Re: Was: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a Breeder
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Re: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a Breeder
- Original Message - From: "Burlile\MemoriesBMDs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Thank you, Rahda, for your comments. My original post was asking for actual > conversations, not the "why do breeders ask too many questions." > Original post: > Would someone, anyone, everyone, put into the acutal words ... yeah, like > quotes ... what it is breeders are saying, asking, and/ or implying that are > "putoffs," insults, seeming snobby or just plain nosey? I'd like to hear > what's wrong ... in real words with these conversations. Uhm . . . well, I had one person who interrupted me constantly with sharply toned questions--it was not so much the questions themselves, which I was happy to answer, but being interrupted in mid-word with a snappy, "well, who will be home with the puppy?" when I start answering a question about my spouse and my's working lives. I could have gone on to say that we had a puppy walker lined up, and I worked odd hours so there were few days the pup would even need a walker. I'm pretty low-maintaince. I did not meet and talk with many breeders who put me off with nasty attitudes, honestly, and I probably talked to over a dozen Berner breeders. I do have one person who probably was quite angry with me during puppy shopping time. I was on a list for her pups, she called to tell me that she had them on the ground. I asked about the males vs females, all excited (I had no sex preference, as I was planning on having a 2 dog house and would adjust dog 2 according to dog one). I wanted to know could I visit when the pups were old enough, was it a male or female she had for me, etc. The breeder said, "well, I don't know that I actually have a puppy for you in this litter", which I took to mean I was sort of on the high end of the 'if someone backs out list.' I was really disappointed and continued to search for a Berner pup, as I was not going to wait 7-8 weeks to be told 'no pup for you' when it did not work out. I sent off my deposit for Mic and had made plans to go get him the week she called me and said, "well, we need to talk about this male puppy I have for you." I apologized and told her I thought there was not necessarily a puppy for me, so I had continued searching and had just sent off my deposit on a pup. She was *pretty* darn hot under the collar, but honestly, what did she expect? She didn't ask me to come meet her other dogs while waiting for the litter (I asked if I could come and meet relatives and she said "wait for the pups.") Then when the pups came and I wanted to come and meet her dogs and the pups when they were old enough she said "maybe I have a dog, maybe not." Then she called me the week before she was ready to place and was shocked I wasn't on the edge of my seat. I had never so much as clapped eyes on her health certs, seen photos, etc. That's my only bad experience with a breeder, and I felt pretty lousy about upsetting her so much. I felt lead on and dropped, and no doubt she felt the same. Eileen Morgan March 30th Clinic Information: http://www.enter.net/~edlehman/USEAAR2.html The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.458 / Virus Database: 257 - Release Date: 2/24/2003
Was: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a Breeder
Thank you, Rahda, for your comments. My original post was asking for actual conversations, not the "why do breeders ask too many questions." Original post: Would someone, anyone, everyone, put into the acutal words ... yeah, like quotes ... what it is breeders are saying, asking, and/ or implying that are "putoffs," insults, seeming snobby or just plain nosey? I'd like to hear what's wrong ... in real words with these conversations. Rahda wrote: >But let's not be blind to the reality that it is not >just PPO's being oversensitive--there is a problem. *** There certainly was a problem in basic manners and courtesy of the conversations you outlined. Since I am a breeder, other breeders don't have "PPO conversations" with me and are not rude, insulting, snobby or plain nosey (at least not while I'm standing there talking to them! LOLOL!!) I was wondering if it was the questions PPOs were being asked, or the "delivery" of those questions, or something else.. but the comments that you wrote about have nothing to do with a breeder "needing to know" some things about you and were clearly "not nice." Peg wrote: Having been in her shoes before with the snobbish way some breeders can come across *** What did they do/say that caused you to have the impression that breeders were snobby? Was it questions, comments, not returning phone calls, demeanor at doggie events, something else? Kate wrote: I think that before everyone jumps on this lady about being offended by the breeder she was talking to we might want to give her the benefit of the doubt. Not all breeder are very friendly, and it is quite possible that the breeder was rude to her. I think that some positive support about what she can do to make her next experience more informative might be helpful for her versus the pummeling her for daring to speak up and ask No pummeling here, but *exactly* what is it that's offending? Questions? Comments? Conversation? Specific words? Actions? Reactions? I'd still like to hear what's wrong ... in real words ... with these conversations that are giving folks these voiced impressions. Tailwags, Cathy Burlile Memories BMDs
RE: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
Hi Kate and all, I think you've made a good point. And, when I thought the same thing yesterday, I posted to her privately. I expressed my concern about how she was being treated and told her about an up-coming litter. She has not responded. Don't quite know what to make of that. terry thompson missoula, montana At 09:12 AM 03/11/03 -0800, you wrote: This is my first post... but I have been reading for a couple months now, and this is only my opinion: I think that before everyone jumps on this lady about being offended by the breeder she was talking to we might want to give her the benefit of the doubt. Not all breeder are very friendly, and it is quite possible that the breeder was rude to her. I think that some positive support about what she can do to make her next experience more informative might be helpful for her versus the pummeling her for daring to speak up and ask about it. Kate Bert & Lady Cedarburg, WI -Original Message- From: Mary Shaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 10:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Was: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder When I talk to PPO's about getting a berner pup, I always explain that a good breeder will ask LOTS of questions, and not to be put off or offended by that - a good breeder is genuinely concerned about where their pups are going. It always makes them feel better when I tell them that I had three berner breeders turn me down flat as an unsuitable owner! I also volunteer with our local humane society. You wouldn't believe how much verbal abuse we take from potential "adopters" when we ask them to complete our standard questionnaire. There is evidently a segment of the population who feel they have some God-given right to own whatever animal they want, regardless of their suitability, or lack thereof. It is this type of attitude that unfortunately contributes to the problem, whether it be choosing to buy a pup from a pet shop, or taking a "store front give away" pup from another irresponsible pet owner. We see them every day... Mary Shaver and the girls, Laurel and Bailey Fayetteville, GA This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. It is intended only to be read by the individual or entity named above or its designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that you must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and/or DoveBid, Inc. by telephone at (650) 571-7400 or email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete or destroy any copy of this message.
RE: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
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Was: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
As a pet owner myself and being very new to berners I think that this discussion is a little one sided. I had absolutely no problem answering basically any questions a breeder would ask me. I know that, as I said in my post, I needed to prove myself to them and I felt that there are perfectly good, in fact necessary reasons to do this. BUT that does not mean that when I ask questions I expect to be treated as a criminal and nor do I expect to treated as if I purposely ill-intentioned. And it is the case that breeders do this. Now, to preface the rest of this I want to say that on the whole I had a positive experience of research the breed. I met a lot of people who knew a lot and were very helpful and kind. But there were a few experiences that if they had been my only ones (for example if I hadn't grown up with dogs/dog people all my life) might have turned me off for good. For instance, when I asked one breeder at a club event (not a show mind you, more like a gathering) if I could talk to her about her kennel she informed me that breeding was very complicated and I shouldn't expect to understand it from a short conversation (as if I thought I could) and then reamed me out about trying to breed dogs without proper knowledge (as if I would) without ever once pausing to let me interject. In another instance, a breeder was asking me about my lifestyle and I was explaining that I was a graduate student. And he was naturally concerned with my financial ability so I was explaining that I do have some other non-income money sources. He then proceeded to call me a liar--and I don't me insinuate it--and then yelled at me about trying to get a dog without having appropriate means to support it. Now there were also less extreme cases (especially when I was very new to researching the breed) when people would lecture at me, not explain to me, why getting a bernese was so difficult and required a very special type of owner, one that I clearly could never be. Perhaps all of these seem reasonable to people on the list. The reason I am providing these specific examples is that they are not out of the ordinary. From even speaking to new people from this list as well as people I have met at other berner events I have found many similar stories. And the truth is, just because you are a breeder and have the right to ask questions of potential owners does not mean that you have the right to do so at the expense of basic courtesy. I think that what many pet owners object to is being treated as if no matter what we do, we are inferior beings and we are trying to steal some berners. I also think that when people don't really know about puppymills (as I didn't) except that they are supposed to be bad, and then have these experiences with responsible breeders--they start to look for less confrontational ways to find a pup. That's when newpaper ads, pet stores and the like can really suck them in. I think that if you want a berner, it can feel like a desperate need and feeling totally rejected by the bernese community only makes you want to go somewhere else to get a dog. If we want to stop that we need to both let PPO's know what is really going on at petshops AND start treating them like they care. Because I think, if every person who researched the breed met someone who was kind and trying hard to understand what they needed from a dog as well as what the could provide to a dog then we could do a lot in both placing pets and preventing puppymill business. But let's not be blind to the reality that it is not just PPO's being oversensitive--there is a problem. Flame me if you must. Radha and Smokey (Princeton, NJ) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com
Was: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
When I talk to PPO's about getting a berner pup, I always explain that a good breeder will ask LOTS of questions, and not to be put off or offended by that - a good breeder is genuinely concerned about where their pups are going. It always makes them feel better when I tell them that I had three berner breeders turn me down flat as an unsuitable owner! I also volunteer with our local humane society. You wouldn't believe how much verbal abuse we take from potential "adopters" when we ask them to complete our standard questionnaire. There is evidently a segment of the population who feel they have some God-given right to own whatever animal they want, regardless of their suitability, or lack thereof. It is this type of attitude that unfortunately contributes to the problem, whether it be choosing to buy a pup from a pet shop, or taking a "store front give away" pup from another irresponsible pet owner. We see them every day... Mary Shaver and the girls, Laurel and Bailey Fayetteville, GA
Re: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
A friend of mine that shows Berners but is not a Berner owner recently went to some shows in the northern plains states. She is often approached by people looking for a Berner pup and has learned all the "right things" to tell these folks regarding care and health. At this one particular show she said she spent time with a woman who was looking for a puppy. She directed this woman towards the several breeders that were at the show after telling her a little about the breed. My friend overheard some of the conversation with the woman and Berner breeders. My friend felt they were very aggresive in their questioning of the woman. She felt they were defensive and this defensivness comes across as a bit hostile. They wanted to know what she wanted a dog for and what was she going to do with it and was she planning to show it, etc. My friend thought the woman seemed sincere and nice and later that day the woman came back and told my friend that she was the only one that didn't try to run her off. Just some input from a non-Berner dog person Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
Re: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
I just felt like throwing in my two cents. The first thing I think when someone posts to the list and says how a breeder has been "mean" to them because they were asked some questions from the breeder is to stop whining and think. If a breeder is worth anything they will ask questions. I personally wouldn't trust one that didn't. I think some of these people just assume they are the perfect prospect to have a Berner. Then they get asked a some questions and they assume they are being belittled or just don't like being scrutinized. It's ridiculous. If I was a breeder (and have no plans of being one) and asked someone questions and the people resented it I'd run away, and fast, from them. Having a lot of money, a big house, a high position etc. does not make automatically make a good owner. I will never forget a conversation I had with a lady that did Westie rescue in Atlanta. She said the worst case of neglect she had was someone who lived a couple doors down from the governor's mansion. This is a very beautiful, old and moneyed area and the homes are on several acres. The people are at the top of society in this area, but none of that mattered to a neglected little Westie. I thought that was so sad. I think some of these people get caught up in the Berner's beauty without much regard to anything else. They want a lawn ornament to show off. I always hope some of these people don't get a Berner, but the sad part is if these people ended up getting a Berner chances are it will be from a breeder that didn't care enough to ask any questions, because they really didn't care, they got their check. If these people can be educated then that's great. But unfortunately, I just think some of these people think they are entitled to a Berner. There are snobby Berner breeders that think no one is good enough and there are snobby potential Berner owners that are insenced that someone would ask them a question. These PPO's need to do there research when it comes whether a Berner is for them and in picking a breeder. I think the brunt of the responsibility is on the breeders. To me it's so simple, their decisions as to who gets a puppy is the future of the breed. If they can be careful who they sold puppies to (asking PPO's lots of questions) it can only be a good thing for the breed. I have no sympathy for these PPO's that think their privacy has been violated if they are asked a question by a breeder. Flame me if you want, I won't care, but go ahead if you want. And yes I am signing my name. Kathy Schmitz, Woodstock, Georgia Brighteye Meine Liebe "Greta" NAP, NJP, CGC "Mattie" Matterhorn Princess CD, NA, CGC & Gunner (in loving memory and together again at the bridge)
Re: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
Hi Cathy, I think people are actually put off by the fact that we selectively screen our puppy buyers and that we request they sign and enter into a contract with us. They are also put off by the fact that they are entering into a partnership for the life of the dog, with us the breeder. Lots of times these partnerships turn into friendships that last a lifetime!! There are so many people out there that just want to buy a dog, go get and go home and do whatever they please with it. They treat the animal more like purchased merchandise than a human living being and I think that the people we're turning away aren't fit to own a dog, probably 90% of these types of people at least. Kim Morrow Susa Reg'd Saskatoon, SK http://www.bernesedogs.com > I could be very good at "stroking people" too. Is that what you want to > hear from > a breeder?
Was: Had Enough -- Now: How to be a breeder
> Pet shops don't do that -- they stroke people looking at their wares. They thank us for repelling otherwise good homes directly into their lair > > We may have to look at what *we're* doing that causes this behaviour. Would someone, anyone, everyone, put into the acutal words ... yeah, like quotes ... what it is breeders are saying, asking, and/ or implying that are "put offs," insults, seeming snobby or just plain nosey? I'd like to hear what's wrong ... in real words with these conversations. Please leave the "guilty" party's name out of the reply. I could be very good at "stroking people" too. Is that what you want to hear from a breeder? And I don't think I can be convinced that a person that has reached the age of majority ... let's say 18 years of age is "repelled to," or "insulted to," or "has to" buy a Bernese Mountain Dog from a puppy mill, pet store, etc. That is a conscious decision to do so by that adult and that conscious decision should not be "pawned off" to others because of a self-validated reason: "I am going to **HAVE TO** buy a Berner puppy from a puppy mill because __ (fill in the blank.)" More correctly stated would be, "I am choosing to buy a Berner puppy from a puppy mill because _(fill in the blank)." I am choosing to sign-off now ... Tailwags, Cathy Burlile Memories BMDs
