[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Mathias, I agree Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: 'baroque-lute mailing-list' baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 10:42 Dear Martyn, Wolfgang Wolff the younger is indeed attested to have died in the late 16th century (1591, to be precise), but that implies that he probably did not rebuild this lute himself, as double headed lutes became fashionable only later. One may wonder whether or not the soundboard with its unique barring (three fan bars on the treble side, slanted J-bar joined by one fan bar on the bass side) was replaced. It also implies that small lutes of this size were lutes of choice when it came to rebuilding. Not the only possible choice, though, admittedly. According to Mary Burwell's teacher, the French first accepted the double headed lute, but later rejected it. I wonder how many years passed between first and later. Pierre Gaultier (1638) clearly requires a lute whose 9th course can be stopped on the fret board (although it sounds well to my ears on the 12c lute as well), but I haven't found other French music of the time, where that is so. It can be played comfortably on a 12c lute, and so it was e.g. by Jean Campbell (Panmure 8). The vocal lines, or singing quality, is much more prominent when played on this small lute with its 1st course in g', e.g. in the written out doubles with their almost continuous lines, or as well any piece that uses the upper register. Mathias -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson Gesendet: Freitag, 16. Maerz 2012 13:39 An: baroque-lute mailing-list; Mathias Roesel Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Mathias, Interesting. As said, I don't think any reasonably sized lute is 'wrong': it's more a matter of what might have been generally expected at the particular time. My comments relate principally to French lute music of the mid/late 17th century (as on Anthony Bailes's CD) so other schools and periods such as those you mention (Mace and early 17th century French lutenists) may well have used the size of lute you prefer for this repertoire; such as the double headed Wolf lute (late 16th century? original) with stopped strings at 63cm. One other problem with using the 1722 Wenger instrument for earlier French repertoire is that the barring in the lower part of the belly which does not fit the models of that found on early 16th century lutes so esteemed by the 17th century French (see Lute News). Martyn --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Mathias Roesel [3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: Mathias Roesel [4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: baroque-lute mailing-list [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:10 Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier editions of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred instruments at the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally had a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which outlines the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred in mid/late 17th century France). I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Fuessen (63 cm) for not only Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut, Bouvier, Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do like it very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors habits of the 1640ies in French-influenced England. Mathias But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the music on such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being challenging for
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your stringing? Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses! % I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare. % You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy? regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com A : Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com; [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08 Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony and all, I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A great, old recording. Your statement that (although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well) is in complete agreement with my recent experimentation. As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my French lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei. Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually, Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th course still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only metal I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying the 11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut. They do not sound tubby at all. Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will, using this stringing configuration. In my opinion, at least when discussing French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying. Another factor I
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Hi Martyn, I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here. The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things being equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so on) and reduce this effect. The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain. This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one of the same thickness. One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions. There's only so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound like rubber bands being pinged. This can be overcome by increasing the density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string can be tuned at a higher tension. Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings, where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors. In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a 10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it. Thoughts? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Edward Martin [3]e...@gamutstrings.com Cc: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your stringing? Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses! % I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which is a
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Bill, Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute will be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of 76 and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than a larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be much the same. Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as you point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument. rgds Martyn --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22 Hi Martyn, I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here. The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things being equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so on) and reduce this effect. The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain. This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one of the same thickness. One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions. There's only so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound like rubber bands being pinged. This can be overcome by increasing the density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string can be tuned at a higher tension. Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings, where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors. In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a 10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it. Thoughts? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Edward Martin [3]e...@gamutstrings.com Cc: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Hi again Martyn, Yes indeed - The smaller lute will need thinner strings than the larger one but if you go by the highest string almost breaking, that will lead to a lower tension as the thickness of the chanterelle doesn't seem to be related to the pitch at which it breaks. What I'm getting around to asking is, how do the tensions of the basses in a small lute compare to the equivalents in a large lute? If the small lute has half the string length of the large, and is tuned an octave higher, the same tension will require the same string thickness. So if you use thinner basses the tension would need to be somewhat less. Most string calculators I've come across ask the user for the tension they want to use, but don't give much in the way of guidance to what a reasonable tension should be. Do you know if this has been investigated and written up anywhere? All the advice I can find is for medium-sized lutes and suggests tensions around 3kg per string. That would presumably be less for a much smaller lute. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 9:33 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Bill, Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute will be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of 76 and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than a larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be much the same. Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as you point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument. rgds Martyn --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22 Hi Martyn, I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here. The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things being equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so on) and reduce this effect. The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain. This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one of the same thickness. One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions. There's only so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound like rubber bands being pinged. This can be overcome by increasing the density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string can be tuned at a higher tension. Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings, where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors. In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a 10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it. Thoughts? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.comSubject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: Edward Martin [3]e...@gamutstrings.comCc: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.eduDate: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Stringing in relation to lute size [WasRe: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Bill,
But on the smaller instrument you'll employ lower tensions - not the
same tension as on a larger.
To my knowledge, Dowland in the 'Varietie' gives the clearest advice
about this ('Of setting the right sizes of Strings upon the Lute').
.. Wherefore first have consideration to the greatnesse or
smallnesse of the Instrument, and thereby proportionably size your
strings, appointing the bigger Lute the greater strings, and for the
lesser Lute the smaller strings
Mace says the same (page 65 speaking of the Stringing of the Lute) he
writes 'And as to the Size, if it be a Large Lute, it must have the
Rounder Strings; and a Small Lute, the Smaller'
This is also, of course, sensible advice since, if we want the same
'feel' under the fingers (see earlier communications on this), we'll
need to have lower tensions on smaller lutes and vice versa.
Regarding 'feeI', I recall somebody amusingly (see archives) mentioning
the feel of playing 'with iron bars' if we tried to pluck a small
descant lute strung with, say, the strings used on a large bass lute
and brought being both up to their relative pitches
rgds
M
--- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 10:03
Hi again Martyn,
Yes indeed - The smaller lute will need thinner strings than the
larger
one but if you go by the highest string almost breaking, that will
lead
to a lower tension as the thickness of the chanterelle doesn't seem
to
be related to the pitch at which it breaks.
What I'm getting around to asking is, how do the tensions of the
basses
in a small lute compare to the equivalents in a large lute? If the
small lute has half the string length of the large, and is tuned an
octave higher, the same tension will require the same string
thickness. So if you use thinner basses the tension would need to
be
somewhat less.
Most string calculators I've come across ask the user for the
tension
they want to use, but don't give much in the way of guidance to what
a
reasonable tension should be. Do you know if this has been
investigated and written up anywhere? All the advice I can find is
for
medium-sized lutes and suggests tensions around 3kg per string.
That
would presumably be less for a much smaller lute.
Bill
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
William Samson [4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 9:33
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Bill,
Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest
string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute
will
be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of
76
and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than
a
larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be
much the same.
Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison
since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as
you
point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument.
rgds
Martyn --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson
[5]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:
From: William Samson [6]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22
Hi Martyn,
I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here.
The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string
in
comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things
being
equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher
harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the
fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass
register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's
possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and
so
on) and reduce this effect.
The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being
equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain.
This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short
one
of the same thickness.
One way to try and get around this is to reduce
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Ed and All, Yesterday evening I met someone who had played Jakob Lindberg's Rauwolf, and he told me that it had indeed both wonderful clarity and sustain (as Jakob says), so that you can hear each voice, and indeed each course, quite separately. This could be the sort of quality that the French musicians were searching out for their new tunings (similar to what Anthony Bailes was hoping for with the Wengerer), and perhaps close to the quality Dan Larson achieved when replacing the damaged top on your previous 11c 67cm Frei with a very hard Adirondack top. You said, The top wood is gorgeous, and the sound is very complex. As many have described Adirondack for tops, the treble is very clear, and very strong. I have never heard a new lute with such a singing treble, which makes for a very wonderful sound. http://www.mail-archive.com/baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01536.html It is entirely possible that it is the hardness of the tables of the old lutes (similar to your Adirondack) which gives this singing quality. % So now, I wonder whether the Sitke Spruce on your new 11c lute is not even harder, and with even more of this quality? This must be a very interesting project for Dan Larson, enabling both of you to hear the varied effects of Italian spruce (the original lute), Adirondack on the restoration, and now a thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. on your new lute. That is as close as one can get to neutralizing other parameters so as to make an almost scientific comparison of the tables. Are you able to make judgement about this, and possibly even to record some comparison tracks? % Other ways of achieving hard tops might be the use of very old timber submerged in the great lakes. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/buying_submerged_lumber A specialist of biochemistry at Texas, Professor Nagyvary says that when wood is submerged, bacteria eat away at hemicellulose and starchy matter in the wood, creating wood ideal for instrument makers. He also provoked this hardening effect by applying Borax salts to table-wood; and Martyn has mentioned research application of oxidyzed linseed oil on tables, all with very similar results. % It may be a pity that more instruments do not appear benefitting from this sort of research; indeed, Stephen Gottlieb has told me that modern European spruce is now softer, and needs to be cut thicker (so we have perhaps lost something from a historical performance point of view). Nevertheless, my 11c lute with bear claw spruce (I don't know of what origin), but strung with loaded strings, did have this singing quality, even before, I attempted to improve on the stringing. I believe that even with our quite different methods and sensitivities many of us may be striving for similar qualities. % On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves. I find your string tensions very interesting. I was expecting you to have adopted quite low tensions to achieve thinnish Pistoy basses (similar to those of T. Satoh), but I see you are fairly close to my overall tensions (2K7 on basses and about 3K on octaves), except that I have slightly less bass tension. Even with loaded strings, I do prefer thinnish basses. However, this is just a personal preference; Benjamin N. has thicker basses, and he also achieves a marvellous singing quality. Fortunately, there are various ways of achieving a similar, but hopefully slightly different, musical result, catering for personal choices and taste. Best regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com AEUR : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Cc : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 22h24 Objet : Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony and all, You are correct, in that the table on my lute is ultra hard, being a thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. That material is seldom used in lutes, because it is so hard and dense, making lute rose carving very difficult. But, the results are brilliant. I have another lute, a 13 course Burkholtzer, and I have Pistoys also down to the 10th course, and it is also clear. In my opinion, I like it better than gimped or loaded gut - that is my preference. For tension, I use a medium tension throughout. On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves. The important point is that one must also use an octave at least as high in tension than the fundamental. One interesting thing is the way the mathematics work out. The octave always turns out always to be
