Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, 2010-02-10 at 15:35 -0500, stosss wrote: Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? Because providing technical support, voluntary or not, is pretty bad for one's mental health - constantly responding to the same questions and suggestions again and again and again, frequently without any thanks. Especially so with volunteers, where gratitude is the only reward we can expect. Now, I agree with you, some of us can be a bit sharp - saying You must have done something wrong, go back and read the instructions again is neither helpful, nor friendly. But understand that people aren't intending to be unpleasant - just stressed, or frustrated at being asked the same questions again and again. Simon signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 4:53 AM, Simon Geard delga...@ihug.co.nz wrote: On Wed, 2010-02-10 at 15:35 -0500, stosss wrote: Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? Because providing technical support, voluntary or not, is pretty bad for one's mental health - constantly responding to the same questions and suggestions again and again and again, frequently without any thanks. Especially so with volunteers, where gratitude is the only reward we can expect. Now, I agree with you, some of us can be a bit sharp - saying You must have done something wrong, go back and read the instructions again is neither helpful, nor friendly. But understand that people aren't intending to be unpleasant - just stressed, or frustrated at being asked the same questions again and again. I agree -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
blfs-book-svn-html
What is different between these two? blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-04 blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 Both only show changes as of 02/03 and this is also at the top of the page for both of them svn-20100203. I double checked to make sure I had the right one. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote these words on 02/10/10 02:35 CST: What is different between these two? blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-04 blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 Both only show changes as of 02/03 and this is also at the top of the page for both of them svn-20100203. I double checked to make sure I had the right one. Where do you see a blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 book? There is not one that I am aware of. -- Randy rmlscsi: [bogomips 1003.22] [GNU ld version 2.16.1] [gcc (GCC) 4.0.3] [GNU C Library stable release version 2.3.6] [Linux 2.6.14.3 i686] 05:32:01 up 45 days, 10:40, 1 user, load average: 0.30, 0.10, 0.03 -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Randy McMurchy ra...@linuxfromscratch.org wrote: stosss wrote these words on 02/10/10 02:35 CST: What is different between these two? blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-04 blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 Both only show changes as of 02/03 and this is also at the top of the page for both of them svn-20100203. I double checked to make sure I had the right one. Where do you see a blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 book? There is not one that I am aware of. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/downloads/svn/ only it is blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-10 now I got it before it changed. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Randy McMurchy ra...@linuxfromscratch.org wrote: stosss wrote these words on 02/10/10 02:35 CST: What is different between these two? blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-04 blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 Both only show changes as of 02/03 and this is also at the top of the page for both of them svn-20100203. I double checked to make sure I had the right one. Where do you see a blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 book? There is not one that I am aware of. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/downloads/svn/ only it is blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-10 now I got it before it changed. That the date the tarball was generated, but not the date of the book. There is a script that generates the book daily. If the date is more than one day old, there has been a problem of some kind. The date of the book is set in the source BOOK/general.ent and is on the top of each page in th ebook. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Randy McMurchy ra...@linuxfromscratch.org wrote: stosss wrote these words on 02/10/10 02:35 CST: What is different between these two? blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-04 blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 Both only show changes as of 02/03 and this is also at the top of the page for both of them svn-20100203. I double checked to make sure I had the right one. Where do you see a blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 book? There is not one that I am aware of. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/downloads/svn/ only it is blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-10 now I got it before it changed. That the date the tarball was generated, but not the date of the book. There is a script that generates the book daily. If the date is more than one day old, there has been a problem of some kind. The date of the book is set in the source BOOK/general.ent and is on the top of each page in th ebook. Exactly and the 2010-02-09 and 2010-02-10 both have 20100203 at the top of the page. The last entry in the change log is February 3rd, 2010 according to this the book has not changed in seven days. Hence my original question. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
What is different between these two? blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-04 blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 Both only show changes as of 02/03 and this is also at the top of the page for both of them svn-20100203. I double checked to make sure I had the right one. Where do you see a blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-09 book? There is not one that I am aware of. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/downloads/svn/ only it is blfs-book-svn-html-2010-02-10 now I got it before it changed. That the date the tarball was generated, but not the date of the book. There is a script that generates the book daily. If the date is more than one day old, there has been a problem of some kind. The date of the book is set in the source BOOK/general.ent and is on the top of each page in th ebook. Exactly and the 2010-02-09 and 2010-02-10 both have 20100203 at the top of the page. The last entry in the change log is February 3rd, 2010 according to this the book has not changed in seven days. Hence my original question. Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? Because it is set up as a cron job and I didn't go to the effort of trying to figure out if any of the 300 or so pages changed. Most people will look at the document itself, especially the change log, to see what changes have been made. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? Because it is set up as a cron job and I didn't go to the effort of trying to figure out if any of the 300 or so pages changed. Most people will look at the document itself, especially the change log, to see what changes have been made. That is exactly what I did. According to the change Log the book has not changed in 7 days. I also put this in one of my earlier posts on this thread. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? Because it is set up as a cron job and I didn't go to the effort of trying to figure out if any of the 300 or so pages changed. Most people will look at the document itself, especially the change log, to see what changes have been made. That is exactly what I did. According to the change Log the book has not changed in 7 days. I also put this in one of my earlier posts on this thread. What's your point? -- bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? Because it is set up as a cron job and I didn't go to the effort of trying to figure out if any of the 300 or so pages changed. Most people will look at the document itself, especially the change log, to see what changes have been made. That is exactly what I did. According to the change Log the book has not changed in 7 days. I also put this in one of my earlier posts on this thread. What's your point? My original point was to find out what was different between the 02/03 and 02/09 snapshots since there did not appear to be any. Then my new point was to question the reason for generating new snapshots if nothing changed. Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:35 PM, stosss sto...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? Because it is set up as a cron job and I didn't go to the effort of trying to figure out if any of the 300 or so pages changed. Most people will look at the document itself, especially the change log, to see what changes have been made. That is exactly what I did. According to the change Log the book has not changed in 7 days. I also put this in one of my earlier posts on this thread. What's your point? My original point was to find out what was different between the 02/03 and 02/09 snapshots since there did not appear to be any. Then my new point was to question the reason for generating new snapshots if nothing changed. Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? Because there is only one real rule in linux. YMYR (Your Machine Your Rules) In other words, if you don't like how things are managed by others, talk to them and if they disagree go ahead and pick up your bat and ball and head home. P.S., you were very accusatory with that last post. I'd try not to be too rude to people you're asking support from. ~SpaceGhost -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? I think that's a little unfair. Please remember that both the LFS and BLFS projects are based on *volunteer* effort and therefore noone should *expect* to have their particular pet-peeve fixed in any particular amount of time (or at all in fact). Whilst we do endeavour to address all suggestions, lack of time or a particular urge to 'scratch an itch' that a particular developer may not be feeling is more than reasonable behaviour in such projects. Why is the fact that we regenerate the book every day such a problem for you? If the date of the book hasn't been incremented then it's fairly safe to say that no changes have been made. I don't think it would take too much to change our nightly jobs to not render a new copy of the book if no changes have been made, but again, nobody apart from you seems to care at the moment. Given the long list of defects in BLFS' Trac system I'd wager that most of the devs would rather spend time tackling them than preventing regeneration of a book on a server that has plenty of capacity to do so. Regards, Matt. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? Maybe because we have been doing this for 10 years and what most new contributors suggest is technically incorrect. Perhaps it is because many things are arbitrary decisions and that's just the way we decided to do it. Your opinion of 'improve' is not necessarily ours. That's not to say that we ignore suggestions. In many cases, we have to judge the work involved to make a change and the value of that change. For your suggestion, the cost is too high for the value received. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? Because it is set up as a cron job and I didn't go to the effort of trying to figure out if any of the 300 or so pages changed. Most people will look at the document itself, especially the change log, to see what changes have been made. That is exactly what I did. According to the change Log the book has not changed in 7 days. I also put this in one of my earlier posts on this thread. What's your point? My original point was to find out what was different between the 02/03 and 02/09 snapshots since there did not appear to be any. Then my new point was to question the reason for generating new snapshots if nothing changed. Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? Because there is only one real rule in linux. YMYR (Your Machine Your Rules) In other words, if you don't like how things are managed by others, talk to them and if they disagree go ahead and pick up your bat and ball and head home. P.S., you were very accusatory with that last post. I'd try not to be too rude to people you're asking support from. I am just pointing out the facts as can be found by searching the archives of any of the LFS mailing lists. I am not trying to be accusatory or rude. Your response is the typical response that can also by found in the same archives to the challenges made by many. Often times it is necessary to find help and solutions from some place other than LFS because of this kind of attitude from people responding as you have. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Matthew Burgess matt...@linuxfromscratch.org wrote: stosss wrote: Why is it that you and other developers are so touchy about the book and its condition and people pointing out things that could be done different, better or whatever? Why do you and the others insist on thinking there is nothing wrong with the book and so unwilling to improve it? I think that's a little unfair. Please remember that both the LFS and BLFS projects are based on *volunteer* effort and therefore noone should *expect* to have their particular pet-peeve fixed in any particular amount of time (or at all in fact). Whilst we do endeavour to address all suggestions, lack of time or a particular urge to 'scratch an itch' that a particular developer may not be feeling is more than reasonable behaviour in such projects. Why is the fact that we regenerate the book every day such a problem for you? If the date of the book hasn't been incremented then it's fairly safe to say that no changes have been made. I don't think it would take too much to change our nightly jobs to not render a new copy of the book if no changes have been made, but again, nobody apart from you seems to care at the moment. Given the long list of defects in BLFS' Trac system I'd wager that most of the devs would rather spend time tackling them than preventing regeneration of a book on a server that has plenty of capacity to do so. Matthew and Bruce, I am not complaining. I am simply asking. I do realize that this is a volunteer project. I am not expecting you to do things as though you have to. I am willing to jump in and help. I am sorry if you have taken offense. That is not my intention. Yes you get defensive and that is understandable. But it would be a lot better if I and others could figure out how to ask more politely and if those taking offense might also be willing to take a deep breath and assume maybe the person is not trying to be offensive. so, again I apologies. I really would like to help. I like the LFS project. I have been looking at some others that are similar. I don't like them as much but their docs seem to be a little cleaner or better in some ways. There really are some areas that could be improved. The nightly snapshots is not a big deal. I don't have a problem with it. i was not sure about what was going on because the book date was still the same. you guys answered that so okay. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
I am just pointing out the facts as can be found by searching the archives of any of the LFS mailing lists. I am not trying to be accusatory or rude. Your response is the typical response that can also by found in the same archives to the challenges made by many. I'm glad it's typical to you, shouldn't that be saying something if you find that same response multiple times from many people? I think the only problem here is the way you approached the situation. Often times it is necessary to find help and solutions from some place other than LFS because of this kind of attitude from people responding as you have. So, I'm rude for pointing out that you're rude... Makes so much sense now. Remember, we're all volunteering. You're free to go somewhere else, or stay here and play nicely. ~SpaceGhost -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: I am not complaining. I am simply asking. Sometimes its hard to interpret words when they are only written. My interpretation of your words was a complaint. It may not have been your intent. volunteer project. I am not expecting you to do things as though you have to. I am willing to jump in and help. I am sorry if you have taken offense. There is no offense taken. Perhaps you interpreted some of our written words in a way not intended. again I apologies. OK, but I don't really think that's necessary. There really are some areas that could be improved. That's always true, but what those improvements would be will differ from person to person. It becomes an opinion. We have well over 21000 registered users of LFS. By far, most have not commented on the mailing lists. I also think that many who build LFS do not register, but I can't speculate how many that would be. I think that the vast majority of successful LFS builders do just fine with the book the way it is. However we will still try to improve it. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
stosss wrote: [putolin] Exactly and the 2010-02-09 and 2010-02-10 both have 20100203 at the top of the page. The last entry in the change log is February 3rd, 2010 according to this the book has not changed in seven days. Hence my original question. Also what is the point of a nightly snapshot if the book has not changed? To make sure you have the very latest ;) -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: blfs-book-svn-html
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: stosss wrote: I am not complaining. I am simply asking. Sometimes its hard to interpret words when they are only written. Yes, that is the problem with written communication. My interpretation of your words was a complaint. It may not have been your intent. volunteer project. I am not expecting you to do things as though you have to. I am willing to jump in and help. I am sorry if you have taken offense. There is no offense taken. Perhaps you interpreted some of our written words in a way not intended. again I apologies. OK, but I don't really think that's necessary. There really are some areas that could be improved. That's always true, but what those improvements would be will differ from person to person. It becomes an opinion. True I think that the vast majority of successful LFS builders do just fine with the book the way it is. However we will still try to improve it. Yes, people who are determined to figure things out do go on to build a workable system. I did once I understood the mind set or concept of the way the book was written. If I have a good point of reference and understand the rules/structure/guide or whatever, I can get from the beginning to the end. Its when I can't get that known good point of reference that I get all messed up. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/blfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
