Re: [board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi Kev, Kev M wrote: > Casual observer here. Lot's of thoughts about the discussion over > the last few months. > Thx for sharing your thoughts - it's quite valuable to get the somehow outside view reflected back at us. ;) > 1) Just pass the resolution and get donor funds working towards > development. It isn't and will never be a competitive threat to > Collabora/Altropia. > We're actually on a good way, that this vote may pass now. > 2) Please find a board governance arbitrator ASAP. > That's also in-progress (we started looking for consultants, independently of this a few weeks ago) > And strongly recommend you stop using back channels in a FOSS > project. > That might actually be a misunderstanding. The list people were referring to, is the one open to all TDF members. So it's more a strive to having project-internal arguments (like how to read the statutes) in a venue where people can speak more freely. Cheers, Thorsten -- Thorsten Behrens, Director, Member of the Board The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, Germany Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
+1 Best, Gabriel On 2022-12-02 10:24, Cor Nouws wrote: Dear people, Thanks for the constructive feedback on the proposal. Various changes applied, I now call a vote for the resolution below. Your response within 72 hours from now is much appreciated. Cheers, Cor -%<-- ## TDF Developer Hiring Resolution 2022 "Whereas, - with TDF stewarding, among other things, a well-working symbiosis of various companies and volunteer developers inside of the LibreOffice community; - given that in the current situation, there are certain areas where extra developers can add value with additional activities, that complement the existing contributions; - with this being an ongoing need; Therefore the board resolves that: - TDF will seek to hire a developer(s); - who will report to the ED as a regular team member, and consult weekly with the ESC, which will oversee the technical direction of the work; - who will work in such a way, that both volunteer and ecosystem peers regard them as helpful, supportive and complementing their own work; - for whom as the initial areas of work, the board identifies improving RTL/CTL writing support and accessibility for LibreOffice; as well as mentoring new volunteers in these specific areas. After that, depending on skills available, Writer tables, Base, general regression fixing, Draw, and Math are the next focus areas; - thus, there will be two job postings, with requirements matching the initial focus areas listed above, and one or two developers will be hired initially; - after 6, and after 9 months following the developers starting their work, the board will do an assessment of the situation and results. Requirements for the candidates: * Very good C++ development skills; * Proven experience with Accessibility and/or RTL/CTL, additional CJK experience is a strong plus; * Love for open source; * Team players; * Experience with LibreOffice development is a plus. Footnote: for a requirements analysis on the need for hiring developers, please refer to information on the pages 3-8 of the abandoned dev proposal: https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/qofn646Jg6bmPYB " -%<-- Cor Nouws wrote on 28/11/2022 10:58: Hi all, As promised. After the previous draft text ended up in a dead-end, with apparently no compromise possible, it is time for a fresh start to get developers hired. The initial discussion was valuable and also informing this proposal. With the following, we suggest a new proposal, brief and positive, that makes clear where we stand, building on trust in the community, and leaves it to the board to pragmatically act, based on their task and responsibility to try to do the best thing for the foundation. Your feedback is much appreciated. Thanks, Cor -%<-- ## TDF Developer Hiring Resolution 2022 "Whereas, - with TDF stewarding, among other things, a well-working symbiosis of various companies and volunteer developers inside of the LibreOffice community; - given that in the current situation, there are certain areas where extra developers can add value with additional activities, that complement the existing contributions; - with this being an ongoing need; Therefore the board resolves that: - TDF will seek to hire a developer(s) reporting to the ESC; - who will work in such a way, that both volunteer and ecosystem peers regard them as helpful, supportive and complementing their own work; - for whom as the initial areas of work, the board identifies improving RTL/CTL writing support and accessibility for LibreOffice core; as well as mentoring new volunteers in these specific areas. After that, depending on skills available, Writer tables, Base, general regression fixing, Draw, and Math are the next focus areas; - thus, there will be two job postings, with requirements matching the initial focus areas listed above, and one or two developers will be hired initially; - after 6, and after 9 months following the developers starting their work, the board will do an assessment of the situation and results. Requirements for the candidates: * Very good C++ development skills; * Proven experience with Accessibility and/or RTL/CTL, additional CJK experience is a strong plus; * Love for open source; * Team players; * Experience with LibreOffice development is a plus. Footnote: for a requirements analysis on the need for hiring developers, please refer to information on the pages 3-8 of the abandoned dev proposal: https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/qofn646Jg6bmPYB " -%<-- -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems?
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi Everyone, Casual observer here. Lot's of thoughts about the discussion over the last few months. I just wanted to share my opinion as someone who has worked in board governance before, donates, and wants to see the LibreOffice project succeed. There's obvious personal animosity between Cor/Thorsten and Paolo. You guys should look for an arbitrator immediately. It would be worth the money to do so. I don't mean a lawyer, but a professional board governance arbitrator. I'm a little concerned about how Thorsten is handling this manner as Board Chair as it seems like he's in conflict with TDF management and this is happening in a passive aggressive manner (I say this from the limited information I have). Here's some suggested reading about why board backchannels are a bad practice, and how you can make your board healthier: https://hbr.org/2019/09/back-channels-in-the-boardroom That aside; On the issue of hiring a dedicated TDF developer. There's obvious blatant interest on the part of the directors that represent Collabora and Altropia to nerf the ability of the future TDF developer to do anything that competes with their companies. I'm not sure this is aligned with the interests of the TDF and poses an interesting FOSS problem as Collabora and Altropia are clearly the largest contributors to LibreOffice code. But I'm having trouble understanding why this is such a big deal? TDF takes in 1.3 million in donations a year. You already have overhead on foundation administration. There will be maybe 1-2 developers at TDF that will be funded in the short (1-2 years) to medium (5 years) term. Even if, as Cor insinuates, Paolo has Machiavellian plans to leverage TDF developers to restart LO Online development for his own personal gain (I'm skeptical based on Occam's razor), Collabora and Altropia don't offer consumer-facing LibreOffice products (I as a consumer can't use Collabora Online unless I go through a third-party distributor). So there's no competition here. Further, surely Collabora and Altropia must realize what resources are needed to support office suite software for consumers (since they don't offer consumer products), or businesses. Customer service, SLAs, QA, etc. is not something the TDF will be able to do. Arguing over a clause in a hiring document is irrelevant when compared to the pragmatic realities of the resource constraints. You could say explicitly in the hiring document this single developer will work on an alternative to Collabra Online and it still wouldn't happen, not least because it conflicts with the new marketing strategy of Community vs. En terprise. Further, making it easier for people to screw up their installations at the office with a LO Online version and require enterprise support can only benefit the Enterprise support partners. I'm struggling to understand the short-termism of Collabora's strategy here. 1) Just pass the resolution and get donor funds working towards development. It isn't and will never be a competitive threat to Collabora/Altropia. 2) Please find a board governance arbitrator ASAP. And strongly recommend you stop using back channels in a FOSS project. It's bad practice in a private company I'm not sure why it would be considered good in a foundation that's raison d'etre is to be open and transparent. Forest through the trees people.. Best of Luck, Kevin Morris
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi, = Foreword: I here speak in my capacity as a Member of the Board of Trustees. = Why do you want brought this to the list tdf-internal for further discussion? Something that here should be hide away from now on? AFAICS until now an appropriate discussion (board-discuss!) and expression of several opinions on the subject. Best Stephan Am 04.12.22 um 00:44 schrieb Cor Nouws: Hi, I've brought this to the list tdf-internal for further discussion. Cheers, Cor Paolo Vecchi wrote on 03/12/2022 01:32: Hi all, On 02/12/2022 23:42, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi, Until someone can explain me that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem, I see this attempt from Andreas as not at all interesting. Nobody can explain to you "that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem" because it isn't and TDF doesn't do it. Now that that is sorted. Does Article 8 of our statutes sound more interesting to you? Isn't your and Thorsten's behaviour leading to think that there is a potential conflict of interests? Cheers, Cor Ciao Paolo Andreas Mantke wrote on 02/12/2022 23:38: Hi all, Am 02.12.22 um 13:52 schrieb Thorsten Behrens: +1 (thanks a lot for all the good feedback, feels great to get this moving!) this vote was done by an owner and executive director of a software company who /which have an declared interest to influence the direction of the LibreOffice development by the in-house developers. The in-house developers will remove a lot of advantage from the tendering budget and could work on parts of the code, that otherwise could be a tender in the future, on which his company might bid. Thus the voter has a non arguable Conflict of Interest on the topic of this vote. Because of this he has to abstain from this vote. His vote is null. Because of his Conflict of Interest on this topic he cannot vote and should not unduly influence the decision. The comments on this list and the attacks are very problematic. Regards, Andreas -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- Stephan Ficht, Member of the Board of Trustees Affiliation: The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi, I've brought this to the list tdf-internal for further discussion. Cheers, Cor Paolo Vecchi wrote on 03/12/2022 01:32: Hi all, On 02/12/2022 23:42, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi, Until someone can explain me that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem, I see this attempt from Andreas as not at all interesting. Nobody can explain to you "that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem" because it isn't and TDF doesn't do it. Now that that is sorted. Does Article 8 of our statutes sound more interesting to you? Isn't your and Thorsten's behaviour leading to think that there is a potential conflict of interests? Cheers, Cor Ciao Paolo Andreas Mantke wrote on 02/12/2022 23:38: Hi all, Am 02.12.22 um 13:52 schrieb Thorsten Behrens: +1 (thanks a lot for all the good feedback, feels great to get this moving!) this vote was done by an owner and executive director of a software company who /which have an declared interest to influence the direction of the LibreOffice development by the in-house developers. The in-house developers will remove a lot of advantage from the tendering budget and could work on parts of the code, that otherwise could be a tender in the future, on which his company might bid. Thus the voter has a non arguable Conflict of Interest on the topic of this vote. Because of this he has to abstain from this vote. His vote is null. Because of his Conflict of Interest on this topic he cannot vote and should not unduly influence the decision. The comments on this list and the attacks are very problematic. Regards, Andreas -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- Cor Nouws, member Board of Directors The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 mobile : +31 (0)6 25 20 7001 skype : cornouws blog: cor4office-nl.blogspot.com jabber : cor4off...@jabber.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi all, On 02/12/2022 23:42, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi, Until someone can explain me that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem, I see this attempt from Andreas as not at all interesting. Nobody can explain to you "that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem" because it isn't and TDF doesn't do it. Now that that is sorted. Does Article 8 of our statutes sound more interesting to you? Isn't your and Thorsten's behaviour leading to think that there is a potential conflict of interests? Cheers, Cor Ciao Paolo Andreas Mantke wrote on 02/12/2022 23:38: Hi all, Am 02.12.22 um 13:52 schrieb Thorsten Behrens: +1 (thanks a lot for all the good feedback, feels great to get this moving!) this vote was done by an owner and executive director of a software company who /which have an declared interest to influence the direction of the LibreOffice development by the in-house developers. The in-house developers will remove a lot of advantage from the tendering budget and could work on parts of the code, that otherwise could be a tender in the future, on which his company might bid. Thus the voter has a non arguable Conflict of Interest on the topic of this vote. Because of this he has to abstain from this vote. His vote is null. Because of his Conflict of Interest on this topic he cannot vote and should not unduly influence the decision. The comments on this list and the attacks are very problematic. Regards, Andreas -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- Paolo Vecchi - Member of the Board of Directors The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
Hi, Until someone can explain me that it is beneficial to TDF to compete with contributing members of the ecosystem, I see this attempt from Andreas as not at all interesting. Cheers, Cor Andreas Mantke wrote on 02/12/2022 23:38: Hi all, Am 02.12.22 um 13:52 schrieb Thorsten Behrens: +1 (thanks a lot for all the good feedback, feels great to get this moving!) this vote was done by an owner and executive director of a software company who /which have an declared interest to influence the direction of the LibreOffice development by the in-house developers. The in-house developers will remove a lot of advantage from the tendering budget and could work on parts of the code, that otherwise could be a tender in the future, on which his company might bid. Thus the voter has a non arguable Conflict of Interest on the topic of this vote. Because of this he has to abstain from this vote. His vote is null. Because of his Conflict of Interest on this topic he cannot vote and should not unduly influence the decision. The comments on this list and the attacks are very problematic. Regards, Andreas -- ## Free Software Advocate ## Plone add-on developer ## My blog: http://www.amantke.de/blog -- Cor Nouws, member Board of Directors The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 mobile : +31 (0)6 25 20 7001 skype : cornouws blog: cor4office-nl.blogspot.com jabber : cor4off...@jabber.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[board-discuss] Re: [VOTE] New proposal for hiring in-house developers.
+1 (thanks a lot for all the good feedback, feels great to get this moving!) Cor Nouws wrote: > Dear people, > > Thanks for the constructive feedback on the proposal. > Various changes applied, I now call a vote for the resolution below. > > Your response within 72 hours from now is much appreciated. > > Cheers, > Cor > > > -%<-- > > ## TDF Developer Hiring Resolution 2022 > > "Whereas, > > - with TDF stewarding, among other things, a well-working symbiosis of > various companies and volunteer developers inside of the LibreOffice > community; > > - given that in the current situation, there are certain areas where > extra developers can add value with additional activities, that > complement the existing contributions; > > - with this being an ongoing need; > > Therefore the board resolves that: > > - TDF will seek to hire a developer(s); > > - who will report to the ED as a regular team member, and consult weekly > with the ESC, which will oversee the technical direction of the work; > > - who will work in such a way, that both volunteer and ecosystem peers > regard them as helpful, supportive and complementing their own work; > > - for whom as the initial areas of work, the board identifies > improving RTL/CTL writing support and accessibility for LibreOffice; > as well as mentoring new volunteers in these specific areas. > After that, depending on skills available, Writer tables, Base, > general regression fixing, Draw, and Math are the next focus areas; > > - thus, there will be two job postings, with requirements matching the > initial focus areas listed above, and one or two developers will be > hired initially; > > - after 6, and after 9 months following the developers starting their > work, the board will do an assessment of the situation and results. > > Requirements for the candidates: > > * Very good C++ development skills; > * Proven experience with Accessibility and/or RTL/CTL, additional CJK > experience is a strong plus; > * Love for open source; > * Team players; > * Experience with LibreOffice development is a plus. > > Footnote: for a requirements analysis on the need for hiring > developers, please refer to information on the pages 3-8 of the > abandoned dev proposal: > https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/qofn646Jg6bmPYB " > > -%<-- > > > > > > Cor Nouws wrote on 28/11/2022 10:58: > > Hi all, > > > > As promised. After the previous draft text ended up in a dead-end, with > > apparently no compromise possible, it is time for a fresh start to get > > developers hired. > > > > The initial discussion was valuable and also informing this proposal. > > > > With the following, we suggest a new proposal, brief and positive, that > > makes clear where we stand, building on trust in the community, and > > leaves it to the board to pragmatically act, based on their task and > > responsibility to try to do the best thing for the foundation. > > > > Your feedback is much appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Cor > > > > > > -%<-- > > > > ## TDF Developer Hiring Resolution 2022 > > > > "Whereas, > > > > - with TDF stewarding, among other things, a well-working symbiosis of > > various companies and volunteer developers inside of the LibreOffice > > community; > > > > - given that in the current situation, there are certain areas where > > extra developers can add value with additional activities, that > > complement the existing contributions; > > > > - with this being an ongoing need; > > > > Therefore the board resolves that: > > > > - TDF will seek to hire a developer(s) reporting to the ESC; > > > > - who will work in such a way, that both volunteer and ecosystem peers > > regard them as helpful, supportive and complementing their own work; > > > > - for whom as the initial areas of work, the board identifies > > improving RTL/CTL writing support and accessibility for LibreOffice > > core; as well as mentoring new volunteers in these specific > > areas. After that, depending on skills available, Writer tables, > > Base, general regression fixing, Draw, and Math are the next focus > > areas; > > > > - thus, there will be two job postings, with requirements matching the > > initial focus areas listed above, and one or two developers will be > > hired initially; > > > > - after 6, and after 9 months following the developers starting their > > work, the board will do an assessment of the situation and results. > > > > Requirements for the candidates: > > > > * Very good C++ development skills; > > * Proven experience with Accessibility and/or RTL/CTL, additional CJK > > experience is a strong plus; > > * Love for open source; > > * Team players; > > * Experience with LibreOffice development is
