefore been the cause of the denial of the people, is but open blasphemy. (Iqan, p. 14) As to completeness and incompleteness this is such a dark alley to be lost in...We have to say that Torah is incomplete, and so on...and then when we read what Umar [the Second Caliph] said we get even sadder... Two years after the Prophet died, the Muslims were engaged in a bloody battle with a rival community at Yarnama in the deserts of Arabia. Many of the memorizers (qurra) of the Qur'an lost their lives at this time. Fearing that a great portion of the Qur'an would be lost should a similar situation arise and more memorizers of the Qur'an die, Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet, ordered that the Qur'an be collected. To this end, the Prophet's companions and the memorizers of the Qur'an were asked to come forward with any parts of the revelation they had memorized or written down in any form. Abu Bakr ordered 'Umar, his successor to be, and Zayd b. Thabit, a young recorder of revelation during the Prophet's lifetime, to sit at the entrance to the mosque of Medina and record any verse or part of the revelation that at least two witnesses testified that they had heard from the Prophet. In one particular case, though, the testimony of a single witness was accepted. All of the material gathered in this manner was recorded on sheets of paper, or parchment, but was not yet compiled as a volume. Furthermore, these materials were not made available to the Muslim community, which continued to possess the Qur'an only in its primitive scattered form. The sheets remained in the keeping of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and after 'Umar's death they passed to his daughter Hafsa. 'Uthman took the sheets from Hafsa during his caliphate and had them put together in the form of a volume. He had several copies sent to different parts of the Muslim world and he then ordered that any other collection or portion of the Qur'an found anywhere else be burned. It is reported that 'Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the Qur'an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of Yamama and that the verse was consequently lost. ... All these are recorded with infinite detail. If we wish to get into that we shall need three years at least But dearest Gilberto I am not as young as you dear brother. I may be in fact twice your age so I get tired...and I get tired of any discourse that seeks differences. My guiding light as I say Good bye for a few days or weeks is The Revelation of Baha'u'llah upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they [the previous Dispensations] enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles
Re: Perennialism
And since in some ways I have been the one waving the Perennialist flag in here, let me say that I would not call myself a card-carrying Platonist. But I think that there are deep underlying and recurring similarities in various religions. And that in general I wouldn't say that a religion is better just because it is more recent. Peace Gilberto On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:49:21 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, folks, Someone asked me today to discuss further the philosophia perennis. I am not sure if I can add anything to what I, Gilberto, and others have said, but I will try. The problem is that there is not just one perennial philosophy. Treating this subject in an email message is difficult and, perhaps, unrealistic. Writers have constructed it differently. Most have focused, to some degree, on Platonism or Neo-Platonism. Others have looked at Vedanta, at one or more of the Buddhisms, at the views of the Traditionalists, or at the esoteric opponents of the Traditionalists, the HPB Theosophists. Finally, there are some writers (often Hindus, Buddhists, or Baha'is) for whom the term perennial philosophy is simply a name for their own religions. In other words, visions of the perennial philosophy run the gambit from religiocentric and triumphalist to universal and syncretistic. Since there is no single philosophia perennis, how one regards it will depend upon one's religious or spiritual background, one's personal, professional, or academic interests, or one's readings. On the positive side, some understandings of the perennial philosophy reflect an awareness of different religions and cultures and a desire to take them into account in one's worldview. J. Michael Straczynski's self-constructed religion of foundationism (in Babylon 5), a synthesis of earth religions inspired by extraterrestrial contacts, is an interesting metaphor: http://www.infinicorp.com/VEX/organizations/human-foundationism.htm On the negative side, most approaches to the perennial philosophy are either syncretistic or triumphalist. For that reason, they reflect a kind of ideological hegemony. They are unfair to the particular contributions of the different religions incorporated into one's system. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:16:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: When you say that the Manifestations can be called God. Oh, okay. It is because Baha'u'llah has said that the Prophets can call Themselves God: Sure I understand that. And what I'm saying is that it seems like there is a high potential for confusion. Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references
Gilberto, At 02:30 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: Sure I understand that. And what I'm saying is that it seems like there is a high potential for confusion. And there are different viewpoints on this subject among Baha'is. However, I am not sure that confusion is always a bad thing. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:18:33 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Khazeh: I have begged you so many times to read the Writings of Baha'u'llah directly as you have read the other Writings and I will end with the same. I've looked at them (along with other writings) In each Day the Testimony was Complete. In the Days of Moses it was complete. In the Days of Jesus Christ the Word of God it was complete. In the Dispensation of Muhammad it was complete until ...the rest you know nearly as well as any Bahai... What great spiritual truth of one religion was missing from the previous ones? To maintain that the testimony of Providence was incomplete, that it hath therefore been the cause of the denial of the people, is but open blasphemy. (Iqan, p. 14) Let me include a little bit more. The discussion is about why the Manifestations were persecuted or mistreated. And the passage discusses possible explanations. And then rules OUT the possiblity that the previous communities were given incomplete revelation. But it seems like Bahais actually are saying that the Quran is incomplete in the present day. As to completeness and incompleteness this is such a dark alley to be lost in...We have to say that Torah is incomplete, and so on...and then when we read what Umar [the Second Caliph] said we get even sadder... Gilberto: I'm not saying the Torah is incomplete. you are. And secondly, do you *believe* the Quran is incomplete in the way you are refering to? Do you believe part of the Quran was just accidentally lost? Are you serious? But dearest Gilberto I am not as young as you dear brother. I may be in fact twice your age so I get tired...and I get tired of any discourse that seeks differences. I'm all in favor of looking for similarities but when I think I find them, it seems people have trouble agreeing. If I try to point out the ways in which many Bahai ideas are already in Islam, I get the feeling that Bahais don't like it because there is a feeling that the Bahais are better. Not just equal, not just the same, not just the perennial truths in different words, but better. My guiding light as I say Good bye for a few days or weeks is The Revelation of Baha'u'llah upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they [the previous Dispensations] enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, Ok. readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations *** And here is where problems can start because members of various religions probably don't see themselves as just links in a chain, or stepping stones, or having just limited contributions. Do you understand how another person would not want to see themselves that way? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
In a message dated 1/9/2005 3:08:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What great spiritual truth of one religion was missing from the previous ones? This is much like saying: "So what in particular were you never told?" Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
Gilberto, Do you know anything about Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf ? He is the founder of ASMA - the American Sufi Muslim Muslim Association: http://www.asmasociety.org/ His publications are here: http://www.asmasociety.org/shop/ I just saw him (15 minutes ago) as a member of a panel of religious leaders on CNN. He appears to be a Traditionalist. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
Gilberto, At 03:07 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: But it seems like Bahais actually are saying that the Quran is incomplete in the present day. Each Revelation is regarded as complete for the duration of a particular Dispensation, but I don't think we should then conclude that previous Revelations have no value. One only needs to open one's eyes to see how some of them continue to inspire souls. However, the Will of God, as explained by the Bab, is that the latest Revelation should be universally accepted. IMO, that is one of the principal implications of progressive Revelation. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:55:44 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, Do you know anything about Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf ? I do now... lol... Actually, I've seen his recent book in bookstores, but I honestly haven't seen more than that. Peace Gilberto He is the founder of ASMA - the American Sufi Muslim Muslim Association: http://www.asmasociety.org/ His publications are here: http://www.asmasociety.org/shop/ I just saw him (15 minutes ago) as a member of a panel of religious leaders on CNN. He appears to be a Traditionalist. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:11:21 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/9/2005 3:08:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What great spiritual truth of one religion was missing from the previous ones? This is much like saying: So what in particular were you never told? I'm not sure what is wrong with the question. Let me give you an analogy. Think of each religion as a big bag of stuff. If it is a book based religion, then first and foremost, the book is in the bag. But then the bag also contains the orthodox traditional commentaries and explanations of the books, the writings of saints, philosophers, mystics and poets. preachers, theologians, legal scholars, revolutionaries. In the corners of the bag you might even include some heretics for good measure. And so on, and so on. And you imagine such a bag for each religion. Islam, Christianity, the Bahai faith, etc. I actually think that the different bags are going to mostly have the same contents. I would be hard pressed to find something which is one bag and not in the others. The contents might be arranged differently. Certain things are right on top where they are easy to get to. Other things are down at the bottom and you have to reach for them. But more or less, the contents are going to be basically the same. Now, at some deep level, I'm really really comfortable with the bag labeled Islam in such a way that I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe in and easily accept the others unreservedly. So much so that I am actually really comfortable saying that Islam is true and other religions are false, but that I'm also willing to say that some of this may only be the case due to my perspective and from God's perspective and within God's mercy, all kinds of amazing things are possible. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
"We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)" This statement emphasizes that the gathering of the Lord will come about after the revelation of this Book, the Qur'an. This verse is in complete harmony with Baha'i view, and supports the stations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.G: I don't think it gives positive support, they aren't even mentioned orimplied. And in order to harmonize it you have to qualify "anything"to a certain degree. J: There is no need to mention them directly in this verse, since their merit stands on their Own persons and their Own writings. They have reproduced texts equal to the Revelation of the Qur'an. Let me ask you, what is the proof that Muhammad is the Prophet of God? Is there specific reference in the Bible? No. The same criteria is used about the Bab and Baha'u'llah. G: I agree that people aren't always prepared to hear what God is saying.that is true. But what I'm saying is that those truths actually *are*in the Quran in some form. It's not left out. In particular, becausethe Quran itself says "We did not leave anything out of this Book" J: Can you see thatthis is the same logic Christians use to reject Muhammad.G: In the Bahai understanding aren't there several "Days of the Lord"? J: Yes, there are, but the people were not prepared to hear it, so it was not explained in the Qur'an. This idea was explain in this day when the people where gathered before their Lord, the Bab.G: It seems weird. If judgement day is an event in ordinary human historysuch that it was possible for most of the world to live through withmost people not even having an inkling that it was happening, is thatkind of odd? Are people "paid back" for their sins now, then at anyother time in history? J: That is the explanation, and it is weird. This was not explained in the Qur'an because the people would not be able to understand or believe it. It seems you don't understand or believe it, so I can see the Bab's point first hand. :) .But, the Bab says that in this day the peoplefinally have the potential tounderstand this spiritual truth."When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, FOR THEY COULD NOT BEAR IT. Had they heard, they would not have believed." The Bayan 8:9G: That would be the Bab's claim. That would be convincing evidence to aBabi or a Bahai but not a Muslim. J: Just as the explanations you give about the perfection of the Qur'an are convincing evidence for the Muslim but not the Christian and Jew. G: How, in your opinion, did Muslims get the station of Muhammad wrong?J:"This Day is indeed an infinitely might Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.' " The Bayan 8:9 J: Prophet Muhammad does have the legitimacy to proclaim: ' Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.' Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
In a message dated 1/9/2005 5:39:45 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: actually think that the different bags are going to mostly have thesame contents. I would be hard pressed to find something which is onebag and not in the others. The contents might be arranged differently.Certain things are right on top where they are easy to get to. Otherthings are down at the bottom and you have to reach for them. But moreor less, the contents are going to be basically the same. But you still cannot say anything about what might NOT be in the bag. You don't know it, because it is not in there. So you are holoding out the bag and saying what is NOT in here? Do you listen to what someone tells you is not in there, or do you say "Its not in here, so I am not interested."? I understand you are happy with Islam. That is fine. Do I think you condemned because you do not believe as I? Of course, not. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:59:41 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/9/2005 5:39:45 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: actually think that the different bags are going to mostly have the same contents. I would be hard pressed to find something which is one bag and not in the others. The contents might be arranged differently. Certain things are right on top where they are easy to get to. Other things are down at the bottom and you have to reach for them. But more or less, the contents are going to be basically the same. But you still cannot say anything about what might NOT be in the bag. You don't know it, because it is not in there. So you are holoding out the bag and saying what is NOT in here? Do you listen to what someone tells you is not in there, or do you say Its not in here, so I am not interested.? Im not sure what you mean. The Bahai faith claims to be a progression or advancement over Islam and other religions, no? If so, wouldn't that imply that there is something in the Bahai bag, which isn't in the others. The Bahais are the ones saying that something is missing, no? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:13:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I"m not sure what you mean. The Bahai faith claims to be a progressionor advancement over Islam and other religions, no? If so, wouldn'tthat imply that there is something in the Bahai bag, which isn't inthe others. The Bahais are the ones saying that something is missing,no? I think that is an obtuse response, personally - no offense intended. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblical matters
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:46:49 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38) This statement emphasizes that the gathering of the Lord will come about after the revelation of this Book, the Qur'an. This verse is in complete harmony with Baha'i view, and supports the stations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. G: I don't think it gives positive support, they aren't even mentioned or implied. And in order to harmonize it you have to qualify anything to a certain degree. J: There is no need to mention them directly in this verse, since their merit stands on their Own persons and their Own writings. They have reproduced texts equal to the Revelation of the Qur'an. g: Ok, that's what you are claiming because of the Bahai writings. All I'm saying is that the particular passage in the Quran doesn't say that. J: Let me ask you, what is the proof that Muhammad is the Prophet of God? Is there specific reference in the Bible? Gilberto: Yes. I actually thought the Bahai writings agreed on this point. Don't the Bahai writings affirm that Muhammad is the Comforter promised by Jesus and/or the Prophet Like Unto Moses mentioned in Deuteronomy? G: I agree that people aren't always prepared to hear what God is saying. that is true. But what I'm saying is that those truths actually *are* in the Quran in some form. It's not left out. In particular, because the Quran itself says We did not leave anything out of this Book J: Can you see that this is the same logic Christians use to reject Muhammad. Gilberto: Firstly I don't know of any Christians who have made this same argument with regard to Islam. There are many arguments I've heard from Christians against Islam (usually involving slandering Muhammad or Islamic teachings somehow) but I've never heard the above. Secondly, the argument Im making doesn't say to reject future religious figures but just that they are unnecessary. G: In the Bahai understanding aren't there several Days of the Lord? J: Yes, there are, but the people were not prepared to hear it, so it was not explained in the Qur'an. This idea was explain in this day when the people where gathered before their Lord, the Bab. What do you think makes this idea hard to understand. It's not intrinsically deep. There are religions which are alot older like Buddhism or Hinduism which see history in terms of repeating cycles. If the doctrine is true, I don't think there is anything which would make it hard to understand. G: It seems weird. If judgement day is an event in ordinary human history such that it was possible for most of the world to live through with most people not even having an inkling that it was happening, is that kind of odd? Are people paid back for their sins now, then at any other time in history? J: That is the explanation, and it is weird. Gilberto: But you didn't explain anything. You just asserted it was true. But if you look at the Quran something which is supposed to happen during judgement day is that they were supposed to be paid back for their deeds. So how did that happen when the Bab came? And then again with Bahaullah? This was not explained in the Qur'an because the people would not be able to understand or believe it. It seems you don't understand or believe it, so I can see the Bab's point first hand. :) Lol you didn't get what I was saying though. When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, FOR THEY COULD NOT BEAR IT. Had they heard, they would not have believed. The Bayan 8:9 G: That would be the Bab's claim. That would be convincing evidence to a Babi or a Bahai but not a Muslim. J: Just as the explanations you give about the perfection of the Qur'an are convincing evidence for the Muslim but not the Christian and Jew. Gilberto: Ok, that doesn't make them right or me wrong. G: How, in your opinion, did Muslims get the station of Muhammad wrong? J: This Day is indeed an infinitely might Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me.' The Bayan 8:9 So in the Bahai writings the divine tree stands for Muhammad specifically? And again, how do Muslims get it wrong? Even in the Bahai faith, the Manifestation is not the essence of God. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:14:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:13:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Im not sure what you mean. The Bahai faith claims to be a progression or advancement over Islam and other religions, no? If so, wouldn't that imply that there is something in the Bahai bag, which isn't in the others. The Bahais are the ones saying that something is missing, no? I think that is an obtuse response, personally - no offense intended. Nevertheless its a sincere response. Instead of resorting to name-calling you should just say where the mistake is. Or be clearer in what you are trying to say. If the Bahai faith truly represents radical progress and maturity then it should provide something which is missing from the other religions. If there is nothing missing from previous religions then they are perfectly sufficient for today. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Responding with affection. Recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38] adding Biblic...
In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:39:47 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nevertheless its a sincere response. Instead of resorting toname-calling you should just say where the mistake is. To call a response "obtuse" is not calling anyone a name, Gilberto. No offense was intended, mine was a sincere response. I found the response you gave obtuse,not you yourself. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
