Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Telesto]

Please don't confuse "making voices heard", which is generally good, 
with "offering them a vote", which is generally problematic if they do 
not carry any responsibilities upon which their votes might rely and 
especially if they are willing to vote for ideas they don't fully 
understand on the basis only of personality or identity. Decisions made 
in that way have bad outcomes.


+1 for the above

Sometimes I think, don't make it to to complex. As there number of 
people contributing to the discussion oversee able. So maybe some kind 
of news article/news board of system;  An introduction article [Starting 
point] + comment system like this (not sure how it's called); 
https://tweakers.net/reviews/7694/last/android-11-kleine-verfijningen-zonder-zoete-verrassingen.html#reacties. 
The starting point can be created by anybody registered. The response 
and the voting makes it easier to keep track of important input 
(read-up) and what people support or not. For tapping into the general 
public I would prefer a a polling system. Some background story [XXX] 
What do you think about Community Edition. Great Idea! Not so, 
because..  [44 characters or maybe few more to keep it short]. If the 
want to give more input they should go you can go to www..


The ultimately decision should me made at the board.  The community 
tools intended to gather input (and should communicated this way). Note: 
still having issues managing the topic flow. The topic evolved more or 
less from 'Personal edition' to "Community edition". Where a group 
lagging still responded to 'Personal Edition' while I got the feeling 
that we moved on already. Another issue is managing people like me, 
chaotic thinkers. After the Commodity Edition /Enterprise it started I 
to question the Edition (which I initially supported). With next step 
objecting against Edition terminology within the current context. And 
I'm surely having issues to 'grasp' the positions. What I needs to 
clarified.


Telesto

Op 17-7-2020 om 19:32 schreef Simon Phipps:




On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:19 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez 
> wrote:


El 2020-07-17 13:20, Simon Phipps escribió:
> There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by
Madrid City
> Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used
> worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of
Directors. See
> https://consulproject.org/en/
>
> All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring
> thousands of voters into a decision making process where they
have no
> responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just
> become factional and partisan based on external agendas.

I believe that it is crucially important to allow as many voices as
possible to be heard, and the consequent monitoring process is
greatly
facilitated by the implementation of a tool such as Decidim so,
together
BoD & Community can decide about the issues that matter to us.


Please don't confuse "making voices heard", which is generally good, 
with "offering them a vote", which is generally problematic if they do 
not carry any responsibilities upon which their votes might rely and 
especially if they are willing to vote for ideas they don't fully 
understand on the basis only of personality or identity. Decisions 
made in that way have bad outcomes.


S.
--
*Simon Phipps*
/Meshed Insights Ltd/

Re: [board-discuss] New Version of Strategic Marcom Plan

[toki]

On 2020/07/17 16:22, Mark Hung wrote:

> My impression as a user regarding LibreOffice Personal ( or Individuals,
> Individuals WFH, students ) vs LibreOffice Enterprises is that they might
> be different in their features, where LibreOffice Enterprise might have a
> bunch of features that suits best in enterprise environments. 

Most of the features that anything larger than a MicroBusiness want or
needs, require integration into other software, typically using an
extension for LibreOffice.

Enterprise users will see extensions such as WollMux as being part of
the default install.

Enterprise users are also more likely to see things like GIT, R, and
Zotero installed, as part of their LibreOffice, and treated as part of
LibreOffice, and not independent programs.

>However I wonder if it is really possible to make such kind of 
>differentiation. 

Currently:
* NeoOffice is the core LibreOffice product, with a number of
modifications that improve performance, functionality, and capability on
the Mac OS X platform;
* EuroOffice is the core LibreOffice product, with a number of
modifications that make it more useful for multilingual documents, and
offices;
* OxOffice is the core LibreOffice product, with modifications that make
it much more suitable for use in CJKV environments;

* Depending upon what you ask for, when you ask for it, and how much an
organisation is willing to pay, Collabora can provide an organisation
with everything from Tier 1 through Tier 5 support. The client can be
using anything from stock LibreOffice, to something the compiled
specifically for the client by Collabora developers, with complete
integration into all of the client's workflow;

> In reality, LibreOffice TBD will be controlled by contributors. Unless 
> someone invest energy explicitly, the feature of LibreOffice TBD will not 
> match its name. Eventually it might be very hard to differ it from 
> LibreOffice Enterprise. 

The way I see it, is that the LibreOffice Ecosystem support vendors will
be offering the core LibreOffice product, which has been customised for
the specific needs of the client organisation.

For the ecosystem partners, the crucial time to get into the client's
workplace, is when the client decides to migrate to LibreOffice. This is
when the client is most willing to spend additional money for the
customisations to LibO that are needed, for it to fit within their
existing workflow.

>Or maybe the life cycle that differs. LibreOffice
half-year-supported-release v.s LibreOffice LTS from ecosystem company

Currently, different vendors offer long term support for periods of time
ranging from two years to ten years. That won't change under the
proposed Strategic MarCom Plan.

jonathon

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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

El 2020-07-17 15:05, Michael Meeks escribió:

On 17/07/2020 18:52, Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote:

Well, misunderstanding of ideas can be avoided simply by communicating
in such a way that no aspect is taken for granted when making the
request for feedback.


	I have no problem with tools to get polls / feedback from our 
userbase;

that's great =)

	Of course, for decisions - we are a meritocracy^W doers-decide 
project;
so having some separate means for the members to easily inform the 
board

/ discuss and/or give their input / views on things would also be
extremely valuable. Hopefully some clear separation would make
membership - and more importantly the contribution necessary to achieve
it more attractive to people too (perhaps).

My 2 cents,



Well, the membership base is small enough (221 to date) to condition 
feedback to that group only.


Ideas can add up, grow and take shape with a wider audience. That is the 
spirit behind the initiative.





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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Michael Meeks]

On 17/07/2020 18:52, Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote:
> Well, misunderstanding of ideas can be avoided simply by communicating
> in such a way that no aspect is taken for granted when making the
> request for feedback.

I have no problem with tools to get polls / feedback from our userbase;
that's great =)

Of course, for decisions - we are a meritocracy^W doers-decide project;
so having some separate means for the members to easily inform the board
/ discuss and/or give their input / views on things would also be
extremely valuable. Hopefully some clear separation would make
membership - and more importantly the contribution necessary to achieve
it more attractive to people too (perhaps).

My 2 cents,

Michael.

-- 
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Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks
(M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe

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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

El 2020-07-17 15:02, Sophie escribió:

Le 17 juillet 2020 19:32:11 GMT+02:00, Simon Phipps
 a écrit :

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:19 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez <
drodrig...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:


El 2020-07-17 13:20, Simon Phipps escribió:
> There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by Madrid

City

> Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used
> worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of Directors.

See

> https://consulproject.org/en/
>
> All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring
> thousands of voters into a decision making process where they have

no

> responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just
> become factional and partisan based on external agendas.

I believe that it is crucially important to allow as many voices as
possible to be heard, and the consequent monitoring process is

greatly

facilitated by the implementation of a tool such as Decidim so,

together

BoD & Community can decide about the issues that matter to us.



Please don't confuse "making voices heard", which is generally good,
with
"offering them a vote", which is generally problematic if they do not
carry
any responsibilities upon which their votes might rely and especially
if
they are willing to vote for ideas they don't fully understand on the
basis
only of personality or identity. Decisions made in that way have bad
outcomes.


This is not about offering to vote (wich can be disabled in Decidim
which I know better than other tools) but about providing a support to
a comment. It's very different because that allows people not fluent
in English to give an educated opinion and partipate. It's easy when
you're fluent to express yourself, and it takes hours to one who is
not, most of the time he will abandon before.


+100 :-D




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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Sophie]

Le 17 juillet 2020 19:32:11 GMT+02:00, Simon Phipps  a écrit 
:
>On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:19 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez <
>drodrig...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> El 2020-07-17 13:20, Simon Phipps escribió:
>> > There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by Madrid
>City
>> > Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used
>> > worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of Directors.
>See
>> > https://consulproject.org/en/
>> >
>> > All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring
>> > thousands of voters into a decision making process where they have
>no
>> > responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just
>> > become factional and partisan based on external agendas.
>>
>> I believe that it is crucially important to allow as many voices as
>> possible to be heard, and the consequent monitoring process is
>greatly
>> facilitated by the implementation of a tool such as Decidim so,
>together
>> BoD & Community can decide about the issues that matter to us.
>>
>
>Please don't confuse "making voices heard", which is generally good,
>with
>"offering them a vote", which is generally problematic if they do not
>carry
>any responsibilities upon which their votes might rely and especially
>if
>they are willing to vote for ideas they don't fully understand on the
>basis
>only of personality or identity. Decisions made in that way have bad
>outcomes.

This is not about offering to vote (wich can be disabled in Decidim which I 
know better than other tools) but about providing a support to a comment. It's 
very different because that allows people not fluent in English to give an 
educated opinion and partipate. It's easy when you're fluent to express 
yourself, and it takes hours to one who is not, most of the time he will 
abandon before.
Cheers
Sophie


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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

El 2020-07-17 14:32, Simon Phipps escribió:

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:19 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez 
 wrote:



El 2020-07-17 13:20, Simon Phipps escribió:
There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by Madrid 
City

Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used
worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of Directors. See
https://consulproject.org/en/

All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring
thousands of voters into a decision making process where they have no
responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just
become factional and partisan based on external agendas.


I believe that it is crucially important to allow as many voices as
possible to be heard, and the consequent monitoring process is greatly
facilitated by the implementation of a tool such as Decidim so, 
together

BoD & Community can decide about the issues that matter to us.


Please don't confuse "making voices heard", which is generally good, 
with "offering them a vote", which is generally problematic if they do 
not carry any responsibilities upon which their votes might rely and 
especially if they are willing to vote for ideas they don't fully 
understand on the basis only of personality or identity. Decisions made 
in that way have bad outcomes.


Well, misunderstanding of ideas can be avoided simply by communicating 
in such a way that no aspect is taken for granted when making the 
request for feedback.




--
DAR

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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Simon Phipps]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:19 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez <
drodrig...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> El 2020-07-17 13:20, Simon Phipps escribió:
> > There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by Madrid City
> > Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used
> > worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of Directors. See
> > https://consulproject.org/en/
> >
> > All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring
> > thousands of voters into a decision making process where they have no
> > responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just
> > become factional and partisan based on external agendas.
>
> I believe that it is crucially important to allow as many voices as
> possible to be heard, and the consequent monitoring process is greatly
> facilitated by the implementation of a tool such as Decidim so, together
> BoD & Community can decide about the issues that matter to us.
>

Please don't confuse "making voices heard", which is generally good, with
"offering them a vote", which is generally problematic if they do not carry
any responsibilities upon which their votes might rely and especially if
they are willing to vote for ideas they don't fully understand on the basis
only of personality or identity. Decisions made in that way have bad
outcomes.

S.
-- 
*Simon Phipps*
*Meshed Insights Ltd*

Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

El 2020-07-17 13:20, Simon Phipps escribió:


On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:03 PM Kev M  wrote:

There are other participatory democracy software out there that exist 
but I don't know many that are Open Source.


There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by Madrid City 
Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used 
worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of Directors. See 
https://consulproject.org/en/


All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring 
thousands of voters into a decision making process where they have no 
responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just 
become factional and partisan based on external agendas.


I believe that it is crucially important to allow as many voices as 
possible to be heard, and the consequent monitoring process is greatly 
facilitated by the implementation of a tool such as Decidim so, together 
BoD & Community can decide about the issues that matter to us.




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Re: [board-discuss] New Version of Strategic Marcom Plan

[Mark Hung]

Hi Italo,

I got a few questions regarding the branding part of the plan, p46-p53.

It seems that the need of "editions" is deemed to be necessary, and the
"target audience" has been selected as the differentiate criteria
implicitly.
My impression as a user regarding LibreOffice Personal ( or Individuals,
Individuals WFH, students ) vs LibreOffice Enterprises is that they might
be different in their features, where LibreOffice Enterprise might have a
bunch of features that suits best in enterprise environments. However I
wonder if it is really possible to make such kind of differentiation.  In
reality, LibreOffice TBD will be controlled by contributors. Unless someone
invest energy explicitly, the feature of LibreOffice TBD will not match its
name. Eventually it might be very hard to differ it from LibreOffice
Enterprise.

Or do we want to differentiate is the support status of LibreOffice itself,
ex,
LibreOffice without professional support subscription
LibreOffice with professional support subscription from certified ecosystem
company X.

( I know these are too lengthy to be a good label and the wording of the
first one might not feel comfortable. )

Or maybe the life cycle that differs.
LibreOffice half-year-supported-release v.s LibreOffice LTS from ecosystem
company

Or maybe by the maintainers / technical support person
LibreOffice community vs LibreOffice enterprise
(despite everything you mentioned in p50)

I'm not a marketing person at all, so
I'm just trying to understand the intention and hope I found something that
helps.



Best Regards.





Italo Vignoli  於 2020年7月15日 週三 下午10:07寫道：

> A new version of the strategic marcom plan has been uploaded to
> Nextcloud: https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/4pLtn9xn76BkxFK
>
> Please refer to this version for your comment, as it clarifies some
> specific points which were raised during the discussion, although not
> mentioned at all in the previous slide deck.
>
> --
> Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR
> mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org
> hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
> GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
> DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
>
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>

-- 
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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Simon Phipps]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:03 PM Kev M  wrote:

>
> There are other participatory democracy software out there that exist but
> I don't know many that are Open Source.
>

There is also CONSUL, which was developed as open source by Madrid City
Council, transferred to an independent Foundation and is now used
worldwide. Italo Vignoli is a member of their Board of Directors. See
https://consulproject.org/en/

All the same, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to bring
thousands of voters into a decision making process where they have no
responsibilities to moderate their exercise of rights. It will just become
factional and partisan based on external agendas.

S.
-- 
*Simon Phipps*
*Meshed Insights Ltd*

Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Kev M]

If democraciaOS is not available/up to date I would suggest investigating 
https://www.loomio.org/ - They are open source under the GPL-license.

There are other participatory democracy software out there that exist but I 
don't know many that are Open Source.

Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

El 2020-07-17 11:42, Cor Nouws escribió:

Hi Daniel, *,

Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote on 17/07/2020 15:11:
As stated at the meeting, the number of subscribers to the mailing 
lists

is significantly low. The user list, for example, has about 1500
subscribers, the Spanish and Brazilian lists have about 350 people 
each.

TDF has today 221 members and this list only 160 people. Therefore,
beyond the fact that the subscription is voluntary, it cannot be said
that many people are encouraged to participate in the discussions.


It is indeed right that mailing lists are not for _all_ - any more.
/me those were good times ;)


It has to do with a social issue, as someone said, but also with the
language barrier and the ability to argue an idea. And I'm pretty sure
that providing a platform where people can vote on comments/ideas will
allow TDF to attract much more participation, even from those who 
don't

speak English as fluently... as I do.


Of course it is not needed to get votes in the first place, but 
allowing
people to provide input, without the need to set up an email address 
for

that, is indeed important.


To make it clear, this is not an attempt to solve several problems at
once, I don't expect to present a final solution, if there is one. But


I heard a likewise comment in the BoD meeting indeed, and could not 
well

understand it myself.
Maybe the idea was to express that the problem is a complex one, and 
not

only solved by different tooling. Maybe the tooling even is less
important than an attitude that encourages participation.
I remember quite some moments from the past, that on a mailing lists, 
in

a discussion, or at the start of it, it was recognized that we should
try to use more public lists for the kind of topics.. Sometimes that
worked. But to often, with the load of work, difficulty to manage,
moderate (more widely) discussions etc. we fell in old habits.. ;)


as a foundation with a global reach we need to make people willing to
participate. If such behavior modification is achieved through 
technical

change, then we welcome it.


Indeed. Technical means can help.
If a mailing list was available for all, one could say that it would be
sufficient to announce on all channels that discussion.topic is ongoing
there to encourage people to join - if they so wish.
And of course that applies to any preferred tool: make sure that people
in other channels get a ping to make them aware.


Once implemented, of course an invitation will send through all the 
channels

to let people give it a try. I'm thinking in a blog post also.


What I propose is to give the platform a chance without leaving any
other tools aside, for a certain period of time, and then evaluate the
performance.


I did not look into details of https://democraciaos.org/en/


Well, unfortunately DemocracyOS is currently without maintenance. So the 
preferred choice is decidim, which is a most complete and powerfull 
tool.



But I have a high trust in open source and tooling developed to support
democracy. So, with only the condition that it allows to have (some)
interaction with mail (and I guess it has), I'm much in favor to give 
it

a try!


Indeed, notifications are send through email


Maybe with a few projects, topics to start with - not do a complete
remake of our work immediately - it yields good experience.


Of course

And imagine it makes it even easier to improve our attitudes at the 
same time :)







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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

El 2020-07-17 11:12, Thorsten Behrens escribió:

Hi Franklin, all,

Franklin Weng wrote:

BTW, even if it becomes 15th useless channel, which can be tweaked,
tried and improved from the running experiences, it will not be a
big deal IMO.


Sure, it would create more silos & further fracture the community.

As I said during the board call - this is lovely technology, that I
can imagine we can put to good use, for some areas.

But it doesn't solve the 'too many channels' problem (as it was
advertised to do). Let's not fool ourselves.

Unless we're willing to shut down mailing lists & telegram channels,
and actively shepherd community members over.


We have to show the community the usefulness of the platform. We can't 
make use mandatory, that doesn't work.


I already commented on the numbers related to the number of subscribers 
that have some mailing lists, and such numbers are not representative of 
the whole community IMO.





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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Daniel, *,

Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote on 17/07/2020 15:11:
> As stated at the meeting, the number of subscribers to the mailing lists
> is significantly low. The user list, for example, has about 1500
> subscribers, the Spanish and Brazilian lists have about 350 people each.
> TDF has today 221 members and this list only 160 people. Therefore,
> beyond the fact that the subscription is voluntary, it cannot be said
> that many people are encouraged to participate in the discussions.

It is indeed right that mailing lists are not for _all_ - any more.
/me those were good times ;)

> It has to do with a social issue, as someone said, but also with the
> language barrier and the ability to argue an idea. And I'm pretty sure
> that providing a platform where people can vote on comments/ideas will
> allow TDF to attract much more participation, even from those who don't
> speak English as fluently... as I do.

Of course it is not needed to get votes in the first place, but allowing
people to provide input, without the need to set up an email address for
that, is indeed important.

> To make it clear, this is not an attempt to solve several problems at
> once, I don't expect to present a final solution, if there is one. But

I heard a likewise comment in the BoD meeting indeed, and could not well
understand it myself.
Maybe the idea was to express that the problem is a complex one, and not
only solved by different tooling. Maybe the tooling even is less
important than an attitude that encourages participation.
I remember quite some moments from the past, that on a mailing lists, in
a discussion, or at the start of it, it was recognized that we should
try to use more public lists for the kind of topics.. Sometimes that
worked. But to often, with the load of work, difficulty to manage,
moderate (more widely) discussions etc. we fell in old habits.. ;)

> as a foundation with a global reach we need to make people willing to
> participate. If such behavior modification is achieved through technical
> change, then we welcome it.

Indeed. Technical means can help.
If a mailing list was available for all, one could say that it would be
sufficient to announce on all channels that discussion.topic is ongoing
there to encourage people to join - if they so wish.
And of course that applies to any preferred tool: make sure that people
in other channels get a ping to make them aware.

> What I propose is to give the platform a chance without leaving any
> other tools aside, for a certain period of time, and then evaluate the
> performance.

I did not look into details of https://democraciaos.org/en/
But I have a high trust in open source and tooling developed to support
democracy. So, with only the condition that it allows to have (some)
interaction with mail (and I guess it has), I'm much in favor to give it
a try!
Maybe with a few projects, topics to start with - not do a complete
remake of our work immediately - it yields good experience. And imagine
it makes it even easier to improve our attitudes at the same time :)

So yes. Thanks!

Cor



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Re: [board-discuss] FLOSS software money ecosystem, in general [was Personal: and software freedom.]

[Telesto]

As long as the judgement is based on listing the pro/contra's.
That other Office suite are delivering their product to whole range of 
users does say something, IMHO.
Can you get inside those organisations. And do you want to be dependend 
only large company's.
If those paying for features and functions known outside the company's 
needs within the community; so creating different priority's

And even used - so tested - by the community.

I'm more from the bottom up approach, instead of going for the big fish.
If those big fish come along, and you can catch them.. please do. Prefer 
broad user base.


And what should those work from home users use? LibreOffice of 
Enterprise? Only by example.


I'm lacking a clear picture too. That's the whole point about market 
analyses. And considering the options and argue about them.
Also include synergy effects. And costs having an off-the-shelf product. 
Risk of people using the wrong product. SMB version at Enterprise level.


Italo Vignoli might have some show cases what I try to tell.. even if 
the whole investigation of the market and the and assessment of 
everything can be subjective somewhat subjective.
It will be best guesses after all. However major point is you're 
overthinking lots aspects. And you are aware of those. Business Plans 
are no holy grail. Only tools to help you market something.
Preventing trying thing at random, in the hopes to succeed. If you could 
have known in advance it won't.


Op 17-7-2020 om 12:15 schreef Lionel Élie Mamane:


Just to be clear, while I have my opinions about rivers, if the
ecosystem companies judge they will have better success in the
enterprise space, I respect that.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 10:15:09AM +0200, Telesto wrote:
I'm agreeing with the text below; the river part  especially. There 
needs to

be a business case/plan made prior to acting
Op 17-7-2020 om 01:10 schreef Lionel Élie Mamane:

I'm going to speak about individuals and small teams (SMEs etc); I
do understand this is not the short-term focus now, but it what I
know and it is close to my heart; most of a country's GDP is made
by SMEs; that's where, in the aggregate, most of the money is, but
it is there by many small streams, not as a few big rivers (English
doesn't use a different name for small and big (Rhine or Danube
size) rivers, so the French expression doesn't translate well...).



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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Thorsten Behrens]

Hi Franklin, all,

Franklin Weng wrote:
> BTW, even if it becomes 15th useless channel, which can be tweaked,
> tried and improved from the running experiences, it will not be a
> big deal IMO.
>
Sure, it would create more silos & further fracture the community.

As I said during the board call - this is lovely technology, that I
can imagine we can put to good use, for some areas.

But it doesn't solve the 'too many channels' problem (as it was
advertised to do). Let's not fool ourselves.

Unless we're willing to shut down mailing lists & telegram channels,
and actively shepherd community members over.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten


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Re: [board-discuss] New Version of Strategic Marcom Plan

[Telesto]

What is the targeted objective? To get a marketing communication plan passed? I 
prefer to put that on hold. Consensus about what to do, yes. A plan preparing a 
change. A Schedule. List of things what needs to be done. Research. 
Investigating options products/solutions. Markets/ Products. Say, should there 
be Personal Edition with some extra's (StarOffice) or doesn't that work 
(StarOffice again?).

Setting a *5 year*!! communication plan is surely not go. If really, really 
want to push that thing through, do it for 1 or 2 years an re-evaluate.

However I a Marketing Communication Plan still really problematic as this 
should be an part of large Marketing Plan which is part of a clear business 
plan (or business plans)
Those other elements (Business Plan, Marketing plan) are pre-requirements for a 
Communication Plan. And even more problematic because we are talking about 
Communication Plan of TDF, and not vendors

Yes, compromises are needed. And there are a lot of compromises to be made. 
However a Communication plan is build on the other building blocks (Business 
plan/Marketing plan).
First a compromise must be found about the business plan, next the marketing 
plan and at that point the Communication plan. Not the other way around. The 
foundation is missing. Hanging in air with loses ends everywhere. Not enough 
substance. Enough munition to shoot (criticize) sharp. There is no clear 
vision/proposition target. Nor an evaluation if the target makes sense. One/two 
big fish or plenty of small fishes? Losing a big fish is far more painful 
compared to few small fishes.

The whole input here, by different people shows this (jonathon / Lionel Élie 
Mamane / me). Their are lose ends everywhere

There should be consensus how to move forwards. Doing a Market analyses (what is the 
market/market needs; type of customers) / Developing a Marketing Strategy/ crushing the 
numbers what returns would be/ overthinking the position of TDF. Assessing why there is no 
interest in paid services. L1/2 support relevant for Goverments/University/s NGO or those 
doing this kind of stuff in house? Overthinking if there should be multiple Enterprise 
Desktop editions by different powered by different company's. The whole forking thing is 
typically for open source. The one year Ubuntu the number one, next Mint, next OpenSuse, or 
Arch or should I use Debian. Everybody repeating lots of stuff, wasting resources &  
capital to make point on some "minor" differences. Ubuntu didn't want to include 
codecs? Mint did. Mint became bigger. Ubuntu changed minds [not that I follow the Linux 
community regular basis, but I assume it's gone this way]. And Collabora/CIB are already 
convicted to each other anyhow, I think. Both can't maintain LibreOffice alone as the 
knowledge about the code is distributed across. So combine resources. Start some kind of 
joint venture, where the Enterprise (or other editions are sold). And make agreements about 
how profits are shared and the new projects etc. It's not much different compared to the 
current case. Not sure how to fit in RedHat (or if it needs to). Again; I think things should 
be reshuffled a lot;

So I personally would prefer to leave the marketing communication plan. Use it 
as a starting point for a revamp of the whole Enterprise around LibreOffice. On 
that point consensus is needed. So start a business plan project. Make a 
schedule. Dividing tasks. To a market scan (and write it out). Develop product 
options/ assess the feasibility product options. Developing strategy's etc. 
Making people responsible. Ideally the eco-partners should take the lead; it's 
about their business. TDF should be in the loop. And people possibly want to 
help (because this is shared effort) to the continuity of LibreOffice.

Introducing a business strategy at the LibreOffice 7.0 release would have be a 
nice thing. However, we pasted that station already. The preparation should 
have been started 1,5-2 year ago (to make it for 7.0). You maybe lucky to get 
it done before 7.2 release. Or bend the rules, and jump to 8.0 at 7.2?

If the company's are gonna promote of the shelf editions, a webshop must be 
build. You have to take rules of VAT in account (different country's different 
rules) or some kind of payment provider servicing that. So lots of research 
etc. The Enterprise edition will not suddenly sell million of copy's. Large 
organizations are hard to convert taking years. And I hope that the company's 
involved have enough cash to survive 1/2 years without major cuts in 
Development. And have some budget (quite) available to short this whole thing 
out; this is surely a upfront investment, with intended to repay itself.

Are those plan of StarOffice/Oracle still around? Market has changed, of 
course, but might be some thing useful in it. Or something from Ubuntu of 
whatever you can get a hold off. Sparring partners operating commercially in 
same type of eco-system could be helpful. As 

Re: [board-discuss] Big organisations not contributing

[Michael Meeks]

On 14/07/2020 12:22, Sophi wrote:
> There is another item here, I know several orgs buying services from
> companies that are not good players with FLOSS communities. This is
> something in my view which is important to address

Absolutely. So - the original plan here was not just just to do a
"Fedora vs. RHEL" style marketing separation of LibreOffice derived
products - but to ensure that the "LibreOffice Enterprise" side of this
- could only be used in products backed by a suitable number of a
combination of (say the average):

* certified developers
* contributing developers

by providing a clear economic incentive and a distinct postioning we
can simultaneously highlight those who take but don't contribute, and
also provide a clear economic incentive for them to contribute.

> Finding ways to expend the ecosystem is vital too.

Exactly - so of course, where there is an economic incentive,
investment and hence more developers, a wider ecosystem etc. follows
behind =)

I believe Bjoern sketched a similar idea in his recent mail too =)

Clearly - we need more time to elaborate & communicate how all of those
pieces could fit together to make something that drives TDF's mission
like a rocket ship =)

HTH,

Michael.

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Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.

[Michael Meeks]

Hi there,

I thought I'd pull together a thread that runs through a
subset of the comments here:

Here is Mark S writing in bugzilla:
> Let LibreOffice stay LibreOffice, and let any commercial derivatives
> deal with naming issues of their products on their own time.

Several other comments are more of the form:

"your problem, not mine", or
"TDF doesn't need to nurture an ecosystem -
 why complain to TDF" ?

So - of course, that is on one hand fine. Hypothetically TDF
could sit at the center of a pure volunteer project, perhaps with
enough mentors and enough donations that might work out (though on
current trends this might also result in a project a tenth of the
size). On the other hand getting there from here, while not loosing all
momentum would be wrenchingly problematic.

I guess there are some elaboraions of this:

On 15/07/2020 14:11, Telesto wrote:
> The 'free beer' argument starting to become annoying;-). I'm hearing
> lots of self-pitty.
> Nobody asks a company to contribute to the LibreOffice code (for free).
> Yes, it belongs to a model where you believe in.
> If you believe code be open source, while making profit, it's also your
> task to come up with a business model generating revenue.

Sure, so - it's a harsh market. TDF can choose to make it
harsher by competing with the ecosystem that creates much of the
LibreOffice code, and mentors much of the developer community. Or it
can be passive and do nothing to nurture investment. Or it can create
space for those that contribute to its mission and help out. Having a
clear approach is helpful though. One of the problems is ambiguity:
bait & switch: encourage the investment, but squash the returns by
changing the rules =) That is why having a long-term settled consensus
is really helpful.

> The world is hard and pretty unfair.

Indeed, on the other hand - my hope is that we shouldn't use
that as an argument to structure things to be deliberately unfair. To
a large degree TDF helps to seed the environment for the ecosystem to
flourish around the codebase and fulfill its mission with it. Arguably
(and I would say this) TDF cannot fill every niche, and serve every
market itself - for a host of reasons.

On 14/07/2020 16:07, toki wrote:
> On 2020/07/14 10:41, Michael Meeks wrote:
>> On 12/07/2020 20:32, toki wrote:
>>> I'd blame the lack of sales on Collabora having a really bad website
>>
>>  So, if getting sales is only a function of a really good website
>
> I think it was Brian Tracy who wrote if your website can't sell the
> qualified prospect, it needs to be redesigned.

 I think we're all hopeful that we can create an advert or
webpage that makes it impossible not to buy your product ;-) Brian's
quote mentions qualified prospects - that's much easier with a
sensible lead flow of people who are aware that you exist.

>> Beyond that - creating, maintaining and translating a website into
>> a handful of languages is an expensive hobby.
>
> Budget US$100,000 per language per year, for a multilingual website.
> This is addition to the cost of designing and maintaining the website.
> Before adding languages, look at both the financial ROI, and PR value.
> Will the language generate at least US$1,000,000 in additional business
> each year ?

Well, for our existing ~five languages - if we did that we'd
have to transition half of our development staff to marketing at some
significant loss to Free software; I assume you'll want a big budget
for paid multi-language advertising to bring people to that website,
and for sales people too to qualify the leads ? That would consume our
entire budget without any contribution back.

Either way - given that the same website sells Online but not
Desktop, despite advertising both, my suggestion would be that making
people aware that they shouldn't be running large un-supported
deployments - is a leading factor here.

> The last thing any business owner wants to hear from a current
> customer is "I went with company x, because I didn't know you
> provided that service."

I think that's the fundamental problem here; getting the word
out effectively that the services around LibreOffice exist, and that
buying them is good for the customer, good for the codebase, so good
for all our users, and good for the community.

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[Daniel Armando Rodriguez]

As stated at the meeting, the number of subscribers to the mailing lists 
is significantly low. The user list, for example, has about 1500 
subscribers, the Spanish and Brazilian lists have about 350 people each. 
TDF has today 221 members and this list only 160 people. Therefore, 
beyond the fact that the subscription is voluntary, it cannot be said 
that many people are encouraged to participate in the discussions.


It has to do with a social issue, as someone said, but also with the 
language barrier and the ability to argue an idea. And I'm pretty sure 
that providing a platform where people can vote on comments/ideas will 
allow TDF to attract much more participation, even from those who don't 
speak English as fluently... as I do.


To make it clear, this is not an attempt to solve several problems at 
once, I don't expect to present a final solution, if there is one. But 
as a foundation with a global reach we need to make people willing to 
participate. If such behavior modification is achieved through technical 
change, then we welcome it.


What I propose is to give the platform a chance without leaving any 
other tools aside, for a certain period of time, and then evaluate the 
performance.









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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [board-discuss] Initiative to improve communication channels

[sophi]

Hi,
Le 09/07/2020 à 16:03, Daniel Armando Rodriguez a écrit :
> El 2020-07-09 06:05, Ilmari Lauhakangas escribió:
>> Thorsten Behrens kirjoitti 9.7.2020 klo 11.44:
>>> Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote:
 DemocracyOS vs. anything we currently have is an apples to oranges
 comparison meaning we *can't* shut anything down.

>>> But how would DemocracyOS then help to solve the too-many-channels
>>> problem?
>>
>> In my view it would not help solve that specific problem. I guess the
>> idea was instead to have a channel geared towards a very specific
>> purpose (feedback to TDF governance) with an interface that would be
>> pleasant for the majority.
> 
> Ilmari did the reading I was aiming at.
> 
> One example, spanish ML has 329 subscribers so far. Takign just the 1%
> of the spanish speaking people worldwide, which is about 500 millions,
> that number is not even insignificant.
> 
> That's the main reason that motivates me, to bring new users closer
> through a channel more in tune with the current times and, therefore,
> something that most computer users are used to.

I agree, and by the way, it's not yet another communication channel as
some may see it, it's a participative platform to collect feedback from
large groups in an organized way either by comments, supports or votesœ.
Decision takers spend less time to analyze and sort the feedback
provided than on mailing lists. For a project of our size, I feel it's
also needed to have participatory mechanisms that are welcoming to NLPs
too and civic technologies are an answer to that.
Thorsten, I understand your fears that the communication may spread over
another tool, but it's a matter of education and contributors will
quickly see the advantages of using it instead of posting on Telegram,
BZ or mailing lists because it's exactly done for governance. It's also
a way to value their feedback by having a mean to support it.

Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [board-discuss] New Version of Strategic Marcom Plan

[Italo Vignoli]

On 7/16/20 11:36 PM, Uwe Altmann wrote:

> Slide 28
> What is the surplus of the sum of "volonteers" and "ecosystem" to form the 
> "community"? Users? Takers?

That is a visual representation of the relationships between volunteers
and ecosystem inside the community, and has no relation with the size of
the constituents. So outside community and ecosystem there is nothing,
but an oval which contains both smaller ovals to show that they are part
of the same community has some extra space as a consequence of the oval
shape (if I has used circles, the extra space would have been bigger).

> And my "ceterum censeo..."
> Slide 49/50
> This is why I and some others propose "" set as TDB - so we get "LibreOffice" 
> and "LibreOffice Enterprise,[brought to you by XYZ]" as a result. This avoids 
> all of the possible negative connotations each of the proposed "additions" to 
> the build distributed by TDF brings. And allows the intended discrimination 
> as well:
> Basically we say there is a "LibreOffice" (vanilla) and "LibreOffice with 
> benefits" (Enterprise,...) - and that's exactly what we want to tell the 
> people, isn't it?

We have to find a solution where there is consensus by all parties, and
it looks that consensus is partially missing on the one you suggest.

I may or may not agree with the proposed solutions (there will be a day
when I will write a lengthy blog post where I will tell in a transparent
way what I think about this story and the people involved, but this is
not the right time), so the objective is to reach consensus with an
acceptable compromise.

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Re: [board-discuss] New Version of Strategic Marcom Plan

[Michael Weghorn]

On 17/07/2020 09.46, Uwe Altmann wrote:
> Am 17.07.20 um 08:47 schrieb Michael Weghorn:
>> Doesn't TDF fund programming of software when it does tenders?
> 
> Yes, but only in special cases and under limited conditions. Therefore the 
> tenders have to be carefully thought of and cannot be at free will.

Thanks for the update; I wasn't really aware about the legal background
here.

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Re: [board-discuss] New Version of Strategic Marcom Plan

[Uwe Altmann]

Am 17.07.20 um 08:47 schrieb Michael Weghorn:
> Doesn't TDF fund programming of software when it does tenders?

Yes, but only in special cases and under limited conditions. Therefore the 
tenders have to be carefully thought of and cannot be at free will.
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Uwe Altmann

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