What is IT? (was: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world)
Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: [I think Dave:] ...Of course, I have no idea if this is what he intended, but he's talking about the psychological concept of thrownness, and he describes it better than many articles that purport to be /about/ thrownness. There's a term that's new to me...sounds like the state one is in after being unceremoniously dumped by a sneaky equine... ;) I think it originated with Martin Heidegger in his _Being and Time_. sniplet I remember that it is as much philosophical as it is psychological -- it is in the area of personality theory. It's described in some detail in a paper at http://www.focusing.org/apm_papers/fox.html. There is an it which cannot be reduced to any aspect of itself. It is rich with structure and can be explored in a disciplined way (this is equally true for therapy and for philosophy). Let us not make the mistake of confusing the true fact that it cannot be reduced to any aspect of itself, and that it is and must remain indeterminate in the present-at-hand sense, with the error of believing that therefore there is no it at all. slow smile Soul, Self, String...The Unbearable Lightness Of Being. I'm surprised Madeleine L'Engle didn't toss this concept into one of her books, considering the physics/religion interfaces she threaded into her stories. Debbi whose elder feline watcher looked suspiciously knowing about this concept...Thrownness - good name for a cat, although it would sound prettier in Polynesian __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
At 03:16 PM 5/13/2004 -0700 Deborah Harrell wrote: For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. Maybe you just don't hang around the right type of Christians? At 05:02 PM 5/13/2004 -0700 Dave Land wrote: Another gem from Vonnegut's piece: Even crazier than golf, though, is modern American politics, where, thanks to TV and for the convenience of TV, you can only be one of two kinds of human beings, either a liberal or a conservative. Huh?I've seen lots of people called moderates on American political TV. And of course there are the conservative Democrats and ultra-conservative Repulicans just to name two other variations. JDG John D. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
JDG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:16 PM 5/13/2004 -0700 Deborah Harrell wrote: For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. Maybe you just don't hang around the right type of Christians? First, *I* didn't write that -- it's a quote from the KV essay/article. Second, my Christian friends in fact *do* occasionally use the Beatitudes and other sayings of Jesus -- I have certainly mentioned on-list that among them are devout members of Catholic, Lutheran and various other denominations/flavors. And the point (from my standpoint) was that the 'vocal Christians' one sees on TV streetcorners, and reads about in the news, are overwhelmingly the Bible-thumping, hellfire'n'brimstone, selectively-Old-Testament-rule-spouting, intolerant-of-any-other-POV-except-their-own-tunnel-visioned-'truth' types. There are several reasons for that: 1) It's much more photogenic (arm-waving preacher bouncing across the stage, congregants swooning under the influence of 'the spirit' -- vs. calm discussion of 'what does this parable mean to us in our everyday lives?'). 2) Americans aren't interested in watching 'good news' programs (there was one on WGN IIRC that smothered slowly despite having interesting, positive-focued stories) -- except perhaps as minute-spot 'Channel 7 News' Hero of the Week Award recipients et. al.. [PBS does a little bit better WRT both 1 and 2, IMO.] 3) It appeals to rational folk in that they can say to themselves *I'm* not such a bigoted, intolerant idiot! -- rather akin to the role of the poor slobs on 'Jerry Springer.' Debbi Sister Cindy And Brother Jeb At Free Speech Alley Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Dave Land wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: I don't recall reading any Vonnegut novels (though I'm sure I must have read some short stories in anthologies) - have to remedy that. Not sure whether my word has any weight for you, but I read most of what he wrote, and have enjoyed it tremendously. His writing was one of the few things that my very conservative Dad and I agreed on. Carries weight with me; I've read everything he's written. The only book I didn't really like was God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater. To begin reading, go to Slaughterhouse Five first, then The Sirens of Titan. One of the things I've always like about Vonnegut is the religions he invents in his stories. In The Sirens of Titan, the comes up with The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent. Cat's Cradle gives us Bokononism. And he can write! George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
G. D. Akin wrote: Carries weight with me; I've read everything he's written. The only book I didn't really like was God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater. To begin reading, go to Slaughterhouse Five first, then The Sirens of Titan. Yes, and don't stop there. Vonnegut's books are not only hilarious in their overall construction, but they are beautifully written, filled with tiny moments of crystalline beauty: To the as-yet-unborn, to all innocent wisps of undifferentiated nothingness: Watch out for life. (The opening words of Deadeye Dick) The best thing of all for me is that I discovered him when I was about 14 or 15 years old, which was a perfect time to read him. If you ever have a chance to see the 1971 public television production Between Time and Timbuktu or Prometheus-5, a Space Fantasy, do. It's a blenderized version of Vonnegut's work prior to that date (sadly, being stuck in time, they didn't include any of his later works). He says of the screenplay: This book is said to have been written by me. And I did write it, too, pretty much -- over the past twenty-two years. But it would never have occurred to me to put my words in this particular order I began to fool around with the script myself. I grafted the head of a box turtle onto the neck of a giraffe, so to speak -- and so on. Amazingly, chillingly, hilariously, the impossible creature lived for a little while. It was clumsy, funny-looking, and almost pathetically eager to please. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Dave Land wrote: G. D. Akin wrote: Carries weight with me; I've read everything he's written. The only book I didn't really like was God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater. To begin reading, go to Slaughterhouse Five first, then The Sirens of Titan. Yes, and don't stop there. Absolutely! I think that everyone in the known universe should read Player Piano, but that's just me. :) My sister loved (and encouraged me to read) Breakfast of Champions when she was 14 and I was 16. We both thought that one was great. And then she proceeded to buy and read a lot of his stuff over the next 2 years, some of which I borrowed. And we got his stuff out of the library, too. Vonnegut was one author both enjoyed a lot together. Not that many authors we did that with for non-children's books Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
I have liked all of Vonnegut's. Some of his more recent I don't feel works as well. I loved 'God Bless You Mr. Rosewater' and 'Mother Night.' They are not science fiction but have strong moral points. Except for one or two short stories everything else of his I've read is science fiction although you will not find him in the science fiction section of the library. Gary Denton Notebook - http://elemming.blogspot.com Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest http://elemming2.blogspot.com On Fri, 14 May 2004 13:18:29 -0500, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Land wrote: G. D. Akin wrote: Carries weight with me; I've read everything he's written. The only book I didn't really like was God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater. To begin reading, go to Slaughterhouse Five first, then The Sirens of Titan. Yes, and don't stop there. Absolutely! I think that everyone in the known universe should read Player Piano, but that's just me. :) My sister loved (and encouraged me to read) Breakfast of Champions when she was 14 and I was 16. We both thought that one was great. And then she proceeded to buy and read a lot of his stuff over the next 2 years, some of which I borrowed. And we got his stuff out of the library, too. Vonnegut was one author both enjoyed a lot together. Not that many authors we did that with for non-children's books Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: I don't recall reading any Vonnegut novels (though I'm sure I must have read some short stories in anthologies) - have to remedy that. snip Vonnegut skewers left, right, center and dimensions that even Libertarians don't measure. He seems to enjoy piercing pride more than just about anything else. snip ...Of course, I have no idea if this is what he intended, but he's talking about the psychological concept of thrownness, and he describes it better than many articles that purport to be /about/ thrownness. I've always described it as being rather like the game Myst (if you recall that)*, only in this one, there are lots of other people, many of whom are trying to screw you and each other (using any definition of that word that you like), nobody actually knows what the whole point of the game is, there's stuff here that can /kill/ you (and sometimes laughs about it) and there's no easy way to quit. There's a term that's new to me...sounds like the state one is in after being unceremoniously dumped by a sneaky equine... ;) Thanks also to G.D., Julia and Gary for the recs. Debbi Play Mysty For Me Maru ;) *(I never did play that one) __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Deborah Harrell wrote: [extensive snippage] ...Of course, I have no idea if this is what he intended, but he's talking about the psychological concept of thrownness, and he describes it better than many articles that purport to be /about/ thrownness. There's a term that's new to me...sounds like the state one is in after being unceremoniously dumped by a sneaky equine... ;) I think it originated with Martin Heidegger in his _Being and Time_. As I remind myself about it further (thank you, Google), I remember that it is as much philosophical as it is psychological -- it is in the area of personality theory. It's described in some detail in a paper at http://www.focusing.org/apm_papers/fox.html. As for your observation, horses are too smart for me. They know that they can kill me without hardly trying, and have attempted to do so once or twice. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Julia Thompson wrote: Dave Land wrote: G. D. Akin wrote: Carries weight with me; I've read everything he's written. The only book I didn't really like was God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater. To begin reading, go to Slaughterhouse Five first, then The Sirens of Titan. Yes, and don't stop there. Absolutely! I think that everyone in the known universe should read Player Piano, but that's just me. :) My sister loved (and encouraged me to read) Breakfast of Champions when she was 14 and I was 16. We both thought that one was great. And then she proceeded to buy and read a lot of his stuff over the next 2 years, some of which I borrowed. And we got his stuff out of the library, too. Vonnegut was one author both enjoyed a lot together. Not that many authors we did that with for non-children's books --- I agree, don't stop at my two top suggestions, read ALL. Player Piano is wonderful. Breakfast of Champions, Slapstick, and Cat's Cradle will have you ROTFLOL and making you stop and think. One word of caution: DO NOT watch the movie version of Breakfast of Champions; it is terrible. On the gripping hand, Slaughterhouse Five is pretty good on film. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
FW: [Larryniven-l] Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the worldFrom the Larry Niven list: George A A bit too long to post. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
G. D. Akin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FW: [Larryniven-l] Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the worldFrom the Larry Niven list: A bit too long to post. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm [small excerpt] Doesnt anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public schools or health insurance for all? How about Jesus Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes? Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. And so on. Not exactly planks in a Republican platform. Not exactly Donald Rumsfeld or Dick Cheney stuff. For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course thats Moses, not Jesus. I havent heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere. Blessed are the merciful in a courtroom? Blessed are the peacemakers in the Pentagon? Give me a break! I don't recall reading any Vonnegut novels (though I'm sure I must have read some short stories in anthologies) - have to remedy that. Debbi who got Rob's point about the other shoe, and sadly agrees that it _will_ drop, and grimly agrees with whoever posted that it will most likely happen before the November election __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Deborah Harrell wrote: I don't recall reading any Vonnegut novels (though I'm sure I must have read some short stories in anthologies) - have to remedy that. Not sure whether my word has any weight for you, but I read most of what he wrote, and have enjoyed it tremendously. His writing was one of the few things that my very conservative Dad and I agreed on. Vonnegut skewers left, right, center and dimensions that even Libertarians don't measure. He seems to enjoy piercing pride more than just about anything else. Another gem from Vonnegut's piece: Even crazier than golf, though, is modern American politics, where, thanks to TV and for the convenience of TV, you can only be one of two kinds of human beings, either a liberal or a conservative. About 2/3 of the way through, he writes But I have to say this in defense of humankind: No matter in what era in history, including the Garden of Eden, everybody just got there. Given that,it's no wonder that we're confused by the way the world works and why we screw it up so much. Of course, I have no idea if this is what he intended, but he's talking about the psychological concept of thrownness, and he describes it better than many articles that purport to be /about/ thrownness. I've always described it as being rather like the game Myst (if you recall that), only in this one, there are lots of other people, many of whom are trying to screw you and each other (using any definition of that word that you like), nobody actually knows what the whole point of the game is, there's stuff here that can /kill/ you (and sometimes laughs about it) and there's no easy way to quit. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
