Huh?
I just received three e-mails stating: --- This is the Senti-Metrics Mail Server program at host www.mccmedia.com. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Senti-Metrics Mail Server program [EMAIL PROTECTED]: mail forwarding loop for [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Each e-mail had two attachments: 1) The e-mail that was rejected, and 2) A file titled Delivery error report.dat (203 bytes). The undelivered e-mails were sent in JULY 2003. What's up? George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Huh?
The undelivered e-mails were sent in JULY 2003. What's up? George A George, sorry to be the one to inform you, but we voted you off of the island. Seriously, I also received 4 bounced messages this morning that I had sent to Nick and the list in November and December. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huh?
Sonja van Baardwijk wrote: Gary Nunn wrote: The undelivered e-mails were sent in JULY 2003. What's up? George A George, sorry to be the one to inform you, but we voted you off of the island. We did? Hmmm, why did nobody tell me? ;o) Seriously, I also received 4 bounced messages this morning that I had sent to Nick and the list in November and December. But I also just got one back dated june 10th, 2003 but apperantly received by Nick yesterday. Nick's machine is probably haunted. Either that or he is doing a spring clean. Yeah, it's haunted. I can't figure out what happened. At almost exactly 11 o'clock last night, my Inbox (imap, on our server) was suddenly empty, and it looks like everything in it was mailed out like the messages that you guys received. It sure smells like a virus, but I've checked and checked, but can't find anything. Very odd... -- Nick Arnett Director, Business Intelligence Services LiveWorld Inc. Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Huh?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Arnett Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 08:05 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Huh? Yeah, it's haunted. I can't figure out what happened. At almost exactly 11 o'clock last night, my Inbox (imap, on our server) was suddenly empty, and it looks like everything in it was mailed out like the messages that you guys received. It sure smells like a virus, but I've checked and checked, but can't find anything. I don't know, it was kinda nice. I was a little worried you were having a ghost of email past Dickensian moment, though :) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:36:25 EST I sincerely doubt that I would have a problem with it if I were born and raised a Nazi. Do you understand where I am coming from? No. There's a moral relativism at work in your statement that I can't fathom. Indeed there is. But why you can't fathom it, is something I can't quite fathom myself. It's as if you're saying that you can't choose between anything because everything is valid to the person who holds the opinion. Basically, you don't have a right to your opinion because it might somehow conflict with someone else's. It's difficult to choose between anything really. Especially since (this is merely a reiteration) I challenge any assumption sets I am presented with. However I take that proverbial step back, and direct myself the core of any issue. I mean you and I for example, could bludgeon each other with facts about many topics, but we would get nowhere. It's just a game of tag, and we're running around in circles. So I choose to seek fundamental truths hidden in anything. That is the integrity of which I speak, and I absolutely cannot approach things any other way. And in this case I seek truth, hidden in the guise of predisposed ideology, which is namely the concept of evil. I have a problem with such black white decisions made by people on this entire concept. Even beyond the typical supernatural evil, into the realm of sane and rational man-made evil, people still revert back to this dogmatic view of things. Do not deny this Tom, for it's all there on paper so to speak. And how you can so proudly state, that I'm wrong, your right, some people are unquestionably evil, some people are filth,..(it goes on and on)...just amazes me, and proves my point. You don't have to agree with me. But I would urge you to think about things, and make up your own mind, as opposed to waving the banner of predisposed ideology for all to see. Of course it's also possible that you have done this already, and have decided that the black white approach to the concept of evil holds truth for you. If that is truly the case, then I accept that, and this discussion is over. I don't however agree with that, but if you have, at the very least recognized the possibility of evil not being what you may think it is, then all is forgiven. For that is really all I was looking for. I understand people cannot be easily swayed on certain issues. -Travis _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Update (was Re: My Dad)
First, a sincere thank you to everyone for the kind words, thoughts, prayers, etc. The situation with my father has changed a bit, so here's an update. Instead of putting in the new pacemaker/defibrilator yesterday, they sent Dad home to heal up some and get stronger. They've rescheduled the new install for a month from now. I had mentioned before that they planned to have him sleep at home with a full oxygen mask (a CPAP machine, actually). This plan had to be changed. Dad's shingles outbreak includes a patch on the right side of his face, cheekbone near the nose to jawline to ear, and every CPAP mask they've tried causes him quite intense pain. So instead, he'll be sleeping with an oxygen tube under his nose (fortunately there's a space amidst his shingles that allows the tube to go across his face if they angle it just right). They have also decided to keep him on oxygen during the day. So for now he's tethered to the O2 machine in his bedroom by a 100 foot airhose, and when he wants to go further away from that he has to use a portable oxygen tank. They gave him four, each with a 6 to 8 hour supply, refillable as needed. Apparently there is some disagreement as to what exactly constitutes servicing his pacemaker. It was very thoroughly checked out at least once every six months my his cardiologist, and she had made the determination that it did not need a replacement battery yet. It will be... interesting... to see where this leads. Both Mom and Dad are in surprisingly good spirits considering everything that's going on. One of my sisters lives with them so she can keep a close watch on what's going on, and my other sister (the nurse) lives only about 5 minutes away and stops by almost daily to check up on them. So things are not quite as tight timewise for me right now, which will let me continue to participate here a bit more than I had expected, at least for the next month. Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
I had been somewhat worried about how insensitive TPotC might be, but I was planning on keeping an open mind until I saw it for myself. Then I ran across this article: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2004-02/04/11.15.film or http://makeashorterlink.com/?J5EB23F47 Gibson Cuts Passion Scene Mel Gibson, responding to focus groups as much as to protests by Jewish critics, has decided to delete a controversial scene about Jews from his film, The Passion of the Christ, a close associate told The New York Times. A scene in the film, in which the Jewish high priest Caiaphas calls down a kind of curse on the Jewish people by declaring of the Crucifixion, His blood be on us and on our children, will not be in the movie's final version, the Gibson associate, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the newspaper. The passage had been included in some versions of the film that were shown before select groups, mostly of priests and ministers, the Times reported. It didn't work in the focus screenings, the associate said. Maybe it was thought to be too hurtful, or taken not in the way it was intended. It has been used terribly over the years. Jewish leaders had warned that the passage from Matthew 27:25 was the historic source for many of the charges of deicide and Jews' collective guilt in the death of Jesus, the newspaper reported. The Passion has been the subject of fears by Jewish groups that it might incite anti-Semitism. The Passion is slated to open Feb. 25, Ash Wednesday. Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:45:06 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Now that's an interesting question. First of all, is it even possible for something to be more evil than something else? Now that is a ridiculous question! I think it is easily acceptable to state as a fact that Hitler, Pol Pot, or Saddam Hussein were all much more evil than the B#tch who dumped me 10 days before our wedding and stole 4 grand from me. Its not just a question of scale. AFAIK the B#tch never killed a single soul. The kid who tried to beat me up when I was 12 in order to in order to improve his bad ass cred just doesn't rate. There *are* greater and lesser evils. Stealing a cookie out of the cookie jar cannot compare to rape. xponent For The Record Maru rob I see where you are coming from. But it all comes down to ones own concept of evil now doesn't it? -Travis _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:39:38 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 18:52:09 -0600 Geez Travis, of course Evil is a man made concept. Are we not men? xponent It Lives Maru rob I didn't think it was that clear-cut for most people Robert. What, with some of the comments tossed about. Lets clarify then. G By religious reasoning, God made a standard for men to live by. In attempting to live up to that standard men identified gradiations between a sincere fulfillment of that agreed upon standard and outright defiance of the standard. The standard doesn't really ever change, but the gradiation between the standard and defiance of the standard does move with time and changing social views. Therefore, things that were once considered evil can become innocent, but there are some acts that will always considered evil, FREX the taking of innocent life or theft. To some extent the gradial areas far from the polar extremes are ambiguous, while the extremes are solidly set in stone. In this sense the standard and its opposite are universal, and the gradiant between the two are almost solely defined by human understanding of ones and ones enviroment. (For a secular reasoning, replace God with Society.) That being said, it is important to understand that evil does not exist independent of sentience (Or is it sapience in this case?). Nor does Good. Even in the religious sense, good and evil are constructs for thinking beings to structure their behavior around. With or without the existance of God, the concept of good and evil would still arise since there needs to be some sort of rules whenever 2 or more people are present. So, good and evil are not universal in the sense that gravitation is universal, independant of beings who are self aware, but since we do have numbers of self aware beings present , it is universal in every way that counts to us. xponent Pebble Maru rob Once again Robert, you have constructed a very relevant and poetic response. However relevant it may be though, it still buys into assumption sets. While your first paragraph, being quite anthropological, is relevant, one still needs some abstract concept of God. It's what it all hearkens back to, and I reject that. And forgive me my presumptuousness, in stating the man-made evil in a way that declared me to be the sole receptacle of that knowledge. Or perhaps more accurately, that concept. You see I admit the possibility that evil is exactly what we are told it is; I just don't believe that. I'm quite the agnostic fellow you see, and I like to think, that I think about things to such an extent, that I have seen all angles as well as I can. And when people make certain comments, that don't seem based in rationality, I get to thinking that they themselves aren't seeing the big picture. Perhaps I should give people more credit.. Then again -Travis _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
- Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ I see where you are coming from. But it all comes down to ones own concept of evil now doesn't it? Unless, of course, truth actually exists. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
In a message dated 2/4/2004 9:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone care to make a wager on whether or not Mel Gibson will portray some Jews as being against Jesus' death in the movie? I can guarantee that he has done so. We will see. It will depend on the overall characterization of the jews. It will not be enough to portray his followers (all jews) sympathetically it will depend on avoidance of what are historically defined anti-semitic stereotypes. My only concern is the way he has gone about defending himself even before there were any real questions. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
In a message dated 2/4/2004 11:27:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are you saying that Jews (All Jews? Perhaps not.) conflate Christianity (the system of beliefs based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus) with the people who profess that faith. Christians come with the same variety as Jews. Some of us are really fine people who seek to live as Jesus taught and demonstrated. Some of us are really rotten people who think that our faith is an excuse to condemn others. Please use whatever influence you may have among your Jewish friends to debunk the myth that all Christians are Jew-haters. We are not. I really hate stereotypes. I spend more time than I'd like explaining that I am a Christian, but not the vile stereotype of a condemning God Said It, I Believe It, That Settles It cardboard cut-out. But here is the problem. In the past christianity was the the state as well as the religion. In most of europe throughout the past 1500 hundred years the state and the religion persecuted and murdered jews from time to time (leaving them alone at other times went it suited their needs). Read some of the great christian thinkers. people like augustine. they are frankly anti-semitic. Augustine was against killing the jews only because he wanted them alive and miserable as a lesson to christians. In the 19th century a jewish child was kidnapped by his catholic nanny and baptised; the pope refused to return him to his parents. Pope Pious stood by while European jews were slaugthered and Italian jews were marched off to concentration camps in front of the Vatican. Jews were murdered and then kicked out of Spain kicked out of England. Starving jews were offered bread if they would convert by franciscan friers etc etc etc etc. Dreyfus was convicted of trumped up charges and the french military did not admit this until 1990 or so. These were the actions of the church and of christian states. Even now the lack of symnpathy for Israel in Europe is hard to swallow especilly when sprinkled with anti-semitic statements. Face it. The Jews have been persecuted by Christians, not all but far to many and by christian institutions. We have earned the right to be nervous about things like passion plays. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
In a message dated 2/4/2004 9:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You anti-Germanic bigot. :-) Anti-nazi. I do not hold current germans responsible ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
In a message dated 2/4/2004 9:22:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember that most of the passion plays in europe used horrific steriotypes of jews (long noses big pointy hats). Actually, I don't remember those personally. Haven't seen them myself either but read about them in Johnson's History of the Jews and Constantine's Cross. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
In a message dated 2/4/2004 9:22:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember that most of the passion plays in europe used horrific steriotypes of jews (long noses big pointy hats). Actually, I don't remember those personally. Haven't seen them myself either but read about them in Johnson's History of the Jews and Constantine's Cross. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ As I've said, Judaism teaches God can't forgive sins against people - only the person sinned against can. But, what about God forgiving David? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
But, what about God forgiving David? God can forgive sins against God, not against someone else. Only the person sinned against can forgive those (in Jewish teaching, that is). Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
- Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:45:06 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Now that's an interesting question. First of all, is it even possible for something to be more evil than something else? Now that is a ridiculous question! I think it is easily acceptable to state as a fact that Hitler, Pol Pot, or Saddam Hussein were all much more evil than the B#tch who dumped me 10 days before our wedding and stole 4 grand from me. Its not just a question of scale. AFAIK the B#tch never killed a single soul. The kid who tried to beat me up when I was 12 in order to in order to improve his bad ass cred just doesn't rate. There *are* greater and lesser evils. Stealing a cookie out of the cookie jar cannot compare to rape. xponent For The Record Maru rob I see where you are coming from. But it all comes down to ones own concept of evil now doesn't it? Well Travis...one can make up from whole cloth any kind of definition one wants to, but the problem is that there is already a fairly decent and contemporary definition for the word. My problem with the specific form of moral relativism that you seem to be wielding ATM is that you take a position so extreme that all the meaning *to* and definition *of* the concept of evil is reduced to a single point on the horizon simply because you distance yourself from the entire moral principle that defines the spectrum of behavior in that regard. Now, moral relativism is a very useful concept, but as in all things it is only useful when used moderately. Too much of it explodes the argument one tries too make into nonsense. This is exactly the same effect when one makes adamantine black and white arguments. There are just too many counterexamples that destroy such a stance. The zennish attitude that nothing really matters is the purest crock of crap in existence. Some things *do* matter. Some things *do* make a difference. And if you are gazing at your navel, you are not exploring the inner or outer universe, you are daydreaming a false dream in exactly the same false way ancient Greeks did when they thought they could deduce the nature of reality by pure reason. xponent Plato Or Socrates? Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ As I've said, Judaism teaches God can't forgive sins against people - only the person sinned against can. But, what about God forgiving David? Dan M. Or, as a better example: God's forgiveness of the city of Nineveh, over the loud protests of Jonah. Since he was a representative of the people who were wronged, why did God put him in his place and then forgive Nineveh? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 6:34 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ But, what about God forgiving David? God can forgive sins against God, not against someone else. Only the person sinned against can forgive those (in Jewish teaching, that is). My point is that God forgave David for the sin of murder. He also forgave Nineveh of the sin of genocide. I have not heard that God cannot forgive a sinner if the person sinned against refuses to being part of Judaism. How new is that? Where does it come from? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
Damon Agretto wrote: He probably means that the Essenes, who existed before Jesus was born, were essentially Christians in their beliefs and rituals. ... That's an interesting point, but I would reject them as christians since I AM working from a narrow definition, that to be a christian implies a belief in Jesus and his role as a messiah. If this is what the Fool intended in his post, I allege he was being uneccessarily vague and imprecise. Damon. I agree. But when someone says something that is obviously nonsense by your definitions, it is wise to consider that they may be using different ones. ---David I believe some Gnostic Christians identified Jesus more with the Holy Spirit, and did not believe him a literal messiah. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
- Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ Once again Robert, you have constructed a very relevant and poetic response. However relevant it may be though, it still buys into assumption sets. I used to make such arguments as you are making when I was young too. The problem with such arguments is that they can only come from a lack of experience. It is noble for the young to question authority and to question assumptions. And as you get older you tend to be less patient with arguments you discarded long long ago. So I hope you can forgive us old folks for our impatience with your anti-authoritarianism.G Especially since we do not offer authority. We offer our experience, which I don't expect you to have any more appreciation for than we did when we were young. (It pains me to find myself preaching like an old fart)G While your first paragraph, being quite anthropological, is relevant, one still needs some abstract concept of God. It's what it all hearkens back to, and I reject that. Let me spell my meaning more plainly. Morality does not prove the existence of God. But the same basic morality espoused by religion is actually a set of self-evident rules for social, sentient beings. If, there is a God, then he placed us in a universe where these truths are obtainable and created us in such a way that we require these truths as a part of our social structure. If, there is no God, then we evolved in a universe where these truths are self-evident and our nature is such that we require these truths as a part of our social structure. I don't see any discrepency with either view of reality since reality *is* what it *is*. And forgive me my presumptuousness, in stating the man-made evil in a way that declared me to be the sole receptacle of that knowledge. There is the tendency for each of us to ride our own subjective beasts. Or perhaps more accurately, that concept. You see I admit the possibility that evil is exactly what we are told it is; I just don't believe that. I'm quite the agnostic fellow you see, and I like to think, that I think about things to such an extent, that I have seen all angles as well as I can. And when people make certain comments, that don't seem based in rationality, I get to thinking that they themselves aren't seeing the big picture. Perhaps I should give people more credit.. Then again There is a very human tendency also to believe we are the sole soul existing in a world of automatons. One of the more difficult lessons in life is to find the soul in another. Especially if the other is somehow in opposition to you. xponent Soul Warrior Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
On 6 Feb 2004, at 1:27 am, Dan Minette wrote: My point is that God forgave David for the sin of murder. He also forgave Nineveh of the sin of genocide. I have not heard that God cannot forgive a sinner if the person sinned against refuses to being part of Judaism. How new is that? Where does it come from? Since when did religion have to make sense? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A bad thing done for a good cause is still a bad thing. It's why so few people slap their political opponents. That, and because slapping looks so silly. - Randy Cohen. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
I agree. But when someone says something that is obviously nonsense by your definitions, it is wise to consider that they may be using different ones. Yes, I had considered that too; but that's why I asked the Fool to present his evidence and substantiate his claim. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Good and evil (was Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's ThePassion of the Christ)
John D. Giorgis wrote: At 07:51 AM 2/4/2004 -0800 Nick Arnett wrote: Proof? I think it is self-evident that treating important issues as black and white is bad. Did you truly mean to say that? The above is hardly self-evident to me.Indeed, I think that almost by definition, those few issues that happen to be black-and-white tend to be the most important. If everyone saw them the same way, they would not be issues since there would be little contention. Please accept that good people can disagree with you on your black-and-white issues, and that like it or not, compromise is the best solution, which happens to be gray. What you say is true, about you. The contentious issues that one sees in black-and-white are those where one is prepared to fight the hardest. ---David It is bad. The world is usually not simply black-or-white, and it is simple-minded to pretend that there is no middle ground. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
At 04:46 PM 2/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/4/2004 9:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You anti-Germanic bigot. :-) Anti-nazi. I do not hold current germans responsible But it is interesting to note how your own statements can get you in trouble in this regard The holocaust is another matter. The germans who did this (and there can be no doubt that the germans did this) Perhaps there is a lesson here? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
At 05:42 PM 2/5/2004 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is, I think Christians should be willing to face up to what was done in their name in the past and try to show some understanding for Jewish suspicions. I would argue that John Paul II has done precisely that. We never deserved what happened to us, and yet it happened anyway, and you can't simply wish that away or lecture us to be forgiving and forgetful. Uh-uh, sorry. Doesn't work that way. Want forgiveness? Act like you mean it. Help us fight the evil, don't pretend it's not there or bore us with nostrums about, oh, that's all in the past, can we all get along? From where I'm sitting, from where most Jews sit, we're not sure. Sorry if that pisses you off, but that's the way it is. But isn't judging all Christians as a class exactly the sort of class-based thinking that Jews of all people should explicitly reject? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
At 12:22 PM 2/5/2004 -0600 Reggie Bautista wrote: Gibson Cuts Passion Scene Mel Gibson, responding to focus groups as much as to protests by Jewish critics, has decided to delete a controversial scene about Jews from his film, The Passion of the Christ, a close associate told The New York Times. A scene in the film, in which the Jewish high priest Caiaphas calls down a kind of curse on the Jewish people by declaring of the Crucifixion, His blood be on us and on our children, will not be in the movie's final version, the Gibson associate, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the newspaper. Out of curiosity, does anyone here consider this to be a positive development? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
I would argue that John Paul II has done precisely that. To a large extent, yes. Certainly more than any major Christian leader before him (well, Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI also did a lot). Still a long way to go, though. But isn't judging all Christians as a class exactly the sort of class-based thinking that Jews of all people should explicitly reject? I've said that I don't blame all Christians for Christian anti-Semitism, or at least that I try not to. Suspicion and resentment are not exactly the same as blame. But even if I do, or even if other Jews do, is it so hard to understand why? I'm trying not to play victim here, since I personally have experienced also no anti-Semitism myself. Most of the Christian friends I've had in my lifetime have been just that - friends. They accept me for who and what I am, just as I accept them for who and what they are. To the extent that I have been writing on this issue here recently, it's out of a very strong feeling for what other Jews have gone through, and an understanding that that COULD have been me - and in different times and places very well MIGHT have been me. America has been good to the Jews (and vice-versa), and I don't really think that this is likely to change much, even if Gibson's movie breaks records. But there is always nervousness among Jews, and if we judge Christians harshly, that's hardly of the same consequence as Christian anti-Semitism or Nazi extermination. Again, my point is, if Christians truly want to demonstrate that they understand why Jews are suspicious, if they truly want to prove that they pose no threat, it's easy to do so. John-Paul HAS begun to lead the way, and many other Christians have done likewise. And you don't have to let Mel Gibson speak for you, or leave it to Jews to point out the inherent dangers in basing a popular entertainment on an uncritical and ahistorical adaptation of the Gospels. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reviews for Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ
At 07:25 PM 2/5/04, Robert Seeberger wrote: (It pains me to find myself preaching like an old fart) I hear that products like Bean-O or Gas-X can help you with that problem . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
