Re: Recent House letter
> Interesting. So then the House are introducing something new now?
Yes, but I think it is certainly in keeping with the principles
formerly laid down by the Guardian.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Recent House letter
In my community we have about 75 believers on the rolls. I can think of 15 of
them off the top of my head who possess the qualities Shoghi Effendi
enumerates. What's the problem where you are?
Regards,
Scott
David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Susan,
>My
> > guess of
> > what Shoghi Effendi meant when he spoke of varied elements in the
> > community
> > would relate to the skills different people can offer. Certainly
> > not to
> > making sure we have a diverse mix of ethnic groups on the
> > Assembly.
>
>Dear David,
>
>Why is that certain?
It may not be certain, but I don't see why it would refer to what you
mention. Without him expanding on that one word I would look to other
letters where he told us how to vote to see what may have been meant. The
other letters don't mention diversity in a demographic sense.
> > I can't see how Shoghi Effendi could have been more clear. He
> > says "only"
> > those who best combine the qualities.
>
>The House letter isn't saying anything different. But there are often
>a number of people who combine these qualities and when they do there
>is no reason not to make things like diversity and gender equity a
>consideration as well.
I may be missing something, but I'm not sure you have answered my main
problem. Yes, I agree there are often a number of people who combine the
qualities. But Shoghi Effendi says we should vote for the nine people who
*best* combine the qualities. You and the House seem to be treating it as
an all or nothing. Shoghi Effendi said to vote for the nine who best
combine the qualities, not to vote for nine that have the qualities. If all
we were required to do was choose nine with the necessary qualities then I
understand how we could look at other issues. I was under the understanding
that it's not necessarily good enough to have the qualities, one must be one
of the nine who has them the most to be picked.
> I can't see how the new
> > advice is not
> > disregarding this?
>
>I don't see how it is.
If one can't decide between a couple people I can understand taking other
factors into account to settle things. The House doesn't mention this. Can
you tell me how thinking of diversity and gender while deciding to vote for
is at all necessary if we are to vote for only those who combine certain
spiritual and intellectual qualities? I still don't understand how one can
factor in diversity and still be likely to come to the same decision
regarding whom to vote for.
> > If what I'm hearing is correct the House is now saying that we
> > don't have to
> > vote for the best nine people.
>
>No, they are simply ackowledging the fact that there might well be
>more than nine, and when there are we have other things we can
>consider.
Are you suggesting those additional people are tied in ability with one or
more of the others? If they aren't as good as the others then I don't know
why you'd vote for them. There might well be more than nine that are what?
Good? It doesn't matter if they're good, but good enough to make the nine
was what I've always thought.
> tell us
> > to regard
> > personalities (to achieve diversity).
>
>Where is there anything in that letter about personalities?
Well, individually it could have that effect. Assuming it was understood
the same elsewhere as in my community. If it weren't for a 21-year-old who
just moved to my community I'd probably now be a shoo-in for election, given
I'd be the only person in my community in their 20's! I'd be interested to
know from others how the letter was interpreted. Are people going to still
vote for the best nine judging by the qualities mentioned? One can assume
the LSA's worldwide are going to have far more diversity this Ridvan. But
are they going to be any more capable? I do worry about the progress of the
Faith since I'm not at all confident the letter from the House is going to
result in more capable Assemblies.
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
To put it simply: No.
David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Susan,
>The Guardian doesn't have to have mentioned those. Electorial
>proceedures fall ultimately under the purview of the authority of the
>Universal House of Justice, not the Guardianship.
Interesting. So then the House are introducing something new now?
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear Susan,
My
> guess of
> what Shoghi Effendi meant when he spoke of varied elements in the
> community
> would relate to the skills different people can offer. Certainly
> not to
> making sure we have a diverse mix of ethnic groups on the
> Assembly.
Dear David,
Why is that certain?
It may not be certain, but I don't see why it would refer to what you
mention. Without him expanding on that one word I would look to other
letters where he told us how to vote to see what may have been meant. The
other letters don't mention diversity in a demographic sense.
> I can't see how Shoghi Effendi could have been more clear. He
> says "only"
> those who best combine the qualities.
The House letter isn't saying anything different. But there are often
a number of people who combine these qualities and when they do there
is no reason not to make things like diversity and gender equity a
consideration as well.
I may be missing something, but I'm not sure you have answered my main
problem. Yes, I agree there are often a number of people who combine the
qualities. But Shoghi Effendi says we should vote for the nine people who
*best* combine the qualities. You and the House seem to be treating it as
an all or nothing. Shoghi Effendi said to vote for the nine who best
combine the qualities, not to vote for nine that have the qualities. If all
we were required to do was choose nine with the necessary qualities then I
understand how we could look at other issues. I was under the understanding
that it's not necessarily good enough to have the qualities, one must be one
of the nine who has them the most to be picked.
I can't see how the new
> advice is not
> disregarding this?
I don't see how it is.
If one can't decide between a couple people I can understand taking other
factors into account to settle things. The House doesn't mention this. Can
you tell me how thinking of diversity and gender while deciding to vote for
is at all necessary if we are to vote for only those who combine certain
spiritual and intellectual qualities? I still don't understand how one can
factor in diversity and still be likely to come to the same decision
regarding whom to vote for.
> If what I'm hearing is correct the House is now saying that we
> don't have to
> vote for the best nine people.
No, they are simply ackowledging the fact that there might well be
more than nine, and when there are we have other things we can
consider.
Are you suggesting those additional people are tied in ability with one or
more of the others? If they aren't as good as the others then I don't know
why you'd vote for them. There might well be more than nine that are what?
Good? It doesn't matter if they're good, but good enough to make the nine
was what I've always thought.
tell us
> to regard
> personalities (to achieve diversity).
Where is there anything in that letter about personalities?
Well, individually it could have that effect. Assuming it was understood
the same elsewhere as in my community. If it weren't for a 21-year-old who
just moved to my community I'd probably now be a shoo-in for election, given
I'd be the only person in my community in their 20's! I'd be interested to
know from others how the letter was interpreted. Are people going to still
vote for the best nine judging by the qualities mentioned? One can assume
the LSA's worldwide are going to have far more diversity this Ridvan. But
are they going to be any more capable? I do worry about the progress of the
Faith since I'm not at all confident the letter from the House is going to
result in more capable Assemblies.
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
David wrote: <> My guess of what Shoghi Effendi meant when he spoke of varied
elements in the community would relate to the skills different people can
offer. Certainly not to making sure we have a diverse mix of ethnic groups on
the Assembly.<>
I think the Guardian's intentions are made clear in the following:
If any discrimination is at all to be tolerated, it should be a discrimination
not against, but rather in favor of the minority, be it racial or otherwise. .
. . So great and vital is this principle that in such circumstances, as when an
equal number of ballots have been cast in an election . . . [and] are balanced
between the various races, faiths or nationalities within the community,
priority should unhesitatingly be accorded the party representing the minority,
and this for no other reason except to stimulate and encourage it, and afford
it an opportunity to further the interests of the community.
(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 34)
Bearing in mind the extreme desirability of having the minority elements
participate and share responsibility in the conduct of Bahá'í activity, it
should be the duty of every Bahá'í community so to arrange its affairs that in
cases where individuals belonging to the diverse minority elements within it
are already qualified and fulfill the necessary requirements, Bahá'í
representative institutions, be they Assemblies, conventions, conferences, or
committees, may have represented on them as many of these diverse elements,
racial or otherwise, as possible.
Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, pp. 35-36
Sandra
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear Susan,
The Guardian doesn't have to have mentioned those. Electorial
proceedures fall ultimately under the purview of the authority of the
Universal House of Justice, not the Guardianship.
Interesting. So then the House are introducing something new now?
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
> If a man and woman have a tie for the ninth seat, it goes to the
> woman with no tie breaker.
Dear Scott,
I've never seen this applied to women, only to minorities. Gender has
never been an issue on most Local Spiritual Assemblies, as there tend
to be more female members than men. But a fewer proportion of women
are elected delegates at unit convention.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Recent House letter
My
> guess of
> what Shoghi Effendi meant when he spoke of varied elements in the
> community
> would relate to the skills different people can offer. Certainly
> not to
> making sure we have a diverse mix of ethnic groups on the
> Assembly.
Dear David,
Why is that certain?
> I can't see how Shoghi Effendi could have been more clear. He
> says "only"
> those who best combine the qualities.
The House letter isn't saying anything different. But there are often
a number of people who combine these qualities and when they do there
is no reason not to make things like diversity and gender equity a
consideration as well.
I can't see how the new
> advice is not
> disregarding this?
I don't see how it is.
> If what I'm hearing is correct the House is now saying that we
> don't have to
> vote for the best nine people.
No, they are simply ackowledging the fact that there might well be
more than nine, and when there are we have other things we can
consider.
tell us
> to regard
> personalities (to achieve diversity).
Where is there anything in that letter about personalities?
I realize the House isn't
> infallible
> as far as interpretation, but I wouldn't expect them to err. I'll
> now have a
> read of their message.
This isn't an issue of interpretation. It is an issue involving
electorial proceedures which the Guardian himself admitted the House
has ultimate authority over. In fact, he indicated that his own
policies were only tentative pending the election of the House.
warmest, Susan
>
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Re: Recent House letter
> Doesn't the word "only" imply that only what is mentioned here can
> be
> considered? The House makes various appeals to Shoghi Effendi in
> the
> relevant paragraph, but a quotation is noticeably absent when they
> say:
> "From among the pool of those whom the elector believes to be
> qualified to
> serve, selection should be made with due consideration given to
> such other
> factors as age distribution, diversity, and gender." Where did
> they get
> that from? Where did Shoghi Effendi talk about those factors?
Dear David,
The Guardian doesn't have to have mentioned those. Electorial
proceedures fall ultimately under the purview of the authority of the
Universal House of Justice, not the Guardianship.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear Scott,
Thank you very much!
(in fact I thought Mr Teller was a wellknown writer of a report)
(-;
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Recent House letter
When the election call is sent out the assembly appoints a chief teller and
assistant teller. They are responsible for counting the ballots.
They report:total ballots cast, total ballots cast in person, total ballots
absentee, total number of invalid ballots, and the nine individuals elected
with the number of votes they received.
If there is a tit for the ninth seat, they report that.
Then whoever is in charge of the meeting asks the believers present to accept
the teller's report, and the individual with the most votes for the assembly
convenes the new assembly's first meeting where officers are elected.
Once the teller's report is accepted the teller's report is used to fill out
the election returns to national and it's all done.
Since there is no electioneering allowed, there are no individual candidates
to file petitions for re-counts and all that stuff. There are always two or
three tellers and they have to submit the report unanimously what room is there
for contention?
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry for being so ignorant...
what is the "Teller report"?
- Original Message -
From: "SKYGRAM"
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Recent House letter
Scott,
Yes, I suppose that would be the best time to complain. I go back a
bit more than that and I too have never seen it, though I wish I had.
But if you were not at the elections themselves, would contacting the
assembly itself be the proper course of action? Would contacting a
counselor at the same time also be an approach?
Is the why the number of votes won by individual assembly members is
given at that time to the members of the community?
Bill
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Old Pub
Re: Recent House letter
David,
Given what Abdu'l Baha says about the Universal House of Justice in His Will
and Testament, the best way to understand their statements, in my view, is to
begin from the assumption that they are protected from error and guided by
Baha'u'llah and the Bab.
It is inconceivable that they would ever contradict what Shoghi Effendi wrote.
If something looks to me like a contradiction, it isn't really. It's only my
lack of understanding. The Universal House of Justice is the source of all
good and freed from all error; whatever they decide is the truth and the
purpose of God Himself.
It is impossible that they would ever lead us astray.
I suggest beginning your thinking from that foundation.
Tim Nolan
-
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
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Re: Recent House letter
When the election call is sent out the assembly appoints a chief teller and
assistant teller. They are responsible for counting the ballots.
They report:total ballots cast, total ballots cast in person, total ballots
absentee, total number of invalid ballots, and the nine individuals elected
with the number of votes they received.
If there is a tit for the ninth seat, they report that.
Then whoever is in charge of the meeting asks the believers present to accept
the teller's report, and the individual with the most votes for the assembly
convenes the new assembly's first meeting where officers are elected.
Once the teller's report is accepted the teller's report is used to fill out
the election returns to national and it's all done.
Since there is no electioneering allowed, there are no individual candidates
to file petitions for re-counts and all that stuff. There are always two or
three tellers and they have to submit the report unanimously what room is there
for contention?
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry for being so ignorant...
what is the "Teller report"?
- Original Message -
From: "SKYGRAM"
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Recent House letter
Scott,
Yes, I suppose that would be the best time to complain. I go back a
bit more than that and I too have never seen it, though I wish I had.
But if you were not at the elections themselves, would contacting the
assembly itself be the proper course of action? Would contacting a
counselor at the same time also be an approach?
Is the why the number of votes won by individual assembly members is
given at that time to the members of the community?
Bill
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Re: Recent House letter
Sorry for being so ignorant...
what is the "Teller report"?
- Original Message -
From: "SKYGRAM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Recent House letter
Scott,
Yes, I suppose that would be the best time to complain. I go back a
bit more than that and I too have never seen it, though I wish I had.
But if you were not at the elections themselves, would contacting the
assembly itself be the proper course of action? Would contacting a
counselor at the same time also be an approach?
Is the why the number of votes won by individual assembly members is
given at that time to the members of the community?
Bill
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RES: Recent House letter
I have seen this once in a community I was a member of, during a unit
convention. There was some question as to the validity of a number of votes,
and the results of the election ended up swinging on these votes. I've been a
Bahá'í over 10 years, and I have only seen this happen once.
Peace,
Simeon
_
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Em nome de Scott Saylors
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 9 de abril de 2007 16:51
Para: Baha'i Studies
Assunto: Re: Recent House letter
The community is asked to accept the Teller's Report. If you have reason to
doubt the teller's report that's the time to bring it up. I've NEVER seen a
teller's report challenged in more than thirty years, mind you, but that would
be the time.
Regards,
Scott
SKYGRAM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yo to my fellow coreligionists!
It just occurred to me. How does one go about contesting a Baha'i
election?
Bill
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Re: Recent House letter
Scott,
Yes, I suppose that would be the best time to complain. I go back a
bit more than that and I too have never seen it, though I wish I had.
But if you were not at the elections themselves, would contacting the
assembly itself be the proper course of action? Would contacting a
counselor at the same time also be an approach?
Is the why the number of votes won by individual assembly members is
given at that time to the members of the community?
Bill
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Re: Recent House letter
The community is asked to accept the Teller's Report. If you have reason to
doubt the teller's report that's the time to bring it up. I've NEVER seen a
teller's report challenged in more than thirty years, mind you, but that would
be the time.
Regards,
Scott
SKYGRAM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yo to my fellow coreligionists!
It just occurred to me. How does one go about contesting a Baha'i election?
Bill
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Re: Recent House letter
Yo to my fellow coreligionists!
It just occurred to me. How does one go about contesting a Baha'i election?
Bill
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Re: Recent House letter
I certainly would NOT make this a rule of thumb.
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear David, and dear all,
What I understood is that the House of justice proposed a kind of "positive
discrimination" in the elections, am I right or wrong?
if that's the point, I first think that we bahais should have really no need
of this!
in all cases, shouldn't we vote with our heart and mind, no matter what
Shogi Effendi or the House say!...
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: "David Friedman"
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Recent House letter
> Dear Scott,
>
>> If a man and woman have a tie for the ninth seat, it goes to the woman
>> with no tie breaker.
>
> Where did Shoghi Effendi say that?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
> message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
> notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
> e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
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_
>
>
> Live Search delivers results the way you like it. Try live.com now!
> http://www.live.com
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear David, and dear all,
What I understood is that the House of justice proposed a kind of "positive
discrimination" in the elections, am I right or wrong?
if that's the point, I first think that we bahais should have really no need
of this!
in all cases, shouldn't we vote with our heart and mind, no matter what
Shogi Effendi or the House say!...
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: "David Friedman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Recent House letter
Dear Scott,
If a man and woman have a tie for the ninth seat, it goes to the woman
with no tie breaker.
Where did Shoghi Effendi say that?
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
Look it up in Ocean. Right now I had to take Ocean off my machine. I need more
storage badly. It's in the LSA guidelines for one place.
Regards,
Scott
David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Scott,
> If a man and woman have a tie for the ninth seat, it goes to the woman
>with no tie breaker.
Where did Shoghi Effendi say that?
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear Scott,
If a man and woman have a tie for the ninth seat, it goes to the woman
with no tie breaker.
Where did Shoghi Effendi say that?
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear David,
Since the 1950's at least we have followed Shoghi Effendi's guidance on this
which includes giving a tie to women or ethnic minorities for the ninth seat
on local assemblies.
If a man and woman have a tie for the ninth seat, it goes to the woman with
no tie breaker.
If a woman of ethnic descent and a 'REGLAR Amurican woman' are tied for the
ninth seat, it goes to the ethnic lady. This also counts for Representatives to
the National Convention and to offices within the assemblies, right on up to
the National Spiritual Assembly.
There is no change of direction or custom here, certainly no warping of
Shoghi Effendi's guidance.
Regards,
Scott
David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Susan,
>Look at the last sentence from the letter written on the Guardian's
>behalf and its emphasis on 'varied.' It seems to me this is very much
>in accord with the House's letter:
>
> > The
> > Assembly should be representative of the choicest and most varied
> > and
> > capable elements in every Baha'i community." (From a letter of the
> > Guardian
> > to an individual believer, August 11, 1933: The Spiritual
> > Character of
> > Baha'i Elections, p. 3
Hmm. I did see that word 'varied' there, yes. But I fail to see how we can
be sure that's what Shoghi Effendi meant when he used that word. He gave no
explanation. The other two words relate solely to abilities. My guess of
what Shoghi Effendi meant when he spoke of varied elements in the community
would relate to the skills different people can offer. Certainly not to
making sure we have a diverse mix of ethnic groups on the Assembly.
Furthermore, I should think the following letter from Shoghi Effendi shows
that we aren't to strive for variety but just on who is most capable:
"If we but turn our gaze to the high qualifications of the members of Baha'i
Assemblies, as enumerated in Abdu'l-Baha's Tablets, we are filled with
feelings of unworthiness and dismay, and would feel truly disheartened but
for the comforting thought that if we rise to play nobly our part every
deficiency in our lives will be more than compensated by the all-conquering
spirit of His grace and power. Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen
delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and
irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can
best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless
devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature
experience."
I can't see how Shoghi Effendi could have been more clear. He says "only"
those who best combine the qualities. I can't see how the new advice is not
disregarding this? And it does sound to me like it directly contradicts
what the House said before:
"It is a basic principle of elections for Baha'i Spiritual Assemblies that
each voter must vote for the nine people who, in his or her opinion, are
best suited to serve. He may have a low opinion of all those who are
eligible, but his duty is to vote for those nine from among them who, in his
estimation, best meet the standards for service on a Spiritual Assembly.
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an
individual believer, October 26, 1983)
If what I'm hearing is correct the House is now saying that we don't have to
vote for the best nine people. Again, Shoghi Effendi said:
"...I do not feel it to be in keeping with the spirit of the Cause to impose
any limitation upon the freedom of the believers to choose those of any
race, nationality or temperament, who best combine the essential
qualifications for membership of administrative institutions. They should
disregard personalities and concentrate their attention on the qualities and
requirements of office, without prejudice, passion or partiality. The
Assembly should be representative of the choicest and most varied and
capable elements in every Baha'i community." (From a letter of the Guardian
to an individual believer, August 11, 1933: The Spiritual Character of
Baha'i Elections, p. 3)
>From what I hear now, it would sound like the House isn't following it's
advice and is trying to impose limitations on freedom and tell us to regard
personalities (to achieve diversity). I realize the House isn't infallible
as far as interpretation, but I wouldn't expect them to err. I'll now have a
read of their message.
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
HI David To address what you mentioned on the Universal House of Justice possibly being "wrong" in its interpretation - the following makes clear the House's role when giving guidance: In a letter dated 9 March 1965, the Universal House of Justice stresses the "profound difference" that exists between the "interpretations of the Guardian and the elucidations of the House of Justice in exercise of its function to 'deliberate upon all problems which have caused difference, questions that are obscure, and matters that are not expressly recorded in the Book."' (Wellspring of Guidance, p. 52) Among these is the outlining of such steps as are necessary to establish the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh on this earth. The elucidations of the Universal House of Justice stem from its legislative function, while the interpretations of the Guardian represent the true intent inherent in the Sacred Texts. The major distinction between the two functions is that legislation with its resultant outcome of elucidation is susceptible of amendment by the House of Justice itself, whereas the Guardian's interpretation is a statement of truth which cannot be varied. Shoghi Effendi has given categorical assurances that neither the Guardian nor the Universal House of Justice "can, nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed domain of the other." Therefore, the friends can be sure that the Universal House of Justice will not engage in interpreting the Holy Writings. (The Universal House of Justice, 1984 Oct 25, Universal House of Justice - Power of Elucidation) That makes it clear to me that whatever guidance that was given to us in this letter was certainly not the result of any interpretation (of the Holy Writings). If anything, it is a summary and reminder on what we should focus during the Ridwan elections. As Don mentioned earlier, factors such as age, gender or diversity should only come into consideration if there is a pool of people one finds qualified (with all those properties and characteristics Shoghi Effendi enumerates). Basically, to decided between two people one feels is equally qualified, one should pick the one who would be able to contribute from a perspective that would be different/distinguishable from the majority. Shoghi Effendi himself gives similar guidance: 83. Minority Accorded Priority Without Question[1] [1 Bahá'ís Should Never Deviate from this Noble Standard] "Since the Guardian's instruction on this point is unequivocal where it is obvious that one of the persons involved represents a minority, that person should be accorded the priority without question. Where there is doubt further balloting will allow every voter present to participate. "With reference to the provision in article V of the National By - Laws governing the situation where two or more members have received the same highest number of votes, if one of those members represents a minority that individual should be given priority as if selected by lot." (From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, January 25, 1967)quoted in (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 24) Further to that, the definition of what a minority or majority may be is at the discretion of the NSA, as elucidated by the Universal House of Justice. Shoghi Effendi speaks about the importance (in fact the _extreme desirability_) of having minorities represented in communities, and particularly that they are qualified minorities: Representation of Minorities Bearing in mind the extreme desirability of having the minority elements participate and share responsibility in the conduct of Bahá'í activity, it should be the duty of every Bahá'í community so to arrange its affairs that in cases where individuals belonging to the diverse minority elements within it are already qualified and fulfill the necessary requirements, Bahá'í representative institutions, be they Assemblies, conventions, conferences, or committees, may have represented on them as many of these diverse elements, racial or otherwise, as possible. Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, pp. 35-36 There are several other quotations all of which support the guidance from the Universal House of Justice in its recent letter. If you have Ocean, look up the sections in Lights of Guidance and Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities on elections and formations of assembly, as well as diversity. I personally feel that if we have any doubts as to the advice or the sentiment in letters or publications from the World Center, we should probably explore the truth of it directly with those who have produced it - in this case, the Universal House of Justice. A short letter to them or even an Auxiliary Board Member/NSA can easily provide you with a complete answer explaining why and how that guidance was provided, and the supporting writings. Regards Prema On 4/9/07, David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have now read the le
Re: Recent House letter
I have now read the letter. Surprisingly I still can't see how it is in
accord with what Shoghi Effendi said. If I understand correctly, since this
relates to interpretation the House could be wrong. I would not expect
that. There are two things I don't get from the letter. Firstly, the House
says the necessary qualities mentioned by Shoghi Effendi are "among" them,
implying those qualities he mentioned aren't all of them. Shoghi Effendi
said:
the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of
unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of
recognized ability and mature experience.
Doesn't the word "only" imply that only what is mentioned here can be
considered? The House makes various appeals to Shoghi Effendi in the
relevant paragraph, but a quotation is noticeably absent when they say:
"From among the pool of those whom the elector believes to be qualified to
serve, selection should be made with due consideration given to such other
factors as age distribution, diversity, and gender." Where did they get
that from? Where did Shoghi Effendi talk about those factors?
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear Susan,
Look at the last sentence from the letter written on the Guardian's
behalf and its emphasis on 'varied.' It seems to me this is very much
in accord with the House's letter:
> The
> Assembly should be representative of the choicest and most varied
> and
> capable elements in every Baha'i community." (From a letter of the
> Guardian
> to an individual believer, August 11, 1933: The Spiritual
> Character of
> Baha'i Elections, p. 3
Hmm. I did see that word 'varied' there, yes. But I fail to see how we can
be sure that's what Shoghi Effendi meant when he used that word. He gave no
explanation. The other two words relate solely to abilities. My guess of
what Shoghi Effendi meant when he spoke of varied elements in the community
would relate to the skills different people can offer. Certainly not to
making sure we have a diverse mix of ethnic groups on the Assembly.
Furthermore, I should think the following letter from Shoghi Effendi shows
that we aren't to strive for variety but just on who is most capable:
"If we but turn our gaze to the high qualifications of the members of Baha'i
Assemblies, as enumerated in Abdu'l-Baha's Tablets, we are filled with
feelings of unworthiness and dismay, and would feel truly disheartened but
for the comforting thought that if we rise to play nobly our part every
deficiency in our lives will be more than compensated by the all-conquering
spirit of His grace and power. Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen
delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and
irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can
best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless
devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature
experience."
I can't see how Shoghi Effendi could have been more clear. He says "only"
those who best combine the qualities. I can't see how the new advice is not
disregarding this? And it does sound to me like it directly contradicts
what the House said before:
"It is a basic principle of elections for Baha'i Spiritual Assemblies that
each voter must vote for the nine people who, in his or her opinion, are
best suited to serve. He may have a low opinion of all those who are
eligible, but his duty is to vote for those nine from among them who, in his
estimation, best meet the standards for service on a Spiritual Assembly.
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an
individual believer, October 26, 1983)
If what I'm hearing is correct the House is now saying that we don't have to
vote for the best nine people. Again, Shoghi Effendi said:
"...I do not feel it to be in keeping with the spirit of the Cause to impose
any limitation upon the freedom of the believers to choose those of any
race, nationality or temperament, who best combine the essential
qualifications for membership of administrative institutions. They should
disregard personalities and concentrate their attention on the qualities and
requirements of office, without prejudice, passion or partiality. The
Assembly should be representative of the choicest and most varied and
capable elements in every Baha'i community." (From a letter of the Guardian
to an individual believer, August 11, 1933: The Spiritual Character of
Baha'i Elections, p. 3)
From what I hear now, it would sound like the House isn't following it's
advice and is trying to impose limitations on freedom and tell us to regard
personalities (to achieve diversity). I realize the House isn't infallible
as far as interpretation, but I wouldn't expect them to err. I'll now have a
read of their message.
Regards,
David
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Re: Recent House letter
Dear David,
Look at the last sentence from the letter written on the Guardian's
behalf and its emphasis on 'varied.' It seems to me this is very much
in accord with the House's letter:
> The
> Assembly should be representative of the choicest and most varied
> and
> capable elements in every Baha'i community." (From a letter of the
> Guardian
> to an individual believer, August 11, 1933: The Spiritual
> Character of
> Baha'i Elections, p. 3
warmest, Susan
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Re: Recent House letter
on 4/8/07 7:13 AM, David Friedman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The last letter refutes what I was told the recent House letter says, so I
> imagine there has been some misunderstanding.
I guess.
**Never** assume that someone else's Reader's Digest version is an accurate
synopsis. Read the material for yourself.
http://www.usbnc.org/comm/uhj/2007.asp
In this case, it is obvious that the House of Justice is laying out some
secondary considerations for making a decision when an elector finds there
are more than 9 individuals who meet the basic qualifications laid out by
Shoghi Effendi.
In a large community, which is where most Baha'is in the world live, it is
likely there are several people who are seen as more qualified than the
others. But on the next tier, there may well be a dozen or more. When
deciding among these, such factors as age, gender and diversity should be
taken into consideration.
Don C
--
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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Recent House letter
At the Feast tonight we were told about a recent House letter giving
guidance about voting in Baha'i elections. It is a March 25 letter that
others here must have seen. What we were told about it makes me think it
has been totally misunderstood because the House of Justice advice about
voting sounded antithetical to the advice of Shoghi Effendi! I heard a bit
read from it and that part appeared to confirm the report. The advice those
present at the Feast were given was that if there are a number of people who
have all the necessary qualifications for membership of an Assembly one
should choose among these people in a manner to achieve diversity. If
that's what was meant then that's another way of saying one shouldn't try to
vote for the best nine! Here are two letters which I should think make it
clear that we are to vote for the best nine people:
"...I do not feel it to be in keeping with the spirit of the Cause to impose
any limitation upon the freedom of the believers to choose those of any
race, nationality or temperament, who best combine the essential
qualifications for membership of administrative institutions. They should
disregard personalities and concentrate their attention on the qualities and
requirements of office, without prejudice, passion or partiality. The
Assembly should be representative of the choicest and most varied and
capable elements in every Baha'i community." (From a letter of the Guardian
to an individual believer, August 11, 1933: The Spiritual Character of
Baha'i Elections, p. 3)
"It is a basic principle of elections for Baha'i Spiritual Assemblies that
each voter must vote for the nine people who, in his or her opinion, are
best suited to serve. He may have a low opinion of all those who are
eligible, but his duty is to vote for those nine from among them who, in his
estimation, best meet the standards for service on a Spiritual Assembly.
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an
individual believer, October 26, 1983)
The last letter refutes what I was told the recent House letter says, so I
imagine there has been some misunderstanding.
Regards,
David
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