Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 03:05:25PM +0100, Andreas Schildbach wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. At the moment, I imagine the vast majority of Bitcoin users are familliar with SI units and know what milli- and micro- mean. I doubt that is true of the general population, though. roy -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're lobbying for mBTC? On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas. It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin are used to some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices with more than two decimals. With 1 bit = 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good. Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between. Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're lobbying for mBTC? On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I don't think this is particularly true. The options people are given are all good in this case and all have their merits. The reason people are converting to fiat using the exchange rates is because right now the exchanges define its value. People have no intuitive idea that a loaf of bread cost X BTC. This isn't going to change anytime soon. In my opinion it doesn't really matter what denomination you use. If we switched to micro we would have 3 extra digits we would be working with on a daily basis which have very little significance. But thats just a western point of view and people could adapt. The real problems are that millibitcoin and microbitcoin are hard to say loud and the both start with 'm' not too many people have a mu key on their keyboard. Even Bitcoin is not nice to say. it has two very hard sounds together in the middle of the word. It would be far easier if we had a system like one ham is 1000 bits, one bacon is 1000 hams. Clearly a ridiculous example but try saying and you'll realize how much easier it is to describe things not that they are clearly differentiable words that are easy to say. I like bits as the lowest one. But its not something you can decide. The common names will have to develop naturally and in all likelihood will differ between regions (I know I know we must keep it standardized but what might be easy to say in North America probably isn't as easy elsewhere.) So give people the options (Let them transact on their own terms). I would say restrict it to BTC milli and micro in the settings that will help nudge people towards even different regions simply having different names for the same quantity as opposed to some place having 10 hams as a pixie. On 14 March 2014 10:14, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I don't know about financial software. I really don't get what you mean by weird notation? Bitcoin Wallet is made for ordinary users. They are used to real-world prices like EUR 1.63 / USD 2.26 (that would be the Espresso example). How can mBTC 3.56 be weird to these people? Granted, there are exceptions, like in Japan. Maybe those would be better served with µBTC as default. Maybe. Up to now, outside of this mailing list nobody requested µBTC. Then again, Japanese userbase is tiny compared to US. On 03/14/2014 04:12 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas. It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin are used to some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices with more than two decimals. With 1 bit = 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good. Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between. Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're lobbying for mBTC? On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I think Mark makes some good arguments. I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit with 2 decimals of precision. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands of rupees in Indonesia. This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves trace lineage to the pound sterling). No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. However another limitation of these accounting software practices is that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully compliant with any software accounting package out there. We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Well, not sure I wanted to subscribe the mbtc vs ubtc list... its a default, not a big deal. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
so much discussion for a visual update... make this a user experiment: -give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC -retrieve the results after some time -make the default the most used option 2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos mor...@gmail.com: I think Mark makes some good arguments. I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit with 2 decimals of precision. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands of rupees in Indonesia. This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves trace lineage to the pound sterling). No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. However another limitation of these accounting software practices is that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully compliant with any software accounting package out there. We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Fairly useless experiment, since the vast majority of users will almost always stay at the default. The winner will always be whatever was selected as the default initially. This might work if the default was randomly chosen, and you see what actually annoyed users enough to switch off of it most often. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Ricardo Filipe ricardojdfil...@gmail.comwrote: so much discussion for a visual update... make this a user experiment: -give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC -retrieve the results after some time -make the default the most used option 2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos mor...@gmail.com: I think Mark makes some good arguments. I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit with 2 decimals of precision. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands of rupees in Indonesia. This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves trace lineage to the pound sterling). No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. However another limitation of these accounting software practices is that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully compliant with any software accounting package out there. We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I think * if we change to mBTC because your state currencys price for bitcoin make this a valid option we will change again in future * users do not like changes * we should keep a good standard A good standard should be * built on standards (e.g. SI) * backed by best practice: never force the user to take an option he cannot change * do not make changes without users permission * take care of users at fault when entering 5.967 ot should be pointed out before sending that e.g. the sw understood 5967.000 000 00 BTC instead of 5.967 000 00 BTC because the user failed to use the correct delimiter. For now a good standard is * simply bitcoin as BTC with eight decimal places or could be * uBTC as SI prefix, probably using XBT as a symbol for compatibility with other software * satoshis (w. SI prefixes if numbers are to big) for regions where decimal places in prices are uncommon So I'd prefer: Make the choice transparent to users and set a standard that the user alway should be empowered to use all available decimal places. And there should be a set of official test-cases for wallet software and the desired behavior. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Physical key / edge detection software and PIN to generate private key
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Jack Scott jack.scott.pub...@gmail.comwrote: BIP: XX Title: Physical key / edge detection software and PIN to generate a Bitcoin private key Author: Jack Scott Status: Idea Type: Standard Track Created: 13-3-2014 Abstract: A method is proposed to generate a Bitcoin private key by using a physical key in conjunction with image recognition software and a PIN. Use edge detection software applied to incoming video feed to convert the shape of a physical key into an equation that describes the key. The hash of the key's equation plus a user generated five digit pin can then be used to create a Bitcoin private key. Interesting idea, though as Wladimir mentioned, a real-world key is much less secure than a Bitcoin/PGP key, though in this case, I could see your physical/visual key being any complex, high-contrast image (like a Motion Tracking Target: https://www.google.com/search?q=tracking+markerstbm=isch), if just using edge-detection (a high-contrast image would help make low-light or out-of-focus shots still able to be detected), though like a QR-code, it should probably have calibration markers in the corners to specify orientation (would help decoding a skewed or rotated image) and the standard should enforce some minimum level of complexity to prevent really simple and easy-to-reproduce/steal keys . Though if you're getting to that level of complexity, you might as well just have a QR code of the private key. Brooks -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Regarding (ISO standards) currency symbols, XBT is already used as equivalent to 1 Bitcoin in numerous places, and XBC is taken and BT* belongs to Bhutan (and X** is already the default for non-national currency common items of trade), so IMHO we should define something like XUB as microbitcoins so we can have a symbol that doesn't require changing any existing systems and that can be standardized globally. Then those with accounting software that needs to deal with something that has two decimals maximum without losing precision can use that while following well defined standards. And those who don't like large numbers can still chose to show mBTC. - Sent from my phone Den 14 mar 2014 18:18 skrev vv01f vv...@riseup.net: I think * if we change to mBTC because your state currencys price for bitcoin make this a valid option we will change again in future * users do not like changes * we should keep a good standard A good standard should be * built on standards (e.g. SI) * backed by best practice: never force the user to take an option he cannot change * do not make changes without users permission * take care of users at fault when entering 5.967 ot should be pointed out before sending that e.g. the sw understood 5967.000 000 00 BTC instead of 5.967 000 00 BTC because the user failed to use the correct delimiter. For now a good standard is * simply bitcoin as BTC with eight decimal places or could be * uBTC as SI prefix, probably using XBT as a symbol for compatibility with other software * satoshis (w. SI prefixes if numbers are to big) for regions where decimal places in prices are uncommon So I'd prefer: Make the choice transparent to users and set a standard that the user alway should be empowered to use all available decimal places. And there should be a set of official test-cases for wallet software and the desired behavior. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Hello, I see a lot of talk on this topic and get the senst that it is focused on default display only regarding the mBTC / uBTC questions. However, if the focus is broader, involving whether or how to express other currencies or moving further along to what that might even mean (since many people have different ideas about what a currency is) perhaps there is another issue to open, or a process BIP to address how to display other concepts, for example: other currencies microdonations etc. I sense however that may be outside the scope of this thread, so I'll just stop here and try to read samples of the other stuff going on here. -Odinn http://abis.io Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
