subject:"Bahai jihad\?"

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:02:48 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Gilberto:
> "The whole passage already looked sinister as is. I didn't remove any
> mitigating context."

Susan:
> Yes, you did. You left out the parts that make that passage make sense.

Gilberto:
Go back and look at the original post. I had put in the entire passage
uncut. And then I posted again with the parts which were Orwellian.

Gilberto: 
> "The specific examples given fall in those categories but there is no
> statement which explicitly puts a limit on what could be included in
> "righteous purpose"."

Susan:
> So? He gives the most reasonable examples there are and you call that
> Orwellian?

Gilberto:
No. What's Orwellian are the specific part of the passage which I
called Orwellian.

Peace

Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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RE: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-22 Thread Susan Maneck

I thought the laws were in the Aqdas?

Dear Gilberto,

Not all of them.


> Jihads are also justified to defend Muslims living in the Daru'l-Harb as
I'm
> sure you know, and bring their country into the Daru'l-Islam.

"Then that's ultimately a matter of saving lives."

It can be done according to Islamic laws if Muslims in a country feel they
are not free to live as Muslims, whether their lives are directly threatened
or not. But in any case, in the Baha'i Faith we cannot fight in the name of
our religion even if our lives are at stake.
.
"The whole passage already looked sinister as is. I didn't remove any
mitigating context."

Yes, you did. You left out the parts that make that passage make sense.

"The specific examples given fall in those categories but there is no
statement which explicitly puts a limit on what could be included in
"righteous purpose"."

So? He gives the most reasonable examples there are and you call that
Orwellian?

Susan


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

- Hide quoted text -
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:51:39 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics.

Gilberto:
> I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith
> which states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust
> ruler."

Susan:
> Dear Gilberto,
> Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If
> you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still
> forbidden to kill in the name of our religion.

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> "You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your
> religion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in your
> religion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in your
> religion."

Susan:
> There is a difference between a religion allowing or even calling for
> certain things and their being done in the name of religion.
>

 Gilberto:
> If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odd
> distinction to make.

Susan:
> I am not at all arguing about names 


Gilberto:
So what is the distinction you refer to between a religion allowing
certain things and their being done in the name of religion?


Peace


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:28:09 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? 
> Dear Gilberto, 
  
> By "Writings" I mean our scriptures; what we consider the Word of God.
> Baha'u'llah and the New Era is just a piece of secondary literature. 

Ok.

 
> "That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates on
> the concept in interesting ways as well."
  
> I think it is elaborating the concept of a 'just war' but as I said, that
> isn't the same as a holy war. 

> "I didn't say that they all can be. But in your paper you wrote:
> "Bahá'u'lláh regarded the application of any of his laws as contained
> in the Kitab-I-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of wisdom.""
  
> The prohibition against jihad is all over the Baha'i Writings, not just in
> the Aqdas. 

I thought the laws were in the Aqdas?


   
> "As far as I can
> tell, jihad only really makes sense in the context of a Muslim
> country."
  
> Jihads are also justified to defend Muslims living in the Daru'l-Harb as I'm
> sure you know, and bring their country into the Daru'l-Islam. 

Then that's ultimately a matter of saving lives.
. 
Gilberto: 
> "There is almost an Orwellian feel to this:
> "Conquest can be a praiseworthy thing... war becomes the powerful
> basis of peace.. seeming wrath is mercy itself.. apparent tyranny the
> very substance of justice.. warfare the cornerstone of peace.""
>
Susan:
> Sure, play with the ellipses and you can make almost anything look sinister.

Gilberto:
The whole passage already looked sinister as is. I didn't remove any
mitigating context. The eliipses only show how stylistically it is
similar to the slogans out of 1984.

Gilberto:
> "How do I know what the limitations are on the "righteous purpose"
> which justifies these sorts of actions for Abdul-Baha?"

Susan:
> Doesn't He lay that out fairly clearly? He is saying you can defend your
> country against attack or put down internal rebellion. 

Gilberto:
The specific examples given fall in those categories but there is no
statement which explicitly puts a limit on what could be included in
"righteous purpose".

Peace

Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:10:36 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> "So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative?"
> 
> It means it isn't.
> 
> __

So why did mark attribute it to the UHJ?

-GIlberto




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-- 


"My people are hydroponic"

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RE: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-22 Thread Susan Maneck



"So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative?"

It means it isn't.

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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:50:03 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> So where did the document come from?
> 
> Dear Gilberto,
> 
> It comes from the World Centre. It is just that the House didn't write it
> directly.
> 

So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative?

Peace

Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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RE: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-21 Thread Susan Maneck


So where did the document come from?

Dear Gilberto,

It comes from the World Centre. It is just that the House didn't write it
directly.

warmest, Susan


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Susan,

At 06:55 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>>A controversial question. Raising a black flag in Khurasan was bound to 
>>provoke violence. That's how the rebellion against the Umayyad Dynasty was 
>>launched, after all.<<

I guess it would depend on whether one interprets it as a provocation or as 
taking a stand. I suppose one could interpret it both ways. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad?

Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile
states, the principle of collective action in defence of peace
gradually took on the form of military interventions such as that of
the Gulf War, in which compliance with Security Council resolutions
was imposed by force on aggressor factions and states."
- Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p.72


On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:49:01 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 6:46:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are there
> other official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf War
> II?
> Dear Gilberto, 
>  
> That's the only one and it wasn't the House itself which wrote that
> document.


So where did the document come from?


> They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but
> that it represented the kind of collective security which the world needed
> to move towards. 


Fair enough.

-Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 12/26/2004 1:02:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  >>And is that really how 
the rule is stated? So you can get an abortion if your doctor says its okay? 
Or do they have to be medically necessary?<<
  I"t is left up to the individual to make a moral choice. The Baha`i Faith 
  is one in which the individual cannot abrogate his responsibilities to make 
  choices. The result of the choice is a matter between the individual and 
  God."
   
  Dear Scott, 
   
  What the Universal House of Justice has stated is that they are leaving 
  it to the woman and her doctor  *at this time.* That is not an 
  articulation of a principle. 
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad?

Hi, Susan,

At 06:49 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>>They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but that it 
>>represented the kind of collective security which the world needed to move 
>>towards.<<

In an earlier message, the House of Justice did refer to the Gulf War as just. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad?

Gilberto,

At 06:45 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>>So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are there other 
>>official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf War II? What do 
>>they say?<<

The House of Justice made an earlier statement in which it called the Gulf War 
"just." I haven't seen any similar comments about the Iraq War, and I 
personally doubt that there will be any. It would be difficult to call the Iraq 
War "collective security."

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 4:26:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Did the 
  Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against 
Muslims?

The Bab never waged jihad. His followers fought in His absence when He was 
imprisoned. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:00:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were 
  defensive actions against attacks by Muslims. 
   
  Dear Mark, 
   
  A controversial question. Raising a black flag in Khurasan was bound to 
  provoke violence. That's how the rebellion against the Umayyad Dynasty was 
  launched, after all. 
   
  warmest, Susan 
   

 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:09:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at 
  Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed 
  to fight back, according to the Law of 
Baha'u'llah?

No. 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:18:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think 
  that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.My 
  mistake.
Actually, I was thinking of both. 
  

 
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Re: Bahai jihad?




Dear James, 
 
A number of your quotations are taken from Divine Philosophy which more or 
less falls into the category of pilgrim's notes. But I think your understanding 
is both right and wrong. The very purpose of the Baha'i Faith is to bring about 
the unity of humanity and by it, an end to war. But that doesn't mean that we 
don't believe any country has a right to defend itself when attacked. 
 
warmest, 
 
Susan 
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Re: Bahai jihad?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 6:46:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So does 
  the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are thereother official 
  Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf 
WarII?

Dear Gilberto, 
 
That's the only one and it wasn't the House itself which wrote that 
document. They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but that 
it represented the kind of collective security which the world needed to move 
towards. In that sense, it is in startling contrast to this latest invasion of 
Iraq. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: Bahai jihad?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  would certainlyadmit that it has the potential to be abused 
  (virtually all rules do)but jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if 
  you really think itis necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then 
  you should takeit up with the author.

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  I should forewarn, Ahang here descends from a Zoroastrian family who 
  could tell you a great deal about how the jizya was imposed in practice. The 
  biggest barrier for Zoroastrians in accepting the Baha'i Faith was in having 
  to accept the prophethood of Muhammad as well. 
   
  *However*, Ahang, you should know that the Sasanians imposed this poll 
  tax long before Muslims did. 
   
  warmest, Susan 
  

 
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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:12:59 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> "Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile states, 
> the principle of collective action in defence of peace gradually took on the 
> form of military interventions such as that of the Gulf War, in which 
> compliance with Security Council resolutions was imposed by force on 
> aggressor factions and states."
> - Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p.72

So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are there
other official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf War
II? What do they say?

Peace

Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:31:34 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:25:40 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Secondly, the people being
> protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were
> members of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to begin
> with). 
> Really? And which of these traditional  jurists has written anything about
> jihad in defense of non-believers? Can you post something from
> them?_

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR26.6/elfadl.html

The other major issue on the point of tolerance in Islam is that of
the poll tax (jizyah) imposed on the People of Book (Christians and
Jews) who live in Muslim territory. When the Qur'an was revealed, it
was common inside and outside of Arabia to levy poll taxes against
alien groups. Building upon the historical practice, classical Muslim
jurists argued that the poll tax is money collected by the Islamic
polity from non-Muslims in return for the protection of the Muslim
state. If the Muslim state was incapable of extending such protection
to non-Muslims, it was not supposed to levy a poll tax. In fact, 'Umar
(r. 13-23/634-644), the second Rightly-Guided Caliph and close
companion of the Prophet, returned the poll tax to an Arab Christian
tribe that he was incapable of protecting from Byzantine aggression.

[end quote]

The following site has anumber of different passages. Remember that
"dhimmi" is a non-Muslim under the protection of the Muslim state.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/History/jizya-islam.htm

When Khalid Ibn Al-Walid conquered Damascus, he wrote a similar treaty
to its people.

"In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate and Most Gracious.  This
is the covenant granted by Khalid Ibn Al-Walid to the people of
Damascus if he enters it.  They will be secure regarding their lives,
property and churches.  The fence of the city may not be demolished
and no house owned by them may be dispossessed or inhibited.  This is
the covenant of Allah and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and
blessings be upon him, the Caliphs and the believers.  They are to be
well-treated conditional upon their payment of jizya."[19]
'Abada Ibn Al-Samit records these civilized features of jizya in Islam
when depicting the Islamic stance vis-Ã-vis Al-Muqawqas, the king of
the Copts:

"Either to embrace Islam...if you and your companions accept this,
you'll have attained the happiness of both this life and the
after-life and we will not fight you and will never injure you or
aggress you.  However if you refuse, you have to pay jizya.  Pay us
the jizya and we will agree on a sum satisfactory to both of us to be
collected every year so long as we and you remain.  Thus we will
defend you and fight your enemies or those who violate your lands,
lives and property and we will undertake this duty so long as you are
in our dhimma and so long as a covenant is binding on us towards
you..."[20]
Again it is noticeable that the Muslim sacrifices his life to protect
the people of jizya and their property "We will defend youâ"

In maintenance and protection of a dhimmi's property, Shari'a does not
differentiate between a dhimmi's property and a Muslim's property.  So
stealing a dhimmi's property is punished for by amputation even if it
were a Muslim's hand.  Al-Qurtubi says:

"A dhimmis' life is perpetually inviolable and so is a Muslim's life
and both have become people of the House of Islam.  The evidence of
this is that a Muslim's hand is amputated if he steals a dhimmi's
property.  Therefore, a dhimm's life would by analogy be as inviolable
as a Muslim's life as property derives its inviolability from the
inviolability of its owner."[30]
Al-Mawardi says: 

"And he -â an Imam -- is bound to ensure two rights for them; first,
to save and spare their lives and second, to protect them so that they
would  be secure by being spared and guarded by being protected."[31]
Al-Nawawi said: 

"We must spare their lives and indemnify them against any damage
caused by us to their lives and property.  We are also committed to
defend them against the people of war."[32]
Muslim jurisprudents reiterated this concept. Ibn Al-Najar Al-Hanbali says: 

"An Imam must protect the people of dhimma, deter those who injure
them and defend them against those who seek to harm them."[33]
When the Mongolian general Qatloushah invaded Damascus in the early
eighth century Hijri and imprisoned Muslims as well as Christian and
Jewish dhimmis, Imam Ibn Taimiyyah went to him with an august of
scholars claiming the release of the prisoners. The general agreed on
releasing the Muslims exclusively.  Sheikh-ul-Islam, then replied:

"All prisoners including Jews and Christians who are in our dhimma
must be released and we will never let any prisoner with you including
Muslims and dhimmis. Dhimmis are equal to Muslims as regards rights
and duties."
So the Mongolian general released them all.[34]

Al-Qarafi quotes Imam Ibn Hazm who in tu

Re: Bahai jihad?

James,

At 05:41 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>>Can someone please point out where any type of warfare is condoned?<<

"If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the 
onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and 
distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in 
brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is 
mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this 
warfare the cornerstone of peace." 
-- `Abdu'l-Baha:  Secret of Divine Civilization, p.71

"This nation, moreover, may well claim to have, as a result of its effective 
participation in both the first and second world wars, redressed the balance, 
saved mankind the horrors of devastation and bloodshed involved in the 
prolongation of hostilities, and decisively contributed, in the course of the 
latter conflict, to the overthrow of the exponents of ideologies fundamentally 
at variance with the universal tenets of our Faith."
-- Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p.35

"Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile states, 
the principle of collective action in defence of peace gradually took on the 
form of military interventions such as that of the Gulf War, in which 
compliance with Security Council resolutions was imposed by force on aggressor 
factions and states."
- Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p.72

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:34:27 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 
> You ought to be kidding!  "Jizya" was a tax imposed on minority religions 
> as a way to harass and contain them, and to ensure they were kept  
> economically dirt poor! 
> I have lived in many parts of the world with Muslim majority and in all those
> places the tyranny of Muslims towards the minority groups was most evident.


Gilberto:
>From what I've read, the amount of jizya varied alot in Islamic
history. At some points it was large, at some points it was small and
nominal. The best explanation I've heard for it is that it literally
was protection-money in the sense that non-Muslims would be exempt
from jihad but they still benefitted from protection by the state so
they gave money to compensate for it. When non-Muslims participated in
jihad they would often be exempted from the jizya. I would certainly
admit that it has the potential to be abused (virtually all rules do)
but jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think it
is necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should take
it up with the author.

Peace

Gilberto

-- 


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-21 Thread James Mock

Dear Friends,
Can someone please point out where any type of warfare is condoned?
It occurs to this mind that many statements have been made opposing war, 
such as

In the new age Baha'o'llah has prohibited war.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 45)
Every war is against the good pleasure of the Lord of mankind, for man is 
the edifice of God and war destroys the divine edifice.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 85)
Had the principles of unity, taught by the Christ, remained in the hearts, 
men would have refrained from war.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 100)
Now, in such a shining age when the realities have become manifest and the 
mysteries of the universe are disclosed, the morn of Truth has dawned and 
the world is illuminated - is it allowable that such dreadful war should 
occur to throw the world of humanity into manifest loss? No, by God!

(Abdu'l-Baha, Letter to Martha Root)
A Supreme Tribunal shall be elected by the peoples and governments of every 
nation, where members from each country and government shall assemble in 
unity. All disputes shall be brought before this Court, its mission being to 
prevent war.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 132)
The following quote is often used to suggest that there is such thing as a 
just war:

The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed 
that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the 
governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the 
human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to 
destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to 
the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will 
remain eternally safe and secure.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 64)
But to this mind, as strong as that quote is (with every power at its 
disposal, to destroy that government), it does not specifically mention 
war.  Is it not possible that jointly enforced sanctions could be 
intended?  Or are there some other quotations that this one has overlooked 
that specifically sanction war?

Does arise equate to war against.?
James

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:17:23 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto,
> 
> At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
> >>That's really not funny.<<
> 
> By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that 
> Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.

My mistake.


Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

>>Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at 
>>Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed 
>>to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah?
>>I'll answer it myself... No.<<

I agree. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-21 Thread JS

"Mark A. Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?<

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

>>Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against 
>>Muslims?<<

Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were defensive 
actions against attacks by Muslims. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-21 Thread JS

Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?"Mark A. Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto,At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:>>That's really not funny.<

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto,

At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>>That's really not funny.<<

By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan 
had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:25:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Secondly, the people beingprotected would also definitely include 
  the non-Muslims who weremembers of the community. (That's what the jizya 
  is for to beginwith). 

Really? And which of these traditional  jurists has written 
anything about jihad in defense of non-believers? Can you post something from 
them?
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:20:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If 
  you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odddistinction to 
  make.

I am not at all arguing about names and I have a difficult time figuring 
out why you find this so hard to grasp. Islam has both jihad and hudud 
penalities. They are in no way regarded as the same thing. That they can both 
result in death is really not relevant. 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? 
  

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  By "Writings" I mean our scriptures; what we consider the Word of God. 
  Baha'u'llah and the New Era is just a piece of secondary literature. 
  "That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates 
  onthe concept in interesting ways as well."
   
  I think it is elaborating the concept of a 'just war' but as I said, that 
  isn't the same as a holy war. "I didn't say that they all can be. But in 
  your paper you wrote:"Bahá'u'lláh regarded the application of any of his 
  laws as containedin the Kitab-I-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of 
  wisdom.""
   
  The prohibition against jihad is all over the Baha'i Writings, not just 
  in the Aqdas. 
   
  "In no way shape or form, does Islam permit random Muslims to just 
  goaround killing innocent folks and calling it "jihad". "
   
  Did anyone imply it did? 
   
  "As far as I cantell, jihad only really makes sense in the context of 
  a Muslimcountry."
   
  Jihads are also justified to defend Muslims living in the Daru'l-Harb as 
  I'm sure you know, and bring their country into the Daru'l-Islam. They are not 
  just waged for the purpose of protecting the Daru'l-Islam. > "I 
  find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving> 
  violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause> 
  Bahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war"."> You may find it 
  easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their> actions 
  were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself. 
  "There is almost an Orwellian feel to this:"Conquest can be a 
  praiseworthy thing... war becomes the powerfulbasis of peace.. seeming 
  wrath is mercy itself.. apparent tyranny thevery substance of justice.. 
  warfare the cornerstone of peace.""
   
  Sure, play with the ellipses and you can make almost anything look 
  sinister. "How do I know what the limitations are on the "righteous 
  purpose"which justifies these sorts of actions for Abdul-Baha?"
   
  Doesn't He lay that out fairly clearly? He is saying you can defend your 
  country against attack or put down internal rebellion. >To 
  understand what you (or Bahaullah) is saying was blotted out, sothat I can 
  better evaluate whether the Bahai faith is saying anythingdifferent or 
  better (or worse)<
   
  Why don't you put up all the quotes from the Qur'an that deal with holy 
  war, Gilberto. I think they pretty much all apply, but let's see them 
  all. " I've read what "my" Quran says on the subject."
   
  Okay, why don't you post them then. I'll find any that you leave out. 
  ;-}
   
  warmest, Susan 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its distortions)which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts ofcollective security, "righteous" warfare, and hikmat.In particular, why would the application of hikmat by limited toexclude the possibility of "holy war"?
Let's look for a clear example:
Years ago Hindus were attacking mosques and vice versa in India. Here we have a case of one community attacking another for religous purposes. Both sides felt perfectly comnfortable taking up arms to defendthe faith. Baha`u'llah would not allow Baha`i's to take up arms in defense from an attack based on religious grounds.
Note there is another difference here. No political state is involved. It is NOT a case of one nation invading another.
THe international peace described by Baha`u'llah is nations coming together to find ways to support one another in the face of bloody agression. Nations are composed of believers of many faiths in most instances. Here clearly one nation invades another and religious reasons are not the root cause - the root cause is belligerence and a desire to acheive nationalistic goals.
Under the guidance of Baha`u'llah the aggressing nation is committing a crime against peace and ALL the nations are required to come to the aid of the nation invaded. Why? Because such a common defense would deter warfare after the first time it was successfully invoked. Aggressors would realize there is no profit in aggression.
This has very little to do with religion.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?




In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:33:49 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So are you saying that Christ already taught non-resistance. But thenunder Muhammad's dispensation the community progressed past it? Thenthe Bahai dispensation went backwards to what Christ taught?
"> Hitherto the usual practice of mankind has been that if one nation attacked> another, the rest of the nations of the world remained neutral, and accepted> no responsibility in the matter unless their own interests were directly> affected or threatened. The whole burden of defense was left to the nation> attacked, however weak and helpless it might be. The teaching of Bahá'u'lláh> reverses this position and throws the responsibility of defense not> specially on the nation attacked, but on all the others, individually and> collectively. As the whole of mankind is one community, an attack on any one> nation is an attack on the community, and ought to be dealt with by the> community. Were this doctrine generally recognized and acted on, any nation> contemplating an aggression on another would know in advance that it would> have to reckon with the opposition not of that other nation only, but of the> whole of the rest of the world. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to> deter even the boldest and most bellicose of nations. When a sufficiently> strong league of peace-loving nations is established war will, there, become> a thing of the past. "
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Re: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-21 Thread Ahang Rabbani

> Secondly, the people being
> protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were
> members of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to begin
> with). So perhaps I should have been clearer but the state would have
> the obligation to protect the lives of all its citizens regardless of
> religion.

You ought to be kidding!  "Jizya" was a tax imposed on minority religions as a
way to harass and contain them, and to ensure they were kept economically dirt
poor!

I have lived in many parts of the world with Muslim majority and in all those
places the tyranny of Muslims towards the minority groups was most evident.

Ahang. 

  




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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:25:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:21:10 PM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odd
> distinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardless of
> whose "name" they've been done in.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Gilberto
> Here's the first couple paragraphs from the section of Baha`u'llah and the
> New Era. I think it makes clear the difference of war for religion and war
> to defend nations against invasion. I highlight in red one concluding
> statement.


So are you saying that Christ already taught non-resistance. But then
under Muhammad's dispensation the community progressed past it? Then
the Bahai dispensation went backwards to what Christ taught?



>  
> " 
> 1
> 
> Although Bahá'u'lláh, like Christ, counsels His follows as individuals and
> as a religious body to adopt an attitude of nonresistance and forgiveness
> toward their enemies, He teaches that it is the duty of the community to
> prevent injustice and oppression. If individuals are persecuted and injured
> it is wrong for a community to allow pillage and murder to continue
> unchecked within its borders. It is the duty of a good government to prevent
> wrongdoing and to punish offenders. [1] So also with the community of
> nations. If one nation oppresses or injures another, it is the duty of all
> other nations to unite to prevent such oppression. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes: --
> "It may happen that at a given time warlike and savage tribes may furiously
> attack the body politic with the intention of carrying on a wholesale
> slaughter of its members; under such a circumstance defense is necessary."  
> 2
> 
> Hitherto the usual practice of mankind has been that if one nation attacked
> another, the rest of the nations of the world remained neutral, and accepted
> no responsibility in the matter unless their own interests were directly
> affected or threatened. The whole burden of defense was left to the nation
> attacked, however weak and helpless it might be. The teaching of Bahá'u'lláh
> reverses this position and throws the responsibility of defense not
> specially on the nation attacked, but on all the others, individually and
> collectively. As the whole of mankind is one community, an attack on any one
> nation is an attack on the community, and ought to be dealt with by the
> community. Were this doctrine generally recognized and acted on, any nation
> contemplating an aggression on another would know in advance that it would
> have to reckon with the opposition not of that other nation only, but of the
> whole of the rest of the world. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to
> deter even the boldest and most bellicose of nations. When a sufficiently
> strong league of peace-loving nations is established war will, there, become
> a thing of the past. During the period of transition from the old state of
> international anarchy to the new state of international solidarity
> aggressive wars will still be possible, and in these circumstances, military
> or other coercive action in the cause of international justice, unity and
> peace may be a positive duty. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes that in such case: -- "
> " 
> 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes
> the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If,
> for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset
> of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and
> distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if,
> in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath
> is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and
> this warfare the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great
> rulers is to establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all
> peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. "
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Scott__ 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?




In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:29:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Do you understand what I'm asking?
Yes. 
 
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:11:11 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your
> religion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in your
> religion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in your
> religion.

> Islam speaks of war in defense of Islam as "Holy War."
>  

Where?

> Baha`u'llah expressly forbids such a holy war.

What does it mean to go to war "in defense of Islam" which is seperate
from defending a country from attack or saving lives?

Do you understand what I'm asking?


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:21:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odddistinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardless ofwhose "name" they've been done in.PeaceGilberto
Here's the first couple paragraphs from the section of Baha`u'llah and the New Era. I think it makes clear the difference of war for religion and war to defend nations against invasion. I highlight in red one concluding statement.
"

Although Bahá'u'lláh, like Christ, counsels His follows as individuals and as a religious body to adopt an attitude of nonresistance and forgiveness toward their enemies, He teaches that it is the duty of the community to prevent injustice and oppression. If individuals are persecuted and injured it is wrong for a community to allow pillage and murder to continue unchecked within its borders. It is the duty of a good government to prevent wrongdoing and to punish offenders. [1] So also with the community of nations. If one nation oppresses or injures another, it is the duty of all other nations to unite to prevent such oppression. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes: -- "It may happen that at a given time warlike and savage tribes may furiously attack the body politic with the intention of carrying on a wholesale slaughter of its members; under such a circumstance defense is necessary."

Hitherto the usual practice of mankind has been that if one nation attacked another, the rest of the nations of the world remained neutral, and accepted no responsibility in the matter unless their own interests were directly affected or threatened. The whole burden of defense was left to the nation attacked, however weak and helpless it might be. The teaching of Bahá'u'lláh reverses this position and throws the responsibility of defense not specially on the nation attacked, but on all the others, individually and collectively. As the whole of mankind is one community, an attack on any one nation is an attack on the community, and ought to be dealt with by the community. Were this doctrine generally recognized and acted on, any nation contemplating an aggression on another would know in advance that it would have to reckon with the opposition not of that other nation only, but of the whole of the rest of the world. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to deter even the boldest and most bellicose of nations. When a sufficiently strong league of peace-loving nations is established war will, there, become a thing of the past. During the period of transition from the old state of international anarchy to the new state of international solidarity aggressive wars will still be possible, and in these circumstances, military or other coercive action in the cause of international justice, unity and peace may be a positive duty. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes that in such case: -- "
"

A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. "
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:50:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> "So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between
> "defending the religion" and "defending the country"."

Susan:
> It was in your own statement. Your traditional jurists consider it a holy
> war to defend those that share their own religion.

Gilberto:
Firstly, I didn't call it a holy war. Secondly, the people being
protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were
members of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to begin
with). So perhaps I should have been clearer but the state would have
the obligation to protect the lives of all its citizens regardless of
religion.

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:51:39 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics.

Gilberto:
> I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith
> which states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust
> ruler."

> Dear Gilberto,
> Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If
> you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still
> forbidden to kill in the name of our religion.


> In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> "You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your
> religion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in your
> religion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in your
> religion."
>  
> Dear Gilberto, 
>  
> There is a difference between a religion allowing or even calling for
> certain things and their being done in the name of religion. 
>  


If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odd
distinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardless of
whose "name" they've been done in.

Peace

Gilberto




"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?




In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates onthe concept in interesting ways as well.
No, it is not. It is by a Baha`i named J. E. Esslemont and CONTAINS writings from the Central Figures of the Faith, but it is not scripture by any means.
 
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:42:57 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> > Where did the word 'righteous' come from? 

> In "Bahaullah and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called
> "Righteous Warfare"

> Okay. The term 'righteous warfare' occurs nowhere in the Writings which is
> why I didn't recognize it.

Gilberto:
Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? 

That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates on
the concept in interesting ways as well.

Susan:
> I prefer to use the term 'just war.'  The concept
> which Abdu'l-Baha articulates is something which goes back at least as far
> as St. Augustine. 

Gilberto:
Sure. Many civilizations, including Islamic civilization, have some
principles or criteria which specificy in what sorts of situations
warfare is justified and when it isn't.  That's all military "jihad"
is, from a certain point of view.

 Gilberto:
> "In your own paper, you said " In many cases hikmat calls for the
> apparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure the
> protection of the Faith.""

Susan:
> Yes, that would be an obvious not an apparent suspension. And because 
> some Baha'i principles can be suspended, doesn't mean they all can.

Gilberto:
I didn't say that they all can be. But in your paper you wrote:
"Bahá'u'lláh regarded the application of any of his laws as contained
in the Kitab-I-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of wisdom."

> As I said,
> you are taking a hypothetical which has never occurred and trying to argue
> on that basis that we say the same thing as Islam. You could use hikmat to
> argue anything at all by that logic! 

Gilberto:
In no way shape or form, does Islam permit random Muslims to just go
around killing innocent folks and calling it "jihad". As far as I can
tell, jihad only really makes sense in the context of a Muslim
country. If we want to compare Islamic teachings on jihad (just war)
and Bahai teachings on just war, it only makes sense that we make a
comparison between a Muslim country and a Bahai country. If you guys
don't have a country, that's not my fault.

> "I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving
> violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause
> Bahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war"."

> You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their
> actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself. 

And if that were the only thing that the Bahai central figures said
about the uses of violence I think your case would be more convincing.

But in other writings Abdul-Baha says things like:

"A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war
becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of
reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his
troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or
again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle
to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war
for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and
this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare
the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to
establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all
peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. "

[end quote]

There is almost an Orwellian feel to this:
"Conquest can be a praiseworthy thing... war becomes the powerful
basis of peace.. seeming wrath is mercy itself.. apparent tyranny the
very substance of justice.. warfare the cornerstone of peace."

How do I know what the limitations are on the "righteous purpose"
which justifies these sorts of actions for Abdul-Baha?

>  
> "That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for it
> to be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under the
> dispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use of
> force under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think I"ve heard a
> clear Bahai statement about the first case."

Susan:

> Why do you need a 'Baha'i' statement in the first place?

Gilberto:
To understand what you (or Bahaullah) is saying was blotted out, so
that I can better evaluate whether the Bahai faith is saying anything
different or better (or worse)

Susan:
> Don't you know what  your Qur'an has to say on the subject? Do you need > us 
> to post the relevant quotations? 

Gilberto:
Feel free. I've read what "my" Quran says on the subject. But
remember, it's "your" Quran too, at least that's what Bahais keep
telling me.

-Gilberto
"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:15:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1903, 
  not 1906.

Oops, sorry. I always associate with the Constitutional Revolution. 

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  "You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to 
  yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in 
  yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in 
  yourreligion."
   
  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  There is a difference between a religion allowing or even calling for 
  certain things and their being done in the name of religion. 
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Pretty much every discussion of physical jihad I've seen from 
  atraditional/orthodox persepctive talks about it in the context 
  ofdefending Muslim lands and lives
   
  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  When it comes to defending lives and land Baha'is would not make a 
  distinction between Baha'is or non-Baha'is, except we will not fight to defend 
  ourselves against those who persecute us in the name of religion. But if a Jew 
  were attacked for his religion, I might well defend him. 
   
  "So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish 
  between"defending the religion" and "defending the 
  country"."

  It was in your own statement. Your traditional jurists consider it 
  a holy war to defend those that share their own religion. It might well 
  be a 'just' war for a Baha'i to defend those who are oppressed but we make no 
  distinction on the basis of their religion except for our not defending 
  ourselves such as you just made. 
   
  warmest, Susan 
   
   

 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  > Where did the word 'righteous' come from? In "Bahaullah 
  and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called"Righteous 
Warfare"
   
  Okay. The term 'righteous warfare' occurs nowhere in the Writings which 
  is why I didn't recognize it. I prefer to use the term 'just war.'  The 
  concept which Abdu'l-Baha articulates is something which goes back at least as 
  far as St. Augustine. "In your own paper, you said " In many cases 
  hikmat calls for theapparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to 
  ensure theprotection of the Faith.""
   
  Yes, that would be an obvious not an apparent suspension. And because 
  some Baha'i principles can be suspended, doesn't mean they all can. As I said, 
  you are taking a hypothetical which has never occurred and trying to argue on 
  that basis that we say the same thing as Islam. You could use hikmat to argue 
  anything at all by that logic! "I find it easy to believe that life or 
  death situations involvingviolence and persecution might be the kind of 
  thing which could causeBahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy 
  war"."
   
  You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this 
  their actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself with these word: 
  
   
  "My imprisonment doeth Me no harm, neither the tribulations I 
  suffer, nor the things that have befallen Me at the hands of My oppressors. 
  That which harmeth Me is the conduct of those who, though they bear My name, 
  yet commit that which maketh My heart and My pen to lament."
   
  I don't think any Baha'i would want to do this. 
   
  "That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for 
  itto be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under 
  thedispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use 
  offorce under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think I"ve heard 
  aclear Bahai statement about the first case."
   
  Why do you need a 'Baha'i' statement in the first place? Don't you know 
  what your Qur'an has to say on the subject? Do you need us to post the 
  relevant quotations? warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-21 Thread Ahang Rabbani

1903, not 1906.


--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>  
> In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> 
> I  think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í 
> reference.
> Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better  definition?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect. For instance during the  
> massacres of Yazd in 1906 Baha'is were compelled to celebrate the martyrdom
> of  
> their fellow believers, opening their shops and putting out colored lights
> lest  
> they too be identified and killed. 
>  
> warmest, Susan 
> 
> 
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> 




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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?




In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:39 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in yourreligion.
Islam speaks of war in defense of Islam as "Holy War."
 
Baha`u'llah expressly forbids such a holy war.
 
Collective security is about world peace, not the defense of the faith.
 
We leave that to God.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:43:07 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> > "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. 
 
> I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith
> which states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust
> ruler."
 

> Dear Gilberto,   
> Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If
> you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still
> forbidden to kill in the name of our religion.

You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your
religion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in your
religion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in your
religion.

-Gilberto

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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:19:31 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> "So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't absolutely
> exclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defend
> themselves and fight non-Bahais."

> Dear Gilberto,   
> They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so
> in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for
> sure. 

Pretty much every discussion of physical jihad I've seen from a
traditional/orthodox persepctive talks about it in the context of
defending Muslim lands and lives, typically under a proper khalifah.
So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between
"defending the religion" and "defending the country".

And since you aren't certain whether the Bahai faith would permit a
Bahai country to defend itself or not in the hypothetical scenario I
described, then
that would be a significant area concrete where you really can't say
for sure that Bahai teachings are any more peaceful or closer to
pacifism than Islamic teachings on jihad.

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
  "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I could actually 
  say the same about jihad then. There is a hadithwhich states: ""The best 
  jihad is speaking the truth to an 
unjustruler."

Dear Gilberto, 
 
Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If 
you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still 
forbidden to kill in the name of our religion, and that is not true of Islam. 

 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:16:25 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:43 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> "What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its distortions)
> which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts of
> collective security, "righteous" warfare, and hikmat."

Susan:  
> Where did the word 'righteous' come from? 

In "Bahaullah and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called
"Righteous Warfare"

http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/BNE/BNE-136.html


> "In particular, why would the application of hikmat by limited to
> exclude the possibility of "holy war"?"

 
> Because Baha'u'llah said so.

In your own paper, you said " In many cases hikmat calls for the
apparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure the
protection of the Faith."

I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving
violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause
Bahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war".

> It is silly to come up with hypothetical to
> suggest that Baha'i Teachings are no different than Islam in this respect. 
>  

That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for it
to be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under the
dispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use of
force under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think I"ve heard a
clear Bahai statement about the first case.

Peace
 
Gilberto



"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:43:05 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:33 A.M. Central Standard Time,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:10:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> I think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í reference.
> Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better definition?

Susan:
> Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect.


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> What is the distinction you are making between "protecting" and "defending"?
> Dear Gilberto, 

Susan:  
> "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. 

I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith
which states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust
ruler."

Susan:
> I'm talking about what
> could be life and death matters. 

Gilberto: 
> "And could "protecting" the faith include military action?"
>  
> No. 

Gilberto:
Now, what you are saying is sounding more confused.

Here's the clearest way I can think of "asking" the question: Which
specific actions (uses of force) were permitted by God under the
dispensation of Muhammad, but which are clearly, absolutely,
categorically prohibited under the dispensation of Bahaullah;
prohibited under "righteous warfare", prohibited under collective
security, prohibited even using "hikmat"?


Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad?




In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:20:38 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Dear Gilberto, 
 
They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for sure. 
 
Waging war in defense of  our religion is forbidden, period. 
 
warmest, Susan__ 
Defending one's country when invaded isone thng to call it Holy War would be another thing entirely.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  "So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't 
  absolutelyexclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to 
  defendthemselves and fight non-Bahais."

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to 
  do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say 
  for sure. 
   
  Waging war in defense of  our religion is forbidden, period. 
  
   
  warmest, Susan
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  You still haven't convincinglyexplained or shown why there would be 
  any morally significantdifference between the "holy wars" carried out 
  under the leadership ofthe prophet Muhammad or Imam Hussein and the 
  analagous practicespermitted in the Bahai.

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  We do not have analogous practices. 
  "What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its 
  distortions)which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts 
  ofcollective security, "righteous" warfare, and hikmat."
   
  Where did the word 'righteous' come from? As I told you before we do not 
  fight in the defense of our religion, period. "In particular, why 
  would the application of hikmat by limited toexclude the possibility of 
  "holy war"?"
   
  Because Baha'u'llah said so. It is silly to come up with hypothetical to 
  suggest that Baha'i Teachings are no different than Islam in this respect. 
  
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  What is the distinction you are making between "protecting" and 
  "defending"?

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I'm talking about 
  what could be life and death matters. 
  "And could "protecting" the faith include military action?"
   
  No. 
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:13:25 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

[hypothetical situation of  a small group of Bahai countries being
attacked by a coaliion of fundamentalist countries on religious
grounds]

Gilberto: 
> So would it be permissible for the Bahai country to fight back?

> Dear Gilberto, 

Susan:  
> That would be a question for the House of Justice to answer. 

Gilberto:
So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't absolutely
exclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defend
themselves and fight non-Bahais.


> "If the Bahai country fought back, would that be considered a holy war?"
>  
> No. 

So if a Muslim country is attacked, and defends itself, would THAT be
considered a holy war?

-Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:18:34 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> But when Bahais make a big deal out say that "holy war" has been
> abrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful,
> or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when
> there are significant exceptions which make that untrue.
> Dear Gilberto, 

> Not necessarily all religions, just the one that immediately proceeded us.
> ;-}

Gilberto:
That's really not funny. And you certainly picked my comments out of
context and ignored the main point. You still haven't convincingly
explained or shown why there would be any morally significant
difference between the "holy wars" carried out under the leadership of
the prophet Muhammad or Imam Hussein and the analagous practices
permitted in the Bahai.

What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its distortions)
which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts of
collective security, "righteous" warfare, and hikmat.

In particular, why would the application of hikmat by limited to
exclude the possibility of "holy war"?

Gilberto:
>  "But on further examination, it seems like the Bahai claims aren't
> significantly different. And the two main examples which come to mind
> are gender equality and the use of force."

Susan:
> I think one only has to look at the relative status of women in these
> respective communities to see there is a very real difference indeed. 

Gilberto:
If you "only look" and you don't think about why things are the way
the are then one can often end up making lazy sorts of self-serving
mistakes. I'm not saying you in particular, but I think it is tempting
for alot of Bahais to uncritically assume, embrace, encourage and
celebrate stereotypes about Muslims, and not look at changes in Muslim
societies over time, not look at the effects of economics, education,
politics, colonialism, not even think about Muslims in the West etc.
in order to try to say that Islam is inferior.

In your own paper, when the Bahais set up in Chicago, the American
women already had more progressive ideas about gender equality than
were allowed by the faith. They seemed to be chomping at the bit.

And as far as use of force goes you still haven't given a straight answer.

-Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:10:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> I think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í reference.
> Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better definition?

Susan:  
> Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect.


Dear Susan,

What is the distinction you are making between "protecting" and "defending"?
And could "protecting" the faith include military action?

 Peace

Gilberto


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-20 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Susan,

At 01:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:
>>I don't recall the Guardian referring to a woman's physician in this context 
>>though I'm aware the House of Justice has. Do you have a reference?<<

I looked around for it, but I could not find it. That statement was, I believe, 
in a letter written on behalf of the Guardian (though it may have been the 
House of Justice). It was in a compilation put together under the auspices of 
the American NSA back in the 70s. It is not in _Lights of Guidance_.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman 

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 12/25/2004 6:02:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Although Shoghi Effendi said that abortions should not be permitted 
  unless authorized by the woman's physician
   
  Dear Mark, 
   
  I don't recall the Guardian referring to a woman's physician in this 
  context though I'm aware the House of Justice has. Do you have a reference? 
  
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:46:40 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
it's 
  true that the early, formative years of the Babí andBahá'í Faith were 
  characterized by a good deal of violence and bloodshed

Babi, not Baha'i. 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  But when Bahais make a big deal out say that "holy war" has 
  beenabrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more 
  peaceful,or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. 
  whenthere are significant exceptions which make that 
  untrue.

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  Not necessarily all religions, just the one that immediately proceeded 
  us. ;-}
  We are not as pacifistic as Jains, for instance. 
  "Alot of times I get the impression that Bahai self-descriptions 
  givethe impression of being significantly and substantially different 
  fromIslam."
   
  On this issue I think we are. Baha'u'llah's prohibition of jihad was made 
  within an Islamic context, after all. 
   
   "But on further examination, it seems like the Bahai claims 
  aren'tsignificantly different. And the two main examples which come to 
  mindare gender equality and the use of force."
   
  I think one only has to look at the relative status of women in these 
  respective communities to see there is a very real difference indeed. 
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad?





In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Butthey see the Bahai faith as a threat to their worldview, 
  theirculture, their religion. And as a response, several countries led 
  byreligious militant fundamentalists join together an attack the 
  fewBahai countries which exist.So would it be permissible for the 
  Bahai country to fight back?

  Dear Gilberto, 
   
  That would be a question for the House of Justice to answer. 
  "If the Bahai country fought back, would that be considered a holy 
  war?"
   
  No. 
   
  warmest, Susan 

 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?





In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I 
  think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í 
  reference.Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better 
  definition? 

Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect. For instance during the 
massacres of Yazd in 1906 Baha'is were compelled to celebrate the martyrdom of 
their fellow believers, opening their shops and putting out colored lights lest 
they too be identified and killed. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-13 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto:
In some neighborhoods, teenagers will kill one another because someone
is wearing a red bandana instead of a blue bandana (and vice versa in
certain other neighborhoods). This doesn't prove that bandana color is
a fundamental essential issue.

I spent ten years as a paramedic in Chicago stuffing them into body
bags. It's a good anology. I hope haven't given the impression that I
think that kind of factionalism is acceptable, or that I think it is
Islamic. I just note that it exists.

What I'm trying to say is that some groups of Shias (namely Zaydis) as
Shias, are still able to be ok with the fact that Abu Bakr was the
khalifa. On the other hand there are some Sunnis (especially from a
Sufi background) who have a very high regard for Ali and believe he
was correct in the disagreement with Muawiya and that Muawiya was
incorrect. What I'm trying to say is that there is room for some
middle ground.

I agree. I grow concerned though when I'm told by the admistrator
at my daughter's school that there is a huge issue at a local mosque
about banning Shi's from attending. The administrator is Sunni and
aghast that this is occurring. Like myself, she doesn't think it's
Islamic either, but it is there. The point I was trying to make was
that there is an essential difference between how twelver Shi'ism views
the station of the Imam and how Sunni view the Caliph, but I think it
doesn't have to divide Islam anymore than how Roman Catholics and
Eastern Orthodox view the Bishop of Rome.

Ok. So what is the difference between saying that Ali was infallible
and saying that he was a Perfect Man?

Sneaky! :-). There may not be. Do all Sunni regard Ali as a perfect man, and by this I mean infallible in religious pronouncements?

Rich

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-12 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:14:56 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Gilberto:
> Shia and Sunni disagree about certain issues but I'm not
> persuaded that the issues are fundemnantal or essential. 

>  Well, you may
> be in a minority here. Sunni are killing Shi'a in India and they are
> persecuted in Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a whole other kettle of worms.

Gilberto:
In some neighborhoods, teenagers will kill one another because someone
is wearing a red bandana instead of a blue bandana (and vice versa in
certain other neighborhoods). This doesn't prove that bandana color is
a fundamental essential issue.

What I'm trying to say is that some groups of Shias (namely Zaydis) as
Shias, are still able to be ok with the fact that Abu Bakr was the
khalifa. On the other hand there are some Sunnis (especially from a
Sufi background) who have a very high regard for Ali and believe he
was correct in the disagreement with Muawiya and that Muawiya was
incorrect. What I'm trying to say is that there is room for some
middle ground.

Gilberto:
> If Bahais can try to
present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism,
> Zorastrianism,
etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent differences
> between them,
then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and Shias is a
> walk in
the park. 



Rich:
  I don't reconcile them. I say that there founders
> taught the same Faith, which has gone through a cosmic game of telephone
> over the decades, but that each has retained enough of the truth to
> recognize the next Prophet if they try. I also say that enough of their
> writings have gone down through the ages to make a credible interpretation
> of monotheism. I also believe that Muslims have gone through the same
> telephone game, I just don't think God minds as much as we do.
> 
 
>  There is not a consensus that he was infallible. Among Sunnis, no. The
> Shi'a I know all seem to think so.
> It is generally
thought that he was correct in his disagreement with
> Muawiya. And its
not like there is a sunni list floating around of "Imam
> Ali's top 10
mistakes". AS I said before, he could be considered a kind of
> saint
and might even be a Perfect Man.   




Rich:
> You still are beating around the
> bush. Let me put it this way. The Shi'a and the Sunni do not accept Ali in
> the same way.

Ok. So what is the difference between saying that Ali was infallible
and saying that he was a Perfect Man?

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-11 Thread Rich Ater






  Gilberto:
Shia and Sunni disagree about certain issues but I'm not persuaded
that the issues are fundemnantal or essential. 

    Well, you may be in a minority here. Sunni are killing Shi'a in
India and they are persecuted in Saudi Arabia. Iraq is a whole other
kettle of worms. We shouldn't be there in the first place, but once we
leave I think tthe two groups will go at each other tooth and nail.

  If Bahais can try to
present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zorastrianism,
etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent differences between them,
then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and Shias is a walk in
the park.

       I don't reconcile them. I say that there founders taught the
same Faith, which has gone through a cosmic game of telephone over the
decades, but that each has retained enough of the truth to recognize
the next Prophet if they try. I also say that enough of their writings
have gone down through the ages to make a credible interpretation of
monotheism. I also believe that Muslims have gone through the same
telephone game, I just don't think God minds as much as we do.

  

  
  


  
  
There is not a consensus that he was infallible. 

    Among Sunnis, no. The Shi'a I know all seem to think so.

  It is generally
thought that he was correct in his disagreement with Muawiya. And its
not like there is a sunni list floating around of "Imam Ali's top 10
mistakes". AS I said before, he could be considered a kind of saint
and might even be a Perfect Man.

    You still are beating around the bush. Let me put it this way. The
Shi'a and the Sunni do not accept Ali in the same way. Your defense
here sounds like Colin Powell try to convince me that Dick Cheny is a
democrat at heart. I'm not buying it, :-).

  
This was mentioned in the article. I think the resolution is that the
Taliban were not opposed to Sufism per se. In fact, they had Sufis
among their highest ranks. What they were opposed to were specific
doctrines and specific practices.

    Yes, I agree with this. I was talking to friend today who teaches
Indian history part time at Berkeley, and he updated me on some aspects
I was not aware of regarding Pakistani and Indian Islam, and the
Deobandi and Taliban attitude toward Sufism. He also said that it was
quite likely that Mulla Omar was Naqshibandi.
Rich

  


  
  http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/02/01022002104035.asp

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto,

At 02:31 PM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
>>I'm not sure if I'm always careful to say it this way but I would say 
>>"typical Muslims". Historically some past scholars (If I remember correctly 
>>Ibn Taymiyya might even be in this camp) took the position that "corruption" 
>>was a matter of wrong interpretations rather than changes in the text.<<

Hasn't the old Islamic teaching of perversion of doctrine all but been replaced 
by perversion of the texts?

>>And is it clear that the Bahai view precludes textual changes?<<

No, my understanding is that the official Baha'i view would preclude 
*intentional* perversion of the texts.

>>I thought that the Bahai writings quote many specific passages of the Bible 
>>in a way which suggests they are authentic but I also thought that the 
>>writings specifically say the Bible isn't as authentic as the Quran.<<

Right. Baha'u'llah's objection was to perversion of the texts, not to 
perversion of doctrine.

>>And couldn't it also be that the Bahai writings use the Bible because it is 
>>what Christians believe in but not necessarily *actually* affirming their 
>>inspiration or authenticity or proper canonicity?<<

Inspiration is not the same as inerrancy. (I do not personally believe that any 
scripture can be inerrant.)  However, Shoghi Effendi appears to have believed 
in degrees of authenticity. The Qur'an is more authentic (from a Baha'i, not 
necessarily an academic, viewpoint) than "the Bible," just as the actual 
writings of Shoghi Effendi are more authentic than letters written on his 
behalf.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:25:30 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, John,
 
> At 10:26 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
> >>Then what is meant by saying that the Bible is corrupted, and the teaching 
> >>of the Sonship, Divinity of Christ, Crucifixtion of Christ, etc. are all 
> >>made-up by man?  Isn't this not accepting Christianity as it presents 
> >>itself?<<
 
> Obviously, Muslims take the perversion of the texts as a reference to literal 
> corruption, whereas Baha'is understand it differently.

Gilberto:
I'm not sure if I'm always careful to say it this way but I would say
"typical Muslims". Historically some past scholars (If I remember
correctly Ibn Taymiyya might even be in this camp) took the position
that "corruption" was a matter of wrong interpretations rather than
changes in the text.

And is it clear that the Bahai view precludes textual changes? I
thought that the Bahai writings quote many specific passages of the
Bible in a way which suggests they are authentic but I also thought
that the writings specifically say the Bible isn't as authentic as the
Quran. And couldn't it also be that the Bahai writings use the Bible
because it is what Christians believe in but not necessarily
*actually* affirming their inspiration or authenticity or proper
canonicity?

Peace

Gilberto
 


 However, to my knowledge, most Muslims do not extend this concept to
other religious scriptures.
> 
> Of course, Baha'i theology is not in full agreement with all the 
> denominations and sects of Christianity either. We do not believe in the 
> Trinity (that God is three persons in one) and in a literal Resurrection, 
> which are accepted by all major Christian organizations.
> 
> With regards, Mark A. Foster â 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
> "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman
> 
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-- 


"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, Gilberto,

At 12:28 PM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
>>Do you find them less convincing than Bahai attempts to reconcile the Bible 
>>and Quran? 

No, that is what I was saying. I think that the various texts incorporated the 
Bible can be studied; and the Qur'an can be studied. If there are similarities 
between the various biblical texts or between certain biblical texts and the 
Qur'an, they can be pointed out, but I would not consider this type of 
"reconciliation" to be a scholarly activity. 

As I wrote on another list two days ago.

"I take a pragmatic approach to this subject. IMO, the only value of Baha'i 
eisegeses is apologetic and propagative (not academic)."

By "eisegesis," I was, in this case, referring to the interpretation of 
previous scriptures using statements, or "principles," contained in the Baha'i 
primary sources. However, I would have the same view about creating artificial 
"syncretisms" through doctrinal reconciliation.

>>(I have in mind especially the teachings about the sonship, divinity and 
>>crucifixion of Jesus). I mean, the difference between Jesus being God or not 
>>God seems to me orders of magnitude more huge than the difference between Ali 
>>being the first imam, or him being possibly the greatest awliya, the qutb of 
>>his age, a perfect man.<<

I would simply explain my understandings of the Baha'i views on those subjects. 
I see no reason why a Baha'i should not try to interpret other scriptures based 
on an application of certain Baha'i views. However, the only value I can see in 
this exercise would be apologetic and propagative (pedagogical), not academic. 
Academically, each text incorporated into a scripture (including the Baha'i 
Sacred Texts) should be examined on its own.

>>I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure how in practice 
>>would work out. Again going back to the nature of Jesus, personally I think 
>>that there is a radical difference between what the Quran says about Jesus 
>>and what the Bible says about Jesus.<<

As a Baha'i, I accept the authority of Baha'u'llah on this matter. From that 
standpoint, I would say that the qur'anic reference to Christ not dying on the 
cross applies to His Soul and Spirit, not to His body. In other respects, I 
would want to look at the statements in the Qur'an and in the various texts of 
the Bible and would point out any similarities and differences I observe, but I 
would not be interested in reconciling them .

>>But then in the actual Bahai writings statements are made which seem to say 
>>these differences can be reconciled. That feels like an imposition to me 
>>because I don't think it is reflected in the texts. Do you have a different 
>>way of thinking about that issue?<<

Yes, I think that the differences, from an apologetic standpoint, are explained 
in the Baha'i texts. That doesn't tell me that the actual differences between 
statements in the Qur'an and the "Bible" can independently be reconciled using 
any kind of scholarly perspective.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, John,

At 10:35 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
>>Remember, we are not talking about this or that school  in Islam.  Aren't we 
>>talking about Gilberto's version / view of  Islam, as he presents it ?? !!<<

I was referring to various Islamic positions, including among certain Islamic 
(not "universal") Sufi turuuq and the Lahori Ahmadis.

>>Therefore, if we look at what Gilberto's described, = [ that the teaching of 
>>Christianity that differ from Islamic teaching are man's corruption of the 
>>Bible ] , then I would say that this is striking down Christianity as 
>>man-made.  The Baha'i Faith asserts that Christianity is from God.<<

There are many different Christianities. Some, IMO, are more from God than 
others. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-08 Thread John Smith

G:  That's correct. I wouldn't make definite claims about Sidhartha orKrishna or others, but I wouldn't rule out that they were founded byprophets. I mean, in one hadith it says that in human history therewere as many as 124,000 prophets, so in fact most of them we probablydon't know. ALOT of the great religious figures through history couldpotentially have been prophets.
Hi Gilberto,  Thanks for the clarification.  I now see that the comments I made in that email (and a few others) were incorrect.
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:35:12 -0800 (PST), John Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mark, At any rate, thanks for the correct.  In fact, I don't disagree with
> what you are saying.  My statement did make some unjustified leaps and
> assumptions.  Let me restate what I really mean.

> Remember, we are not talking about this or that school  in Islam.  Aren't we
> talking about Gilberto's version / view of  Islam, as he presents it ?? !! 
> Therefore, if we look at what Gilberto's described, = [ that the teaching of
> Christianity that differ from Islamic teaching are man's corruption of the
> Bible ] , then I would say that this is striking down Christianity as
> man-made.  The Baha'i Faith asserts that Christianity is from God.

The Quran clearly states that Jesus was the Christ, a true prophet,
who performed miracles, was given a revelation called the Gospel, and
left behind a community of followers. In a very real sense,
Christianity comes from God. That doesn't mean that the Christians
accurately preserved and and transmitted their beliefs faithfully.

(The Quran says)
[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant,
but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore
We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection;
and Allah will inform them of what they did.

That doesn't mean I believe everything in the Bible. That doesn't mean
I believe everything which is taught by Christians as their theology.

I don't think that Bahais believe everything in the Bible (for
example, which son did Abraham nearly sacrifice?) They certainly don't
believe everything which is taught by Christians as their theology?
(The physical resurrection from the dead, for example)

I think the difference between what Bahais seem to be saying about
Christianity and what I'm saying is largely a matter of degree,
emphasis and candor. (At least that's my perspective, you might
disagree)

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:14:21 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John,

> At 09:45 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
> >>Isn't it more universal to do the one (Baha'i) than the other (Islam) ?  
> >>Islam does not accept all religions as they are as valid expressions from 
> >>God.  The Baha'i, IMO, does. 

Gilberto:
What do you mean by valid? I mean Islam, as it is, believes in the
finality of the prophet of Muhammad. Many forms of Christianity, as it
is, believes that Jesus died, and physically arose from the dead. I'm
not sure what kind of validity the Bahai faith gives to those
statements.

John:
 We accept the validity of the people of the Planet, it is only that
their time has past.  Maybe this is the reason that the Baha'i Faith
is more widespread than Islam (see Encyclopedia Britannica).<<

Mark:
> I don't think that is correct. I have known Muslims who believe that many of 
> the world's religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism, were originally 
> founded by Prophets. Some would even admit the possibility of Taoism, Shinto, 
> and other faith systems as having a Prophetic origin. 

Gilberto:
That's correct. I wouldn't make definite claims about Sidhartha or
Krishna or others, but I wouldn't rule out that they were founded by
prophets. I mean, in one hadith it says that in human history there
were as many as 124,000 prophets, so in fact most of them we probably
don't know. ALOT of the great religious figures through history could
potentially have been prophets.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:19:54 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, Gilberto,

> At 02:43 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
> >>If Bahais can try to present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, 
> >>Buddhism, Zorastrianism, etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent 
> >>differences between them, then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and 
> >>Shias is a walk in the park.<<

Mark:
> Some Baha'is have attempted to do so. However, I have been less than 
> impressed with those I have seen.

Gilberto:
Do you find them less convincing than Bahai attempts to reconcile the
Bible and Quran? (I have in mind especially the teachings about the
sonship, divinity and crucifixion of Jesus). I mean, the difference
between Jesus being God or not God seems to me orders of magnitude
more huge than the difference between Ali being the first imam, or him
being possibly the greatest awliya, the qutb of his age, a perfect
man.

> IMO, one of the more pragmatic implications of the Baha'i Faith as a non-
> syncretistic religion is that Baha'is should not *impose* similarities on the 
> various faith systems when none are apparent. The ideology or paradigm of 
> each > religious group should be acknowledged on its own merits, and no prior 
> assumption should be made as to its degrees of consistency.

I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure how in
practice would work out. Again going back to the nature of Jesus,
personally I think that there is a radical difference between what the
Quran says about Jesus and what the Bible says about Jesus. But then
in the actual Bahai writings statements are made which seem to say
these differences can be reconciled. That feels like an imposition to
me because I don't think it is reflected in the texts. Do you have a
different way of thinking about that issue?

Peace

Gilberto

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?