Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) It's all good. We get there in the end. Hopefully in a more elegant and less turgid way next time! Regards from Tom :) From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 17:30:55 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots snip / I'm amused that the point I was making has been taken on board silently; naturally I agree :-) S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi, based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on: == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. == Are there any severe objections and concerns (please no beauty corrections, only severe changes), or can we start the SC vote? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) +1 Possibly omit the middle paragraph. It would leave the statement without an explanation but at least it would state what the preference is. Regards from Tom :) From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 10:00:01 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots Hi, based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on: == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. == Are there any severe objections and concerns (please no beauty corrections, only severe changes), or can we start the SC vote? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
+1 2011/8/12 Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Hi :) +1 Possibly omit the middle paragraph. It would leave the statement without an explanation but at least it would state what the preference is. Regards from Tom :) From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 10:00:01 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots Hi, based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on: == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. == Are there any severe objections and concerns (please no beauty corrections, only severe changes), or can we start the SC vote? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Paulo de Souza Lima Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador http://www.pasl.net.br http://almalivre.wordpress.com Curitiba - PR Linux User #432358 Ubuntu User #28729 Para que as pessoas conquistem a paz em suas relações, a paz espiritual e a paz entre os povos, é preciso que antes se ganhe a batalha interna das virtudes sobre os defeitos - Talal Husseini - Filósofo Acropolitano For people to achieve peace in their relationships, spiritual peace and the peace among people, it's necessary, earlier, to win the internal battle between virtues and defects - Talal Husseini - Acropolitan Philosopher -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi Florian, On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on: I suppose the minor corrections below fall in the category of the beauty corrections you mentioned, but the SC's decision might be clearer for some people if the grammar is perfect. FWIW, I'd agree with Tom and Paulo that the second para (The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is...) serves no purpose. So that would give: Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. HTH. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) +1 Possibly omit the middle paragraph. I agree with that. The second paragraph serve no practical purpose. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
On 12 Aug 2011, at 14:48, David Nelson wrote: Hi Florian, On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on: I suppose the minor corrections below fall in the category of the beauty corrections you mentioned, but the SC's decision might be clearer for some people if the grammar is perfect. FWIW, I'd agree with Tom and Paulo that the second para (The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is...) serves no purpose. So that would give: Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. I'm amused that the point I was making has been taken on board silently; naturally I agree :-) S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi, Cor Nouws wrote on 2011-08-10 10:45: The Steering Committee notices there are discussions about a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but does not feel the need to make any advise on this and also takes no liability whatever in this matter. we cannot exclude liability. As soon as TDF issues documentation, in cases of gross negligence, the BoD will be held liable later on. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
-- Simon Phipps, http://webmink.com/ +44 774 776 2816 or +1 415 683 7660 Independent Global Open Source Expertise On 10 Aug 2011, at 09:21, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi Simon, Simon Phipps wrote on 2011-08-07 14:44: This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. I'd suggest saying: The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical risk facing software projects. not totally. IIRC, Microsoft claimed that taking screenshots will breach the EULA. Do you have a reference where? I have only seen speculative interpretation of the EULA. So, to me, although it is a lot of FUD, it is a bit different to any normal (unclaimed) risks in daily open source work. To bring this topic to an end, I tried to incorporate all changes into the following statement - thoughts welcome: == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. == Can we all live with that? I think it is a mistake to state that the SC acknowledges a risk. It is a hostage to fortune in the event of litigation, and it's not necessary to state. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a risk in a way that could NOT be fix easily quickly would be really dumb. It is an easily avoidable risk. The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are. Indeed, there was a meeting that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian. There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the perceived risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible. With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk. It also means the Documentation Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards professionally consistent documentation. The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like. By contrast the Windows Eula is very restrictive and people in the discussion even highlighted paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would make them useful for documentation would be a violation. There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could 1. Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or 2. TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was produced using non-Windows screen-shots. In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS for saving data. The TomTom devices used what 'everyone' uses for saving data. The hardware was their own, the systems were their own but they used Fat32, or Fat16 file-systems for saving their own data onto their own devices. Fat32, Fat16 or just plain Fat are 'used by everyone' for usb-sticks, memory-cards, sd-cards for cameras, phones, mobile devices, calculators and so on. Apparently we should all pay MS for the privilege of storing our own data on our own systems just in case MS suddenly decides to single us out while ignoring other people's violations. Personally on small external devices i tend to stick with ext2 or i don't even worry about the re-writes issue on older SSd tech, and use ext4. The Fat systems is notoriously flaky and even Ntfs has horrible problems that are neatly avoided in the ancient ext2 so i actually gain a lot by doing so. Occasionally i can't share data on it with insecure systems. Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid. Why ask people to beat their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner? Regards from Tom :) From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 1:07:20 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots My proposal stands :-) :-) On 8 Aug 2011, at 01:04, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) That would completely change the statement. It is the opposite of what Florian wrote. Are we going to reopen discussion about the issue again? Regards from Tom :) From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Sun, 7 August, 2011 13:44:24 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. I'd suggest saying: The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical risk facing software projects. S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi Tom, Am 08.08.2011 15:43, schrieb Tom Davies: The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are. Indeed, there was a meeting that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian. There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the perceived risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible. this was briefly mentioned during the call: the publisher of the screenshots would be at risk. So initially the risk at the indiviual who contributes the screenshot (and therefore publishes it at the wiki, a documentation collaboration site or anywhere else). If TDF makes the document an official TDF documentation (means TDF is the visible publisher) the risk is at TDF as well. With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk. Oh, who did say that ? :) E.g. no Gnu/Linux software license gives you permission to take a screenshot and redistribute this under a CC license. Of course, there would be hardly any FLOSS developer claiming that you should not do so. There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could 1. Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or 2. TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was produced using non-Windows screen-shots. Oh - imho TDF should be there to protect individuals (who actually contribute to TDF projects), not to sue them. In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS for saving data. The TomTom devices used what 'everyone' uses for saving data. The hardware was their own, the systems were their own but they used Fat32, or Fat16 file-systems for saving their own data onto their own devices. This is a completely different story, as parts of FAT are patent protected and MS is getting patent license fees from almost all implementors (so yes, even for your digicam you likey pay to MS). But .. this is getting far off-topic. regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a risk in a way that could NOT be fix easily quickly would be really dumb. It is an easily avoidable risk. I think it is unnecessary to worry about fabricated convoluted legal scenario without precedent. The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are. Did you pool the steering committee member individually ? what basis do you have to claim that just _one person_ think that this legal angle to force a POV is a strawman ? Indeed, there was a meeting that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian. There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the perceived risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible. using Linux and/or Gnu does not avoid the alleged risk. Neither own the copyright on icons that would be displayed in a screen-shoot. With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk. It also means the Documentation Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards professionally consistent documentation. Yes the 'consistent' argument is indeed valid... but the so-called legal risk is a straw man The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like. By contrast the Windows Eula is very restrictive The Eula could demand that you give away your first born child, that would still not make that the Law. actually the French version of the EULA for Windows 7 Basic, Section 27, spell out clearly that Eula does not trump the Law of the Land. and people in the discussion even highlighted paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would make them useful for documentation would be a violation. There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could 1. Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or 2. TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves Apparently we don't even need Microsoft to conduct FUD campaign, we do just fine on our own :-( The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was produced using non-Windows screen-shots. In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS for saving data. What patent do screen-shoots infringe ? And how did you get access to confidential settlement terms ? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206988-56.html : Specific financial terms were not disclosed. [snip irrelevant US-patent non-sens ] Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid. Why ask people to beat their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner? Or just easily not enocurage those that manufacture brick wall in their path. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) It's easy to make empty promises but there is nothing written down to say that the Steering Committee and BoD would accept any responsibility at all. The risk is all on individual contributors at the moment. Regards from Tom :) From: André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:31:49 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots snip / Oh - imho TDF should be there to protect individuals (who actually contribute to TDF projects), not to sue them. snip / regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) There were a reasonable amount of +1s to the first draft produced by Florian and no-one voted against it then or after the meeting. We had just heard the advice of a couple of legal people one of whom specialises in this type of area. Regards from Tom :) From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:41:05 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a risk in a way that could NOT be fix easily quickly would be really dumb. It is an easily avoidable risk. I think it is unnecessary to worry about fabricated convoluted legal scenario without precedent. The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are. Did you pool the steering committee member individually ? what basis do you have to claim that just _one person_ think that this legal angle to force a POV is a strawman ? Indeed, there was a meeting that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian. There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the perceived risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible. using Linux and/or Gnu does not avoid the alleged risk. Neither own the copyright on icons that would be displayed in a screen-shoot. With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk. It also means the Documentation Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards professionally consistent documentation. Yes the 'consistent' argument is indeed valid... but the so-called legal risk is a straw man The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like. By contrast the Windows Eula is very restrictive The Eula could demand that you give away your first born child, that would still not make that the Law. actually the French version of the EULA for Windows 7 Basic, Section 27, spell out clearly that Eula does not trump the Law of the Land. and people in the discussion even highlighted paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would make them useful for documentation would be a violation. There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could 1. Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or 2. TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves Apparently we don't even need Microsoft to conduct FUD campaign, we do just fine on our own :-( The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was produced using non-Windows screen-shots. In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS for saving data. What patent do screen-shoots infringe ? And how did you get access to confidential settlement terms ? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206988-56.html : Specific financial terms were not disclosed. [snip irrelevant US-patent non-sens ] Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid. Why ask people to beat their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner? Or just easily not enocurage those that manufacture brick wall in their path. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
:-) What is the precise issue you have with the proposed amended language, Tom? Please be specific so we aren't just appealing to the gallery here. I assert that the language I am proposing is a minor change that has the same effect as the earlier text but ensures we do not leave hostages to fortune. Are there any others sharing Tom's concern please? S. /:-) On 8 Aug 2011, at 23:59, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) There were a reasonable amount of +1s to the first draft produced by Florian and no-one voted against it then or after the meeting. We had just heard the advice of a couple of legal people one of whom specialises in this type of area. Regards from Tom :) From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:41:05 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a risk in a way that could NOT be fix easily quickly would be really dumb. It is an easily avoidable risk. I think it is unnecessary to worry about fabricated convoluted legal scenario without precedent. The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are. Did you pool the steering committee member individually ? what basis do you have to claim that just _one person_ think that this legal angle to force a POV is a strawman ? Indeed, there was a meeting that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian. There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the perceived risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible. using Linux and/or Gnu does not avoid the alleged risk. Neither own the copyright on icons that would be displayed in a screen-shoot. With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk. It also means the Documentation Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards professionally consistent documentation. Yes the 'consistent' argument is indeed valid... but the so-called legal risk is a straw man The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like. By contrast the Windows Eula is very restrictive The Eula could demand that you give away your first born child, that would still not make that the Law. actually the French version of the EULA for Windows 7 Basic, Section 27, spell out clearly that Eula does not trump the Law of the Land. and people in the discussion even highlighted paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would make them useful for documentation would be a violation. There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could 1. Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or 2. TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves Apparently we don't even need Microsoft to conduct FUD campaign, we do just fine on our own :-( The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was produced using non-Windows screen-shots. In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS for saving data. What patent do screen-shoots infringe ? And how did you get access to confidential settlement terms ? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206988-56.html : Specific financial terms were not disclosed. [snip irrelevant US-patent non-sens ] Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid. Why ask people to beat their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner? Or just easily not enocurage those that manufacture brick wall in their path. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) The precise problem i have with the amended wording is that it reverses the meaning of the 2 paragraphs. Florian did a minor adjustment but your's completely changes it to say the opposite of the original. I suspect that no-one on the SC or BoD has any legal training or experience in this area of law even for just the US let alone globally. The couple of experienced legal professionals that were able to let the list know their opinions last time are probably not thrilled with the idea of again spending time to give advice again about the same issue. Can the SC stand by a decision it made a couple of months ago or not? Should we ignore legal opinion and go with whatever seems like common sense? Regards from Tom :) From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tue, 9 August, 2011 0:06:03 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots :-) What is the precise issue you have with the proposed amended language, Tom? Please be specific so we aren't just appealing to the gallery here. I assert that the language I am proposing is a minor change that has the same effect as the earlier text but ensures we do not leave hostages to fortune. Are there any others sharing Tom's concern please? S. /:-) On 8 Aug 2011, at 23:59, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) There were a reasonable amount of +1s to the first draft produced by Florian and no-one voted against it then or after the meeting. We had just heard the advice of a couple of legal people one of whom specialises in this type of area. Regards from Tom :) From: Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 8 August, 2011 18:41:05 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) I think that unnecessarily exposing TDF (or people doing work for it) to a risk in a way that could NOT be fix easily quickly would be really dumb. It is an easily avoidable risk. I think it is unnecessary to worry about fabricated convoluted legal scenario without precedent. The fact that one person is ignorant of the risk (or chooses to ignore it) does not mean the rest of the Steering Committee are. Did you pool the steering committee member individually ? what basis do you have to claim that just _one person_ think that this legal angle to force a POV is a strawman ? Indeed, there was a meeting that came up with the rough draft of the 2 paragraphs prepared by Florian. There is still no mention of where the responsibility would lay if the perceived risk did happen but as the meeting wrote it, the potential threat should be avoided by using GnuLinux if easily possible. using Linux and/or Gnu does not avoid the alleged risk. Neither own the copyright on icons that would be displayed in a screen-shoot. With GnuLinux screen-shots there is NO risk. It also means the Documentation Team can keep doing what they are already doing = aiming towards professionally consistent documentation. Yes the 'consistent' argument is indeed valid... but the so-called legal risk is a straw man The licensing of GnuLinux tends to be copy-left allowing people to copy and adapt anything they like. By contrast the Windows Eula is very restrictive The Eula could demand that you give away your first born child, that would still not make that the Law. actually the French version of the EULA for Windows 7 Basic, Section 27, spell out clearly that Eula does not trump the Law of the Land. and people in the discussion even highlighted paragraphs that showed that any editing of screen-shots in a way that would make them useful for documentation would be a violation. There was a suggestion earlier in the discussion that if TDF did get clobbered by MS for using screen-shots on their OSes then it could 1. Let MS target individuals that produced the screen-shots or 2. TDF could counter-sue the individuals themselves Apparently we don't even need Microsoft to conduct FUD campaign, we do just fine on our own :-( The post also suggested that TDF should reject any documentation that was produced using non-Windows screen-shots. In the MS vs TomTom case. TomTom were forced to pay substantial damages to MS for saving data. What patent do screen-shoots infringe ? And how did you get access to confidential settlement terms ? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206988-56.html : Specific financial terms were not disclosed. [snip irrelevant US-patent non-sens ] Yes, everyone is exposed to a large number of unknown risks of a variety of types but this is a known risk that is easy to avoid. Why ask people to beat their head against a wall when they could just walk around the corner? Or just easily not enocurage those
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi Christoph, Christoph Noack wrote on 2011-08-06 14:57: Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. thanks for that! Honestly, I would leave out that last paragraph. This is something indeed the teams should decide, so I am not in favor of having that mentioned in an official SC decision. Let's try to keep the SC decisions as easy as possible. We could also mention that the resolution, the icon sets etc. should be decided by the teams, but I think this is out of scope for any SC decision So, would you object to leave out the third paragraph? :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi Florian, sorry if this turns out to be a discussion (here) again, but ... Am Sonntag, den 07.08.2011, 13:12 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger: Hi Christoph, Christoph Noack wrote on 2011-08-06 14:57: Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. thanks for that! Honestly, I would leave out that last paragraph. This is something indeed the teams should decide, so I am not in favor of having that mentioned in an official SC decision. Although I also think that the paragraph I've proposed looks weird from the SC point-of-view, let's try it the other way round: Is the currently proposed SC decision (the first two paragraphs) helpful for the community and the project? At least it says that each individual, all of the teams are free in their decision - which is somehow good. But: when I've summarized the issue some mails ago, I got aware that screenshots are taken across all the teams (e.g. website, marketing, documentation, development). Screenshots and videos heavily influence how we (as a project) are perceived (by e.g. customers). In this case, some (balanced) recommendation by the SC might provide guidance across the teams. Unfortunately, decisions within the individual teams are hard, across the teams close to impossible :-) Consequently, I think that the two parts: decision (use any OS) and _recommendation_ (strive for some consistency, but decide yourself how to do that) adds value in this case. Let's try to keep the SC decisions as easy as possible. We could also mention that the resolution, the icon sets etc. should be decided by the teams, but I think this is out of scope for any SC decision True. So, would you object to leave out the third paragraph? :-) At least not hard - but please keep in mind that the originally proposed SC decision causes more uncertainty and inhomogeneity than we had before. So, I think that's the last pro active mail on this topic from my side (I already can hear some relief *G*). Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. I'd suggest saying: The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical risk facing software projects. S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) That would completely change the statement. It is the opposite of what Florian wrote. Are we going to reopen discussion about the issue again? Regards from Tom :) From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Sun, 7 August, 2011 13:44:24 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. I'd suggest saying: The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical risk facing software projects. S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hello, as one of my tasks from the previous SC calls, I promised to come up with a slightly modified statement regarding the use of screenshots. Here it is: == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. == Does this reflect everyone's wishes? What I want to say is: 1. The preferred solution for screenshots is to do them with Linux, but any other operating system is acceptable as well. 2. There is a small legal risk, but we doubt it is of practical relevance. Any native speaker who wants to improve the wording, feel free, but please do not completely change the meaning. :-) The following two items have to be in that statement. I'd like to proceed to voting on the statement soon. Thanks, Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) I thought this issue had been settled with It is noted that several members of the SC acknowledge the existence of a legal risk to display screenshots of LibreOffice on Windows, but the risk is deemed low, therefore, while screenshots on GNU/Linux should be the default ones, screenshots on Windows are also possible. The new wording says the same thing in a much more professional and slick way imo. Marketing and Websites need to be able to use a different platform from Documentation due to their outputs having very different aims and lifespans. The new wording allows that. Regards from Tom :) From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Sat, 6 August, 2011 10:15:21 Subject: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots Hello, as one of my tasks from the previous SC calls, I promised to come up with a slightly modified statement regarding the use of screenshots. Here it is: == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. == Does this reflect everyone's wishes? What I want to say is: 1. The preferred solution for screenshots is to do them with Linux, but any other operating system is acceptable as well. 2. There is a small legal risk, but we doubt it is of practical relevance. Any native speaker who wants to improve the wording, feel free, but please do not completely change the meaning. :-) The following two items have to be in that statement. I'd like to proceed to voting on the statement soon. Thanks, Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots
Hi :) Well the Documentation Team selected a theme that is very similar to a theme used in Xp, like their silver one, because it gives the best contrast and readability. It's fairly clear that it's on gnulinux tho (imo). http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Production#Sample_screenshots For Marketing and Websites Teams attention-grabbing colours, activity and excitement are crucial. High contrast and readability are very very low on their lists of requirements possibly even opposite to what will work well for them. The 3rd paragraph sets teams against each other (or ignore the SC) rather than encouraging them to do their best in their opposite directions. Branding consistently across the teams is NOT trivial! I don't envy them at all in this. Regards from Tom :) From: Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Sat, 6 August, 2011 13:57:43 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] decision on screenshots Hi all, Florian - thank you for this follow up :-) Am Samstag, den 06.08.2011, 11:26 +0100 schrieb Tom Davies: Hi :) I thought this issue had been settled with It is noted that several members of the SC acknowledge the existence of a legal risk to display screenshots of LibreOffice on Windows, but the risk is deemed low, therefore, while screenshots on GNU/Linux should be the default ones, screenshots on Windows are also possible. The missing part, as David pointed out, was that only Windows has been covered. But we have also users (thus: marketing material and documentation) for Mac OS X users. However, there is one tiny thing missing (to me) in Florians draft, so I'd like to tweak it a bit. (I feel free to do so on the sc-discuss list, since I've been originally asked to summarize the status for an earlier meeting). [...] From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org [...] == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. == Does this reflect everyone's wishes? What I want to say is: 1. The preferred solution for screenshots is to do them with Linux, but any other operating system is acceptable as well. The original issue (on the different mailing lists) also contained the what visible desktop environment, what theming should be used. Defining that is (in my opinion) up to the teams, so I'd like to ask the SC to encourage the community to find a rather consistent appearance. 2. There is a small legal risk, but we doubt it is of practical relevance. Fully agreed. Any native speaker who wants to improve the wording, feel free, but please do not completely change the meaning. :-) The following two items have to be in that statement. So, only the third paragraph added ... and GNU/Linux instead of Linux. == Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system. The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but the risk is deemed low. The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency. == Being also a non-native speaker (English), I'm happy if someone could proofread this as well. Thanks! I'd like to proceed to voting on the statement soon. Hopefully today :-) Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
