Re: Discouraged with the Breed
"Consequently, elbow problems and sometimes hip dysplasia can be environmentally caused through injury to these areas at an early age." Sorry -- can't just let this go -- we have newbies on our list all the time and they deserve the straight scoop. Too many are made to feel responsible when their dogs are dysplasic. >From the OFA website: "Hip Dysplasia is a terrible genetic disease..." and "Elbow dysplasia is a general term used to identify an inherited polygenic disease in the elbow of dogs." Hip and elbow dysplasia are genetic diseases. The OFA website also explains, "There are multiple environmental factors such as caloric intake, level of exercise, and weather that can affect the severity of clinical signs and phenotypic expression (radiographic changes)." So environmental things can make it worse or better, but do not cause hip and elbow dysplasia. Certainly hips, elbows and other body parts can be injured but hip and elbow dysplasia, according to the experts, is in the genes. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
RE: Discouraged with the breed
Hi Tracey, I'm sorry your puppy has been diagnosed with hip dyplasia and that as a result of your personal experiences you have a dim view of the breed but the Berner does not deserve to be extinct, there are many strong healthy Berners living with a true zest for life that enriches their owner's lives. When researching you need to ask about family history, siblings of ancestors need to be considered. Whatever breed you decide to investigate if they have a list such as this ask questions about problems and seek out a mentor who can tell you about important dogs in the breed's history and which of those are noted for their excellence in passing on the traits you deem important. You need to see more than a three generation pedigree in order to see how closely related the more recent ones are and then ask as to whether this has been a positive thing or not. Outcrosses can be a stab in the dark but not all close breedings are necessarily a good thing either. Ask loads of questions and check back with others for accuracy. All the best with your puppy and your future choices, I hope your breeder(s) have been supportive to you. Rose T.
Re: Discouraged with the breed/Puppies
I am interested in hearing from breeders who put such limitations (no stairs, no walks, etc) on their puppies -- why is this done??? Personally I encourage my owners to let their dogs be dogs - lifting in and out of vehicles only if they are tall and the pups are too small. My 14 week olds are too small to get in and out of the jeep alone but I have taught them to put up their front feet then boost their rears. When I had a sedan they could climb in the back without help. As for steps, let them do them but not play on them. Encourage a controlled pace and use a leash if necessary to keep them aware of where they put they feet but do not avoid steps as I think they build good muscles for the joints. Avoid slick stairs and slick floors, especially at a faster gait than a walk. Put down throw rugs if necessary to avoid excessive slipping. Keep nails trimmed so the pads make good contact. As for exercise, exercise is good but do not overdo it. Let the pup go at it own pace and as it matures and builds muscle and endurance, lengthen the walks and degree of difficulty - ie go from yards and flat areas to paths and forests with rocks and inclines. Start walks with a few houses and build up to a block. As the pup grows, lengthen the walks but do not jog, bike, or power walk with a dog before it is at least 18 months - 2 years. Also no organized jumping as I feel the impact on the growing joints can offer a potential injury (over logs, fences, etc). Then x-ray to determine if the dog is capable of such exercise. Also evaluate the level of endurance the dog is capable of at that age and the amount of muscle tone and growth maturity to see if such exercise should be gradual and at what level it can be increased. As for playing with other dogs, I let them. The pups can usually tell me if the dog is too rough or they will flatten on the ground to avoid being hurt. If I see this behavior repeated at frequent intervals in a short play session, I will separate the two dogs and wait for the puppy to be a little older and also work with the older dog to play more gently. Since being this relaxed, both dogs raised under this have clean hips and elbows. I am waiting to x-ray my 19 month old until she turns 2 but I see no reason she will not clear - at least no clinical reason. Her sister's x-rays look fantastic at 17 months and she is 10x more energetic than my girl. It's a full time job!! Molly and the gang Quellen Bernese
Re: Discouraged with the breed
Tracy Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Guess what hip hisplaysia in one hip and still no diagnosis for the limping in the front end we x-rayed my first berner when he was 10 months old since he was limping on and off and would only pace for the show ring. My vet and a specialist we consulted both agreed that they would not say he had hip dysplasia but neither one would say he did NOT have hip dysplasia. Both recommended I wait until he was at least 2 years old and repeat. In the meantime, unless he showed increased limping, don't worry. They did discuss a potential TPO before he reached a certain age if we felt his hips were in need of that. I did not want surgery so I decided to take my chances. At age 2 I redid the x-rays and he received an OFA good. At the age of 11 years 4 months, he has slowed down a little but he is still sound and can move like the wind in a show ring. He can still jump on and off my bed, run up a flight of stairs, and jump in and out of the back of my Grand Cherokee. I have had him on Glyco-Flex since he was about 4 and started adding Ester-C this winter. My second berner received 3 different ratings from OFA on her hips and elbows - none of them passing but all of them different grades with a different diagnosis. I never did any surgery but kept her muscled and lean. She only started showing lameness around age 6 but even then, after "warming up" she had a flowing gait. She was also on Glyco-Flex and I kept her thin. Sadly she died of histio over the winter. Joints go through so much in that first year that unless it is SO obvious and the pup is showing pain and an altered gait, there is a chance all will mature better than expected. The front end could also be pano and something that will pass as the pup ages. Try Ester-C, a low protein, low fat food, and exercise. My mom's golden had such severe pano that she had to carry him for 8 months - he refused to walk. They feared dysplasia but on x-ray at 8 months, he had gorgeous joints - but the long bones were inflamed indicating pano. He finally grew out of it by 14 months and remains sound at almost 9 years. Good luck, Molly and the gang Charlottesville, VA
Re: Discouraged with the breed/Puppies
I think moderation is the trick with puppies, and even adult dogs. While I do not think 8 week old puppies ought to walk three miles, the other extreme is letting them do nothing at all. How does anyone live with a puppy who does not exercise?! Stairs can be taught and managed so that small puppies do not leap halfway down, and walks can be appropriate for the age. I am interested in hearing from breeders who put such limitations (no stairs, no walks, etc) on their puppies -- why is this done??? I actually prefer off leash walks/exercise for puppies, and leash walks only for teaching leash manners with a younger puppy. I take my puppy to a fenced baseball diamond most every morning and let her run and play to her heart's content, usually with her older sister, Maize. She is 7.5 months now but I have been doing this since she was small. I have started taking her to an off leash dog park as well to assist with continued socialization. She also started tracking at 8 weeks and that was quite a bit of exercise as well. I have given up worrying about her jumping on/off the couch, chairs or coffee table -- I am just happy that she is no longer getting on the kitchen table! I cannot imagine this athletic, fearless and busy puppy not being allowed to move and exercise, and this is how I have been with all of my berners. Hip and elbow dysplasia are going to happen if you get the right (wrong!) combination of genes. Therefore, might as well let the puppy be a puppy and not treat her like a hot house flower. Again, moderation and common sense are important -- a puppy is still a baby. Also, regarding a front limp -- REST THE DOG. When no cause can be found you may will be dealing with a soft tissue injury that is not being allowed to heal. Rest means crate or small pen, leash walks only to potty and that is it for at least a week and better for two. Owners find this SO hard to do and so the injury never really heals -- it requires tough love :) Mary-Ann Bowman Utah Emma, CDX, DD, CGC, retired Abra, VCD1 (TD, CD, NA, NAJ), CDX, DD, OA, CGC Maize, VCD1 (TD, CD, NA, NAJ), OAJ, OA, DD, CGC Halo deVil, TD (seven months and nothing but trouble in spite of lots of exercise :)
Re: Discouraged with the breed
Tracy Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Guess what hip hisplaysia in one hip and still no diagnosis for the >limping in the front end Hi Tracy, I am really so sorry your pup seems to have joint problems so young; but I believe you do have cause for hope. She's awfully young to be diagnosed with HD. Her hips can and will change as she matures & her shoulder problem maybe little more than a strain. Over the years, I've stopped wrapping my pups in cotton wool - I've found they're far more likely to hurt themselves on the one opportunity they find to run loose! I exercise them moderately, on lead, this way they build up muscle mass to help support those quick growing bones. They are then left to enjoy the garden and because they have been used to daily walks and supervised exercise, they don't go mad. Granted, they have their 'funny 5 minutes', and occasionally when rough housing with adult dogs, will fall over; they've even fallen through the ice into the pond! But... I don't think this has been in any way related to joint problems. My Newfy pup, now 18 months, was not confined or restrained in any way and from the start she played hard with Toby-newf (who, incidentally also has poor joints, despite research into his background). For the first couple of months, her lead exercise was just a half mile or so, and that was sufficient. But once she showed signs of wanting more, we obliged. Her joints are wonderful and she now races round the garden with Roxie, the pair of them pretending they're greyhounds I think! Tracy also wrote: >Remind me again why we continue to prolong the existence of this >breed when we are continually fighting Darwin's evolutionary >principle "survival of the fittest"!! I can understand completely how despondent you must be feeling, especially since you are having a run of bad luck. I've been through exactly the same with my Bernese: Hannah - exceptionally poor temperament, skin problems, blind rage fits, fear aggression. Died from Anaphylactic shock after a bee sting at 18 months. (1987) Hannah Too: this time we researched and researched and still our pup was diagnosed with shoulder dysplasia at 7 months, and was euthanised at 3 after having uncontrollable pain from 'a tumour'. Post Mortem diagnosed Histio. (1991) (At this point, I had a phrase based on Oscar Wilde going through my head: To lose one dog (parent) may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness. ... ) Boots - a rescue. He was nearly 8 when the pain of spondylitis was too great to bear. (1996) Belle - a puppy farm brood bitch. Died on the operating table at 6 and a half. PM showed a microscopic apocrine gland cancer. (2000) Jaz - also a puppy farm brood bitch & her full litter sister. Euthanised at 7. PM showed primary lung cancer. (2001) ANNIE - LIVED TILL SHE WAS ELEVEN AND A HALF (2002) She's the reason I have hope. And until Roxie, my 2 year old, I had never had a dog without joint problems, BUT all my dogs loved life and lived it to the full. I could never be without a Berner. After having them in my life for 17 years, I understand that although they come and go quicker than other breeds, we're working on it and seeing results. I know that each one has added to the knowledge base and that dogs I have in the future will benefit from that. There is a great deal of research being done on their behalf - recent advances in genetic science are astounding and are being used to further our understanding of 'The Bernese Problem'. Every time a Post Mortem is carried out and results are added to the research, we are one step nearer to eradicating the horrendous disease problems. We just can't give up now and stop helping our beloved breed overcome Darwin's theory, that's one of the reasons why we fight against puppy mills, BYB breeders & auctions, to prevent dogs with bad genetic material being introduced back into the breed. I believe passionately that WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. That's why I shall never give up. Bernese have a hold on my heart that I'll never relinquish. They deserve to live pain free, long lives and if it takes human intervention to turn Darwin's theory around, then I shall do everything I can to help. Hug your pup hard and look optimistically to all the happy years you will spend together :-). Liz Bradbury in Scotland, with Roxie the bouncing Berner; Newfs Toby and Maggie; & the 6 Feline Fiends. http://www.btinternet.com/~liz.Bradbury1
Re: Discouraged with the breed
A fit well exercised dog will cope better with dysplasia than an unfit one. If you exercise your puppy you cannot create dysplasia ..you will only possibly bring to the surface an already underlying problem. But a fit well muscled puppy will be better off with or without dysplasia. Of course if the puppy is lame you need to rest him / her...but once the limping stops slowly build up some muscle tone again by walking. I have experienced on a number of occassions vets tell my puppy owners that their pups have dysplasia. When consulted I ask the owner to ensure xrays are sent to a specialist radiologist for a report ...99% of the time the specialist reports back that there is no problem. Of course no hips are perfect and if the vet is comparing BMD xrays with fox terrier xrays the BMD will always look worse. Shoulder OCD is very easily fixed with surgery ..its the best to have if you have to have any of it. As the shoulder is the first point of contact in any body slamming game or a clumsey pup running into something you can often have soft tissue or ligament damage which can take a while to heal. Although a puppy might have periods of lameness growing up, often problems right themselves after the growth phase is complete. In some cases I would not rush to have surgery performed...especially if the dog is not cronically lame. How many stairs are we talking about when lifting? I think a Bernese puppy can manage a few stairs ok ...the problem lies with a puppy deciding he/ she might just skip the last 6 and do a superman act off the verandah etc. These are just my opinions. All the best with your baby! Nicole Lennon Zanzebern Bernese Australia www.zanzebern.com
Re: Discouraged with the breed
I am so sorry for your troubles and your discouragement. It is unfair that bad things happen, and especially when they seem to happen in clusters. Life is wonderful but it is not perfect -- bad things happen all the time. No breed of dog is immune from problems, just as none of us are guaranteed a long and healthy life. Luckily, hip dysplasia is not the end of the world. Also, remember that hips change -- there is a reason that OFA will not certify hips before a dog is two. I am not sure I would be too worried about an asymptomatic dog with questionable hips at a young age. I would repeat the films when she is two and send them to a certifying organization for a definitive diagnosis. In the meantime, let her be a puppy! Take walks, have fun, keep her lean :) I am struck once again by the things that people require of their puppy buyers -- carrying puppies on stairs?! Not taking her on walks?! Sounds like a recipe for back problems and a wild puppy to me!! Do other people get such directives?? Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
