Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
> "Your suggestion that an "imprimatur" system such as used by the
Roman
> Catholic Church would be preferable to the present system of review
> was considered by the House of Justice...
>
> --
> I may have been not clear. I am afraid of a system of Imprimatur!
Dear Loic,
Oh, i understand that. It was Juan Cole that suggested this system to
the House of Justice and they shot it down.
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What I meant is that I sometimes feel worried when I see so many
warnings at the beginning or at the end of some Baha'i writings.
examples given: "this text has been translated by the X committee,
reviewed by the Y committee, approved by Z, and might be later
corrected by ZZ..."
Dear Loic,
I've never seen anything like this in any English publications. Do
they appear in European languages? The closest thing I know to this
are the early Baha'i publications which stated they had been reviewed
by a committee. But I think they stopped doing that as soon as the
Publishing Trust was formed. That was maybe back in the 30's or 40's.
These kind of warnings still appear in current french translations,
mostly edited by the canadian Baha'i committees.
or, on the other hand, "this text is only a
personal translation and must not be considered as an official
bahai publication and must be considered as a personal point of
view..."
I think that may represent the translator himself going overboard.
Most of us are content to simply identify it as a provisional
translation without going into any long explanation.
-
I do agree with you!
-
These kinds of warnings make me think that there is a real danger
for Bahai Faith to turn into dogmatism (like the Vatican giving
the Imprimatur for advised books, the Nihil obstat for books with
nothing against the official faith, but also writing at the Index
books such as the DaVinci Code, considered as going against the
official believes and so forgiven to the believers).
The House of Justice doesn't want to see that as well, which is why in
their letter of 1992 addressed to Juan Cole they refused to establish
two sets of Baha'i literature, one which passed review and the other
which didn't.
"Your suggestion that an "imprimatur" system such as used by the Roman
Catholic Church would be preferable to the present system of review
was considered by the House of Justice...
--
I may have been not clear. I am afraid of a system of Imprimatur!
I believe the Holy writings are enough by themselves as the only True.
(even in many different translations, they are The Revelations!)
as soon as exist "official" translations or "official" publications,
it is like a confiscation of the True by some human interpretations...
--
... it would obscure the important fact that the process of
review in the Bahá'í Faith is temporary, being limited to this stage
of its development when books published by Bahá'ís could seriously
mislead the public if they too gravely distort its message."
(The Universal House of Justice, 1992 Dec 10, Issues Related
to Study Compilation)
Thank you very much for these informations,
keeping me confident in our spirit of freedom!
Loïc
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
That's why I trust in Baha'i message!!!
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I have heard about these evangelical religions, they look to be
more
efficient than us in terms of number of conversions! ;-)
Dear Loic,
Yes, there seems to be resurgence of conservatism and literalism in
religion all over the world. Our retention, bad as it is, is a bit
better however. In most high-growth religions only one in four
converts is retained after the first year. In the Baha'i Faith is
about 50%.
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Dear Susan
I've been following this discussion with increasing interest.
You mentioned that:
"That is one of the reasons Baha'u'llah often gave people titles equivalent
to the numerical value of their names."
Do you know of any examples, or could cite me a source where I could read
more about this. Thanks!
Regards
Prema
On 1/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Yes the example I gave was regarding the name of the book "Bayan".
>
> Dear Loic,
>
> I'm not sure translating the title of the book would help things much.
> Would entitling a religious scripture *The Exposition* not sound
> strange as well?
>
> > I don't know in english, but in french we have so many baha'i
> > words
> > absolutly impossible to understand without an annex to explain
> > their sense
> > ("le covenant", les "petites branches" et "grandes branches"...
> > even the
> > "Maison Universelle de Justice" looks like a U.N. Agency in the
> > french
> > understanding!)
>
> Yes, such things need to be footnoted. But since they are translations
> of the original text I don't know what else we can do about them.
>
> > I just think that this kind of obscurancy doesn't help french
> > people to be
> > interested in Baha'i faith and ideas!
>
> You may have to take that up with Baha'u'llah. But there is a reason
> He did this. Tablets were sent out by foot and were likely to be
> intercepted. It would have endangered the life of the carrier and
> others to have been too clear about the identity of the people
> referred to. That is one of the reasons Baha'u'llah often gave people
> titles equivalent to the numerical value of their names.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
> I have heard about these evangelical religions, they look to be
> more
> efficient than us in terms of number of conversions! ;-)
Dear Loic,
Yes, there seems to be resurgence of conservatism and literalism in
religion all over the world. Our retention, bad as it is, is a bit
better however. In most high-growth religions only one in four
converts is retained after the first year. In the Baha'i Faith is
about 50%.
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
> Yes the example I gave was regarding the name of the book "Bayan".
Dear Loic,
I'm not sure translating the title of the book would help things much.
Would entitling a religious scripture *The Exposition* not sound
strange as well?
> I don't know in english, but in french we have so many baha'i
> words
> absolutly impossible to understand without an annex to explain
> their sense
> ("le covenant", les "petites branches" et "grandes branches"...
> even the
> "Maison Universelle de Justice" looks like a U.N. Agency in the
> french
> understanding!)
Yes, such things need to be footnoted. But since they are translations
of the original text I don't know what else we can do about them.
> I just think that this kind of obscurancy doesn't help french
> people to be
> interested in Baha'i faith and ideas!
You may have to take that up with Baha'u'llah. But there is a reason
He did this. Tablets were sent out by foot and were likely to be
intercepted. It would have endangered the life of the carrier and
others to have been too clear about the identity of the people
referred to. That is one of the reasons Baha'u'llah often gave people
titles equivalent to the numerical value of their names.
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Yes the example I gave was regarding the name of the book "Bayan".
I don't know in english, but in french we have so many baha'i words
absolutly impossible to understand without an annex to explain their sense
("le covenant", les "petites branches" et "grandes branches"... even the
"Maison Universelle de Justice" looks like a U.N. Agency in the french
understanding!)
I just think that this kind of obscurancy doesn't help french people to be
interested in Baha'i faith and ideas!
Cheers,
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
A simple word of the Faith : the "Bayan", which
could be
easily translated in french by "l'Annonce" or "l'Explication", but
people
are so afraid to translate that they keep the "Bayan" in their
writings.
Dear Loic,
When it appears in the Writings we do translate it, normally
as 'utterance' as in 'wisdom and utterance' [hikmat va bayan.] But I
think you are talking about the name of the book "Bayan." It is kept
in the original because it is seen as a proper name like Qur'an which
literally means 'recitation' or 'reading.'
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I agree completely. The reference is to individuals who sought their own
objectives and used the 'mask' of academic freedom to hide their agenda. It is
a specific not a general reference.
Regards,
Scott
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Scott,
It would be a mistake to interpret the House's April 7 letter as an
attack on the notion of academic freedom. What they are criticizing is
the attempt to misuse the term in a Baha'i religious context. Academic
freedom is the freedom of teachers, students, and academic
institutions to pursue knowledge wherever it may lead, without undue
or unreasonable interference on the part of the institutions which
employ them. It has nothing to do with the freedom to believe whatever
you want in a religious community. Religious communities, after all,
are usually defined by their beliefs. Those who don't hold those
beliefs don't really belong in the community.
When John Locke wrote his famous treatise on Religious Tolerance he
was not only defending the write of citizens within a state to follow
whatever religion they wish, but he was at the same time defending the
right of churches to define their own membership. In other words, for
Locke religious tolerance and the right of churches to excommunicate
people went hand in hand.
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Dear Scott,
It would be a mistake to interpret the House's April 7 letter as an
attack on the notion of academic freedom. What they are criticizing is
the attempt to misuse the term in a Baha'i religious context. Academic
freedom is the freedom of teachers, students, and academic
institutions to pursue knowledge wherever it may lead, without undue
or unreasonable interference on the part of the institutions which
employ them. It has nothing to do with the freedom to believe whatever
you want in a religious community. Religious communities, after all,
are usually defined by their beliefs. Those who don't hold those
beliefs don't really belong in the community.
When John Locke wrote his famous treatise on Religious Tolerance he
was not only defending the write of citizens within a state to follow
whatever religion they wish, but he was at the same time defending the
right of churches to define their own membership. In other words, for
Locke religious tolerance and the right of churches to excommunicate
people went hand in hand.
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Ben,
It seems I have made some exagerations by writing "re-reviewed by dozens of
people, councils, assemblies..."
SORRY for this!
We must take care about freedom of believes, thoughts and speeches, for
everyone!
;-)
Loïc
I think the April 07, 1999 letter from the House (Issue Related to the Study
of the Baha`i Faith) bears some consideration.
"Similarly, Shoghi Effendi's explanation of Bahá'u'lláh's vision of the
future Bahá'í World Commonwealth that will unite spiritual and civil authority
is dismissed in favour of the assertion that the modern political concept of
"separation of church and state" is somehow one that Bahá'u'lláh intended as a
basic principle of the World Order He has founded. Particularly subtle is an
attempt to suggest that the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar should evolve into a seat of
quasi-doctrinal authority, parallel to and essentially independent of the Local
House of Justice, which would permit various interests to insinuate themselves
into the direction of the life processes of the Cause.
6
Typically, when misrepresentations of the kind described are challenged, the
reaction of those behind the campaign has been to claim that their civil rights
are being threatened, an assertion that is of course meaningless in the light
of the purely voluntary nature of Bahá'í membership. Much emphasis is placed by
them also on academic freedom, their view of which proves, on examination, to
be merely freedom on their part to pervert scholarly discourse to the promotion
of their own ideological agenda, while seeking to exclude from discussion
features of the Bahá'í Faith that are central to the Writings of its Founders."
(The Universal House of Justice, 1999 Apr 07, Issues Related to the Study of
the Baha'i Faith, p. 2)
I heartily recommend this excerpt be taken in light of thoe whole letter
found in Ocean by simply searching for "Academic Freedom"
Regards,
Scott
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
A simple word of the Faith : the "Bayan", which
> could be
> easily translated in french by "l'Annonce" or "l'Explication", but
> people
> are so afraid to translate that they keep the "Bayan" in their
> writings.
Dear Loic,
When it appears in the Writings we do translate it, normally
as 'utterance' as in 'wisdom and utterance' [hikmat va bayan.] But I
think you are talking about the name of the book "Bayan." It is kept
in the original because it is seen as a proper name like Qur'an which
literally means 'recitation' or 'reading.'
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
> What I meant is that I sometimes feel worried when I see so many
> warnings at the beginning or at the end of some Baha'i writings.
> examples given: "this text has been translated by the X committee,
> reviewed by the Y committee, approved by Z, and might be later
> corrected by ZZ..."
Dear Loic,
I've never seen anything like this in any English publications. Do
they appear in European languages? The closest thing I know to this
are the early Baha'i publications which stated they had been reviewed
by a committee. But I think they stopped doing that as soon as the
Publishing Trust was formed. That was maybe back in the 30's or 40's.
or, on the other hand, "this text is only a
> personal translation and must not be considered as an official
> bahai publication and must be considered as a personal point of
> view..."
I think that may represent the translator himself going overboard.
Most of us are content to simply identify it as a provisional
translation without going into any long explanation.
> These kinds of warnings make me think that there is a real danger
> for Bahai Faith to turn into dogmatism (like the Vatican giving
> the Imprimatur for advised books, the Nihil obstat for books with
> nothing against the official faith, but also writing at the Index
> books such as the DaVinci Code, considered as going against the
> official believes and so forgiven to the believers).
The House of Justice doesn't want to see that as well, which is why in
their letter of 1992 addressed to Juan Cole they refused to establish
two sets of Baha'i literature, one which passed review and the other
which didn't.
"Your suggestion that an "imprimatur" system such as used by the Roman
Catholic Church would be preferable to the present system of review
was considered by the House of Justice, and it has asked us to explain
to you the problems that this would present.
First of all, it would convey to the reader the false impression that
the attitude of the Faith was similar to that of the Roman Catholic
Church, summoning up visions of an "index" of prohibited reading, and
all the other associations which you can undoubtedly imagine for
yourself.
Secondly, it would give force to the erroneous concept that there are
two kinds of Bahá'í literature: books which present the "official"
view and those which are the free personal opinions of individual
Bahá'ís, thus obscuring the essential Bahá'í differentiation between
the Writings of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, those of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, the
letters of the Guardian and the decisions of the Universal House of
Justice, which are authoritative, on the one hand, and all other
writings by Bahá'ís on the other, which have no authority at all apart
from their own internal reasonableness. That a book has passed review
in no way guarantees its correctness; it is merely an assurance by the
National Spiritual Assembly concerned that, in its view, the book does
not seriously distort the Faith or its Teachings.
Thirdly, it would obscure the important fact that the process of
review in the Bahá'í Faith is temporary, being limited to this stage
of its development when books published by Bahá'ís could seriously
mislead the public if they too gravely distort its message."
(The Universal House of Justice, 1992 Dec 10, Issues Related
to Study Compilation)
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Dear Ben,
It seems I have made some exagerations by writing "re-reviewed by dozens of
people, councils, assemblies..."
SORRY for this!
What I meant is that I sometimes feel worried when I see so many warnings at
the beginning or at the end of some Baha'i writings.
examples given: "this text has been translated by the X committee, reviewed by
the Y committee, approved by Z, and might be later corrected by ZZ..." or, on
the other hand, "this text is only a personal translation and must not be
considered as an official bahai publication and must be considered as a
personal point of view..."
These kinds of warnings make me think that there is a real danger for Bahai
Faith to turn into dogmatism (like the Vatican giving the Imprimatur for
advised books, the Nihil obstat for books with nothing against the official
faith, but also writing at the Index books such as the DaVinci Code, considered
as going against the official believes and so forgiven to the believers).
We must take care about freedom of believes, thoughts and speeches, for
everyone!
;-)
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Benjamin La Framboise
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Dear Loïc,
It doesn't appear to me that your simple example >>> A simple word of the
Faith : the "Bayan", which could be easily translated in french by "l'Annonce"
or "l'Explication", but people are so afraid to translate that they keep the
"Bayan" in their writings.<<< is, at all, an example of >>>baha'i publications
that have been reviewed, corrected, validated, re-reviewed... by dozens of
people, councils, assemblies... and this very hierarchic system of validation
sometimes gives some texts with so many cares that the simple sense of the
original text becomes impossible to understand!<<<.
Do you have any other examples in which this has happened (not the avoidance
of translation, but the reviewing, correcting, validating, re-reviewing by
dozens of people, councils, assemblies, to the point that the sense of the
original text became impossible to understand)?
Just curious,
Ben
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Dear Loïc,
It doesn't appear to me that your simple example >>>A simple word of the
Faith : the "Bayan", which could be easily translated in french by
"l'Annonce" or "l'Explication", but people are so afraid to translate that
they keep the "Bayan" in their writings.<<< is, at all, an example of >>>baha'i
publications that have been reviewed, corrected, validated, re-reviewed...
by dozens of people, councils, assemblies... and this very hierarchic system
of validation sometimes gives some texts with so many cares that the
simple sense
of the original text becomes impossible to understand!<<<.
Do you have any other examples in which this has happened (not the avoidance
of translation, but the reviewing, correcting, validating, re-reviewing by
dozens of people, councils, assemblies, to the point that the sense of the
original text became impossible to understand)?
Just curious,
Ben
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
> Anyway, I see some risks of censorship when I read some baha'i
> publications
> that have been reviewed, corrected, validated, re-reviewed...
Dear Loic,
What 're-reviewed' are you talking about?
warmest, Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I agree that this freedom should be used in one mind : to grow up in
knowledge, wisdom, and peacefull unification of humanity.
Used in this purpose, it is of course tempered with respect of others'
believes, and diplomacy!
Anyway, I see some risks of censorship when I read some baha'i publications
that have been reviewed, corrected, validated, re-reviewed... by dozens of
people, councils, assemblies... and this very hierarchic system of
validation sometimes gives some texts with so many cares that the simple
sense of the original text becomes impossible to understand!
I personaly believe that the "unification of humanity" means humanity living
in peace, freedom and justice for all, help and shares of all ressources,
NOT "unification of a silent humanity under the official simple thought"!
I think a very simple example appears in the translations of texts we have
here in France. A simple word of the Faith : the "Bayan", which could be
easily translated in french by "l'Annonce" or "l'Explication", but people
are so afraid to translate that they keep the "Bayan" in their writings.
To communicate, 2 things must work together : the clear langage to give the
information, and the clear understanding to receive the information.
As long as we use some ununderstandable words and expressions, we take so
many care of the right langage that we forget to take care of the
understanding of the other people, and our texts are only beautiful poesy,
but not knowledge communication...
I cannot imagine that all humanity should first learn persian or arabic, to
be able to understand the Writings! ;-)
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Alcorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I agree One God is the source, He also provides us with progressive
revelation. Freedom needs to be tempered with wisdom. Perhaps you would
like to explain what you mean by censorship appearing in our faith?
- Original Message -
From: "Loïc ROYER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I don't see what you mean.
The source of all religions is one and unique God, same for all, isn't it!
- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Alcorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What really makes the difference is the source.
- Original Message -
From: "Loïc ROYER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What makes the difference of the Baha'i faith is the individual freedom,
to
search, discover, discuss, write, think, believe...
Of course this freedom is already given by other religions,
but I understand the baha'is put this freedom over its limits,
by accepting that error can be better than true,
if the true brings reasons to fight as an error can be peacefull for a
moment.
Being baha'i this is what I believe in.
But I must admit I am sometimes afraid when I see censorship appearing in
our so beautiful Faith...
Lolo
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
> They were basically rejected posts intended for soc.religion.bahai
> which I felt you were mischaracterizing and then rejecting.
That doesn't give you the right to bring it here.
As I said, you are no longer welcome on this forum.
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
They were basically rejected posts intended for soc.religion.bahai
which I felt you were mischaracterizing and then rejecting.
-G
On 1/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear friends,
Gilberto has been forwarding private correspondence to this list
without permission. Please do not respond and encourage this kind of
behavior.
Gilberto, you are no longer welcome here.
Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Dear friends,
Gilberto has been forwarding private correspondence to this list
without permission. Please do not respond and encourage this kind of
behavior.
Gilberto, you are no longer welcome here.
Susan
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I agree One God is the source, He also provides us with progressive
revelation. Freedom needs to be tempered with wisdom. Perhaps you would like
to explain what you mean by censorship appearing in our faith?
- Original Message -
From: "Loïc ROYER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I don't see what you mean.
The source of all religions is one and unique God, same for all, isn't it!
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Alcorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What really makes the difference is the source.
- Original Message -
From: "Loïc ROYER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What makes the difference of the Baha'i faith is the individual freedom,
to
search, discover, discuss, write, think, believe...
Of course this freedom is already given by other religions,
but I understand the baha'is put this freedom over its limits,
by accepting that error can be better than true,
if the true brings reasons to fight as an error can be peacefull for a
moment.
Being baha'i this is what I believe in.
But I must admit I am sometimes afraid when I see censorship appearing in
our so beautiful Faith...
Lolo
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Baha
Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
I don't see what you mean.
The source of all religions is one and unique God, same for all, isn't it!
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Alcorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What really makes the difference is the source.
- Original Message -
From: "Loïc ROYER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What makes the difference of the Baha'i faith is the individual freedom,
to
search, discover, discuss, write, think, believe...
Of course this freedom is already given by other religions,
but I understand the baha'is put this freedom over its limits,
by accepting that error can be better than true,
if the true brings reasons to fight as an error can be peacefull for a
moment.
Being baha'i this is what I believe in.
But I must admit I am sometimes afraid when I see censorship appearing in
our so beautiful Faith...
Lolo
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notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What really makes the difference is the source.
- Original Message -
From: "Loïc ROYER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What makes the difference of the Baha'i faith is the individual freedom, to
search, discover, discuss, write, think, believe...
Of course this freedom is already given by other religions,
but I understand the baha'is put this freedom over its limits,
by accepting that error can be better than true,
if the true brings reasons to fight as an error can be peacefull for a
moment.
Being baha'i this is what I believe in.
But I must admit I am sometimes afraid when I see censorship appearing in
our so beautiful Faith...
Lolo
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
What makes the difference of the Baha'i faith is the individual freedom, to
search, discover, discuss, write, think, believe...
Of course this freedom is already given by other religions,
but I understand the baha'is put this freedom over its limits,
by accepting that error can be better than true,
if the true brings reasons to fight as an error can be peacefull for a
moment.
Being baha'i this is what I believe in.
But I must admit I am sometimes afraid when I see censorship appearing in
our so beautiful Faith...
Lolo
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
When were internet writings and websites *subject* to review and when
did it change?
-G
On 1/6/07, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 1/6/07, Susan Maneck wrote:
> Were not going to cover the same ground again and again. You have been
> told this is not the Baha'i teachings and yet you keep insisting we
> believe something we don't. I'm rejecting this as inflamatory.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I'm not trying to tell you what
you believe. I'm just trying to get certain issues clarified and I
would like to see them supported with textual evidence.
"> > Shoghi Effendi, while affirming "that at the very root of the Cause
> > lies the principle of the undoubted right of the individual to
> > self-expression," found it necessary to insist that Baha'is
temporarily
> > submit their work to censors before publication as a provisional
> > measure "designed to guard and protect the Cause in its present
state
> > of infancy and growth until the day when this tender and precious
plant
> > shall have sufficiently grown to be able to withstand the unwisdom
of
> > its friends and the attacks of its enemies.""
I think this is a restriction that is already being phased out. For instance
internet writings and websites are already exempted from review, we'll see
other changes come about, I am sure.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:On 1/6/07, Susan Maneck wrote:
> Were not going to cover the same ground again and again. You have been
> told this is not the Baha'i teachings and yet you keep insisting we
> believe something we don't. I'm rejecting this as inflamatory.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I'm not trying to tell you what
you believe. I'm just trying to get certain issues clarified and I
would like to see them supported with textual evidence.
"> > Shoghi Effendi, while affirming "that at the very root of the Cause
> > lies the principle of the undoubted right of the individual to
> > self-expression," found it necessary to insist that Baha'is
temporarily
> > submit their work to censors before publication as a provisional
> > measure "designed to guard and protect the Cause in its present
state
> > of infancy and growth until the day when this tender and precious
plant
> > shall have sufficiently grown to be able to withstand the unwisdom
of
> > its friends and the attacks of its enemies.""
I think this is a restriction that is already being phased out. For instance
internet writings and websites are already exempted from review, we'll see
other changes come about, I am sure.
Regards,
Scott
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limits of hikmat, righteous warfare, jihad, etc.
On 1/6/07, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Were not going to cover the same ground again and again. You have been told this is not the Baha'i teachings and yet you keep insisting we believe something we don't. I'm rejecting this as inflamatory. I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I'm not trying to tell you what you believe. I'm just trying to get certain issues clarified and I would like to see them supported with textual evidence. On 5 Jan 2007 14:36:48 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > wow, there is something weird with the group... i didn't get this > response in my in-box and only saw it when i checked the group through > a browser. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I'm not trying to distort the teachings but I've never read anything > > > which puts limits on how hikmat can be used. > > Dear Gilberto, > > I've never seen a statement in puts limits on how taqiyyih or > > dissimulation can be used in Islam either, but given the fact that in > > 1400 years of Islamic history no one has used it that way, I think it > > is pretty save to assume that they won't. > Pretty much every time I've seen taqiyyah discussed it was clear that > it has limits. Even calling it a form of dissimulation is putting a > definite limit on it. But the Bahai concept of hikmat is a lot more > general and loosely definied. For example, pre-publication review is a > form of hikmat but it defenitely isn't a form a dissimulation. > [Conditionally] Allowing bigamy would be another example of hikmat which isn't > necessarily dissimulation. > > But there are plenty of passages > > that absolutely rule out the use of violence in defense of our > > religion. Do you really want me to post them all? > > I mean, there > > > are passages in the writings which celebrate free expression and > > > independent thought and yet by way of "hikmat" there is a > > > pre-publication censorship policy. > > And the exception is in writing as well. Find the exception to the > > prohibition against jihad in the Writings. > according to your paper: > Shoghi Effendi, while affirming "that at the very root of the Cause > lies the principle of the undoubted right of the individual to > self-expression," found it necessary to insist that Baha'is temporarily > submit their work to censors before publication as a provisional > measure "designed to guard and protect the Cause in its present state > of infancy and growth until the day when this tender and precious plant > shall have sufficiently grown to be able to withstand the unwisdom of > its friends and the attacks of its enemies." > > [end quote] > > So this gives an example of how even if a principle is "at the very > root of the Cause" it might be suspended in order to "guard and protect > the Cause" from the "attacks of its enemies". This suggests that to > "guard and protect the Cause" is of an incredibly high value. And makes > it plausible that some other principle might be suspended for the same > reason. In fact, I looked back at your paper again and it seemed like hikmat is explicitly set up as general: "Baha'u'llah regarded the application of any of his laws as contained in the Kitab-i-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of wisdom" > > I think there is a similar tension > > > in terms of Bahais not denying their faith and what hikmat will allow. > > > > Then once again, you didn't read my article very carefully. What I have > > documented is a situation where what Baha'is could do in the name of > > 'hikmat' became increasingly more narrow over time. > > Even if that were true, I'm not sure how it affects the point. > > > > > > > I think I tried to ask this earlier but got an unclear answer. > > > > > > Suppose there was a Bahai state and it was attacked by one of its > > > neighbors. Wouldn't that Bahai state be justified in defending itself > > > from that attack? (And could you refer to a specific text or texts in > > > the writings on this point?) > > > > If my answer was less than clear it is because as I tried to tell you > > earlier there will never be a 'single' Baha'i state with those around > > it not being Baha'i. > > Is that your individual opinion or is that clearly stated in the > writings? Something else? > > For clarity maybe I should ask you what YOU mean by Bahai state? Can we > talk about a Bahai-majority state with mostly-Bahai elected officials > where Bahai perspectives are reflected in the government? Perhaps local > governments turned over some oftheir functions to LSAs or some other > Bahai organization/entity? > > But if this theoretical Baha'i state which cannot > > exist as you formulate it were attacked, whether or not it could defend > > itself might depend on a couple of things. Was it attacked because it > > was Baha'i? If so, then my understanding is that it could not defend > > itself. If it were attacked for some other reason, perhaps it could, > > but probably only in conjunction with oth
