Re: Fasting and the definition of sunrise and sunset
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Don, At 06:02 PM 1/26/2010, it was written: Both muslims and baha's fast from sunrise to sunset on their fasting days. They do not define what they mean by the terminology 1. Civilian: The sun is just at the horzon (zero degrees) Civilian sunrise occurs when the center of the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon, not at the horizon. This is the point at which terrestrial objects are clearly discernable and is what Baha'is use. It is wwhat is published in newspapers and the like. I think you might be confusing this issue because of the terminology that Stephen used. He referred to these as civil, nautical and astronomical sunrise, but the terms are actually civil, nautical and astronomical twilight. Sunrise is none of those. Civil twilight is when the center of the sun's disc is at 6 degrees below the horizon, but that is not sunset (or sunrise). Actual sunset isn't perfectly definable (except, perhaps, by watching it from a specific location with a clear horizon). It depends upon your elevation, latitude, whether you are on a plane, in a valley, on a hill or mountain, etc. For simplicity's sake astronomical sunset (and sunrise) is generally defined as a local time when the center of the sun's disc is 50 arc-minutes below the horizon. At that time, at sea level, with average refraction (and so-forth), the top of the sun's disc would disappear from view. So, for instance, here in Fayetteville, Arkansas, today, the Weather Underground < weatherunderground.com > reports: January 26, 2010 Rise: Set: Actual Time 7:21 AM CST 5:37 PM CST Civil Twilight 6:54 AM CST 6:04 PM CST Nautical Twilight 6:23 AM CST 6:35 PM CST Astronomical Twilight 5:52 AM CST 7:06 PM CST Now, I, personally, would take the time for the beginning and ending of the Baha'i Fast as being at the "actual" sunrise and sunset times - and it's always give-or-take a couple of minutes. John B. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483309-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fasting and the defintion of sunrise and sunset
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Dear Stephen, > > Muslims define sunrise and sunset by the period of time where one can > distinguish a black thread from a white thread. Baha'u'llah said we > can use a clock. I use the internet. ;-} > The idea of using a black and white thread comes from misreading a metaphorical passage in the Quran. One of my favorite stories is of a man who during one Ramadan actually kept a white thread and a black thread under his pillow, and when he mentioned this fact to the prophet, the prophet laughed and said "You must have a huge pillow" because the Quran was refering to the blackness of night and the whiteness of day. Also, Muslim fasting is NOT from sunrise to sunset, it is from daybreak to sunset. And more generally the various prayer / fasting times ARE defined pretty specifically in authoritative texts in terms of the position of the sun, the color and appearance of the sky, and the lengths of shadows. (but like Susan, I also use the internet). > warmest, Susan > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> Both muslims and baha's fast from sunrise to sunset on their fasting days. >> They do not define what they mean by the terminology >> 1. Civilian: The sun is just at the horzon (zero degrees) >> 2. Nautical: The sun is 12 degress below the horizon >> 3. Astronomical: The sun is 18 degrees below the horizon >> >> I have not read any Baha'i literature on the issue, but I have read a >> muslim webpage that the current majority of muslims who use the civilian >> system for their fasts are wrong. They do not specify nautical or >> astronomical specifically, but I am guessing astronomical. >> >> __ >> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com >> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483207-7387...@list.jccc.edu >> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> ly...@list.jccc.edu >> Or subscribe: >> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net >> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483260-684...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483307-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > They did so on the grounds that they think the Bab taught reincarnation, So because Dahesh thinks he is the reincarnation of the Bab that qualifies him to say that Some Answered Questions is a forgery? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483303-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I found this neutral academic study of Baha'i sects via Dear Stephen, You are either being disingenuous or you are terribly naive if you imagine this to be a 'neutral academic study of Baha'i sects.' No real academic publishes their work anonymously on a website this way. And any true academic would have done their research to determine which of these groups listed still actually exist. It is very clearly an attack on the Faith for it makes the blatant assertion that Baha'u'llah Himself broke the Bab's Covenant! I ask you once again, do not post material like this on this list. Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483302-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > I wonder if Covenant-breaking sects convert Baha'i to their way of thinking > or non-Baha'is or both? They seek to convert both, but who are most of them? Dear Stephen, Most Remeyite groups only manage to convert a handful of Baha'is and hardly anybody else. The Jenseniites have been an exception in this regard. Leland Jensen managed to use New Age networks like the Rainbow Gatherings and connections with students at Montana State University to build up a cult following. He lost most of that after the failed prophecies of 1980, still I think it is fair to say that most of his followers, including Neal Chase himself, were never Baha'is. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483301-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I have never seen an English translation of the Kitab-i-Ahd, other than at > the website of that other House of Justice. You're kiddding! It's been around for a long time. Neal Chase's BUPC does not do any translations; they don't have anyone who knows Persian or Arabic, __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483298-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >I wonder if Covenant-breaking sects convert Baha'i to their way of >thinking or non-Baha'is or both? They seek to convert both, but who >are most of them? > Occasionally. Baha'is are not to make any effort to "convert" CB's. There are a few who do become Baha'is however. We have at least one here in Montana. Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483293-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Book of Covenant (kitab-i-ahd) is included in "Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas". It is on http://reference.bahai.org Regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >I have never seen an English translation of the Kitab-i-Ahd, other >than at the website of that other House of Justice. > http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-16.html It's in "Tablets of Baha'u'llah After the Aqdas". An earlier version was in the compilation "Baha'i World Faith" Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483291-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv They did so on the grounds that they think the Bab taught reincarnation, Dahesh being the "return" of the Bab means something like that to them. There are several references to reincarnation on their website. Dr. Dahesh's calims are basically only valid via the fact he believes himself to be Bab's reincarnation, no actual connection to Babism in any other way though. From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 4:47:25 PM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What are arabic/persian letters like in trying to figure out handwriting? I > have heard that The Will & Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fraudulent. Dear Stephen, The person who suggested that the Will and Testament was fraudulent had no familiarity with either Persian or Arabic. I have > also heard that Some Answered Questions is also fraudulent, but from a > different source. The first, Free Baha'i Faith of Zimmer Hermann and Ruth > White and Mirza Ahmad Sorhab and Frederick Glaysher (also the Caravan of > East and West, the New Historic Society, the Reform Baha'i Faith), and the > second, Daheshism of Doctor Dahesh aka Salim/Saleem Musa/Moosa > Al-Awshi/El-Awshee. It was Ruth White who originally hired a handwriting expert to look over Abdu'l-Baha's Will. As I mentioned earlier the expert in question did not know Persian and was in no position to evaluate handwriting in that language, but Ruth White paid him so he took the money. The document which this handwriting expert looked at was not even the original Will, it was a facsimile. He made what he himself admitted was a very tentative evaluation based on this facsimile stating that without the original document he really couldn't be sure. I might add he couldn't be sure because of his unfamiliarity the script as well. The Will and Testament was written during three different periods of Abdu'l-Baha's life and reflected the variations we would expect to see as someone grows older. Also, there are various types of script used in writing Persian and the same person is more than capable of mastering several of them. I doubt if the person doing the handwriting analysis was at all aware of it. As for Ahmad Sohrab, despite his disobedience to Shoghi Effendi, he never challenged the authenticity, he never challenged the authenticity of the Will and Testament, the reason being that unlike Ruth White, Hermann Zimmer, Fred Glaysher or this handwriting expert, Ahmad Sohrab *knew* Abdu'l-Baha's handwriting and this was no forgery. As for Hermann Zimmer and Fred Glaysher, these two have merely stolen Ruth White's assertion and added nothing knew to the discussion. Their motives are pretty obvious. They don't like the Administrative Order and are willing to use any means, fare or foul to discredit it. I was not aware that the Daheshites were challenging the authenticity of the Some Answered Questions. I'm not sure on what grounds they could do so. As far as I know this is a movement. which has simply stolen a lot of Baha'i ideas. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483251-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483290-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I wonder if Covenant-breaking sects convert Baha'i to their way of thinking or non-Baha'is or both? They seek to convert both, but who are most of them? From: Don Calkins To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 6:09:11 PM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I am a regular Baha'i who just likes debating alot. I am here under being a Baha'i. I do not understand why anyone would be a member of the BUPC? LJ and NC have made so many failed prophecies that they should have zero credibility by now? > Why does any cult manage to maintain membership? Beyond the fact of his apparent charisma, I think its a matter of, "I've made up my mind; quit trying to confuse me with facts!" Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483284-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483289-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I have never seen an English translation of the Kitab-i-Ahd, other than at the website of that other House of Justice. From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 5:19:38 PM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: >> What are arabic/persian letters like in trying to figure out handwriting? I >> have heard that The Will & Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fraudulent. > > Dear Stephen, > > The person who suggested that the Will and Testament was fraudulent > had no familiarity with either Persian or Arabic. I should add that were there any credibility to the charge that the Will and Testament was forged, Muhammad Ali would have challenged it in court for the simple reason that in the absence of a Will he would have become heir to the leadership of the Baha'i Community as per the Kitab-i Ahd. One of the major purposes of the Will and Testament is to explain why Muhammad Ali is ineligible for succession. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483264-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483288-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >Hi, it is not related to the recent comments >about "sects" which I think are a waste of time >because the writings practically says that >Bahá'í faith will never have sects (at least for >1000 years). Care to quote an authoritative statement to this effect? The only statements along this line that I am familiar with simply say that they will come to naught, not that they won't exist. I think there is a very real possibility that splinter groups will always exist. Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483285-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >I am a regular Baha'i who just likes debating alot. I am here under >being a Baha'i. I do not understand why anyone would be a member of >the BUPC? LJ and NC have made so many failed prophecies that they >should have zero credibility by now? > Why does any cult manage to maintain membership? Beyond the fact of his apparent charisma, I think its a matter of, "I've made up my mind; quit trying to confuse me with facts!" Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483284-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fasting and the defintion of sunrise and sunset
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >Both muslims and baha's fast from sunrise to sunset on their fasting >days. They do not define what they mean by the terminology >1. Civilian: The sun is just at the horzon (zero degrees) >2. Nautical: The sun is 12 degress below the horizon >3. Astronomical: The sun is 18 degrees below the horizon > >I have not read any Baha'i literature on the issue, but I have read >a muslim webpage that the current majority of muslims who use the >civilian system for their fasts are wrong. They do not specify >nautical or astronomical specifically, but I am guessing >astronomical. > > Civilian sunrise occurs when the center of the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon, not at the horizon. This is the point at which terrestrial objects are clearly discernable and is what Baha'is use. It is wwhat is published in newspapers and the like. Muslims use an approximation of astronomical sunrise, the point at which the sun begins to provide *some* sky illumination. Don C __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483282-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: >> What are arabic/persian letters like in trying to figure out handwriting? I >> have heard that The Will & Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fraudulent. > > Dear Stephen, > > The person who suggested that the Will and Testament was fraudulent > had no familiarity with either Persian or Arabic. I should add that were there any credibility to the charge that the Will and Testament was forged, Muhammad Ali would have challenged it in court for the simple reason that in the absence of a Will he would have become heir to the leadership of the Baha'i Community as per the Kitab-i Ahd. One of the major purposes of the Will and Testament is to explain why Muhammad Ali is ineligible for succession. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483264-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fasting and the defintion of sunrise and sunset
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Stephen, Muslims define sunrise and sunset by the period of time where one can distinguish a black thread from a white thread. Baha'u'llah said we can use a clock. I use the internet. ;-} warmest, Susan On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Both muslims and baha's fast from sunrise to sunset on their fasting days. > They do not define what they mean by the terminology > 1. Civilian: The sun is just at the horzon (zero degrees) > 2. Nautical: The sun is 12 degress below the horizon > 3. Astronomical: The sun is 18 degrees below the horizon > > I have not read any Baha'i literature on the issue, but I have read a > muslim webpage that the current majority of muslims who use the civilian > system for their fasts are wrong. They do not specify nautical or > astronomical specifically, but I am guessing astronomical. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483207-7387...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483260-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fw: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Why does LJ even still have followers? Wikipedia lists several prophecies he > made that failed to materialize... He lost a lot of followers as a result of these failed prophecies. I've corresponded with several of them on the internet. Jensen's proclivity to apocalyptic prophecies seems to have come from Mason Remey, though Jensen and Neal Chase have carried it to extremes. For instance there is a pamphlet published in March of 1962, entitled "The Impending World Catastrophe." In this pamphlet Mason Remey is said to foretell an impending shift in the earth's crust which would cause a catastrophe. As I noted before, it is likely this prophecy was based on Ruth Moffett's misunderstanding of a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave in Egypt, but I think such prophecies became especially important to Remey when he realized so few of the Baha'is would follow him. His only hope at that time was for something apocalyptic to happen. In any case, this catastrophe was predicted to occur "very soon." "It may come at any time after April, 1963." In another publication by the New Mexico Remeyites it was stated: "This global catastrophe will cause certain land areas of the Earth's surface to rise above their present levels while others will disappear below the newly formed seas. These inundations will result in the annihilation of all human life in the submerged regions and this Death and Destruction will be augmented by the sudden extreme changes in temperature at the new Arctic and Antarctic areas. There will be other attending conditions such as earthquakes, the opening up of volcanoes and the crumbling-up of mountain ranges; - all of which, taken together, make up a terrifying picture of the coming of the dreadful day of The lord as prophesied in Holy Writ and which is now being confirmed through scientific studies of these movements of the Earth's crust." "The fear that the end is near is spreading amongst the peoples of all the world. those who seek physical safety at the high altitudes above sea level will in all probability be safe from the inundations; however, this does not guarantee that they will not suffer greatly. It is prophesied that two-thirds of the people of the world will be killed!" It was in response to prophecies such as this that Leland Jensen relocated to the mountains of Montana. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483259-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am a regular Baha'i who just likes debating alot. I am here under being a Baha'i. I do not understand why anyone would be a member of the BUPC? LJ and NC have made so many failed prophecies that they should have zero credibility by now? From: firestorm To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 6:42:26 PM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv :"Who are you, exactly? Are you an agent provocateur? Are you in this email group under false pretenses?" this is how it starts... there is an enormous wisdom in the Master's comments about avoiding Cb type stuff on the basis of its "contagion." there is virtue in the idea of "vaccination" or some similar metaphor. i offer the thought that often dialogs like this are a type of vaccination, and therefore naturally induce some tiny degree of fever. as the world moves towards the facebook/twitter model of "the wisdom of the crowd" it will become increasingly obvious that "the good" is in what is shown, not what is said, even when said loudly. i personally see an example of this in the House's doc on remey et al, which, in my own taxonomy can be placed in the "so how did that work out for you??" category if testing instruments; especially in that it acknowledges the innate human desire to want to know. ...and see it higher up the hierarchy tree in noting there is no month named "answers." __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482679-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483258-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fw: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Why does LJ even still have followers? Wikipedia lists several prophecies he made that failed to materialize... 1. In 1979, approximately 6 years after being released from prison, Jensen began teaching his followers that on April 29, 1980 a nuclear holocaust would kill a third of the world's population, and that over the next twenty years, the planet would be ravaged until in the year 2000 "God's Kingdom" would be established and a thousand years of peace would follow.[3] On the fateful night, Jensen led a group of followers into fallout shelters in Missoula, Montana.[16] The disconfirmed prophecy resulted in Jensen losing several contingents of adherents,[1] and his response was that he was right all along. Over the following years Jensen used several types of explanations, as noted by researcher Robert Balch,[17] 1. The prediction was fulfilled spiritually rather than physically. 2. The prophecy was fulfilled physically, but not in the manner expected. 3. The date was off because of a miscalculation. 4. The date was a prediction, not a prophecy. 5. The leaders had a moral responsibility to warn the public despite the date's uncertainty. 6. God had given the world a reprieve. 7. The prediction had been a test of members' faith. Jensen's followers had made substantial commitments to the prediction, building shelters, writing letters to government agencies and newspapers, and distributed thousands of leaflets urging fellow Missoulians to build fall-out shelters. To them the disconfirmation was "painfully obvious",[4] and researchers used them as a case study in cognitive dissonance. On the day after Jensen's seemingly failed prophecy, the local newspaper of Missoula, Montana, the Missoulian, published the following on April 30, 1980: "Based on his interpretations of the Bible and on measurements of the Great Pyramid of Kuhfu in Giza, Egypt, Jensen said, ‘either a provocative act that will escalate into World War III, or World War III itself,’ was to occur at 5:55 p.m. MDT Tuesday [4/29/80]." (Missoulian, Vol. 107 No. 311 April 30, 1980) Neal Chase later claimed that a "provocative act" occurred April 29 1980 when the Soviets launched a nuclear-powered satellite[18] (Cosmos 1176[19]) designed to monitor US naval activity by radar.[20] When asked by a UPI reporter Jensen did not express concern that the prediction might not come true, remarking "There will be a nuclear holocaust some day."[21] 2. After the 1980 event, Jensen introduced the idea that the seven-year Tribulationhad begun on the date of his prediction of a nuclear holocaust, and thus committed himself to another event happening on the same date in 1987.[4] In 1985 he made the prediction that Halley's Cometwould enter Earth's orbit on April 29, 1986, and collide with the Earth exactly one year later. In the interim year, he taught that the comet would break apart, pelt the Earth with debris, and produce massive earthquakes.[4] The new prophecy rekindled his followers, who became excited with the new idea. As opposed to the first prediction, this time his followers made very little commitments to the prophecy, and began making disclaimers even before the 1986 event. When the members gathered on the night before the comet was supposed to enter Earth's orbit, nobody mentioned the comet.[22] Jensen later said that the massive earthquakes were fulfilled by a "spiritual earthquake" when one of his important followers defected and left him.[17] 3.Throughout the 1990’s Chase made a total of 18 predictions which pertained to small-scale disasters that he claimed would lead step-by-step towards apocalypse, as well as dates for a nuclear attack on New York City by middle Eastern terrorists.[23] He based these predictions on Biblical prophecies, evidence from Hopi prophecies, planetary conjunctions, dreams, numerological coincidences, Nostradamus, and psychics.[22] After each failed prediction, the BUPC adherents carried on as usual, giving disclaimers to future predictions, and focusing on Jensen's other teachings. (This last one was Neal Chase, but you get the piont.) From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 10:54:31 PM Subject: Re: Fw: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv Here's a testimonial from a former Jensen followers.It was part of a thread of posts by women who had been victims of Jensen's womanizing. Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 5:14 pm Subject: Re: Accounts of Official or Institutional Abuse of Individual Baha'is I wanted to offer some support and corroboration for Sara's story and her accounts of Doc's sexual deviancies. Most of the females who were involved in the BUPC community, either permanently or just passing through for a series of firesides, which usually lasted two weeks, were well aware of Doc's sexual problems. Many experienced them fi
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What are arabic/persian letters like in trying to figure out handwriting? I > have heard that The Will & Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fraudulent. Dear Stephen, The person who suggested that the Will and Testament was fraudulent had no familiarity with either Persian or Arabic. I have > also heard that Some Answered Questions is also fraudulent, but from a > different source. The first, Free Baha'i Faith of Zimmer Hermann and Ruth > White and Mirza Ahmad Sorhab and Frederick Glaysher (also the Caravan of > East and West, the New Historic Society, the Reform Baha'i Faith), and the > second, Daheshism of Doctor Dahesh aka Salim/Saleem Musa/Moosa > Al-Awshi/El-Awshee. It was Ruth White who originally hired a handwriting expert to look over Abdu'l-Baha's Will. As I mentioned earlier the expert in question did not know Persian and was in no position to evaluate handwriting in that language, but Ruth White paid him so he took the money. The document which this handwriting expert looked at was not even the original Will, it was a facsimile. He made what he himself admitted was a very tentative evaluation based on this facsimile stating that without the original document he really couldn't be sure. I might add he couldn't be sure because of his unfamiliarity the script as well. The Will and Testament was written during three different periods of Abdu'l-Baha's life and reflected the variations we would expect to see as someone grows older. Also, there are various types of script used in writing Persian and the same person is more than capable of mastering several of them. I doubt if the person doing the handwriting analysis was at all aware of it. As for Ahmad Sohrab, despite his disobedience to Shoghi Effendi, he never challenged the authenticity, he never challenged the authenticity of the Will and Testament, the reason being that unlike Ruth White, Hermann Zimmer, Fred Glaysher or this handwriting expert, Ahmad Sohrab *knew* Abdu'l-Baha's handwriting and this was no forgery. As for Hermann Zimmer and Fred Glaysher, these two have merely stolen Ruth White's assertion and added nothing knew to the discussion. Their motives are pretty obvious. They don't like the Administrative Order and are willing to use any means, fare or foul to discredit it. I was not aware that the Daheshites were challenging the authenticity of the Some Answered Questions. I'm not sure on what grounds they could do so. As far as I know this is a movement. which has simply stolen a lot of Baha'i ideas. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483251-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Stephen, Sen McGlinn has analyzed the question of a fraudulent Will & Testament at great length here: http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/mitchells_mistake/ Mirza Ahmad Sohrab never questioned the handwriting Will and Testament. It all stemmed from the [incompetent] analysis of Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, who did not even know any Persian or Arabic. He was thus dabbling in a project about which he virtually knew nothing, because he could not even read the language in question and knew nothing about the alphabet or the intricacies of its strokes and the like. All of the Westerners after him who allege the same thing rely solely on Ainsworth's fallacious conclusion, which Sen has thoroughly debunked. Best wishes, Adib On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > What are arabic/persian letters like in trying to figure out handwriting? I > have heard that The Will & Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fraudulent. I have > also heard that Some Answered Questions is also fraudulent, but from a > different source. The first, Free Baha'i Faith of Zimmer Hermann and Ruth > White and Mirza Ahmad Sorhab and Frederick Glaysher (also the Caravan of > East and West, the New Historic Society, the Reform Baha'i Faith), and the > second, Daheshism of Doctor Dahesh aka Salim/Saleem Musa/Moosa > Al-Awshi/El-Awshee. > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:adibmasum...@gmail.com > > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483240-15803...@list.jccc.edu > > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > -- "Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens." -- Bahá'u'lláh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483243-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What are arabic/persian letters like in trying to figure out handwriting? I have heard that The Will & Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha is fraudulent. I have also heard that Some Answered Questions is also fraudulent, but from a different source. The first, Free Baha'i Faith of Zimmer Hermann and Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sorhab and Frederick Glaysher (also the Caravan of East and West, the New Historic Society, the Reform Baha'i Faith), and the second, Daheshism of Doctor Dahesh aka Salim/Saleem Musa/Moosa Al-Awshi/El-Awshee. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483240-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Have they given a time frame for when women will be allowed on the UHJ (the > one in Haifa, Israel)? Dear Stephen, This was a theory proposed by Tony Lee and Juan Cole which the BUPC picked up on. The House of Justice rejected that theory in the following letter: http://bahai-library.com/uhj/women.uhj.html In my opinion the absence of a living Guardian makes it impossible for women to serve on the Universal House of Justice in this dispensation because no one has the authority to change the interpretations which have already been given by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Tony Lee and Juan Cole's paper largely ignore the Guardian's authoritative interpretation. If the Universal House of Justice were to do this it would mutilate the Cause in a way the Guardian assured us would never happen. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483234-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I do have some background in Abrahamic religions, but other than Judaism > there is not much actual use of the word covenant, Dear Stephen, That's not true. The word "testament" as in Old and New Testament means Covenant. Covenant in Judaism and the ancient world were generally sealed with a sacred meal. The Last Supper in Christianity is an example of a covenantal meal. 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 22:21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. (King James Bible, Luke) The concept of covenant plays a major role in Reformed theology. but I do not know its > arabic equivalent so I am not sure how big covenants are in Islam. There are two Arabic words which get translated as covenant, these are mithaq and ahd. I've written an article relating the Baha'i concept of Covenant with that of Islam. You can access it on my blog: http://bahai-islam.blogspot.com/ I wonder > if covenants are a big part of Babism too? Yes, most definitely. We see it in Tahirih's poetry as well. The poem "Speak the words, "Am I not your Lord?" is a reference to what Baha'is call the Most Great Covenant and Muslims call the Covenant of Alast. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483232-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Have they given a time frame for when women will be allowed on the UHJ (the one in Haifa, Israel)? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 12:50:20 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I do not know who they are? > Dear Stephen, Tony Lee is a Baha'i who lives in Los Angeles and runs Kalimat Press. More than twenty years ago he and a few other Baha'is wrote a paper entitled "The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith" wherein it was argued that women were excluded from service on Houses of Justice only as a temporary measure. Juan Cole is professor who withdrew from the Faith some fifteen years ago and wrote similar paper. Jensen's sIBC apparently got a hold of one or both of these papers and decided that women should be able to sit on the House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482459-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483229-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fasting and the defintion of sunrise and sunset
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Both muslims and baha's fast from sunrise to sunset on their fasting days. They do not define what they mean by the terminology 1. Civilian: The sun is just at the horzon (zero degrees) 2. Nautical: The sun is 12 degress below the horizon 3. Astronomical: The sun is 18 degrees below the horizon I have not read any Baha'i literature on the issue, but I have read a muslim webpage that the current majority of muslims who use the civilian system for their fasts are wrong. They do not specify nautical or astronomical specifically, but I am guessing astronomical. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483207-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://www.docstoc.com/docs/22028700/Bahai-Sects I found this neutral academic study of Baha'i sects via google.com From: Brent Poirier To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sat, January 23, 2010 1:56:55 AM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv The repetition of these statements made by the so-called Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant, and the hurt and shock we experience as we hear them, brings something to mind. There is a story -- now I cannot find the source of it -- of the time after the Passing of Baha'u'llah when the Covenant-breakers were working against Abdu'l-Baha, but He had not yet announced it to the Baha'i world. And at that time, pilgrims would come to the Holy Land, and the Covenant-breakers would invite a new pilgrim to come to the Mansion. They would throw a feast for him, and write poetry in his honor, flatter him -- and then, gradually instill questions about the integrity of Abdu'l-Baha. One day one of the Covenant-breakers came across Abdu'l-Baha and said that they had invited one of the recent pilgrims to Bahji and were holding a Feast in his honor, and would turn him against Abdu'l-Baha. Abdu'l-Baha smiled and said that they would not get this one; that they would see that their opposition to Abdu'l-Baha would only increase this believer's devotion to the Covenant, and make his love for Abdu'l-Baha even more extreme--and this is what happened. And it seems to me that this can be our response when we hear these accusations against the Hands of the Cause, who protected the Cause of God from the forces of hatred and selfishness -- if we take it properly, it can increase our love for them, and our devotion to the Covenant. When these shocks occur, when we hear these things, they can do us no harm if we pray, and turn to the Will and Testament. They can increase our devotion. I am not recommending, to the extent of one word, that we read Covenant-breaker literature. I think that is a foolish thing to do, and that we should put lots of distance between ourselves and such material. The House has warned us in the strongest possible terms against doing so. But when it comes our way without our asking, there is a healthy response. I personally don't think that in such instances, the best response is to hush things up. Rather, the forces of unity are so strong in the Faith, the light of the Covenant is so strong, that used properly, opposition simply strengthens it. Prayer and study of the Word will use the irritant as a stimulus, and build a protection. I have written a short piece about the preposterous and remarkably flimsy accusations against the Hands http://tinyurl.com/hands-cause based on passages from "The Ministry of the Custodians." The sweet-scented Hands of the Cause were as real and as true as they could be. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482641-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483206-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I do have some background in Abrahamic religions, but other than Judaism there is not much actual use of the word covenant, but I do not know its arabic equivalent so I am not sure how big covenants are in Islam. I wonder if covenants are a big part of Babism too? From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 12:59:45 AM Subject: Re: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Why is sectarianism such an issue for western religions? Dear Stephen, Another way of wording your question is why do the Abrahamic religions place so much stress on the Covenant. It is because we believe so strongly in the authority of revelation. We don't simply decide on the basis of our own reason what God is like or what He wants from us, rather He reveals His will to us. The Covenant is the way the integrity of that will is preserved. Ultimately firmness in the Covenant means that when God asks the question, "Am I not your Lord" we answer affirmatively instead of following our own imaginations. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482461-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483205-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, it is not related to the recent comments about "sects" which I think are a waste of time because the writings practically says that Bahá'í faith will never have sects (at least for 1000 years). And a long time of peace is promised in many religions, especially in the book of Revelations (a long time of peace only possible in a religion without sects). But, when we think in justice we could ask: why just now a religion can't be divided? the only response that come to my mind is because now people are madure and are prepared for that. Any of you have another ideas? Hasan ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-483199-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
