Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
On 08/07/2010, at 9:26 AM, Dan Minette wrote: ...which makes ond feel worthy, satisfied... happy? It's impossible to separate self-interest from that too. Frankly, everyone does things for self-interest, even altruism... Metaphysical presuppositions about experiences you have never had or will ever have stated as a priori truth? My my. See, what's really funny, I _know_ how I felt when I accepted a young homeless woman to stay in my house. Scared and lousy. But, I'm sure you don't believe me, and I know I cannot prove how I feel empirically. No, I believe you. I was just tweaking. And don't ever assume you know what experiences others have had or will have, it's unpleasantly arroganty But also, just 'cause something is hard doesn't mean you're not doing it for self-interest, even if that self-interest is living up to an artificial set of values, whatever they may be. Charlie ...who has been homeless. Actually properly homeless. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
Dave Land wrote: Anyway, I had time to read the full NYMag article this evening, and the author is very aware of the fact that it's not a simple matter of pleasurable activities vs. parenting: I think this boils down to a philosophical question, rather than a psychological one, says Gilovich. Should you value moment-to-moment happiness more than retrospective evaluations of your life? I took the time to read the article in its entirety as well. I found the following quote to be the most telling: Children may provide unrivaled moments of joy. But they also provide unrivaled moments of frustration, tedium, anxiety, heartbreak. In my experience - especially with my eldest scion in the throes of early adolescence and all that implies - that pair of sentences pretty much sums it up. In fairness to WTG, while he has his usual axes to grind, some people are frankly not suited to parenting. And if they're aware of that and act accordingly, it's probably a good thing. It's worse, in my mind, to see people who clearly have no idea what they're doing attempting to raise children and getting it repeatedly wrong. On thing the article doesn't seem touch on, particularly in light of how it indicates single parents are worse off, is how much children can be a source of friction in their parents' relationship. It can be hard to be on the same page vis a vis the rules and regulations of your household at all times, and *that* can create some unforeseen problems, IMO. For example, I wish I'd had a camera to take a picture of my wife's face when my aforementioned eldest asked if she could get her hair dyed purple and I said I don't see why not. I believe in picking my battles. :-) Jim Sharkey Will you please stop bothering your sister Maru___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:54 PM, David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: And yet, it's very rewarding. I guess I'd boil it down to one sentence as Children give one's life meaning. And very large cell phone bills. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Jim Sharkey templar...@excite.com wrote: Jim Sharkey snippage Will you please stop bothering your sister Maru But she started it first, and anyway, you always take her side! john stuck with TWO younger sisters Maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
If I may put in my .02 worth... The big pay off to having children, IMO, is...GRANDchildren. What's that quote? If I'd have known having Grandchildren was so much fun, I would have done it first --unknown. I always knew I wanted to have kids, what I didn't know when I was 26 and had the first one is how big a job it turned out to be, purple (and green and orange) hair and all. I also always knew I wanted to be a Nana, but I didn't know how much in love I'd be with my Grandchildren. It's also quite a bit of fun to watch our daughter putting all that time and energy into child raising and appreciate what we did for her when she was young. I adore the process of watching my family evolve over time. Amities, Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Having kids is social security (was Re: Having kids makes you unhappy)
Seems to me that it would be good here to step outside of the developed world and recognize that when people have no safety net, having children is a form of social security - someone to take care of them when they are old. It has been surprising to me when Americans in the midst of a place like the slums of Mexico or in Haiti wonder why people are having so many children and assume that given birth control supplies, they would stop. Many won't. This isn't even entirely self-centered. When people live in a highly interdependent community, as virtually every extremely poor community is, they are expected to contribute to everyone's welfare... and one of the ways you can contribute is to have children. In Haiti, we had a teenage girl who was very happy to find out she was pregnant. She said her boyfriend would be also - because they wanted to have at least one child before the next earthquake kills them. That really got to many of our team members. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:03 AM, Jim Sharkey wrote: Will you please stop bothering your sister Maru My sister is not Maru. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:03 AM, Jim Sharkey wrote: Will you please stop bothering your sister Maru My sister is not Maru. Maybe he was addressing Maru, who is lurking on the list. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:03 AM, Jim Sharkey wrote: On thing the article doesn't seem touch on, particularly in light of how it indicates single parents are worse off, is how much children can be a source of friction in their parents' relationship. It can be hard to be on the same page vis a vis the rules and regulations of your household at all times, and *that* can create some unforeseen problems, IMO. For example, I wish I'd had a camera to take a picture of my wife's face when my aforementioned eldest asked if she could get her hair dyed purple and I said I don't see why not. I believe in picking my battles. :-) The article addressed it, though maybe not in as much depth as other aspects of the harder side of parenting: This is the brutal reality about children—they’re such powerful stressors that small perforations in relationships can turn into deep fault lines. And my wife became more demanding, he continues. 'You don’t do this, you don’t do that.' There was this idea we had about how things were supposed to be: The family should be dot dot dot, the man should be dot dot dot the woman should be dot dot dot. The money quote of the whole article for me: They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit. It's not so much that I agree with it, but it's so plainly put. Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
On Jul 8, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Dan Minette wrote: On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:03 AM, Jim Sharkey wrote: Will you please stop bothering your sister Maru My sister is not Maru. Maybe he was addressing Maru, who is lurking on the list. Damn that Maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes some people fulfilled
I've got two grown kids (30 and 32) and two grandkids (5,3) and while there were moments of profound unhappiness and extreme distress during their upbringing, nothing in my life even comes close to the sense of fulfillment and accomplishment I get from having raised them. From the article: About twenty years ago, Tom Gilovich, a psychologist at Cornell, made a striking contribution to the field of psychology, showing that people are far more apt to regret things they haven’t done than things they have. In one instance, he followed up on the men and women from the Terman study, the famous collection of high-IQ students from California who were singled out in 1921 for a life of greatness. Not one told him of regretting having children, but ten told him they regretted not having a family. No regrets. Doug ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
