Re: Edict of toleration
Does the Edict ot Toleration (1844) has to be with the prophecies as mentioned by William Sears or not? Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Scott,That policy doesn't appear until around 1904. The impulse to immigrate toPalestine doesn't begin until the very end of the 19th century with TheodorHerzl's zionism which held that Jews needed their own national homeland.And even he wasn't insistent that it be in Palestine. Uganda and Guyana wereboth mentioned as alternatives. We don't hear of complaints against Jewishimmigration and land purchases until 1891. And that probably wouldn't havebeen seen as a problem had it not been clear that Zionists intended to makePalestine a European colony.warmest, SusanSusan,Actually, Jews from the Russian pale started migrating to Palestine as early as 1880 to escape the pograms. Herzl, while certainly the one who gave Zionism it's lasting s! hape, was not the founder of the movement. You are right about the Ottomans clamping down in 1904, of course. A good, though biased, book about the shaping of the modern Middle East is Empires in the Sand. It deals with the downfall of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of the modern Middle Eastern states. I'm sure you know about it Susan, but some others might like to peruse it.Rich __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu "...religious truth is not absolute but relative..." Shoghi EffendiDo You Yahoo!? Todo lo que quieres saber de Estados Unidos, América Latina y el resto del Mundo. Visíta Yahoo! Noticias. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
In a message dated 11/30/2004 10:21:44 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Edict ot Toleration (1844) has to be with the prophecies as mentioned by William Sears or not? Well, it would be nice to have a good clean, clear statement by the Porte that Jews could return to Israel, it is not absolutely necessary to have it. That the Porte stopped killing apostates out of hand is certainly a major break in their policies and by extension it means not only that those of a Christian tradition could go back to Christianity it also means that those of Judaic traditions could go back to being Jews without fear of execution for it. Its "toleration" enough in my book. I would suppose opponents of the faith might be gleeful about it, but we'll survive their temporary glee. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
Dear Scott, That policy doesn't appear until around 1904. The impulse to immigrate to Palestine doesn't begin until the very end of the 19th century with Theodor Herzl's zionism which held that Jews needed their own national homeland. And even he wasn't insistent that it be in Palestine. Uganda and Guyana were both mentioned as alternatives. We don't hear of complaints against Jewish immigration and land purchases until 1891. And that probably wouldn't have been seen as a problem had it not been clear that Zionists intended to make Palestine a European colony. warmest, Susan Susan, Actually, Jews from the Russian pale started migrating to Palestine as early as 1880 to escape the pograms. Herzl, while certainly the one who gave Zionism it's lasting shape, was not the founder of the movement. You are right about the Ottomans clamping down in 1904, of course. A good, though biased, book about the shaping of the modern Middle East is Empires in the Sand. It deals with the downfall of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of the modern Middle Eastern states. I'm sure you know about it Susan, but some others might like to peruse it. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
Hi, Sam, At 10:09 PM 11/27/2004, you wrote: Admittedly I'm being rather lazy and I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me regarding the Edict of Toleration allegedly signed in 1844, mentioned by William Sears. I was surprised to read Russ Williams' (a Christian attacking the Faith) comment that: this author has searched in over 40 encyclopedia sets and nearly 100 Jewish and Ottoman texts and did not find even one word about it. To my understanding, Williams was substantially correct. There is no specific evidence of an edict of toleration, as Sears describes it, in 1844. The late William Sears personally told me that, if he had the time, he would entirely rewrite _Thief in the Night_. The Edict of Toleration. In that book and several others written by both Baháí and non-Baháí authors, that document was overrated. Now the good news. We discovered a new document--proclaimed and published in 1844--that is far more significant than the so-called Edict of Toleration. We believe you should become familiar with this new document, which has remained unknown not only to the Baháí community but also to Jewish and Christian writers. Does the writer say why that is good news? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the best hamburger -- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
Thanks Susan, The significance ofWS's edict was that itallowed Jews to return to the Holy Land, rather than just practise their faith. Are you saying that the reply from the public record office to the "researcher" (?Sours) referred to an edict which did not state this?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Sam, I believe your researcher was probably Michael Sours Ruhani. This particular edict is one of many which Europeans pressured the Ottoman government into during the course of the 19th century. They were mostly aimed at protecting Christians. But the Ottoman government never prohibited the practice of Judaism or Christianity in Palestine. There had been Jews there all along under Islamic rule. I think Baha'is have made too much of this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is a! vailable through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
Hi, Sam, At 09:44 AM 11/28/2004, you wrote: I don't think anyone will disagree that TITN could do with a rewrite (I wish someone would!) If someone rewrote _Thief in the Night_, it would no longer be _Thief in the Night_. The major problem with the book is not its factual errors; it is the fact that many Baha'is have treated it as a reference work. Bill produced a narrative retelling of his personal search. I don't think that he ever intended it to be a source of accurate information. ... but I'm not convinced that this implies that WS was wrong about this particular edict. He states in TITN that he secured and studied copies of original documents and letters. Did he actually say he made *this* bit up? My understanding is that the documents he studied were filtered through, and interpreted by, Seventh Day Adventist sources. Well I assume it's because the edict we are discussing is questionable but they have found one which is valid and this is good news in terms of prophecy because it helps fulfill the times of the Gentiles prophecy in 1844 as mentioned by WS and believed unquestionably by so many Bahai's. (I apologise if I've completley misunderstood your question.) No, I think you understood my question. However, I still don't see why discovering such a document would be good news. The fact that the existence of the document, as it was described by Bill Sears, was accepted on face value reflects a lack of critical thinking on the parts of those Baha'is. If there is any good news, I think it may be that these individuals would, hopefully, be more cautious and critical in the future. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the best hamburger -- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
In a message dated 11/28/2004 10:17:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The significance of WS's edict was that it allowed Jews to return to the Holy Land, rather than just practise their faith. Are you saying that the reply from the public record office to the "researcher" (?Sours) referred to an edict which did not state this? Dear Sam, So far as I know the edict had more to do with the toleration of Christians than Jews. I don't think the 'right to return' is even mentioned. Jews were not prohibited from immigrating to Palestine in the first place. I found this posting in our archives which should give you some of the details you are looking for: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m30461.html warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
In a message dated 11/28/2004 10:45:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He states in TITN that he secured and studied copies of original documents and letters. Did he actually say he made *this* bit up? Dear Sam, He doesn't say he read the original edict itself, though I agree it is implied. Here is what he wrote: ""I was able to secure and study copies of the original letters and documents which led to the signing of the so-called Edict of Toleration in 1844." I think those documents were all part of the Adventist literature . warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
Greetings Sam, At 10:09 PM 11/27/2004, you wrote: I did find on the globalperspectives website the following mention of the Edict: The Edict of Toleration. In that book and several others written by both Baháí and non-Baháí authors, that document was overrated. Now the good news. We discovered a new document--proclaimed and published in 1844--that is far more significant than the so-called Edict of Toleration. We believe you should become familiar with this new document, which has remained unknown not only to the Baháí community but also to Jewish and Christian writers. This intrigues me. Ok, perhaps I'm being a little naughty and I should go out and buy this book I shall come again (which I will end up doing after finishing the several books I have yet to read) even though I haven't seen the whole series for sale in the UK, but I was just wondering if anyone knows what this is about. Does anyone have any more info on the Edict that WS mentions or that which this book mentions? Can't say that I have seen that Web site. I did read I Shall Come Again some years ago, and, this morning, reread the couple pages that Hushidar Motlagh devotes to this topic. Unfortunately, his treatment appears little less confusing than that of William Sears. He quotes a couple of Christians (a Dr. Guinness, and Leroy Froom) on the subject, but provides no further enlightenment as to how the so-called Edict of Toleration got transformed from a pronouncement that Muslims who converted to Christianity would no longer be executed for apostasy into a charter for the return of the Jews to the Holy Land. He does quote Guinness as saying about this edict that Europe obliged the Turkish Government to cease the practice of execution for apostasy... This is added to other statements that refer to the Jews returning to the Holy Land, but the connection is not apparent to me. Three years ago there was a discussion of the subject on soc.religion.bahai. The full discussion can be found by doing a Google of Groups on the subject. I've attached a copy of what I wrote, there, at that time. John B. --- From: John Bromberek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Subject: Re: Edict of toleration Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Date: 2001-12-02 06:46:03 PST On 28 Nov 2001 14:17:44 GMT, in soc.religion.bahai Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've noticed over the years that people have been trying to locate the edict of toleration. It would seem to be a crucial document, on which much Baha'i scriptual interpretation hinges. Has a copy of it been located? What did it actually proclaim? Geoff, The subject does come up from time to time. The last time I got involved in the discussion was in April of 1998 on the bahai-discuss e-mail list. That exchange was sparked by earlier notes from the s.r.b newsgroup. In a note to bahai-discuss, on April 11th, 1998, I attempted to briefly recount some of the history of the Palestine of that time - between 1838 and 1857. I won't try to get into that, but anyone who is interested might search out a book called Zion Before Zionism: 1838-1880, by Arnold Blumberg. Briefly, there was a lot going on at that time with respect to increasing freedom (at least nominally speaking) for Jews (and Christians) in the Ottoman Empire, at the instigation of European powers. It began before 1844, though. No specific March 21, 1844 Edict of Toleration is required for the fulfillment of prophecy, in this respect. It might be nice to have, but would only be one relatively insignificant (and probably unenforced) document among many. Moreover, it appears to be commonly agreed that there have been Jews in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas pretty much continuously throughout the last 1900 years (and, of course, before that time) - with possible exceptions for an occasion of Crusading fervor when Christians put everyone in Jerusalem to the sword, and maybe, again, at the time of the Mongol invasions, when there was a similar slaughter. There may not have been a lot of Jews in those parts, but they were already there - and, especially, in somewhat greater numbers following their expulsion from Spain in 1492. Coincidentally, two weeks after I sent that note the then-current issue of Journal of Baha'i Studies arrived in the mail (Vol. 8/No. 3/1998) containing a long article by Michael Sours (with some assistance from Stephen Lambden) on this very topic: The 1844 Ottoman 'Edict of Toleration' in Baha'i Secondary Literature (pages: 53- 80). Earlier in the e-mail exchange Dick Detweiler had mentioned that he had received information from Dennis McDonnell informing him that he had learned that documents relevant to this edict could be found at the British Foreign Office, Turkey in FO78/555/No.49, and that this included correspondence from Sir Stratford Canning, U.K. Ambassador at the Porte. Neither of them had subsequently actually
Re: Edict of toleration
There had been some Jews there all along. However, the policy of the Porte was to allow no NEW Jewish settlers in Palestine lest they be inundated with Jewish settlers. Dear Scott, That policy doesn't appear until around 1904. The impulse to immigrate to Palestine doesn't begin until the very end of the 19th century with Theodor Herzl's zionism which held that Jews needed their own national homeland. And even he wasn't insistent that it be in Palestine. Uganda and Guyana were both mentioned as alternatives. We don't hear of complaints against Jewish immigration and land purchases until 1891. And that probably wouldn't have been seen as a problem had it not been clear that Zionists intended to make Palestine a European colony. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
In a message dated 11/28/2004 1:26:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott,That policy doesn't appear until around 1904. The impulse to immigrate toPalestine doesn't begin until the very end of the 19th century with TheodorHerzl's zionism which held that Jews needed their own national homeland.And even he wasn't insistent that it be in Palestine. Uganda and Guyana wereboth mentioned as alternatives. We don't hear of complaints against Jewishimmigration and land purchases until 1891. And that probably wouldn't havebeen seen as a problem had it not been clear that Zionists intended to makePalestine a European colony. Thanks for the info! it might be of interest to note that before the second world war broke out Adolf Eichman was in contact with Arabs and Zionists in Palestine discussing the possibility of find a place to move the Reich's Jews. Even as late as 1940 the Nazis were making noises about turning Madagascar into a Jewish homeland. Though of course that was just talk to placate opponents and Jews still in Germany. Eichmann makes some note of those discussions in the memoir cuttings that appeared in Life Magazine shortly after he was kidnapped and taken to Israel. He had been trying to find a publisher for his memoirs and that is probably the only reason the Mossad was able to track him down. Talk about ego biting one in the ass. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
