Re: Religious fundamentalist hired at Cambridge to teach science
On 7/26/07, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby072507.php3 Wow, that was a stupid article. By the way, the hyperlink means you don't have to quote the whole article. That's what it's there for. Martin ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Just in case there wasn't enough bad NASA news Thursday . . .
A former NASA employee is accused of stealing more than $150,000 from government coffers, according to a report released Thursday. http://www.local6.com/technology/13763532/detail.html -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Dave Land wrote: Religious Concepts Promote Cooperation Effect seems to work regardless of a person's beliefs. The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. contrarian You still have to prove that _cooperation_ is beneficial to humankind. Maybe fierce ruthless competition is better :-P /contrarian Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Folks, From Nature: Religious Concepts Promote Cooperation Effect seems to work regardless of a person's beliefs. A belief in God may have promoted the evolution of cooperative behaviour, say Canadian psychologists. They found that priming people with religious concepts makes them more generous — regardless of whether they declare themselves to be believers. Notions of civic responsibility also promote cooperation, suggesting that religion might encourage altruism by invoking an omniscient judge of behaviour. More at http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070723/full/070723-6.html The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. If it is a delusion, it is a pro-social delusion. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
Dave said: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. So is your position that religions are useful rather than true? Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Perspective Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Invest in a company any idiot can run because sooner or later any idiot is going to run it. - Warren Buffet ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
I totally disagree with the statement that belief in God promoted the evolution of cooperation. I think natural inclinations of socialization and the fact that humans are more successful as a group is what did the trick... Although the statement could have just been bad journalistic writing... Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Trumpeter's Marder I auf GW 38(h) Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. -Original Message- From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:44:13 To:Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged Folks, From Nature: Religious Concepts Promote Cooperation Effect seems to work regardless of a person's beliefs. A belief in God may have promoted the evolution of cooperative behaviour, say Canadian psychologists. They found that priming people with religious concepts makes them more generous — regardless of whether they declare themselves to be believers. Notions of civic responsibility also promote cooperation, suggesting that religion might encourage altruism by invoking an omniscient judge of behaviour. More at http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070723/full/070723-6.html The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. If it is a delusion, it is a pro-social delusion. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:06 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Depends on how fscked-up the society is, perhaps. They're only lies to those who narrowly equate truth with factuality. But there I go again, being nuanced, damned Liberal that I am. Perhaps they are not so much blatant lies as feelings and unprovable -- and, of course, un-disprovable -- ideas that ennoble us. The article was very clear that it didn't matter that the subjects of the experiment actually believed the religious ideas, only that they were primed with them or the beneficial effects of generosity and cooperation to kick in. It's closer to the AA idea of a higher power (even if your higher power is a salt shaker) -- not necessarily something that you think _is_ God, but something that takes you outside yourself, helps you experience IAAMOAC. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: High flight . . .
Nick Arnett wrote On 7/26/07, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Astronauts were allowed to fly after flight surgeons and other astronauts warned they were so drunk they posed a flight-safety risk on at least two occasions, an aviation weekly reported Thursday. The legal blood alcohol limit for operating an aircraft is ZERO, unless the law has changed since I got my license. Rules like 12 hours bottle to throttle are nothing more than guidelines... training materials emphasis that it is still possible to have a measurable blood alcohol level after eight or 12 hours if you've had a lot to drink. My personal policy was 24 hours when I was flying, even for just one drink. It is an activity that tends to require maximum performance occasionally. Hopefully these guys were not the actual pilots of the Shuttle. Maybe they were the mission specialists who probably don't have a LOT to do during takeoff (unless of course, there's a serious emergency). Or is that too much to hope for... - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Jul 27, 2007, at 2:59 AM, Richard Baker wrote: Dave said: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. So is your position that religions are useful rather than true? Like much of what I believe, it's a little of each. There's an old saw about the priest who says that the Bible is true ... and some of it happened. Truth and factuality _intersect_ without necessarily being the same thing. They are congruent, but not necessarily identical. Myths encapsulate truth, even though the events in them did not necessarily happen. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fwd: Blast at desert spaceport kills 2, injures 4
On 26 Jul 2007 at 20:40, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/26/spaceport.blast/index.html?eref=rss_topstories LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- An explosion at an airport home to Scaled Composites -- the builder of the first private manned rocket to reach space -- killed two people and left four seriously hurt Thursday, a Kern County Fire Department official says. Same day they find sabotage at NASA? Interesting. In the Chinese curse sense of the word. AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 27 Jul 2007, at 18:52, Dave Land wrote: On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:06 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Depends on how fscked-up the society is, perhaps. They're only lies to those who narrowly equate truth with factuality. But there I go again, being nuanced, damned Liberal that I am. I think the difference between fact and fiction is pretty clear. People get annoyed when fiction is presented as fact - the latest brouhaha about a phoney autobiography proves that. I like a good story but I don't like being lied to. Clear Cut Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the difference between fact and fiction is pretty clear. I don't think anybody is arguing about that. We're talking about the relationship among facts, fiction and truth. A fictional story can contain truths. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush is fiction to anybody who hasn't hunted birds, but it still contains a true, though generalized, statement. The kinds of truth contained in made-up stories are generalized truths, the kind of thing that becomes common sense. Wouldn't you agree that there are significant truths contain in David Brin's fiction? Truths about the nature of people and technology? Earth was prescient -- it was telling truths about privacy and technology that hadn't come about yet! One could argue that it communicated those true idea even better than his non-fiction book did. It certainly sold more... ;-) Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: One in five
William T Goodall wrote Dr. Miller's data reveal some yawning gaps in basic knowledge. American adults in general do not understand what molecules are (other than that they are really small). Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity. Only about 10 percent know what radiation is. One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth, an idea science had abandoned by the 17th century. I was rereading this message and this reminded me of something that happened at my daughter's school. They were having a science day with the theme of astronomy. Parents would come in and give short prepared presentations in different classrooms as the kids would move from class to class. My wife volunteered and was given some information on eclipses. Part of it stated that while a solar eclipse occurred when the moon came between the Sun and the Earth, a lunar eclipse occurred when the Sun came between the Earth and the Moon. Even after she pointed it out to the teacher responsible for the materials, the teacher said it was correct. That was very scary. - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is Destructive and Must Be Discouraged
The ends justify the means eh? Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Perspective Maru The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. You still have to prove that _cooperation_ is beneficial to humankind. Maybe fierce ruthless competition is better :-P /contrarian Alberto Monteiro religion in it's purest form as an ethical model for society is an ideal that has yet to be realized. religion tends towards dogmatic morality rather than pragmatic models. compare the golden rule to the ten commandments. as for competition versus cooperative models; they both have their flaws and advantages. better to take the best of both, and disregard the rest... jonsan Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. Perhaps if it takes blatant lies to make a society function smoothly then there is something fundamentally wrong with the society? Depends on how fscked-up the society is, perhaps. They're only lies to those who narrowly equate truth with factuality. But there I go again, being nuanced, damned Liberal that I am. Perhaps they are not so much blatant lies as feelings and unprovable -- and, of course, un-disprovable -- ideas that ennoble us. The article was very clear that it didn't matter that the subjects of the experiment actually believed the religious ideas, only that they were primed with them or the beneficial effects of generosity and cooperation to kick in. It's closer to the AA idea of a higher power (even if your higher power is a salt shaker) -- not necessarily something that you think _is_ God, but something that takes you outside yourself, helps you experience IAAMOAC. Dave Land/William T Goodall The concept of a higher power and the 12 steps are preferable to jaysus and the top ten (commandments) but they still rely on faith, to some extent. i believe in the big bang theory of creation, and the laws of thermodynamics. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse...You cannot post Thou Shalt Not Steal Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Lie in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians -- it creates a hostile work environment Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive and Must Be Discouraged
On 7/27/07, jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: religion in it's purest form as an ethical model for society is an ideal that has yet to be realized. religion tends towards dogmatic morality rather than pragmatic models. compare the golden rule to the ten commandments. So are you saying that the ten commandments are religious and dogmatic, but the golden rule is secular and pragmatic? Perhaps you aren't aware that the most commonly quoted version of the golden rule comes from the Christian Bible. Matthew 7:12 says, in part, Do to others what you would have them do to you. Check biblegateway.com for your favorite translation. In fact, Christianity is not alone in this sentiment. See http://www.unification.net/ws/theme015.htm for several examples from Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Jainism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the beliefs of the Yoruba of Nigeria. Not all religions or religious subgroups are dogmatic, and in fact many are very pragmatic. Just google Deism for a good example. The mistake you are making is that you are looking at extremist fundamentalist literalist Christianity and thinking that all Christians believe that way. It's just the same as looking at extremist fundamentalist Islamists and assuming all Islamists are like them. Surely you've been on brin-l long enough to know better, in both cases. -- Mauro Diotallevi Hey, Harry, you haven't done anything useful for a while -- you be the god of jello now. -- Patricia Wrede, 8/16/2006 on rasfc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
On 7/27/07, jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i believe in the big bang theory of creation, and the laws of thermodynamics. As do many religious folk. Many Christians will tell you that the book of Genesis is all metaphor. Some even believe that the entire Christian Bible is metaphor. But very useful metaphor. Unitarian Universalists would be the extreme example. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse...You cannot post Thou Shalt Not Steal Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Lie in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians -- it creates a hostile work environment As a code of laws, the ten commandments are pretty clear, simple, and direct. I don't believe in posting them in a courthouse, but I don't think they are a bad set of rules in general. I might leave out the first two or three, depend on how you count them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Division_of_the_commandments But having a regular day of rest, not killing anybody, being respectful, not stealing or lying, etc. seem like pretty reasonable ideas to me. -- Mauro Diotallevi Hey, Harry, you haven't done anything useful for a while -- you be the god of jello now. -- Patricia Wrede, 8/16/2006 on rasfc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: High flight . . .
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/26/07, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Astronauts were allowed to fly after flight surgeons and other astronauts warned they were so drunk they posed a flight-safety risk on at least two occasions, an aviation weekly reported Thursday. The legal blood alcohol limit for operating an aircraft is ZERO, unless the law has changed since I got my license. Rules like 12 hours bottle to throttle are nothing more than guidelines... training materials emphasis that it is still possible to have a measurable blood alcohol level after eight or 12 hours if you've had a lot to drink. My personal policy was 24 hours when I was flying, even for just one drink. It is an activity that tends to require maximum performance occasionally. In addition to the slowed reflexes that we're all familiar with, alcohol is very bad for your night vision. Flying at night and drinking is an especially bad combination. I understand that almost all space flights involve some night flying... :-) If it wasn't a pilot, how much of a problem is it? If it's someone not expected to actually operate the thing, how much of a problem is it? I'd rather have a margarita in me if I'm going to be shot up into space, myself. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive and Must Be Discouraged
On 7/27/07, jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as for competition versus cooperative models; they both have their flaws and advantages. better to take the best of both, and disregard the rest... My opinion is that it is ridiculous to imagine that either competition or cooperation can take place alone. There is no pure competition; nothing that is alive exists unless there is the kind of cooperation that life requires (I am proof that my parents cooperated). There is no pure cooperation; some resources are always scarce, so we inevitably compete for them (stop using MY oxygen!). Rules evolve or come about intentionally -- cooperation -- to create the spheres in which we compete. To Alberto's idea that Dave has to prove the cooperation is beneficial to humanity... what, are you kidding? Look around you. Unless everything you see is your own creation, you have benefitted from cooperation. And I'm fairly certainly that you didn't plan or build othis Internet we're using. Which reminds me of a joke. Satan tells God that it's no big deal to create humans out of dust. I could do that, he says. Okay, God replies, Go ahead. So Satan reaches down for a handful of dust. No, no, says God. You have to start with your own dust. The preceding story is probably not factual, but there's truth in it. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: High flight . . .
On 7/27/07, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it wasn't a pilot, how much of a problem is it? If it's someone not expected to actually operate the thing, how much of a problem is it? I'd rather have a margarita in me if I'm going to be shot up into space, myself. Perhaps just a PR problem... although it just seems like a bad environment in which to be even slightly impaired. Apparently there are some very thin walls in the space station... a bit of clumsiness and oops, there goes the air? Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Personal: Why it Must Be Tolerated
Howdy, On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:18 PM, jon louis mann wrote: The concept of a higher power and the 12 steps are preferable to jaysus and the top ten (commandments) but they still rely on faith, to some extent. i believe in the big bang theory of creation, and the laws of thermodynamics. In the narrow confines of this thread, I suppose if your belief in those factual truths leads you to be a more compassionate, generous person, then they serve as your religion, and more (higher) power to you! THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse...You cannot post Thou Shalt Not Steal Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Lie in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians -- it creates a hostile work environment. I've shared this with two of my coworkers already today while discussing how I'll arrange my work schedule around jury duty :-). Thanks for a laugh, Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:38 PM, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On 7/27/07, jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i believe in the big bang theory of creation, and the laws of thermodynamics. As do many religious folk. Many Christians will tell you that the book of Genesis is all metaphor. Some even believe that the entire Christian Bible is metaphor. But very useful metaphor. Unitarian Universalists would be the extreme example. Amen, Brother! I am very nearly one of those Christians. The Bible may very well be a human product that tells us what certain groups of very, very opinionated people thought about God, but I believe it tells us only a little about what God may think. If, in fact, God exists and is sentient in any fashion that we would recognize. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
On 27 Jul 2007 at 17:38, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: As a code of laws, the ten commandments are pretty clear, simple, and direct. I don't believe in posting them in a courthouse, but I don't think they are a bad set of rules in general. I might leave out the first two or three, depend on how you count them. And the Noahide Laws? AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is (generally) Destructive and Must Be Discouraged
religion in it's purest form as an ethical model for society is an ideal that has yet to be realized. religion tends towards dogmatic morality rather than pragmatic models. compare the golden rule to the ten commandments. So are you saying that the ten commandments are religious and dogmatic, but the golden rule is secular and pragmatic? what i really mean to say is that some religious rules are practical and some are not. the same for secular parameters. there are exceptions to most rules, however. Perhaps you aren't aware that the most commonly quoted version of the golden rule comes from the Christian Bible. Matthew 7:12 says, in part, Do to others what you would have them do to you. Check biblegateway.com for your favorite translation. In fact, Christianity is not alone in this sentiment. See http://www.unification.net/ws/theme015.htm for several examples from Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Jainism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the beliefs of the Yoruba of Nigeria. i never said the golden rule originated with jesus in the sermon on the mount. Not all religions or religious subgroups are dogmatic, and in fact many are very pragmatic. Just google Deism for a good example. The mistake you are making is that you are looking at extremist fundamentalist literalist Christianity and thinking that all Christians believe that way. It's just the same as looking at extremist fundamentalist Islamics and assuming all Islamics are like them. Surely you've been on brin-l long enough to know better, in both cases. Mauro Diotallevi sorry if i gave that impression, mauro. i've been a lurker on brinlist until recently, and i should know better than to make general statements. i certainly do not intend to give the impr]ession that fundamentalist extremists and literalist fanatics represent the dominant judaeo/christian/islamic tradition. i do believe that some of religions' purest ideals are practical ethical models, including the golden rule (which is not just found in western biblical sources). i also believe that deism and some of the eastern philosophies are far superior to most rigid theocratic faiths. i just find it hard to believe in an infinite, eternal, omnipotent, cosmic consciousness, or in spiritual, supernatural, or divine, corporeal beings that play a role in some universal, teleological purpose behind existence.. as an atheist my faith is based on the strong belief that there ain't no such thang as the deity, life after death, reincarnation, immaculate conception, original sin, etc. Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: One in five
At 04:39 PM Friday 7/27/2007, Horn, John wrote: William T Goodall wrote Dr. Miller's data reveal some yawning gaps in basic knowledge. American adults in general do not understand what molecules are (other than that they are really small). Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity. Only about 10 percent know what radiation is. One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth, an idea science had abandoned by the 17th century. I was rereading this message and this reminded me of something that happened at my daughter's school. They were having a science day with the theme of astronomy. Parents would come in and give short prepared presentations in different classrooms as the kids would move from class to class. My wife volunteered and was given some information on eclipses. Part of it stated that while a solar eclipse occurred when the moon came between the Sun and the Earth, a lunar eclipse occurred when the Sun came between the Earth and the Moon. Even after she pointed it out to the teacher responsible for the materials, the teacher said it was correct. That was very scary. - jmh Ah, more knowledge from _Science Made Stupid_: http://www.besse.at/sms/universe.html Scroll to the bottom of the page. (The print version has illustrations of the three events which are missing from the on-line version.) -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
As a code of laws, the ten commandments are pretty clear, simple, and direct. I don't believe in posting them in a courthouse, but I don't think they are a bad set of rules in general. I might leave out the first two or three, depend on how you count them. AndrewC Dawn Falcon i might leave in respect your parents (if they deserve it) and thou shalt not murder, steal or lie (for the most part. i am okay with some restrictions on fornication with the neighbor's wife (unless it is an open, group, or line marriage). premarital sex is okay, except with minors, or non consensual adults and animals. i also can subscribe to not coveting things that don't belong to you, and i am against excessive, materialistic greed. idolatry is okay if you don't proselytize and force your faith on others. what are the Noahide Laws, something to do with bestiality?~) jonsan Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
As do many religious folk. Many Christians will tell you that Genesis is all metaphor. Some even believe the Christian Bible is metaphor. But very useful metaphor. Unitarian Universalists would be the extreme example. (sic) Amen, Brother! I am very nearly one of those Christians. The Bible may very well be a human product that tells us what certain groups of very, very opinionated people thought about God, but I believe it tells us only a little about what God may think. If, in fact, God exists and is sentient in any fashion that we would recognize. Dave sounds to me, brother, that you are a CINO (christian in name only). the bible as metaphor argument smacks to me as lacking commitment, perhaps, or straddling on the fence? dave, you seem less metaphorical? perhaps a metaphysical christian, or just a plain mystic? Knowledge is Power Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
High in Space . . .
If it wasn't a pilot, how much of a problem is it? If it's someone not expected to actually operate the thing, how much of a problem is it? I'd rather have a margarita if I'm going to be shot up into space, myself. Julia Perhaps just a PR problem... although it just seems like a bad environment in which to be even slightly impaired. Apparently there are some very thin walls in the space station... a bit of clumsiness and oops, there goes the air? Nick one margarita shouldn't hurt, and might sooth julia's nerves. if it was me, i's like to drop acid (as long as i didn't have to fly the damn thing!~) it would be a truly cosmic experiment and i might even encounter gawd!~) jonsan Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mailp=graduation+giftscs=bz ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religion is Destructive and Must Be Discouraged
The concept of a higher power and the 12 steps are preferable to jaysus and the top ten (commandments) but they still rely on faith, to some extent. i believe in the big bang theory of creation, and the laws of thermodynamics. In the narrow confines of this thread, I suppose if your belief in those factual truths leads you to be a more compassionate, generous person, then they serve as your religion, and more (higher) power to you! Thanks for a laugh, Dave hell no! (pun intended) i ain't no nice guy larry underwood... as for competition versus cooperative models; they both have their flaws and advantages. better to take the best of both, and disregard the rest... My opinion is that neither competition or cooperation can take place alone. (sic) my point, exactly.. Rules evolve or come about intentionally -- cooperation -- to create the spheres in which we compete. but some rules benefit those who make the rules... i agree that many do benefit from cooperation, some more than others. The same thing applies to competition. my sneakers are cheap because of some poor sucker in indonesia. cool joke, nick... that's enough from me today!~) jonsan Satan tells God that it's no big deal to create humans out of dust. I could do that, he says. Okay, God replies, Go ahead. So Satan reaches down for a handful of dust. No, no, says God. You have to start with your own dust. Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Dave Land wrote: On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:06 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 27 Jul 2007, at 10:44, Dave Land wrote: The point being that religion -- whether you consider it the core of your being or a mental illness, is beneficial to humankind. The ends justify the means eh? Not exactly the ends justify the means, no, but a recognition that pure reason may not be sufficient to the task, that we may be wired to respond to more than mere facts. We are not all equally wired. So generalizing something from one person's wiring may lead to faulty logic when trying to figure out how someone else's brain works. Just sayin'. (And some people are closer to being wired to respond only to facts than others.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On Jul 27, 2007, at 4:28 PM, jon louis mann wrote: Amen, Brother! I am very nearly one of those Christians. The Bible may very well be a human product that tells us what certain groups of very, very opinionated people thought about God, but I believe it tells us only a little about what God may think. If, in fact, God exists and is sentient in any fashion that we would recognize. Dave sounds to me, brother, that you are a CINO (christian in name only). the bible as metaphor argument smacks to me as lacking commitment, perhaps, or straddling on the fence? dave, you seem less metaphorical? perhaps a metaphysical christian, or just a plain mystic? Probably. I have a hard time getting a handle on what people mean when they call themselves or others mystics... As for the CINO label, I am reasonably certain that no small number of today's American Christians would concur with that assessment. I am a member of a Methodist congregation in California, led by two pastors educated at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, which is about as far to the liberal end of the spectrum as you can get and still call yourself a Christian. I think that Jesus was a man uniquely connected with the divine (to pick a phrase that wildly liberal teachers like Spong and Borg use to avoid all the freight that comes with God), who so radiated that connection that none who came in contact with him could fail to notice it and be moved by it. Some of them, trying to explain the ineffable numinous experience of being with him, inevitably used metaphors that others took literally. Perhaps even It's as if he wasn't even born the way normal men are, he's so different. Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Dave Christic Mystian Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 27 Jul 2007, at 22:21, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the difference between fact and fiction is pretty clear. I don't think anybody is arguing about that. Proponents of religion always seem to be. We're talking about the relationship among facts, fiction and truth. A fictional story can contain truths. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush is fiction to anybody who hasn't hunted birds, but it still contains a true, though generalized, statement. The kinds of truth contained in made-up stories are generalized truths, the kind of thing that becomes common sense. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the fact that religions present their stories as being actually true rather than entertaining stories that may contain some truth (and some wacko ideas best ignored.) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who study history are doomed to repeat it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
On 28 Jul 2007, at 01:01, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Bible may very well be a human product that tells us what certain groups of very, very opinionated people thought about God, but I believe it tells us only a little about what God may think. The idea that we can think as God does is hubris... As you say, if it even makes sense to talk about it, God's ideas are too big to fit in my little head, I find it helpful to believe. Helpful because it tends to keep me from acting as if I am God and able to control everything, as if I knew how things should be. Then what's the point of religion? Let's follow Wittgenstein and be silent on the stuff we can't speak about. If it doesn't make any sense then what's the sense Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without bricks tied to its head. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
Nick Arnett wrote: The idea that we can think as God does is hubris... No, it's not. Either God does not exist, and there is no such thing as hubris, or he created us with the tendency to think about what he does, so we are just obeying his orders :-P Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: High in Space . . .
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, jon louis mann wrote: If it wasn't a pilot, how much of a problem is it? If it's someone not expected to actually operate the thing, how much of a problem is it? I'd rather have a margarita if I'm going to be shot up into space, myself. Julia Perhaps just a PR problem... although it just seems like a bad environment in which to be even slightly impaired. Apparently there are some very thin walls in the space station... a bit of clumsiness and oops, there goes the air? Nick one margarita shouldn't hurt, and might sooth julia's nerves. if it was me, i's like to drop acid (as long as i didn't have to fly the damn thing!~) it would be a truly cosmic experiment and i might even encounter gawd!~) jonsan You haven't seen me having consumed one of my friend Tanya's margaritas. Then again, no one has -- I was so drunk before I even got to the end of it, I dropped the glass. (Recipe is 1 part freshly-squeezed lime juice, 1 part tequila (I prefer Patron Silver) and 1 part orange liqueur. And she mixes pitchers of the stuff.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Destructive: Why it Must Be Discouraged
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: Then what's the point of religion? Let's follow Wittgenstein and be silent on the stuff we can't speak about. And let's NOT follow Wittgenstein's example of picking up pokers during discussions where the action might be misinterpreted. ( http://community.livejournal.com/loltheorists/tag/wittgenstein if anyone wants it) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On 7/27/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Um, doesn't it have to do the way that Christ walked, not the way Christians walk? Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Interesting: Why it Must Be Discussed
On Jul 27, 2007, at 8:37 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: On 7/27/07, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I call myself a Christian because I haven't invested the time to come up with a better label, but as Christianity walks one way and I walk another, the time for coming up with a better label may be upon me soon. Um, doesn't it have to do the way that Christ walked, not the way Christians walk? If I could walk like that, I wouldn't need talcum powder. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
