Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto, At 10:54 AM 1/18/2005, you wrote: >>So it is pretty clear that the Torah was something given to Moses and passed >>on by him. And the Gospel is something given to Jesus.<< Actually, I suspect it is much more simple. I don't think that either the terms "Torah" (turat) or Gospel (injiil) were "somethings." They were names used in the Qur'an for, respectively, the Revelations of Moses and Christ. IMO, these terms, in this particular context, have no direct relationship with the Pentateuch and the four Gospels, which are human records of, and commentaries on, those two Revelations. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Lifeworlds are the structurizations of wills [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." - Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:12:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:34:58 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > All I mean when *I* say > corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical > to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identical > to the Gospel given to Jesus. > Dear Gilberto, Susan: > That presumes that the Torah and the Gospel were 'given' to Moses and Jesus > in the same way Muslims believe the Qur'an was given to Muhammad. There > isn't much evidence for that outside of the Ten Commandments. Gilberto: I don't know what you mean by "in the same way". I certainly didn't insist on that above. All I'm saying is that the Torah was revealed to Moses. The Gospel was revealed to Jesus. [6.154] Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord. [57.27] Then We made Our apostles to follow in their footsteps, and We sent Isa son of Marium afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy; and (as for) monkery, they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to them-- only to seek Allah's pleasure, but they did not observe it with its due observance; so We gave to those of them who believed their reward, and most of them are transgressors. And the Quran has several other passages like that. And then in the Bible, under the rule of Joshua (Moses successor according to the Bible) we read in Joshua 8 32] And there, in the presence of the people of Israel, he wrote upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written. [33] And all Israel, sojourner as well as homeborn, with their elders and officers and their judges, stood on opposite sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, half of them in front of Mount Ger'izim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded at the first, that they should bless the people of Israel. [34] And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law. [35] There was not a word of all that Moses commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel, and the women, and the little ones, and the sojourners who lived among them. (And remember that "Torah" actually means "law") So it is pretty clear that the Torah was something given to Moses and passed on by him. And the Gospel is something given to Jesus. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:09:40 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/23/2004 8:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > (Don't Bahais say that the world will continue to exist indefinitely?) > Dear Gilbert[o], > I'm going through some old posts that I missed during my vacation and noted > the above remark. Baha'is believe creation, not the world will continue to > exist indefinitely. > What is the distinction you are trying to make? Are you saying that the process of creation will continue, but no one object in creation (like the planet Earth) will continue to exist? Or are you getting at something else? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:34:58 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All I mean when *I* saycorruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identicalto the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identicalto the Gospel given to Jesus. Dear Gilberto, That presumes that the Torah and the Gospel were 'given' to Moses and Jesus in the same way Muslims believe the Qur'an was given to Muhammad. There isn't much evidence for that outside of the Ten Commandments. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/23/2004 8:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Don't Bahais say that the world will continue to exist indefinitely?) Dear Gilbert, I'm going through some old posts that I missed during my vacation and noted the above remark. Baha'is believe creation, not the world will continue to exist indefinitely. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:34:58 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All I mean when *I* saycorruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identicalto the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identicalto the Gospel given to Jesus. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fwd: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted
-- Forwarded message -- From: Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:15:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you have specific suggestions about how to provide context for those verses which would let you describe them as something other than genocide? Peace Gilberto On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:40:07 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto wrote: > >could you help me find a different way to read these passages? > > In the context of the larger picture, i.e., the Bible in its entirety > including the New Testament; the picture that historical studies give us of > the bronze-age world of the patriarchs; and the comparative realities of the > Revelations of the Manifestations. > > Dave Lambert > www.vintagerr.com > > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- "My people are hydroponic" -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto wrote: >could you help me find a different way to read these passages? In the context of the larger picture, i.e., the Bible in its entirety including the New Testament; the picture that historical studies give us of the bronze-age world of the patriarchs; and the comparative realities of the Revelations of the Manifestations. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:29:12 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any > > > way, > > > then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from > > > God, and then > > > you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain > > > such behavior > > > through progressive revelation. > > But if you do apply certain minimal moral > > > standards to the children of > > > Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and > > > couldn't have > > > originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old > > > TEstament > > > must have had some other source. > > > Gilberto: > > Which assumptions don't stand up? And even if you are going to open up > > your mind and heart to the divine, is it true that it speaks > > everywhere equally? I mean, if a book endorses genocide can you > > seriously accept it wholeheartedly as scripture? Dave: > The very first sentence, "if...then..." draws an illogical > conclusion. The > second thought, "...if you apply certain minimal moral standardsthen > their behavior" also rests on insufficient logic. Gilberto: Logic is a funny thing. I think that standard deductive logic is often valuable but it needs axioms in order to say anything worthwhile. So I would agree with you that perhaps what I wrote rests on certain statements which haven't been proven (at least not in the context of our discussions), but I would still say those statements were reasonable (i.e. likely to be true). In terms of what the Bible says about genocide we can get to that in a sec but then there was your other comment that. > Now, in speaking of opening the mind and heart to the divine, if the only > example you can conceive is one involving the endorsement of genocide, don't > you think there's something wrong with that picture? I'm not sure what you mean. We live in a world where there are various belief systems which say various things. Not everything they teach necessarily comes from God. Some belief systems are wrong. The Quran, the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, How to Win Friends and Influence People, Mein Kapf, a Course in Miracles, the Talmud, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Communist Manifesto, etc. These books aren't all equal, they aren't all from God. I'm not sure why being open to the divine should mean believing everything in every book. But to address your concerns about the Bible and genocide, could you help me find a different way to read these passages? Deuteronomy 7 [1] "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, [2] and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. [3] You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. [4] For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. Deuteronomy 20 [The verses right before this passage say that in cities not in the promised land, if the city surrenders they enslave everyone. If the city resists, they kill all the men and enslave the women and children.] [16] But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, [17] but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Per'izzites, the Hivites and the Jeb'usites, as the LORD your God has commanded; [18] that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices which they have done in the service of their gods, and so to sin against the LORD your God. And then if you looked at the entire book of Joshua you would read about how the army of the children of Israel went from city to city and killed everything that had breath. Men, women, children, infants, the elderly and livestock. And then later, under the reign of Saul, we can read in 1 Samuel 15 what God's intentions are towards Amalek And Samuel says to Saul: [2] Thus says the LORD of hosts, `I will punish what Am'alek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. [3] Now go and smite Am'alek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'" And then Saul defeats them in battle but fall short: 7] And Saul defeated the Amal'ekites, from Hav'ilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt. [8] And he took Agag the king of the Amal'ekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. [9] But Saul and the people spared A
RE: Not Exhausted
> >In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any > > way, > > then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from > > God, and then > > you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain > > such behavior > > through progressive revelation. > > But if you do apply certain minimal moral > > standards to the children of > > Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and > > couldn't have > > originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old > > TEstament > > must have had some other source. > Gilberto: > Which assumptions don't stand up? And even if you are going to open up > your mind and heart to the divine, is it true that it speaks > everywhere equally? I mean, if a book endorses genocide can you > seriously accept it wholeheartedly as scripture? The very first sentence, "if...then..." draws an illogical conclusion. The second thought, "...if you apply certain minimal moral standardsthen their behavior" also rests on insufficient logic. These statements assume a human understanding of the mind of God; assume the necessity of a single conclusion when others are logically possible; and impose upon God limitations based on human understanding. Apart from that, the assumption is made that the Old Testament is literal history. Now, in speaking of opening the mind and heart to the divine, if the only example you can conceive is one involving the endorsement of genocide, don't you think there's something wrong with that picture? On the other hand, if you are stating that the Bible as a whole endorses genocide, then I simply have to disagree with you. Strongly. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:20:33 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any > > way, > > > then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from > > God, and then > > > you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain > > such behavior > > > through progressive revelation. > > > > But if you do apply certain minimal moral > > > standards to the children of > > Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and > > > couldn't have > > originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old > > > TEstament > > must have had some other source. > I'm not sure who wrote the above, but to me it involves an awful lot of > assumptions that don't ultimately stand up. We seem to get tied up in a lot > of minutiae instead of simply opening up our minds and hearts to the Divine. Gilberto: Which assumptions don't stand up? And even if you are going to open up your mind and heart to the divine, is it true that it speaks everywhere equally? I mean, if a book endorses genocide can you seriously accept it wholeheartedly as scripture? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
> In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any > way, > > then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from > God, and then > > you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain > such behavior > > through progressive revelation. > > But if you do apply certain minimal moral > > standards to the children of > Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and > > couldn't have > originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old > > TEstament > must have had some other source. I'm not sure who wrote the above, but to me it involves an awful lot of assumptions that don't ultimately stand up. We seem to get tied up in a lot of minutiae instead of simply opening up our minds and hearts to the Divine. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:58:42 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any way, > then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from God, and then > you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain such behavior > through progressive revelation. But if you do apply certain minimal moral > standards to the children of Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and > couldn't have originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old > TEstament must have had some other source. Rich: There are a lot of issues in these > last paragraphs, all worth discussing, but for brevities sake I'll leave at > an agreement about corruption in the sense that you mean it. I do, however, > believe that the coruuption in this case does not prevent the believer from > gleaning the true word of God. So I guess that what I'm saying is that I > believe that the entirety of the Torah and Gospel are imbedded in the Bible, > but that everything in the Bible is not necessarily the true Torah and > Gospel. Fair enough. I'm not sure I would definitely say "entirety" but yes, I basically agree with what you describe. The core message is there and followable for the Jews and Christians. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well. But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are saying. It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past. I agree with you that they did but the question is whether or not God approved them. And at least in my mind it was connected to the discussion of Progressive revelation and Biblical corruption. I see your point. I was a little confused on the main point, but I agree I switched the focus. It was unintentional. And there is actually many other passages of the Bible which reiterate variations of these genocidal commandments. And if you read the book of Joshua you would see how these commandments were implemented by the armies of the children of Israel when they started to take over the "promised" land. Personally, I have a really hard time believing that God would ever inspire anyone to do that. So in terms of Biblical corruption, I think the above is an example of text which is in the Biblical Penteteuch but probably wasn't in the Torah revealed to Moses. I am familiar with these Biblical verses and I agree with you. My take is that massacres happened and the biblical version of revisionist historians tried to justify them, but I agree with you. So the Quran the children of Israel are told to enter the city with forgiveness and humility, but the commandment was changed. I was fasmiliar with these verses as well and have used them in talks. By the way, have you had a chance to peruse Majid Fakry's translation of the Qur'an it was approved by Al-Azhar and is really very good. In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any way, then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from God, and then you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain such behavior through progressive revelation. But if you do apply certain minimal moral standards to the children of Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and couldn't have originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old TEstament must have had some other source. There are a lot of issues in these last paragraphs, all worth discussing, but for brevities sake I'll leave at an agreement about corruption in the sense that you mean it. I do, however, believe that the coruuption in this case does not prevent the believer from gleaning the true word of God. So I guess that what I'm saying is that I believe that the entirety of the Torah and Gospel are imbedded in the Bible, but that everything in the Bible is not necessarily the true Torah and Gospel. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:22:28 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't have > trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, > considering the times. Gilberto: I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide. If you admit that there are extreme circumstances where genocide is actually justified, then if those extreme circumstances ever repeated themselves in the future, then genocide would again be justified. Rich: Gilberto,By the times, I mean just that. A small band > fighting for survival. Mind you, I never said the actions were justified, > just that such things happened. If you read the monuments and cuniform > tablets of the assyrians and babylonians you find much the same kind of > stuff. Back then whole villages got wiped out in war. Gilberto: Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well. But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are saying. It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past. I agree with you that they did but the question is whether or not God approved them. And at least in my mind it was connected to the discussion of Progressive revelation and Biblical corruption. For example, consider Deuteronomy 7 [1] "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, [2] and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. [3] You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. [4] For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. [5] But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Ashe'rim, and burn their graven images with fire. [6] "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. And there is actually many other passages of the Bible which reiterate variations of these genocidal commandments. And if you read the book of Joshua you would see how these commandments were implemented by the armies of the children of Israel when they started to take over the "promised" land. Personally, I have a really hard time believing that God would ever inspire anyone to do that. So in terms of Biblical corruption, I think the above is an example of text which is in the Biblical Penteteuch but probably wasn't in the Torah revealed to Moses. There is actually an interesting passage in the Quran about God giving instructions to the children of Israel: 002.057 YUSUFALI: And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: "Eat of the good things We have provided for you:" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls. PICKTHAL: And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying): Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you - they wronged Us not, but they did wrong themselves. SHAKIR: And We made the clouds to give shade over you and We sent to you manna and quails: Eat of the good things that We have given you; and they did not do Us any harm, but they made their own souls suffer the loss. 002.058 YUSUFALI: And remember We said: "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good." PICKTHAL: And when We said: Go into this township and eat freely of that which is therein, and enter the gate prostrate, and say: "Repentance." We will forgive you your sins and will increase (reward) for the right-doers. SHAKIR: And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others). 002.059 YUSUFALI: But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly. PICKTHAL: But those who did wrong changed the word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from heaven for their evil-doing. SHAKIR: But those who were unjust changed
Re: Not Exhausted
G I don't have trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, considering the times. Gilberto: I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide. If you admit that there are extreme circumstances where genocide is actually justified, then if those extreme circumstances ever repeated themselves in the future, then genocide would again be justified. Gilberto, By the times, I mean just that. A small band fighting for survival. Mind you, I never said the actions were justified, just that such things happened. If you read the monuments and cuniform tablets of the assyrians and babylonians you find much the same kind of stuff. Back then whole villages got wiped out in war. That doesn't mean that I think it justifiable, just that I think it might have happened just as described. As to the parts about God telling them to do it, we still have people around telling us that its ok to kill outsiders in God's name and it still isn't right. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:17:16 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto Simpson wrote: > Gilberto: > I wouldn't use the term > "forgeries". All I mean when *I* say > corruption is that the first five books > of the Bible are not identical to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical > gospels are not identical to the Gospel given to Jesus. I even know of > Bibles put out by Christians were the explanatory notes explain that the > texts are "corrupted". I wouldn't necessarily ascribe sinister motives to > the people who put the texts together. [...]I > think that what I'm saying is pretty mild. Rich: What you're saying is mild. I > was jumping to conclusions based on conversations that I've had with other > Muslims. You mentioned in other posts that you believe the essense of the > Injil is in the four Gospels, I believe that we are in aggreement there. > Gilberto: I don't think there is a fundamental difference in what we are > saying. Some of the Bible may be the word of God. Some isn't. If even > one letter is off, if some numbers are missing, then "corruption" > has occured. If the wrong books were canonized, then "corruption" > has occured. Everything else is just a matter of degree. Rich: In this sense, yes, > corruption has occurred. Although I don't know that there ever was a literal > book of Jesus' We know about the Q source meerly as an inference. Gilberto: I wouldn't insist that it has to be a physical paper and ink book. For example, even the Quran is in some sense primarily an oral revelation (the word itself means "the recitation") although we believe it has been faithfully transcribed. Jesus came as a prophet with a message. And some portion of the words which passed his lips probably would have been "from God" in such away that they would collectively qualify as the Gospel. In any case, the Gospel of Thomas is a sayings Gospel and is actually pretty close. I'm not sure if there are other known Sayings Gospels. Rich: > In other postings you discussed the genocidal tales in the Old Testament. > I've used those with Christians and Jews to illustrate that the Qur'an not > only isn't warlike, but considerably milder than the Bible. Yes, I agree. > I don't have > trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, considering the > times. Gilberto: I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide. If you admit that there are extreme circumstances where genocide is actually justified, then if those extreme circumstances ever repeated themselves in the future, then genocide would again be justified. Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto Simpson wrote: Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it. Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [end quote] Rich: This may be open to interpretation. I respect that you believe it means that the Gospel and Torah here today are forgeries. Gilberto: I wouldn't use the term "forgeries". All I mean when *I* say corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identical to the Gospel given to Jesus. I even know of Bibles put out by Christians were the explanatory notes explain that the texts are "corrupted". I wouldn't necessarily ascribe sinister motives to the people who put the texts together. Especially in the case of Jesus and the Gospels I think the corruption of doctrine was a result of pious exageration. (I'm not sure if I'm using the term correctly but I think the Bahai writings talk about "veils of glory". Is that appropriate here?) I think that what I'm saying is pretty mild. What you're saying is mild. I was jumping to conclusions based on conversations that I've had with other Muslims. You mentioned in other posts that you believe the essense of the Injil is in the four Gospels, I believe that we are in aggreement there. Gilberto: I don't think there is a fundamental difference in what we are saying. Some of the Bible may be the word of God. Some isn't. If even one letter is off, if some numbers are missing, then "corruption" has occured. If the wrong books were canonized, then "corruption" has occured. Everything else is just a matter of degree. In this sense, yes, corruption has occurred. Although I don't know that there ever was a literal book of Jesus' We know about the Q source meerly as an inference. In other postings you discussed the genocidal tales in the Old Testament. I've used those with Christians and Jews to illustrate that the Qur'an not only isn't warlike, but considerably milder than the Bible. I don't have trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, considering the times. I don't have that much trouble with Paul either. I think he's largely misunderstood, but that's a huge topic in itself. Rich PS I agree that, while tact is indicated, we should not shy away from topics that can be upsetting. There are fundamental diferences with the Baha'i perspective on Islam and the Muslim perspective. Hopefully open and respectful dialogue will help us to build an understanding. After all, there is a fundamental diference between Judaism, Christianity, and Isalm in viewpoint, but it didn't stop the Golden Age of Mideval Andalucia. Rich What I say when I say the Bible is "corrupted" is alot milder than what you deny when you say it isn't. I think I know what you mean here, but i'm not sure. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto,
At 08:10 AM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
>>Mutzilites, Shiis and I guess Bahais generally took the position that the
>>Quran was created.<<
I don't know if there is an "official" Baha'i position on this subject. If so,
I would defer to it. However, IMO, the Qur'an is neither created nor uncreated.
It was recorded and compiled ("structurized"). Only individuals, particulars,
are created.
With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman
__
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Re: Not Exhausted
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:09:34 -0800 (PST), John Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: > And the claim that the Quran itself says the dispensation of Muhammad was > suposed to only last > 1000 years doesn't seem believable either. > J: > Since everything in nature that I have ever encountered has an end, why not > the Qur'an. It > seems more logic that it does end than to believe it doesn't. Unless you > equate the Qur'an > with the Essence of God (which is never-ending). It's kind of funny you said that. Muslims do tend to say that everything ends. There is a verse in the Quran which says "Everything is perishing except for the face of Allah". So yes, at some point the universe and everything in it will cease to exist, and at that point the whole quesiton of following the Quran will be moot. (Don't Bahais say that the world will continue to exist indefinitely?) But your last comment was actually perceptive. Sunnis actually do identify the Quran with the uncreated word of God. (Don't ask me how... lol) Probably the first big theological contraversy in Islam was the question of whether the Quran was created or not. I think the argument is that if the Quran is the word of God, and God's speech is an eternal attribute of God related in a particular way with his essence, then the implication is that in some, way, shape, or form, the Quran is uncreated. Mutzilites, Shiis and I guess Bahais generally took the position that the Quran was created. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:45:22 -0800, Patti Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: > > > > Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption: > > > > > > [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the > > > book with their hands and > > then say: This is from Allah, so that they may > > > take for it a small > > price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have > > > written and woe > > to them for what they earn. > > [end quote] > > Patti: > One place you could look is in "Gems of Divine Mysteries" > (http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GDM/gdm-3.html) by Baha'u'llah. It was > originally written in Arabic, previously I steered you toward Seven Valleys, > but I think perhaps you would prefer "Gems". Here are a some passages from > "Gems" regarding the issue of Biblical corruption. > > Paragraph 13: Thank you Patti, I've actually seen this first passage before but I think the other ones are new to me. > "And should they reply: "The Books that are in the hands of this people, > which they call the Gospel and attribute to Jesus, the Son of Mary, have not > been revealed by God and proceed not from the Manifestations of His Self", > then this would imply a cessation in the abounding grace of Him Who is the > Source of all grace. If so, God's testimony to His servants would have > remained incomplete and His favour proven imperfect. His mercy would not > have shone resplendent, nor would His grace have overshadowed all. For if at > the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how > could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as > hath been written by the Imáms of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious > divines? " Gilberto: Thank you. I wouldn't say that the Gospel is absolutely vanished and just gone. The core of the message is there. Just focus on the red letters, the sermon on the mount, the spiritual teachings, the understanding of the law. I don't have a problem with the idea that the heart of the Gospel's message is contained in the New Testament. But it is just mixed in with other things too. We would probably get a more inclusive impression if one looked at the Apocryphal texts like Thomas or the Gospel of Peter or the Acts of John. Especially If you look at all the ancient Christian texts as a whole I'm confident that the Gospel is in there. Its just a matter of sifting wheat from chaff. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto:And the claim that the Quran itself says the dispensation of Muhammad was suposed to only last1000 years doesn't seem believable either.J:Since everything in nature that I have ever encountered has an end, why not the Qur'an. Itseems more logic that it does end than to believe it doesn't. Unless you equate the Qur'anwith the Essence of God (which is never-ending). __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: > > Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption: > > > [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the > > book with their hands and > then say: This is from Allah, so that they may > > take for it a small > price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have > > written and woe > to them for what they earn. > [end quote] Patti: One place you could look is in "Gems of Divine Mysteries" (http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GDM/gdm-3.html) by Baha'u'llah. It was originally written in Arabic, previously I steered you toward Seven Valleys, but I think perhaps you would prefer "Gems". Here are a some passages from "Gems" regarding the issue of Biblical corruption. Paragraph 13: "And should they reply: "The Books that are in the hands of this people, which they call the Gospel and attribute to Jesus, the Son of Mary, have not been revealed by God and proceed not from the Manifestations of His Self", then this would imply a cessation in the abounding grace of Him Who is the Source of all grace. If so, God's testimony to His servants would have remained incomplete and His favour proven imperfect. His mercy would not have shone resplendent, nor would His grace have overshadowed all. For if at the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as hath been written by the Imáms of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious divines? " Paragraphs 21-24: "Having imparted unto thee, beneath countless veils of concealment, certain hidden mysteries, We now return to Our elucidation of the Books of old, that perchance thy feet may not slip and thou mayest receive with complete certitude the portion which We shall bestow upon thee of the billowing oceans of life in the realm of the names and attributes of God. "It is recorded in all the Books of the Gospel that He Who is the Spirit spoke in words of pure light unto His disciples, saying: "Know that heaven and earth may pass away, but my words shall never pass away." As is clear and evident to thine eminence, these words outwardly mean that the Books of the Gospel will remain in the hands of people till the end of the world, that their laws shall not be abrogated, that their testimony shall not be abolished, and that all that hath been enjoined, prescribed, or ordained therein shall endure forever. "O My brother! Sanctify thy heart, illumine thy soul, and sharpen thy sight, that thou mayest perceive the sweet accents of the Birds of Heaven and the melodies of the Doves of Holiness warbling in the Kingdom of eternity, and perchance apprehend the inner meaning of these utterances and their hidden mysteries. For otherwise, wert thou to interpret these words according to their outward meaning, thou couldst never prove the truth of the Cause of Him Who came after Jesus, nor silence the opponents, nor prevail over the contending disbelievers. For the Christian divines use this verse to prove that the Gospel shall never be abrogated and that, even if all the signs recorded in their Books were fulfilled and the Promised One appeared, He would have no recourse but to rule the people according to the ordinances of the Gospel. They contend that if He were to manifest all the signs indicated in the Books, but decree aught besides that which Jesus had decreed, they would neither acknowledge nor follow Him, so clear and self-evident is this matter in their sight. "Thou canst indeed hear the learned and the foolish amongst the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: "The sun hath not risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven. Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjál hath not appeared; Sufyání hath not arisen; nor hath the Temple been witnessed in the sun." I heard, with Mine own ears, one of their divines proclaim: "Should all these signs come to pass and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án, we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse forever to acknowledge Him", and other statements such as these deniers make. And all this, when the Day of Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance hath been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown, and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! They all lie as dead within their own shrouds, save those who have believed and repaired unto God, who rejoice in this day in His ce
Re: Not Exhausted
Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it. Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the > book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may > take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have > written and woe to them for what they earn. [end quote] Rich: This may be open to > interpretation. I respect that you believe it means that the Gospel and > Torah here today are forgeries. Gilberto: I wouldn't use the term "forgeries". All I mean when *I* say corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identical to the Gospel given to Jesus. I even know of Bibles put out by Christians were the explanatory notes explain that the texts are "corrupted". I wouldn't necessarily ascribe sinister motives to the people who put the texts together. Especially in the case of Jesus and the Gospels I think the corruption of doctrine was a result of pious exageration. (I'm not sure if I'm using the term correctly but I think the Bahai writings talk about "veils of glory". Is that appropriate here?) I think that what I'm saying is pretty mild. [Documentary hypothesis and other topics deleed] Rich: I'm very aware of Biblical > history, I've lectured on it in Baha'i classes. The Bible was written by men > who were inspired by God. I do not believe that every word of it is the Word > of God in the same sense that the Qur'an is, Baha'u'llah does not claim > this. Gilberto: I don't think there is a fundamental difference in what we are saying. Some of the Bible may be the word of God. Some isn't. If even one letter is off, if some numbers are missing, then "corruption" has occured. If the wrong books were canonized, then "corruption" has occured. Everything else is just a matter of degree. Rich: > Corruption would be the > intentional placement of false verses to mislead, I do > not believe this happened. What I say when I say the Bible is "corrupted" is alot milder than what you deny when you say it isn't. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who interpret the Quran in ways which I find more impressive. But the larger point I would want to make is that if you are saying that over time, people can have a deeper understanding of certain texts, then I actually wouldn't have much a problem with that notion of progress. If, as quoted from the Bahai writings, the word of God is endless in meaning, then that suggests that Muslims could stick to the Quran and continue to study it, and find more and more spiritual depth the more time they spent in its ocean. Gilberto, I have no problem with this either. I don't feel the need to convince you to believe what I believe, just to accept the fact the I believe it. I think you may never agree with my stance and that's alright. I do not doubt for a minute your sincerity, or the sincerity of other Muslims out there. What I'm looking for is mutual respect and dialogue. I think this is achievable, but it will be more dificult if we take each diference of oppinion as a dig at the other person. I don't mean you personally, I have enjoyed our dialogue and wish it to continue. My concern was that some of what you've said made me think that you might have thought I was trying to convert you. I'm not, I just want us to understand each other and live together. That has not always been the case between our religions. As I said, I believe that when a new Prophet comes, the energy released in the world effects all people. That is why in the wake of Jesus (PBUH) Hillel arrose and in the wake of Muhammad (PBUH) the likes of Francis of Assisi, Moses Maimonides, and Thomas Aquinas arrose. I would go further and say in the wake of Baha'u'llah Muhammad Abduh and Fazlur Rahman arrose. Other religions will continue to produce brilliant scholars and holy people. Each religion will produce new insights into its scriptures and these will all be valid from some perspective. I must also add here that while Shoghi Effendi instructed Western Baha'is to study and vindicate Islam, we have not done that good a job and most Baha'is have no clue about fiqh, sharia, or what either entails. Rich: Once again this has to do with our understanding. I know the Muslim belief about the original Gospel and Torah. I think its specious. There is nothing in the Qur'an to back it up. In a passage discussing the People of the Book, is the admonition: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. This may be open to interpretation. I respect that you believe it means that the Gospel and Torah here today are forgeries. I disagree with this interpretation. On top of that there are several hadith (at least one specifically interprets the above verse) which are more explicit. More harm has been done to Islam by Hadith than by all the armies of Christendom. I know the ulm al isnad, but still its anybody guess as to what is and isn't valid in Hadith. You'll note that I said that I did not believe the Qur'an supports you're interpretation, my leaving out Hadith was intentional. I mean no disrespect, but it's hard to prove Hadith. And on top of that, even if the Quran and sunnah didn't verify the idea, I think the case for Biblical corruption is too strong to neglect. For example, if you read the Penteteuch (the "Torah") Moses' death is described at the end, in particular from the perspective of someone long after. So someone besides Moses obviously wrote that section. But then other passages of the Penteteuch are written in the same style. In fact, Biblical scholars almost universally accept the Documentary Hypothesis, which states that the Biblical Penteteuch had multiple authors (typically 4 are distinguished) and edited together centuries after Moses. So if that's true, the original revelation given to Moses (the actual Torah) is only a part of the Biblical Penteteuch. A similar argument could be made about the Gospels. If the Gospel is a revelation given to Jesus (similar to how the Quran was given to Muhammad) then the Gospel, if it exists in the NT at all is found in some portion of just the "red letters". But other elements are put into the mix as well. Besides, if you read about the history of the texts you would see that certain changes have taken place. I'm very aware of Biblical history, I've lectured on it in Baha'i classes. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. I do not believe that every word of it is the Word of God in the same sense that the Qur'an is, Baha'u'llah does not claim this. He states tha
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:27:58 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "No, I don't just mean random Bahais off the street coming up with > stuff off the top of their heads. I mean the interpretations of more > knowledgable Bahais and people whose interpretations and readings seem > faithful and connected to the writings as a whole." > Dear Gilberto, > Still not a good comparison. You're not likely to find any Rumis or Ibn > Arabis on this list, much less on SRB! The only real comparison you can > make is between the Qur'an itself and Baha'u'llah. No. You don't seem to understand. The constant is the Quran. And what I am comparing are Bahai interpretations of the Quran (which will reflect the words of Bahaullah) with Muslim interpretations of the Quran (which will reflect the words of past saints, mystics, and philosophers) Which are deeper? More meaningful? More plausible? > "What seems consistent [among Bahai interpretations of the Quran] is that > > the Quran is read in ways which deligitmize the Muslim community. And > that is done by "spiritualizing" and reading metaphorically doctrines which > > Muslims tend to take seriously. And by uncharitable legalistic readings of > > passages which Muslims would actually be more flexible on." > Uh, Gilberto most of those legalistic readings are precisely the ones the > *majority* of Muslims take. Gilberto: I don't actually believe that is true in the cases I have in mind. And even if it were true, Bahais generally don't care how Muslims read the Quran so I'm not sure why that point would be relevant. (I mean if you don't care when Muslims tell you "khatam" means last, why would you choose to read "daraba" as beat. "daraba" in Arabic also can bear multiple meanings and doesn't have to be read in gross, physical, brutal terms.) A good example would be the discussion in soc.religion.bahai between a certain Bahai and myself on the subject of retaliation. And the Bahai was trying to argue that the Quran was saying that if a man murders a another man's wife, the Quranic punishment would be to kill the murder's innocent wife!! Something which I don't think any Muslim scholar has argued. Or again, another exchange where a different Bahai was arguing that the Quran gives a husband a right to beat his wife, while I know of plenty of Muslims who would argue the opposite, and base it not just on the Quran but on the sunnah as well. The problem is the inconsistency (or from another perspective, the consistency) of the Bahai approach. > > > Which gems did you have in mind? > > The gems in the Qur'an? We can start with the Surih of Rahman.;-} > I mean, gems in the Quran which are substantially missing from the Bible. although personally I am more moved by the Quran and I feel it speaks to me more clearly than the Bible and my heart finds more satisfaction with Islam than with the Bible, I wouldn't necessarily want to make unwarranted criticisms of the Bible. I think contentwise, the theme of being grateful for God's many blessings is certainly found in the Bible and in particular there is a Psalm somewhat reminiscent of that Surah. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
"No, I don't just mean random Bahais off the street coming up with stuff off the top of their heads. I mean the interpretations of more knowledgable Bahais and people whose interpretations and readings seem faithful and connected to the writings as a whole." Dear Gilberto, Still not a good comparison. You're not likely to find any Rumis or Ibn Arabis on this list, much less on SRB! The only real comparison you can make is between the Qur'an itself and Baha'u'llah. "What seems consistent is that the Quran is read in ways which deligitmize the Muslim community. And that is done by "spiritualizing" and reading metaphorically doctrines which Muslims tend to take seriously. And by uncharitable legalistic readings of passages which Muslims would actually be more flexible on." Uh, Gilberto most of those legalistic readings are precisely the ones the *majority* of Muslims take. Which gems did you have in mind? The gems in the Qur'an? We can start with the Surih of Rahman.;-} warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:07:12 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he > gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of > Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I > think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who > interpret the Quran in ways which I find more impressive." > Than your run-of-the-mill Baha'i? Gilberto: No, I don't just mean random Bahais off the street coming up with stuff off the top of their heads. I mean the interpretations of more knowledgable Bahais and people whose interpretations and readings seem faithful and connected to the writings as a whole. Gilberto: For example, I think the interpretation that Quranic eschatology is really about the coming of the Bab and Bahaullah seems really unsatisfying and not very plausible. And the claim that the Quran itself says the dispensation of Muhammad was suposed to only last 1000 years doesn't seem believable either. G: I think another really unsatisfying aspect seems to be that often there is a selective flexibility. I mean, there are so many issues where Bahais depart from the plain meaning of the text of the Quran, but I know of one knowledgable Bahai who insisted that the Quran really does give husbands a literal God-given right to beat their wives. G: What seems consistent is that the Quran is read in ways which deligitmize the Muslim community. And that is done by "spiritualizing" and reading metaphorically doctrines which Muslims tend to take seriously. And by uncharitable legalistic readings of passages which Muslims would actually be more flexible on. Gilberto: > "But the larger point I would want to make is that if you are saying > that over time, people can have a deeper understanding of certain > texts, then I actually wouldn't have much a problem with that notion > of progress. If, as quoted from the Bahai writings, the word of God is > endless in meaning, then that suggests that Muslims could stick to the > Quran and continue to study it, and find more and more spiritual depth > the more time they spent in its ocean." Susan: > And Christians can find more spiritual depth out of the Bible as well. That > doesn't mean they won't be missing some gems if they neglect to read the > Qur'an. Which gems did you have in mind? I have a different attitude towards the Bible. I mean I think there is a certain amount problematic content in the Bible like the genocide endorsements etc. But I'm not sure I would say that there are gems missing from the Judeo-Christian scriptures (especially if you throw in the Apocrypha Remember our Hillel discussion from earlier. Hillelism is in some sense a sufficient religion with "nothing" missing. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
"I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who interpret the Quran in ways which I find more impressive." Dear Gilberto, Than your run-of-the-mill Baha'i? I would think so! But isn't that comparing apples to oranges. As you said, you haven't read enough of Baha'u'llah's Writings. "But the larger point I would want to make is that if you are saying that over time, people can have a deeper understanding of certain texts, then I actually wouldn't have much a problem with that notion of progress. If, as quoted from the Bahai writings, the word of God is endless in meaning, then that suggests that Muslims could stick to the Quran and continue to study it, and find more and more spiritual depth the more time they spent in its ocean." And Christians can find more spiritual depth out of the Bible as well. That doesn't mean they won't be missing some gems if they neglect to read the Qur'an. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:04:14 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [If I remember correctly, this was a response to the issue of whether the concept of progressive revelation, implied criticizing God for the previous revelations] > Gilberto: I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it [presenting the doctrine]. > Bahais call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly > suggests that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are > somehow deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or > otherwise better than what came before. And when Bahais start to articulate > how the Bahai writings have "progressed" over the Quran then the negative > statements come into the picture.Gilberto, Rich: > Sorry it has taken so long. I would agree. I would ask you to bare in > mind that the Faith hasn't developed as many scholars as we'd like to think, > nor have we given serious thought to what progressive revelation really > means. If you read Baha'u'llah's comments on Islam and Muhammad you did get, > IMO, the concept of His or the Bab's revelations being superior in the sense > that some define progressive revelation. I believe that Baha'u'llah's > writings can give us a deeper understanding of the Qur'an than someone > reading it in the late 7th century had and that a better understanding than > someone in the 2nd century reading the Gospels would have been had by > someone reading it after being open to the Islamic revelation. Gilberto: I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who interpret the Quran in ways which I find more impressive. But the larger point I would want to make is that if you are saying that over time, people can have a deeper understanding of certain texts, then I actually wouldn't have much a problem with that notion of progress. If, as quoted from the Bahai writings, the word of God is endless in meaning, then that suggests that Muslims could stick to the Quran and continue to study it, and find more and more spiritual depth the more time they spent in its ocean. Gilberto: I wouldn't > want to set the prophets against one another. Their various messages are a > repetition of the messages which came before. The differences are more > "horizontal" than "vertical" for example having Friday be the emphasized day > of the week rather than the Sabbath. The problem with those earlier > communities is that the original revelation was no longer being faithfully > transmitted. For example, I wouldn't try to say that the Quran was better > than the original Gospel or the original Torah. I would question whether the > texts in the current Old and New Testament really are the Torah or the > Gospel. Rich: Once again this has to do with our understanding. I know the Muslim > belief about the original Gospel and Torah. I think its specious. There is > nothing in the Qur'an to back it up. In a passage discussing the People of the Book, is the admonition: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. On top of that there are several hadith (at least one specifically interprets the above verse) which are more explicit. And on top of that, even if the Quran and sunnah didn't verify the idea, I think the case for Biblical corruption is too strong to neglect. For example, if you read the Penteteuch (the "Torah") Moses' death is described at the end, in particular from the perspective of someone long after. So someone besides Moses obviously wrote that section. But then other passages of the Penteteuch are written in the same style. In fact, Biblical scholars almost universally accept the Documentary Hypothesis, which states that the Biblical Penteteuch had multiple authors (typically 4 are distinguished) and edited together centuries after Moses. So if that's true, the original revelation given to Moses (the actual Torah) is only a part of the Biblical Penteteuch. A similar argument could be made about the Gospels. If the Gospel is a revelation given to Jesus (similar to how the Quran was given to Muhammad) then the Gospel, if it exists in the NT at all is found in some portion of just the "red letters". But other elements are put into the mix as well. Besides, if you read about the history of the texts you would see that certain changes have taken place. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it. Bahais call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly suggests that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are somehow deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or otherwise better than what came before. And when Bahais start to articulate how the Bahai writings have "progressed" over the Quran then the negative statements come into the picture. Gilberto, Sorry it has taken so long. I would agree. I would ask you to bare in mind that the Faith hasn't developed as many scholars as we'd like to think, nor have we given serious thought to what progressive revelation really means. If you read Baha'u'llah's comments on Islam and Muhammad you did get, IMO, the concept of His or the Bab's revelations being superior in the sense that some define progressive revelation. I believe that Baha'u'llah's writings can give us a deeper understanding of the Qur'an than someone reading it in the late 7th century had and that a better understanding than someone in the 2nd century reading the Gospels would have been had by someone reading it after being open to the Islamic revelation. This has to do with the energies released by the Prophets when they come , but I believe that is because each Prophet brings a new paradigm shift that allows each to understand more of what was there from the beginning. In other words any limitations lie in us not the scriptures. I also think that this energy is available to all, not just members of the new revelation, hence Khalid abul fadel today, or Thomas Aquinas in 12th century Europe. Rich: In the Qur'an it says that God gave a revelation to each of the Prophets and perfected their religion. If this is the case then in becoming a Muslim, and I mean a Muslim in the common accepted manner of understanding the term, not its universal definition, thyen you must end up > criticizing Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, (God forbid). Gilberto: I wouldn't want to set the prophets against one another. Their various messages are a repetition of the messages which came before. The differences are more "horizontal" than "vertical" for example having Friday be the emphasized day of the week rather than the Sabbath. The problem with those earlier communities is that the original revelation was no longer being faithfully transmitted. For example, I wouldn't try to say that the Quran was better than the original Gospel or the original Torah. I would question whether the texts in the current Old and New Testament really are the Torah or the Gospel. Once again this has to do with our understanding. I know the Muslim belief about the original Gospel and Torah. I think its specious. There is nothing in the Qur'an to back it up. Rather it was past misunderstanding og these scriptures that led Jews from recognizing Jesus (PBUH) and Christians from recognizing Muhammad (PBUH). I do agree about horizontal changes and this is what is witnessed in the diferences between Baha'i law and Islamic law. The spirit of the law and its gift as a mercy from God stand intact. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:11:58 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > >And I would say is that people like Khalid Abul Fadl [aren't] an > >exception to what I"m talking about he's an example. There are > >certainly Muslims who are looking at the sources of the religion > >differently and starting to "reform". Amina Wadud would be another. > >There are also fairly traditional scholars from Western backgrounds > >who are just sensitive to certain issues and are gradually using > >traditional methodologies in modern situations and are better at > >communicating and articulating Islamic principles to modern Western > >audiences. None of these people are saying the Quran is outdated. > Gilberto, >Here we agree. I'm not saying it is outdated either. I would agree > with your thoughts on changes being horizontal rather than vertcal and > I'll answer your other posting in a day or so when I have time to do it > justice. Gilberto: > >But there are Bahais who, for example, would say that the Quran isn't > >suitable for the modern age because it promotes unfair treatment of > >women. That's what I would call "calling God a sexist pig". I would > >rather read the Quran in different ways and say that it continues to > >be valid. Rich: > >If Baha'is take up this argument, I would say it is an oversimplification, > >and like other oversimplifications, is wrong. God forbid that such things be > >said. The Qur'an will never be invalid, we believe that some social > >teachings have been superceded, Gilberto: But aren't some of these social teachings actually found in the Quran? And if so, why do you think they have been superceded? Rich: I would like to continue this conversation at greater length in a day or so. It is nice talking with you. Gilberto: Same here. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
And I would say is that people like Khalid Abul Fadl isn't an exception to what I"m talking about he's an example. There are certainly Muslims who are looking at the sources of the religion differently and starting to "reform". Amina Wadud would be another. There are also fairly traditional scholars from Western backgrounds who are just sensitive to certain issues and are gradually using traditional methodologies in modern situations and are better at communicating and articulating Islamic principles to modern Western audiences. None of these people are saying the Quran is outdated. Gilberto, Here we agree. I'm not saying it is outdated either. I would agree with your thoughts on changes being horizontal rather than vertcal and I'll answer your other posting in a day or so when I have time to do it justice. But there are Bahais who, for example, would say that the Quran isn't suitable for the modern age because it promotes unfair treatment of women. That's what I would call "calling God a sexist pig". I would rather read the Quran in different ways and say that it continues to be valid. If Baha'is take up this argument, I would say it is an oversimplification, and like other oversimplifications, is wrong. God forbid that such things be said. The Qur'an will never be invalid, we believe that some social teachings have been superceded, but some of them were superceded in the Prophet's (PBUH) own lifetime, such as the direction of the Qiblah. I would like to continue this conversation at greater length in a day or so. It is nice talking with you. Ma Sallama, Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
[oops clicked the wrong button] On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:55:15 -0500, Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rich, I think I realized where the misunderstanding lies. > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:50:36 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: > > >I would say that the Quran can certainly be read faithfully in ways > > >which oppose sexist oppression and protect the interests and concerns > > >of women. And so in that sense a new religion isn't really necessary. > > >I don't see how you could depart from that position very far without > > >accusing God of being a sexist pig. > Rich: > >That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how > > Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an. You can do this by criticizing what > > gets accepted these days for accepable Hadith, and you can do this by > > looking at what has happened tp fiqh and ijtihad in modern times. This > > criticisms are not just those of some Baha'is, but of some Muslims as > > well. Read Speaking inGod's Name by Khalid Abul Fadil. And I would say is that people like Khalid Abul Fadl isn't an exception to what I"m talking about he's an example. There are certainly Muslims who are looking at the sources of the religion differently and starting to "reform". Amina Wadud would be another. There are also fairly traditional scholars from Western backgrounds who are just sensitive to certain issues and are gradually using traditional methodologies in modern situations and are better at communicating and articulating Islamic principles to modern Western audiences. None of these people are saying the Quran is outdated. But there are Bahais who, for example, would say that the Quran isn't suitable for the modern age because it promotes unfair treatment of women. That's what I would call "calling God a sexist pig". I would rather read the Quran in different ways and say that it continues to be valid. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Rich, I think I realized where the misunderstanding lies. On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:50:36 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > >I would say that the Quran can certainly be read faithfully in ways > >which oppose sexist oppression and protect the interests and concerns > >of women. And so in that sense a new religion isn't really necessary. > >I don't see how you could depart from that position very far without > >accusing God of being a sexist pig. Rich: >That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how > Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an. You can do this by criticizing what > gets accepted these days for accepable Hadith, and you can do this by > looking at what has happened tp fiqh and ijtihad in modern times. This > criticisms are not just those of some Baha'is, but of some Muslims as > well. Read Speaking inGod's Name by Khalid Abul Fadil. Gilberto: What I'm talking about is reading the Quran in non-sexist ways. > Rich > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:38:32 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rich: > That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how > Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you are saying. > What do you mean by "this"? Gilberto, > I think you probably have a good idea of what I mean by this, but for > the sake of argument, I'll explain further. By the above I mean that one > does not have to eventually criticize the Qur'an if one accepts a revelation > beyond it. Gilberto: I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it. Bahais call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly suggests that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are somehow deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or otherwise better than what came before. And when Bahais start to articulate how the Bahai writings have "progressed" over the Quran then the negative statements come into the picture. Rich: In the Qur'an it says that God gave a revelation to each of the > Prophets and perfected their religion. If this is the case then in becoming > a Muslim, and I mean a Muslim in the common accepted manner of > understanding the term, not its universal definition, thyen you must end up > > criticizing Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, (God forbid). Gilberto: I wouldn't want to set the prophets against one another. Their various messages are a repetition of the messages which came before. The differences are more "horizontal" than "vertical" for example having Friday be the emphasized day of the week rather than the Sabbath. The problem with those earlier communities is that the original revelation was no longer being faithfully transmitted. For example, I wouldn't try to say that the Quran was better than the original Gospel or the original Torah. I would question whether the texts in the current Old and New Testament really are the Torah or the Gospel. Rich: > You can do this by criticizing what > gets accepted these days for accepable Hadith, and you can do this > by looking at what has happened tp fiqh and ijtihad in modern times. Gilberto: Ok, I see what you are saying. If that's all you are talking about then that is a conversation which can and does happen within the Muslim community, in other words a group of people who think that the Quran is still valid and are not saying that it had an expiration date which has passed already. Rich: > Thiscriticisms are not just those of some Baha'is, but of some Muslims > as well. Read Speaking inGod's Name by Khalid Abul Fadil. Gilberto: Bahais are different because they think that the laws of the Quran are no longer suitable for the modern age. Abul Fadl is still Muslim. Gilberto: I'm not sure > what you mean. I think you might be agreeing with me. Ultimately, whatever > problems there are don't require leaving Islam. The fact that Khalid Abul > Fadl is still Muslim, and hasn't become Bahai teands to prove that no? Rich: > No. > I do not agree with you. I merely point out that others are grappling with > the unworkability of much of what passes for Shariah in the modern world. Gilberto: I think you are misunderstanding the point. Abul Fadl isn't just saying the Shariah is unworkable and then shopping for a new religion. He is saying that there seems to be this problem, but then as a Muslim, he is trying to help fix it. He is not just saying that Islam is over and it is time for something new. Rich: What I am saying is that religion > cannot be frozen to 7th century Arabia or to 19th century Iran. Gilberto: And what I'm saying is that Islam isn't bound to 7th century Arabia or 19th century Iran. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Rich: That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you are saying. What do you mean by "this"? Gilberto, I think you probably have a good idea of what I mean by this, but for the sake of argument, I'll explain further. By the above I mean that one does not have to eventually criticize the Qur'an if one accepts a revelation beyond it. In the Qur'an it says that God gave a revelation to each of the Prophets and perfected their religion. If this is the case then in becoming a Muslim, and I mean a Muslim in the common accepted manner of understanding the term, not its universal definition, thyen you must end up criticizing Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, (God forbid). You can do this by criticizing what gets accepted these days for accepable Hadith, and you can do this by looking at what has happened tp fiqh and ijtihad in modern times. This criticisms are not just those of some Baha'is, but of some Muslims as well. Read Speaking inGod's Name by Khalid Abul Fadil. I'm not sure what you mean. I think you might be agreeing with me. Ultimately, whatever problems there are don't require leaving Islam. The fact that Khalid Abul Fadl is still Muslim, and hasn't become Bahai teands to prove that no? No. I do not agree with you. I merely point out that others are grappling with the unworkability of much of what passes for Shariah in the modern world. I mean no disrespect here to Islam. my daughter goes to a Muslim school, she is learning Arabic and I speak Arabic. We read the Qur'an together each night in Arabic, although her accent is much better than mine, she's six and soaks up the language like a sponge. What I am saying is that religion cannot be frozen to 7th century Arabia or to 19th century Iran. As the Qur'an says: Every nation has its appointed time, and when their appointed time comes they cannot keep it back an hour, nor can they bring it on. O sons of Adam! verily, there will come to you apostles from amongst you, narrating unto you my signs; then whoso fears God and does what is right, there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. But those who say my signs are lies, and who are too big with pride for them, these are the fellows of the Fire, they shall dwell therein for aye! (The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 7 - Al Aaraf) Except for one verse in the 10th Sura, which I think is taken out of context, there is no proof in the Qur'an that wahy ended with Muhammad (PBUH). As to Hadith it's to facile to run to it. Even using isnad. So that's where we part company, but let's not stop dialogue or friendship with this disagreement. Let us instead, going back to the Qur'an, look at the following verses: Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2) To you be your religion; to me my religion. (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 109 - Unbelievers) Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Dear Gilberto, You've raised many questions. Excellent questions. In fact, some of them have been my own questions. On this point of empathy I would like to offer some comments and quotes. <> But they [the Baha'i Writings] also say all kinds of nice things about all sorts of things. But its like "killing someone with kindness". <> While at first glance it may seem like hypocrisy because we recognize that all things, inherently, can be good OR bad; if carried to excess. Throughout the Writings of Baha'u'llah, He offers examples to assist us in making distinctions between the two... just as the all the Holy Scriptures do. Yes, He praises the righteous, but He also admonishes the wrongdoers: "O ye that are foolish, yet have a name to be wise! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of the shepherd, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon My flock? Ye are even as the star, which riseth ere the dawn, and which, though it seem radiant and luminous, leadeth the wayfarers of My city astray into the paths of perdition." And likewise He saith: "O ye seeming fair yet inwardly foul! Ye are like clear but bitter water, which to outward seeming is crystal pure but of which, when tested by the Divine Assayer, not a drop is accepted. Yea, the sunbeam falls alike upon the dust and the mirror, yet differ they in reflection even as doth the star from the earth: nay, immeasurable is the difference!" (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 16) All the Manifestations have enjoined kindness upon Their followers, as does Baha'u'llah: "Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and goodwill. If it be accepted, if it fulfill its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding. (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 15)" You wrote: <> Aspects of the book are incorruptible, imperishable, impregnable and abiding. But then on further reflection the writings are saying that it is only till the year 60, no?<> In another post you asked: <> So in which "directions" can the meanings of the book be exhausted, and in which can't it? <> And, also: <> I would want to believe that there is a very deep underlying consistency in spiritual and ethical principles which is rooted in God's nature and the human condition and which isn't easily altered by changes in technology or social organization.<> <> And I thought there was a passage actually in the writings saying that previous religions (at least Islam) was intended to be universal but the blamed the behavior of the followers <> You've probably read this before, however, for me it has been the most concise definition of God's Manifestations and their respective "stations": "We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. "No distinction do We make between any of them."[1] The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."[2] [1 Qur'án 2:136.] [2 Qur'án 2:253.] It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same. ... Viewed in the light of their second station -- the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards, -- they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution and compl
RE: Not Exhausted
> Gilberto dear friend Dear Khazeh ... There are many nice things said about the Quran, and Muhammad and the imams etc. in the Bahai writings. But they also say all kinds of nice things about all sorts of things. But its like "killing someone with kindness". In the passage below it seems like certain things are being said but I'M NOT CERTAIN HOW SERIOUSLY THEY ARE BELIEVED. (OR maybe its just a translation problem). I emphasize some phrases by writing them in all caps. Perhaps you can help explain to me what is being suggested by those phrases and what they mean to you. > Wherefore, O my friend, it behooveth Us to exert the highest endeavour > to attain unto that City, and, by the grace of God and His loving-kindness, > rend asunder the "veils of glory"; so that, with inflexible steadfastness, > we may sacrifice our drooping souls in the path of the New Beloved. We > should with tearful eyes, fervently and repeatedly, implore Him to grant us > the favour of that grace. That city is none other than the Word of God > revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the > Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad the > Messenger of God the Qur'an; in this day the Bayan; and in the dispensation > of Him Whom God will make manifest His own Book - the Book unto which all > the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book which > standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme. In these cities > spiritual sustenance is bountifully provided, and INCORRUPTIBLE DELIGHTS > have been ordained. The food they bestow is the bread of heaven, and the > Spirit they impart is GOD'S IMPERISHABLE BLESSING. Upon detached souls they > bestow the gift of Unity, enrich the destitute, and offer the cup of > knowledge unto them who wander in the wilderness of ignorance. All the > guidance, the blessings, the learning, the understanding, the faith, and > certitude, conferred upon all that is in heaven and on earth, are hidden and > treasured within these Cities. > For instance, the Qur'an was an IMPREGNABLE STRONGHOLD unto the people > of Muhammad. In His days, whosoever entered therein, was shielded from the > devilish assaults, the menacing darts, the soul-devouring doubts, and > blasphemous whisperings of the enemy. Upon him was also bestowed a portion > of the everlasting and goodly fruits - the fruits of wisdom, from the divine > Tree. To him was given to drink THE INCORRUPTIBLE WATERS of the river of > knowledge, and to taste the wine of the mysteries of divine Unity. > All the things that people required in connection with the Revelation > of Muhammad and His laws were to be found revealed and manifest in that > Ridvan of resplendent glory. That Book constitutes an ABIDING TESTIMONY to > its people after Muhammad, inasmuch as its decrees are indisputable, and its > promise unfailing. [end quote] So all those highlighted words give the impression of the Quran as being a text with ongoing effects. Aspects of the book are incorruptible, imperishable, impregnable and abiding. But then on further reflection the writings are saying that it is only till the year 60, no? > All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that > Book until "the year sixty"(1260 AH) - the year of the advent of God's > wondrous Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the > seeker unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath > forsaken his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the > Tabernacle of everlasting reunion. Its guidance can never err, its > testimony no other testimony can excel. All other traditions, all other > books and records, are bereft of such distinction, inasmuch as both the > traditions and they that have spoken them are confirmed and proven solely by > the text of that Book. Moreover, the traditions themselves grievously > differ, and their obscurities are manifold. The differences and obscurities of hadith are being extremely exagerated. Peace Gilberto Dear Gilberto My dear brother in the path [sabeel] path of search after the truth. Firstly Let me say how I am touched sincerely by the way you write and by the way you pose your arguments. By reading the above passage in the Iqan and highlighting some passages you made me very happy because so many do not read deeply each other's postings dear Gilberto! But secondly and much more importantly please remember I do not write on this list for argument's sake. It is a Studies List so I can only [humbly and tentatively] indicate some areas of Studies. I cannot win an argument. Argumentation and disputation and seeking superiority in argument is strongly condemned in the Holy Writings in the Qur'an, the Bab's Writings, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah. **Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that DISPUTETH IDLY and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be
Re: Not Exhausted
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:07:24 -, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto dear friend Dear Khazeh You write below: > In the Kitab i Iqan Baha'u'llah says many wonderful things about the Holy > Qur'an: And I agree in alot of ways. There are many nice things said about the Quran, and Muhammad and the imams etc. in the Bahai writings. But they also say all kinds of nice things about all sorts of things. But its like "killing someone with kindness". In the passage below it seems like certain things are being said but I'm not certain how seriously they are believed. (OR maybe its just a translation problem). I emphasize some phrases by writing them in all caps. Perhaps you can help explain to me what is being suggested by those phrases and what they mean to you. > Wherefore, O my friend, it behooveth Us to exert the highest endeavour > to attain unto that City, and, by the grace of God and His loving-kindness, > rend asunder the "veils of glory"; so that, with inflexible steadfastness, > we may sacrifice our drooping souls in the path of the New Beloved. We > should with tearful eyes, fervently and repeatedly, implore Him to grant us > the favour of that grace. That city is none other than the Word of God > revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the > Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad the > Messenger of God the Qur'an; in this day the Bayan; and in the dispensation > of Him Whom God will make manifest His own Book - the Book unto which all > the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book which > standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme. In these cities > spiritual sustenance is bountifully provided, and INCORRUPTIBLE DELIGHTS > have been ordained. The food they bestow is the bread of heaven, and the > Spirit they impart is GOD'S IMPERISHABLE BLESSING. Upon detached souls they > bestow the gift of Unity, enrich the destitute, and offer the cup of > knowledge unto them who wander in the wilderness of ignorance. All the > guidance, the blessings, the learning, the understanding, the faith, and > certitude, conferred upon all that is in heaven and on earth, are hidden and > treasured within these Cities. > For instance, the Qur'an was an IMPREGNABLE STRONGHOLD unto the people > of Muhammad. In His days, whosoever entered therein, was shielded from the > devilish assaults, the menacing darts, the soul-devouring doubts, and > blasphemous whisperings of the enemy. Upon him was also bestowed a portion > of the everlasting and goodly fruits - the fruits of wisdom, from the divine > Tree. To him was given to drink THE INCORRUPTIBLE WATERS of the river of > knowledge, and to taste the wine of the mysteries of divine Unity. > All the things that people required in connection with the Revelation > of Muhammad and His laws were to be found revealed and manifest in that > Ridvan of resplendent glory. That Book constitutes an ABIDING TESTIMONY to > its people after Muhammad, inasmuch as its decrees are indisputable, and its > promise unfailing. [end quote] So all those highlighted words give the impression of the Quran as being a text with ongoing effects. Aspects of the book are incorruptible, imperishable, impregnable and abiding. But then on further reflection the writings are saying that it is only till the year 60, no? > All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that > Book until "the year sixty"(1260 AH) - the year of the advent of God's > wondrous Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the > seeker unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath > forsaken his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the > Tabernacle of everlasting reunion. Its guidance can never err, its > testimony no other testimony can excel. All other traditions, all other > books and records, are bereft of such distinction, inasmuch as both the > traditions and they that have spoken them are confirmed and proven solely by > the text of that Book. Moreover, the traditions themselves grievously > differ, and their obscurities are manifold. The differences and obscurities of hadith are being extremely exagerated. Even if you look at the split between sunni and shia, which is probably the most contraversial difference of opinion in Islam, there are several events which for shia are important for trying to show that Muhammad (saaws) designated Ali (ra) as his successor. The amazing thing is that many of these instances are actually described in the sunni collections as well. In other words, sunnis and shias, even on these contraversal points, the hadith agree about what was said. The difference of opinion is what the words mean and what their implications are. > Muhammad, Himself, as the end of His mission drew nigh, spoke these > words: "Verily, I leave amongst you My twin weighty testimonies: The Book > of God and My Family." >
RE: Not Exhausted
Gilberto dear friend Dr Susan says nice things about many people. She is the essence of fairness, objectivity, and erudition but in the matter of some lowly ones like this dust she says very nice things that are as warn as December weather outside is freezing. In the Kitab i Iqan Baha'u'llah says many wonderful things about the Holy Qur'an: This passage about a seeker seeking the City of God is a most remarkable passage. I beg you [and others interested to peruse it with love and devotion]. I will do so tonight and we shall become WEDDED TO THAT CITY [THE BOOK OF GOD] THAT A MOMENT'S SEPARATION WOULD BE UNTHINKABLE. Yours truly humbly and definitely undeserving of Susan's kind praise khazeh ** They that valiantly labour in quest of God's will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, will be so attached and wedded to that City that a moment's separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and re-adorned. Wherefore, O my friend, it behooveth Us to exert the highest endeavour to attain unto that City, and, by the grace of God and His loving-kindness, rend asunder the "veils of glory"; so that, with inflexible steadfastness, we may sacrifice our drooping souls in the path of the New Beloved. We should with tearful eyes, fervently and repeatedly, implore Him to grant us the favour of that grace. That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad the Messenger of God the Qur'an; in this day the Bayan; and in the dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest His own Book - the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book which standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme. In these cities spiritual sustenance is bountifully provided, and incorruptible delights have been ordained. The food they bestow is the bread of heaven, and the Spirit they impart is God's imperishable blessing. Upon detached souls they bestow the gift of Unity, enrich the destitute, and offer the cup of knowledge unto them who wander in the wilderness of ignorance. All the guidance, the blessings, the learning, the understanding, the faith, and certitude, conferred upon all that is in heaven and on earth, are hidden and treasured within these Cities. For instance, the Qur'an was an impregnable stronghold unto the people of Muhammad. In His days, whosoever entered therein, was shielded from the devilish assaults, the menacing darts, the soul-devouring doubts, and blasphemous whisperings of the enemy. Upon him was also bestowed a portion of the everlasting and goodly fruits - the fruits of wisdom, from the divine Tree. To him was given to drink the incorruptible waters of the river of knowledge, and to taste the wine of the mysteries of divine Unity. All the things that people required in connection with the Revelation of Muhammad and His laws were to be found revealed and manifest in that Ridvan of resplendent glory. That Book constitutes an abiding testimony to its people after Muhammad, inasmuch as its decrees are indisputable, and its promise unfailing. All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that Book until "the year sixty"(1260 AH) - the year of the advent of God's wondrous Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the seeker unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath forsaken his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the Tabernacle of everlasting reunion. Its guidance can never err, its testimony no other testimony can excel. All other traditions, all other books and records, are bereft of such distinction, inasmuch as both the traditions and they that have spoken them are confirmed and proven solely by the text of that Book. Moreover, the traditions themselves grievously differ, and their obscurities are manifold. Muhammad, Himself, as the end of His mission drew nigh, spoke these words: "Verily, I leave amongst you My twin weighty testimonies: The Book of God and My Family." (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 198-201) Interestingly of course the exalted Bab was both the "Family" and the Book [from the Bayan] *** There are two proofs from God to men: the signs (or verses) of God, and he to whom they are revealed. The first are a permanent and evident proof till the Day of Resurrection; the second is an evident proof only so long as the period of the Manifestation lasts. ... Every - things is mentioned - either confirmed or forbidden - in the Bayan. For the 'Silent Book' (Kitab-i-S.aamit) there is a 'Speaking Book' (Kitab-i-Naat.iq) appointed by God, and neither one can exist without
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:22:47 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Please look at all the links I included in the e-mail you are > responding to. If you are having problems opening those links I could > do a cut-and-paste job for you (or anyone) and mail them to the list." > Dear Gilberto, > Ah yes, there is one woman in a non-Muslim country that is able to function > as a mufti and another woman in Egypt who is trying to. No. You don't have to sound so snide about it, especially if you are mistaken.. The article on the situation in India talks about *several* women acting as muftis there, not just one. And if you read the other links, especially the very first one it specifically addresses your "questions". Yes, Aishah was considered a scholar, and actually issued rulings on several issues, and overruled the opinions of men she wasn't just a reciter of hadith. And throughout the centuries, in differnet times and places in Muslim history, women have been muftis (not just hadith scholars). Many of the great male scholars had female teachers. There is no religious question of whether or not women can be muftis. And according to the oldest sunni school of Islamic law, women can be judges. Peace Gilberto Why aren't there more female judges or scholars? It has more to do with cultural stuff that Muslim countries need to work out but it isn't a religious question. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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"Please look at all the links I included in the e-mail you are responding to. If you are having problems opening those links I could do a cut-and-paste job for you (or anyone) and mail them to the list." Dear Gilberto, Ah yes, there is one woman in a non-Muslim country that is able to function as a mufti and another woman in Egypt who is trying to. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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"Because of many pressures and problems this servant did not wish to interfere in your conversation" Please do, Khazeh jan. Part of the reason I invited Gilberto to participate here (after so many of his postings on SRB were being rejected) is because I was hoping the two of you might become acquianted with one another. Gilberto, meet Khazeh, one of the most learned participants on this list. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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In a message dated 12/11/2004 1:14:02 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Susan:> In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true> scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including> Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. Gilberto: So in which "directions" can the meanings of the book beexhausted, and in which can't it? I do not meant to intrude, but I would like to interject a thought. Any of the Scriptures is incapable of having its meaning exhausted, because it is the revelation of God and God's covenant and message is infinite and inexhaustible. However, the message given by any of the human authors of the Scripture is exactly what God intends for Him to reveal. God may intend to reveal more at a different time and in a different message and it is up to the messenger to be submissive to the will of God in what He reveals. Therefore, the revelation of God in its totality is indeed as inexhaustible as God Himself, but as Jesus said in the Gospels, "I have much to tell you, but you cannot bear it now." He left more of the particular message to be revealed in the future. Since there is no end to the Revelation of God and the cycle of His messengers, therefore the message of God is inexhaustible. As it is, each of the individual scriptures contains far more than man can decipher from that Revelation alone. In order to understand that the meaning of a particular scripture can not be exhausted one must consider that the message is not truly complete in any of the individual scriptures and NEW meaning will be found in light of further revelation. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:44:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Name some female muftis for me and > > cite the fetwas they issued which others followed. > > Aisha (ra) is obviously one big early one" > > Dear Gilberto, > > To my knowledge Aisha was honored as a hadith reciter, not a mufti. Which > muftis are currently practicing in the Islamic world? Please look at all the links I included in the e-mail you are responding to. If you are having problems opening those links I could do a cut-and-paste job for you (or anyone) and mail them to the list. Peace -Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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In a message dated 12/11/2004 7:31:17 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In the Bahai faith womencan't participate in combat and can't be on the UHJ to make legalrulings, "Even" in Islam women like Khadijah owned their ownbusinesses, women led troops in battle, and women can study to becomescholars and muftis and make legal rulings. There is nothing in the writings to my knowledge that keeps a woman from owning a business, or being a soldier, or become a scholar, lawyer, judge or academic. Baha`u'llah says "9 men" on the Universal House of Justice, I don't know why. I fail to understand. But Abdu'l Baha says the wisdom of that will become apparent in the future. As it is the National Spiritual Assemblies (which are nascent national Housesof Justice) and regional councils and local assemblies are many times with a majority of female membership amongst the nine. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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Dear Susan Maneck and Gilberto Simpson I swear by God Because of many pressures and problems this servant did not wish to interfere in your conversation but there are so many postings by you that I thought I should just add one or two references in the spirit of love and understanding. 1] each of the religious Dispensations in the recent past if read selectively can be said to have both a limited and a universal sphere of applicability. For example in the Dispensation of Christ we have the Universal applicability of His divine redemptive mission in John 3:16 Joh 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED. But in terms of restrictive limited applicability of His mission we have in the story of the Canaanite woman Mt 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. Mt 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying; Send her away; for she crieth after us. Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. Mt 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and TO CAST IT TO DOGS. Mt 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: YET THE DOGS EAT OF THE CRUMBS WHICH FALL FROM THEIR MASTERS' TABLE. 2 Similarly in the Holy Quran we read that the Mission of the Prophet Muhammad was limited according to this verse 006.092 YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities [UMMAL-QURAA =Mecca] and all around her.. PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Villages and those around her. SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; And yet other verses enlarge this compass 025.001 YUSUFALI: Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be AN ADMONITION TO ALL CREATURES;- PICKTHAL: Blessed is He Who hath revealed unto His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), THAT HE MAY BE A WARNER TO THE PEOPLES. SHAKIR: Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be A WARNER TO THE NATIONS; So spiritually the divine Message is Universal but what about the range of applicability of its laws?... Again we read in the Sacred Iqan Heed not the idle contention of those who maintain that the Book and verses thereof can never be a testimony unto the common people, inasmuch as they neither grasp their meaning nor appreciate their value. And yet, the unfailing testimony of God to both the East and the West is none other than the Qur'án. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 210) And if thou deniest this, thou hast surely repudiated the truth of the Qur'án, the surest testimony of God unto men. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 151) That Book [the Quran] constitutes an abiding testimony to its people after Muhammad, inasmuch as its decrees are indisputable, and its promise unfailing. All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that Book until "the year sixty"[1260 AH] -- the year of the advent of God's wondrous Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the seeker unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath forsaken his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the Tabernacle of everlasting reunion. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 200) "Shoghi Effendi hopes that your lectures will not only serve to deepen the knowledge of the believers in the doctrines and culture and culture of Islam, but will set their hearts afire with the love of everything that vitally pertains to Muhammad and His Faith. "There is so much misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced nay guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization. "The Bahá'í view on that subject is that the Dispensation of Muhammad, like all other Divine Dispensations, has been fore-ordained, and that as such forms and integral part of the Divine Plan for the spiritual, moral and social, development of mankind, It is no
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> Name some female muftis for me and> cite the fetwas they issued which others followed. Aisha (ra) is obviously one big early one" Dear Gilberto, To my knowledge Aisha was honored as a hadith reciter, not a mufti. Which muftis are currently practicing in the Islamic world? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:19:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/11/2004 10:45:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Where are you getting that from? Susan: > For gosh sakes, Gilberto. Have you never seen the fatwas to the effect that > women should not be in positions of political authority because political > leaders engage in war, and women aren't supposed to do this? Gilberto: No, I actually haven't. I honestly have never heard that argument made in any Islamic contexts. But in our discussions a few months or so ago, I had speculated that this was perhaps one conceivable "justification" for excluding women from the UHJ, namely that in the future when Bahais have taken over (?) the UHJ would conceivably use military force to enforce its rulings and since women, the givers of life, shouldn't also be givers of death, they shouldn't participate. Gilberto: I've never heard of nor seen any ayat of Quran or hadith which even suggests that women shouldn't be soldiers. Susan: > There was a female Ayatullah at the time of the Iranian revolution. But she > > could do ijtihad only on her own behalf, no own could follow her. Gilberto: I'm not particularly interested in defending Shiism. > "Women can certainly be judges in the Hanafi madhab which is the > largest and the oldest of the four traditional sunni schools." Susan: > Qazis and muftis are different things. I know that. And women can do both. > Name some female muftis for me and > cite the fetwas they issued which others followed. Aisha (ra) is obviously one big early one Here is a discussion of some past female scholars through the centuries. They didn't just give rulings on women's issues either, but on business matters, acts of worship, and other issues. And they overrode the rulings of men: http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/fiqha_e77.html The site below discusses female hadith scholars, which is less relevant to what we are talking about but I include it for thoroughness. http://www.islamfortoday.com/womenscholars.htm Here are some interesting stories in the recent news http://www.onlinewomeninpolitics.org/archives/03_1005_in_wid.htm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3067758/site/newsweek/ If there are more prominent male scholars than female scholars in Islam it is overwhelmingly because of sociological reasons, not theological ones. > "And historically Aishah led troops" > Yes, against the Iman and Caliph Ali! Not the most Islamic act she ever did. Granted, that's not the best example in history, but the important thing to realize is that the soldiers didn't go "Hey wait a minue, the prophet told us that women shouldn't be doing that!" A different example would be Khaula, the sister of Dhirar Bin Al-Azwan, who fought under Khalid Bin Walid in the time of Abu Bakr (so just a few years after the prophet passed). And I'm fairly certain I'd read about a female sahaba fighting on the battlefield in the time of the prophet. > Yes, I believe the Qur'an is the Word of God and yes I believe God is > merciful and just. But no, it does not follow that one can apply everything > the Qur'an says about women in this day and be treating them either justly > or mercifully. We've had this same discussion before. If Bahais are willing to be flexible and bend issues which Muslims tend to be more rigid on (e.g. "seal of the prophets means last prophet", the non-crucifixion, Jesus isn't the son of God, Jesus isn't divine, etc.) then Muslims can be flexible in finding ways to make sense of the text which are compassionate and just to women. Personally, I tend not to find the former kinds of arguments very convincing, but the latter kind of "flexibility" seems natural and even necessary. > A doctor may well prescribe a medicine for one patient at one > time which will be poison to him at another. > 017.082 We send down (stage by stage) in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:20:09 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Gilberto: > > > "And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about > > > the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it." > > Susan: > > > I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social > > equality > > > of women as we presently understand it. > > Gilberto: > > When you say that it makes me think that on some level you don't > > really believe that the Quran is from God > [D.A.L.] I struggle with the Qu'ran also. Gilberto: I respect that and think its an honest answer. I think that what happens in the case of many people coming to Islam from Western backgrounds is that there is this struggle and wrestling with the Quran but eventually the Quran wins. : ) > I think that part of the problem > is that from what I understand, it is nearly impossible to faithfully render > Arabic directly into English. (This also says something about biblical > inerrantists). I was thinking of mentioning this earlier now is probably more appropriate. I don't think of myself as very post-modern, but Mark's earlier point about reading and meaning might be appropriate here. I mean, there is a question of whether ANY text, especially religious ones can be "rendered faithfully". If he is right, then one approach might be that the Quran isn't telling anybody to do anything (so in particular it isn't telling anyone to be sexist). But when you read the Quran, you meditate on the words, and you contemplate the consequences of your own actions and act accordingly. > On the other hand, knowing that the Qu'ran was revealed to a time and > culture radically different from our own seems to resolve the difficulty. > The principle of progressive revelation doesn't invalidate the Qu'ran, but > it does mean that we are expected to move forward. Every former revelation > was directed toward a particular time and culture, each with its unique set > of parameters. This is the first time the world has been presented with a > truly universal revelation. I see things very differently. Islam, Christianity, and in some ways even Judaism claim to have a revelation which is "truly universal". In Islam there are explicit texts saying that the Muhammad was sent to all mankind and that the Quran was as well. If you look at all the societies Islam had spread to from the time of Muhammad by 1843, in Africa, Spain, Eastern and Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, Spain as well as the Middle East I'm not sure how convincing it is to say that Islam was just meant for a very narrow range of cultures. There is actually a really interesting comment attributed to the Bahai figures, unfortunately it is just a Pilgrim's Note: " It is blasphemy to believe that Islam was not meant to be a universal religion." And I thought there was a passage actually in the writings saying that previous religions (at least Islam) was intended to be universal but the blamed the behavior of the followers Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/11/2004 10:45:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where are you getting that from? For gosh sakes, Gilberto. Have you never seen the fatwas to the effect that women should not be in positions of political authority because political leaders engage in war, and women aren't supposed to do this? Can a woman be the Caliph? There was a female Ayatullah at the time of the Iranian revolution. But she could do ijtihad only on her own behalf, no own could follow her. "Women can certainly be judges in the Hanafi madhab which is thelargest and the oldest of the four traditional sunni schools." Qazis and muftis are different things. Name some female muftis for me and cite the fetwas they issued which others followed. "And historically Aishah led troops" Yes, against the Iman and Caliph Ali! Not the most Islamic act she ever did. Yes, I believe the Qur'an is the Word of God and yes I believe God is merciful and just. But no, it does not follow that one can apply everything the Qur'an says about women in this day and be treating them either justly or mercifully. A doctor may well prescribe a medicine for one patient at one time which will be poison to him at another. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:12:05 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > "In the Bahai faith women > can't participate in combat and can't be on the UHJ to make legal > rulings," Susan: > That's true. As I said, even our scriptures have their limitations. Gilberto: > ""Even" in Islam women like Khadijah owned their own > businesses, women led troops in battle, and women can study to become > scholars and muftis and make legal rulings." Susan: > The majority of Muslim scholars would insist that women leading troops into > battle and making legal decisions binding on men is contrary to the > Shar'iah. Where are you getting that from? And can it be justified from the Quran. Women can certainly be judges in the Hanafi madhab which is the largest and the oldest of the four traditional sunni schools. And historically Aishah led troops (although I remember that the last time I mentioned that, you indicated you weren't a fan of hers). And she was consulted as an authority after the passing of the prophet (ra). > "If you think God is compassionate and just, and you believe that the > Quran is the word of God, then you should be able to follow the Quran > and treat women with compassion and justice. If you don't believe the > conclusion I would have serious doubts about whether you believed the > premises." > I believe my premises not yours, namely that the Qur'an is the Word of God > but not everything in it is applicable in this Day. > Aren't the premises I mentioned affirmed by the Bahai faith? ??? Peace GIlberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
> Gilberto: > > "And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about > > the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it." > > Susan: > > I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social > equality > > of women as we presently understand it. > > Gilberto: > When you say that it makes me think that on some level you don't > really believe that the Quran is from God [D.A.L.] I struggle with the Qu'ran also. I think that part of the problem is that from what I understand, it is nearly impossible to faithfully render Arabic directly into English. (This also says something about biblical inerrantists). On the other hand, knowing that the Qu'ran was revealed to a time and culture radically different from our own seems to resolve the difficulty. The principle of progressive revelation doesn't invalidate the Qu'ran, but it does mean that we are expected to move forward. Every former revelation was directed toward a particular time and culture, each with its unique set of parameters. This is the first time the world has been presented with a truly universal revelation. Dave Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
"When you say that it makes me think that on some level you don't really believe that the Quran is from God" It doesn't make you think anything, Gilberto. It is what you choose to think. "If you are actually calling the scripture limited how could that not be a criticism of the scripture itself?" I believe that our scriptures have their limitations as well and I'm not criticizing them by saying that. I don't believe, for instance, that women will be excluded from the Universal House of Justice eternally. When the next Manifestation comes along, "She doeth whatsoever She willeth." ;-} "I mean, if you are really not criticizing the scripture itself and the problem lies in the application" Or maybe the problems lies in that we are not working off the same presuppositions. "In the Bahai faith women can't participate in combat and can't be on the UHJ to make legal rulings," That's true. As I said, even our scriptures have their limitations. ""Even" in Islam women like Khadijah owned their own businesses, women led troops in battle, and women can study to become scholars and muftis and make legal rulings." The majority of Muslim scholars would insist that women leading troops into battle and making legal decisions binding on men is contrary to the Shar'iah. "If you think God is compassionate and just, and you believe that the Quran is the word of God, then you should be able to follow the Quran and treat women with compassion and justice. If you don't believe the conclusion I would have serious doubts about whether you believed the premises." I believe my premises not yours, namely that the Qur'an is the Word of God but not everything in it is applicable in this Day. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:57:42 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > "And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about > the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it." Susan: > I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social equality > of women as we presently understand it. Gilberto: When you say that it makes me think that on some level you don't really believe that the Quran is from God and that you especially don't really believe the pretty speeches in the Bahai writings about inexhaustible meanings of the word of God which inspired this thread. It makes me think that you are choosing to fix the meaning of the Quran to a rigid unflattering set of rules, so that you can declare it outdated. But Muslims today certainly can read the Quran faithfully and authentically, but in ways which oppose sexism and protect the interests of women. A good example, of this would be Amina Wadud's book about the Quran and women (which is still on my shopping list). Gilberto: > "it means > you want to have it [the Bahai faith] compare favorably to Islam and the > Quran > and it is difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of > statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God." Susan: > Recognizing a scripture's limitations is not necessarily a criticism of the > scripture itself, though it might well be a criticism of its application. Gilberto: That sounds contradictory to me. If you are actually calling the scripture limited how could that not be a criticism of the scripture itself? I mean, if you are really not criticizing the scripture itself and the problem lies in the application (perhaps working through the pre-existing cultural biases) then one could continue to apply the scripture and then gradually deepen and reform the society. Susan: > The Qur'an did what it could to improve the position of women at the time it > was written. Full eguality was neither possible nor even desirable then. This is also the Return of another discussion but the Bahai faith's view shouldn't be called "full equality". In the Bahai faith women can't participate in combat and can't be on the UHJ to make legal rulings, "Even" in Islam women like Khadijah owned their own businesses, women led troops in battle, and women can study to become scholars and muftis and make legal rulings. If you think God is compassionate and just, and you believe that the Quran is the word of God, then you should be able to follow the Quran and treat women with compassion and justice. If you don't believe the conclusion I would have serious doubts about whether you believed the premises. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
"And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it." Dear Gilberto, I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social equality of women as we presently understand it. "it means you want to have it compare favorably to Islam and the Quran and it is difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God." Recognizing a scripture's limitations is not necessarily a criticism of the scripture itself, though it might well be a criticism of its application. The Qur'an did what it could to improve the position of women at the time it was written. Full eguality was neither possible nor even desirable then. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:01:07 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "[6:38] > "We have not neglected anything in the Book," Gilberto: > And I would say that the basic essentials are there [the Quran], and the rest > is just detail." Susan: > What is 'essential' in one age may not have been so essential previously. > There are a lot of details in the Qur'an I don't consider essential at all, > but it seems to be silent on other issues which are extremely important to > me, like the eguality of women and men. Gilberto: Yes, we've had this discussion before, several times it seems, in soc.religion.bahai. (Is this what Bahais mean by the Return... lol) And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent about the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it. I think there is a very thin tight-rope which I don't believe can be walked skillfully, at least not using the approaches I've seen. In order to order to say the Bahai faith represents progress, it means you want to have it compare favorably to Islam and the Quran and it is difficult-to-impossible to do that without being critical of statements in the Quran, which you say also come from God. I would say that the Quran can certainly be read faithfully in ways which oppose sexist oppression and protect the interests and concerns of women. And so in that sense a new religion isn't really necessary. I don't see how you could depart from that position very far without accusing God of being a sexist pig. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
Hello Gilberto, I followed some of your discussions with Susan on another list, and I always thought that your comments and were very logical and well thought out. Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
"I have a Christian friend with whom I often get into long religious discussions. And one time he tried to argue that Christianity is better and more complete than Islam essentially because the Bible is a bigger book than the Quran. And he would go on and on about how the Bible has everything you need." Dear Gilberto, I've sometimes heard Baha'is repeat the same thing but the only authoriative text they gave for this was half a sentence written on bahelf of the Guardian which appears in one of the Palabra books. "[6:38] "We have not neglected anything in the Book," And I would say that the basic essentials are there, and the rest is just detail." What is 'essential' in one age may not have been so essential previously. There are a lot of details in the Qur'an I don't consider essential at all, but it seems to be silent on other issues which are extremely important to me, like the eguality of women and men. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:12:17 -0600, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto: So in which "directions" can the meanings of the book be > exhausted, and in which can't it? > Dear Gilberto, > What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of > God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to > answer every question that will ever be asked. Sure. I have a Christian friend with whom I often get into long religious discussions. And one time he tried to argue that Christianity is better and more complete than Islam essentially because the Bible is a bigger book than the Quran. And he would go on and on about how the Bible has everything you need. At that point I would ask him whether his mom's phone number is also in the Bible. Yes there are going to be specific pieces of information which are not contained in whatever book but at the same time, the Quran says of itself [6:38] "We have not neglected anything in the Book," And I would say that the basic essentials are there, and the rest is just detail. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: So in which "directions" can the meanings of the book be exhausted, and in which can't it? Dear Gilberto, What I'm suggesting is that there are endless depths to any true Word of God. But that doesn't mean that any particular Book can be expected to answer every question that will ever be asked. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:21:42 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, > > exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with > > undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. > >Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 > Does this apply to the Quran as well? Susan: > In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true > scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including > Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. Gilberto: So in which "directions" can the meanings of the book be exhausted, and in which can't it? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, > exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with > undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. > > Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 Does this apply to the Quran as well? For those of you who don't know Gilberto, he is a Muslim who I invited onto this list. In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
