Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "Reggie Bautista" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. [Snip Stories of family excesses] > Before I address the issue of reporting the guy, let me back up a step. The > discussion in the thread was whether people would take jobs that illegal > immigrants take for the pay that illegal immigrants make; in other words, > would tossing out illegals directly translate to more jobs for Americans. I > think the answer to that is pretty clearly "no" at this point, as shown by > my quote earlier on the income of farm workers and by your example of > illegal immigrant roofers being paid less than minimum wage. Yes, I am guilty of unanchoring the thread. But back to the discussion at large: I think it is important to note that roofers and fruit pickers do not typify the overall employment of illegal aliens. Also important is the incredibly vast undereporting of illegal worker numbers. > > Having said that, I'd like to remind you that the report I was quoting on > farm workers was on *all* farmworkers, not just illegal alien farmworkers. > There are a few Americans who make a living (such as it is) following crops > around the country, but they are the vast minority in the industry from my > understanding of it. If all the illegals were tossed out of the country, > the farming industry as we know it in America would cease to exist. There > would be almost no one willing to do the work these people do at the rates > of pay these people accept for their work and under the conditions in which > they work. Food prices would skyrocket because the cost of hiring people to > harvest the food would skyrocket. Of course this would only affect the part > of the farm industry where there is not a lot of automation (or possibly not > any way to do automation). And I'm pretty sure economies of scale would > play into it as well, with giant corporate farms having more money available > to hire higher priced workers, giving the corporate farms yet another > advantage over the small-farm owner. And if in addition to deporting all > the illegal aliens, we also threw in jail everyone who hired them, then not > only would we have very few farmworkers left in America, we'd also have not > many farm owners left. I'm gratified to see that you understand the labor market, because *that* is how it works! BTWI'm not promoting the idea that Illegal aliens should be kicked out of the US wholesale, but that immigration law should be modified to reflect reality and that American citizen lawbreakers (in regards to the subject of this discussion) should be brought to trial and vilified not just for breaking the law, but for attempting to set policy via means outside the established methods. [OTT Statement] If we continue to allow employers to hire illegal aliens and then offer amnesties over and over then, then if we are consistant, we will forgive the debts of tax evaders and make marijuana legal because so many participate in those acts. > > I've followed the farmworkers issue for quite a while. My family has > fortunately never had to do that kind of work (Dad was in the military for a > while as a radar guy, then worked for Bendix and eventually retired as an > electrician from AT&SF Railway Company, and Mom was a professional > cosmetologist and even taught cosmetology for a while), but social justice > issues have always been important to my family and in the hispanic community > (at least around KC), the migrant farmworkers issue has always been one of > the more prominent social justice issues. So I guess I knew about some of > the complexity of the migrant farmworkers issue going back just about as far > as I can remember. That is probably a bigger issue down in the Texas Valley (near the Mexican border) than it is in my area. Here the issues (for Hispanics) tend more toward employment opportunity, educational opportunity, and the police breaking down your door in the middle of the night and killing you. > But I never knew much about the construction issue until > I met this guy my niece decided to marry. I just assumed that the same kind > of complexity existed in that industry as well and decided not to jump to > conclusions about the guy who hired my niece's husband. Hopefully not > everyone in construction who hires illegals is as much of a profiteer as > your cousin. > No, they all aren't. Especially the larger firms (large enough to be audited occasionally for whatever reasons) are quite progressive in their hiring and management practices. I know several smallish companies that treat all their employees eq
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
I wrote: > > But illegal aliens work > > for far less than union scale. That's why a lot of companies break > the law > > to hire them. Also, I won't dispute that citizen employees who work > in > > construction get good benefits. But employers don't treat illegals > the > > same. Rob replied: > Bear with me on this. > Anyone who would break one law by hiring a worker illegally and then > would break or skirt another with discriminatory pay policies is not > much better than a slaveowner. > A "real" American would turn them in. (I'm serious!) > > I had a cousin who was a great friend when we were kids. > I didn't see much of him after his time in the US Navy, but he started > a roofing company. I later found out he wouldn't hire Americans. He > would only hire illegals and then payed them less than minimum wage > when he could get away with it. (This is in Houston mind you. Boiling > in summer, miserable when its cold.) > Oh yes, he was a real piece of work. He got caught cheating on his > taxes, and when his lawyer informed him he would only have to pay > pennies on the dollar he screamed at him "I paid you so I wouldn't > have to pay taxes at all". > Apparently he felt that because he had served as a cook on an aircraft > carrier during Gulf War 1, he shouldn't have to pay taxes. > > The jerk owned 3 houses, a real nice boat, several cars and that still > wasn't good enough. > [On a side note, he also was a Rush quoting fire breathing Republican > without a concience, which goes a long way toward explaining why I > mistrust the motives behind that party, even though I like the > conservatives I know here on the List] > > Knowing all I know now, *I* would have turned his sorry ass in, but in > one of his frequent drunk driving episodes he was killed in an auto > accident along with 4 other people in the car he hit. > > He was about 33. But perhaps if he had been subjected to the full > force of the law a few years earlier, he might have changed his ways > and would still be here bitching about Clinton. Before I address the issue of reporting the guy, let me back up a step. The discussion in the thread was whether people would take jobs that illegal immigrants take for the pay that illegal immigrants make; in other words, would tossing out illegals directly translate to more jobs for Americans. I think the answer to that is pretty clearly "no" at this point, as shown by my quote earlier on the income of farm workers and by your example of illegal immigrant roofers being paid less than minimum wage. Having said that, I'd like to remind you that the report I was quoting on farm workers was on *all* farmworkers, not just illegal alien farmworkers. There are a few Americans who make a living (such as it is) following crops around the country, but they are the vast minority in the industry from my understanding of it. If all the illegals were tossed out of the country, the farming industry as we know it in America would cease to exist. There would be almost no one willing to do the work these people do at the rates of pay these people accept for their work and under the conditions in which they work. Food prices would skyrocket because the cost of hiring people to harvest the food would skyrocket. Of course this would only affect the part of the farm industry where there is not a lot of automation (or possibly not any way to do automation). And I'm pretty sure economies of scale would play into it as well, with giant corporate farms having more money available to hire higher priced workers, giving the corporate farms yet another advantage over the small-farm owner. And if in addition to deporting all the illegal aliens, we also threw in jail everyone who hired them, then not only would we have very few farmworkers left in America, we'd also have not many farm owners left. I've followed the farmworkers issue for quite a while. My family has fortunately never had to do that kind of work (Dad was in the military for a while as a radar guy, then worked for Bendix and eventually retired as an electrician from AT&SF Railway Company, and Mom was a professional cosmetologist and even taught cosmetology for a while), but social justice issues have always been important to my family and in the hispanic community (at least around KC), the migrant farmworkers issue has always been one of the more prominent social justice issues. So I guess I knew about some of the complexity of the migrant farmworkers issue going back just about as far as I can remember. But I never knew much about the construction issue until I met this guy my niece decided to marry. I just assumed that the same kind of complexity existed in that industry as well and decided not to jump to conclusions about the guy who hired my niece's husband. Hopefully not everyone in construction who hires illegals is as much of a profiteer as your cousin. Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mai
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "Reggie Bautista" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. > I wrote: > > > Just from anecdotal knowledge from around the Kansas City area, pay > > and to > > > access to bathroom facilities are better in the construction > > industry, but > > > it's still seasonal and weather-dependent work with long hours of > > > back-breaking labor with little to no benefits and a paycheck only a > > little > > > better than what you would get for flipping burgers. > > > > > Rob replied: > > Ack > > Reggie, where are you getting this info from? > > I work with a guy from KC and I can tell you that KC is pretty much a > > union town compared with Houston. > > Non-union companies *have* to pay something close to union wages, > > otherwise they would not be able to compete for skilled laborers. > > Same with benefits, and I know that benefit packages for union labor > > are significantly better in KC than Houston. > > Pay is much higher in KC than it is here and *I* made over 50k last > > year. > > Laborers make 12 - 15 bucks an hour here and somewhat more there. > > What do burger flippers make there? > > > > > > Calling construction work "seasonal" is a bit misleading. Only "new" > > construction is seasonal in *some* parts of the country. But "new" > > construction is only a portion of the construction market. There are > > remodels, retrofits, and maintenance contracts to consider, and > > together they make the bulk of the construction market. > > Actually, a lot of construction workers work indoors all year. In cold > > weather areas, work is scheduled so that outside work is performed > > during the warmer months and the balance of the work is done in an > > enclosed environment. > > I got the info from an illegal alien to whom my niece used to be married, > who worked in the construction industry (in new construction, mostly doing > roofing IIRC). I was not trying to suggest that regular employees in the > construction industry don't make a lot of money. Ah...OK...Thanks for the clarification! Roofing G!! > But illegal aliens work > for far less than union scale. That's why a lot of companies break the law > to hire them. Also, I won't dispute that citizen employees who work in > construction get good benefits. But employers don't treat illegals the > same. > Bear with me on this. Anyone who would break one law by hiring a worker illegally and then would break or skirt another with discriminatory pay policies is not much better than a slaveowner. A "real" American would turn them in. (I'm serious!) I had a cousin who was a great friend when we were kids. I didn't see much of him after his time in the US Navy, but he started a roofing company. I later found out he wouldn't hire Americans. He would only hire illegals and then payed them less than minimum wage when he could get away with it. (This is in Houston mind you. Boiling in summer, miserable when its cold.) Oh yes, he was a real piece of work. He got caught cheating on his taxes, and when his lawyer informed him he would only have to pay pennies on the dollar he screamed at him "I paid you so I wouldn't have to pay taxes at all". Apparently he felt that because he had served as a cook on an aircraft carrier during Gulf War 1, he shouldn't have to pay taxes. The jerk owned 3 houses, a real nice boat, several cars and that still wasn't good enough. [On a side note, he also was a Rush quoting fire breathing Republican without a concience, which goes a long way toward explaining why I mistrust the motives behind that party, even though I like the conservatives I know here on the List] Knowing all I know now, *I* would have turned his sorry ass in, but in one of his frequent drunk driving episodes he was killed in an auto accident along with 4 other people in the car he hit. He was about 33. But perhaps if he had been subjected to the full force of the law a few years earlier, he might have changed his ways and would still be here bitching about Clinton. xponent My Cousin..The Bastard Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
I wrote: > > Just from anecdotal knowledge from around the Kansas City area, pay > and to > > access to bathroom facilities are better in the construction > industry, but > > it's still seasonal and weather-dependent work with long hours of > > back-breaking labor with little to no benefits and a paycheck only a > little > > better than what you would get for flipping burgers. > > Rob replied: > Ack > Reggie, where are you getting this info from? > I work with a guy from KC and I can tell you that KC is pretty much a > union town compared with Houston. > Non-union companies *have* to pay something close to union wages, > otherwise they would not be able to compete for skilled laborers. > Same with benefits, and I know that benefit packages for union labor > are significantly better in KC than Houston. > Pay is much higher in KC than it is here and *I* made over 50k last > year. > Laborers make 12 - 15 bucks an hour here and somewhat more there. > What do burger flippers make there? > > > Calling construction work "seasonal" is a bit misleading. Only "new" > construction is seasonal in *some* parts of the country. But "new" > construction is only a portion of the construction market. There are > remodels, retrofits, and maintenance contracts to consider, and > together they make the bulk of the construction market. > Actually, a lot of construction workers work indoors all year. In cold > weather areas, work is scheduled so that outside work is performed > during the warmer months and the balance of the work is done in an > enclosed environment. I got the info from an illegal alien to whom my niece used to be married, who worked in the construction industry (in new construction, mostly doing roofing IIRC). I was not trying to suggest that regular employees in the construction industry don't make a lot of money. But illegal aliens work for far less than union scale. That's why a lot of companies break the law to hire them. Also, I won't dispute that citizen employees who work in construction get good benefits. But employers don't treat illegals the same. Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "Reggie Bautista" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. > Just from anecdotal knowledge from around the Kansas City area, pay and to > access to bathroom facilities are better in the construction industry, but > it's still seasonal and weather-dependent work with long hours of > back-breaking labor with little to no benefits and a paycheck only a little > better than what you would get for flipping burgers. > Ack Reggie, where are you getting this info from? I work with a guy from KC and I can tell you that KC is pretty much a union town compared with Houston. Non-union companies *have* to pay something close to union wages, otherwise they would not be able to compete for skilled laborers. Same with benefits, and I know that benefit packages for union labor are significantly better in KC than Houston. Pay is much higher in KC than it is here and *I* made over 50k last year. Laborers make 12 - 15 bucks an hour here and somewhat more there. What do burger flippers make there? Calling construction work "seasonal" is a bit misleading. Only "new" construction is seasonal in *some* parts of the country. But "new" construction is only a portion of the construction market. There are remodels, retrofits, and maintenance contracts to consider, and together they make the bulk of the construction market. Actually, a lot of construction workers work indoors all year. In cold weather areas, work is scheduled so that outside work is performed during the warmer months and the balance of the work is done in an enclosed environment. xponent Back Not Broken Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "Gary Nunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 1:07 PM Subject: RE: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. > > > >Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow > > manage to enforce > > >its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our > > >economy - the effects on the US would be catastrophic. > > > > > >JDG > > > > Prove it. > > Kevin T. > > > That depends if the US unemployed workers would be willing to jump in > and take those jobs. This may be a stereotypical comment, but I suspect > that many illegal immigrant workers are doing jobs that many US workers > would refuse to do - even if they are unemployed. It would be an > interesting experiment to model. > > Gary You mean like hang drywall? xponent More To It Than That Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "Kevin Tarr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. > At 12:47 PM 1/3/2004, you wrote: > >At 05:21 PM 12/31/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: > > >Almost a month after Ortiz was arrested, Homeland Security Secretary > > >Tom Ridge said: "The bottom line is, as a country we have to come to > > >grips with the presence of 8 to 12 million illegals, afford them some > > >kind of legal status some way, but also as a country decide what our > > >immigration policy is and then enforce it." > > > > > >No, Mr. Secretary. We already have immigration laws. It's your duty to > > >enforce them. If the arrest of a Mexican diplomat for helping to > > >smuggle Arabs into the U.S. can't convince you of the need for that, > > >what will? > > > > > >Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow manage to enforce > >its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our economy - > >the effects on the US would be catastrophic. > > > >JDG > > > Prove it. > > Kevin T. There are probably that many illegal Mexicans in Texas alone. xponent The Count Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. > At 05:21 PM 12/31/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: > >Almost a month after Ortiz was arrested, Homeland Security Secretary > >Tom Ridge said: "The bottom line is, as a country we have to come to > >grips with the presence of 8 to 12 million illegals, afford them some > >kind of legal status some way, but also as a country decide what our > >immigration policy is and then enforce it." > > > >No, Mr. Secretary. We already have immigration laws. It's your duty to > >enforce them. If the arrest of a Mexican diplomat for helping to > >smuggle Arabs into the U.S. can't convince you of the need for that, > >what will? > > > Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow manage to enforce > its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our economy - > the effects on the US would be catastrophic. > > As a nation, we need to come to grips to reconciling our immigration and > economic policies. > What's wrong with Ridges statement is that we already have an immigration policy. It is not being followed. It is being actively circumvented. It is not in any way a problem that people are flocking across our border. But there are problems and 2 come to mind immediately. First, the people coming across illegally are for the most part skilless, ignorant villagers fresh out of the rain forests. I am around them all the time. They are not stupid and for the most part not lazy, but they are uneducated and do not speak the language the rest of us speak. This would not be too much of a problem if it were a limited situation such as we had with the Vietnamese immigrant wave or the early Cuban waves. It could be dealt with What make this a problem is that there are millions of them and mostly they "refuse" to learn English. This is probably not viewed as a problem by people who see Mexicans as a means to cheap lawn care, but when I have to tell a guy not to spray a live transformer with a pressure washer I have to "hope" that he understands well enough and that he won't be injured or killed as soon as I am out of sight. (This is a problem I have run across many times, ignorance and an inability to communicate) The "refusal" to learn English brings up the second problem. I suppose you might call it the Balkanization of the melting pot. As long as we encourage immigrants (illegal or not) to isolate themselves from the rest of our society by providing them with preferential treatment in the form of multilingual signage for example (Please exclude airports and tourist destinations from this argument), they will continue to form insular communities. I call it preferential treatment because we do not provide the same kinds of helpful accommodations for Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Germans, Dutch, Portuguese, etc.. But at the basics, I don't care if its Tom Ridge, GW Bush or Bill Clinton, you just cannot selectively enforce laws for the sake of expedience. xponent Running Rantant Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
- Original Message - From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 1:30 PM Subject: RE: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S. > At 02:07 PM 1/3/2004 -0500 Gary Nunn wrote: > >That depends if the US unemployed workers would be willing to jump in > >and take those jobs. This may be a stereotypical comment, but I suspect > >that many illegal immigrant workers are doing jobs that many US workers > >would refuse to do - even if they are unemployed. It would be an > >interesting experiment to model. > > Given the high percentage of them involved in activities like fruit > picking, construction, and janitorial services this is almost certainly true. > > But I'm not even sure that there are 8 to 11 million American citizens out > there without jobs to even take those jobs. For once, I have to agree with JDG. First of all, in most parts of the country, neither construction work nor farm work are year-round industries. According to http://www.dol.gov/asp/programs/agworker/report_8.pdf In 1997-98, farmworkers spent, on average, about 47 percent of their time in U.S. farm work, 24 percent of their time living abroad, 19 percent of their time residing but not working in the U.S., and 8 percent of their time in U.S. nonfarm employment. >From the same report, the average hourly wage of all farmworkers in the U.S. (not just migrant laborers) is $5.94. This is actually higher that I expected, but you can get paid more to work for Burger King. And "just 5 percent reported being covered by employer provided health insurance." Also, "[h]ourly wage information over the ten-year period 1989 to 1998 demonstrates that the purchasing power of farm wages has been declining." The decline was "more than 10 percent During the same 1989 to 1998 period, the average farm wage dropped from 54 percent of that earned by production workers in the private, nonfarm sector to just 48 percent" Also, "[p]aid holidays and/or paid vacations were provided to just 10 percent of all farmworkers." Again, you would be better off working full-time for Burger King. And with that amount of money and lack of benefits, only "21 percent of all farmworkers received free housing from their agricultural employers Virtually all farmworkers provided and paid for their own meals and 13 percent reported that toilets were not available while at work." In the final analysis, "one half of all individual farmworkers earned less than $7500 per year and one half of all farmworker families earned less than $10,000 per year." This does not sound like the kind of industry I'd work in if I could find any way possible to avoid it, even if that way involved using social services. And these people aren't receiving a whole lot in the way of social services either. Still from the same 61 page report: In 1997-98, just 17 percent of all farmworkers used needs-based services. Needs-based services include financial aid through programs such as temporary assistance to needy families (TANF), general assistance or welfare, and publicly provided housing or medical and nutritional assistance such as Women, Infants and Children (WIC), Food Stamps and Medicaid [U]se of needs-based services by this population was minimal. Just from anecdotal knowledge from around the Kansas City area, pay and to access to bathroom facilities are better in the construction industry, but it's still seasonal and weather-dependent work with long hours of back-breaking labor with little to no benefits and a paycheck only a little better than what you would get for flipping burgers. Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
At 02:07 PM 1/3/2004, you wrote: > >Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow > manage to enforce > >its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our > >economy - the effects on the US would be catastrophic. > > > >JDG > Prove it. > Kevin T. That depends if the US unemployed workers would be willing to jump in and take those jobs. This may be a stereotypical comment, but I suspect that many illegal immigrant workers are doing jobs that many US workers would refuse to do - even if they are unemployed. It would be an interesting experiment to model. Gary Let's look at the numbers: The US population is ~280 million. The total employment is 138.6 million. The original article said 8 to 12 million illegals not 8 to 12 million illegal workers. 140/280 is 50 percent so 8 to 12 million illegals is 4 to 6 million illegal workers. At the high end that's 5% of the work force. Since the unemployment rate is 5.9%, that would go down to 0.9%. There, solved unemployment with a few keystrokes. (Of course that wouldn't happen, but just showing it.) I do think it's stereotypical to assume that all illegals are fruit pickers and janitorial workers or that they are getting paid below minimum wage, that prices for good and services would go up noticeably if the illegals were removed. I'd love to trot out my own stereotype, that there would be a savings by removing the drain on society that non taxpaying illegals bring but I won't ;-) This problem has been going on for years. If the country wants to be serious about it's border security then it has to have short term pain for long term benefits. Kevin T. - VRWC 3:30, time to get dressed ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
At 02:07 PM 1/3/2004 -0500 Gary Nunn wrote: >That depends if the US unemployed workers would be willing to jump in >and take those jobs. This may be a stereotypical comment, but I suspect >that many illegal immigrant workers are doing jobs that many US workers >would refuse to do - even if they are unemployed. It would be an >interesting experiment to model. Given the high percentage of them involved in activities like fruit picking, construction, and janitorial services this is almost certainly true. But I'm not even sure that there are 8 to 11 million American citizens out there without jobs to even take those jobs. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
> >Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow > manage to enforce > >its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our > >economy - the effects on the US would be catastrophic. > > > >JDG > Prove it. > Kevin T. That depends if the US unemployed workers would be willing to jump in and take those jobs. This may be a stereotypical comment, but I suspect that many illegal immigrant workers are doing jobs that many US workers would refuse to do - even if they are unemployed. It would be an interesting experiment to model. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
At 12:47 PM 1/3/2004, you wrote: At 05:21 PM 12/31/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: >Almost a month after Ortiz was arrested, Homeland Security Secretary >Tom Ridge said: "The bottom line is, as a country we have to come to >grips with the presence of 8 to 12 million illegals, afford them some >kind of legal status some way, but also as a country decide what our >immigration policy is and then enforce it." > >No, Mr. Secretary. We already have immigration laws. It's your duty to >enforce them. If the arrest of a Mexican diplomat for helping to >smuggle Arabs into the U.S. can't convince you of the need for that, >what will? Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow manage to enforce its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our economy - the effects on the US would be catastrophic. JDG Prove it. Kevin T. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
At 05:21 PM 12/31/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: >Almost a month after Ortiz was arrested, Homeland Security Secretary >Tom Ridge said: "The bottom line is, as a country we have to come to >grips with the presence of 8 to 12 million illegals, afford them some >kind of legal status some way, but also as a country decide what our >immigration policy is and then enforce it." > >No, Mr. Secretary. We already have immigration laws. It's your duty to >enforce them. If the arrest of a Mexican diplomat for helping to >smuggle Arabs into the U.S. can't convince you of the need for that, >what will? Actually, Ridge is right.If the US were to somehow manage to enforce its immigration laws and remove 8 to 12 million workers from our economy - the effects on the US would be catastrophic. As a nation, we need to come to grips to reconciling our immigration and economic policies. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Mexican Diplomat Charged With Helping Smuggle Arabs Into U.S.
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=2716 The real life horror story that began eighteen months ago when an Arab illegal alien named Youseff Balaghi showed up at a San Diego hospital, dying from what the Border Patrol initiallyand erroneouslyfeared was radiation sickness, has now reached high into Mexico's foreign service. On Sept. 11, 2001, Imelda Ortiz Abdala was Mexico's consul in Lebanon. On Nov. 12, 2003, Mexican authorities arrested her, according to the Associated Press, "on charges of helping a smuggling ring move Arab migrants into the United States from Mexico." The AP said Mexico had also arrested "alleged ring leader Salim Boughader Mucharafille." Boughader earlier pleaded guilty in the U.S. to the smuggling incident that resulted in Balaghi's death. Unfortunately, this story is not over. Assistant U.S. Attorney Mike Skerlos prosecuted Boughader. This week, citing Ortiz's arrest, I asked him if there were other rings still bringing Middle Easterners in from Mexico. "Yes," he said. Another Front Far from Iraq, there's another front where the terror war's not over. It's on our own borderand, here, the key enemies are the smugglers who bring people such as Balaghi into California, and who collaborate with allegedly corrupt officials such as Ortiz. In congressional testimony in 2002, then-Assistant Immigration and Naturalization Service Commissioner Joseph Greene said: "Information available to the INS indicates terrorist organizations often use human smuggling operations to move around the globe." According to a Library of Congress study, "Organized Crime and Terrorist Activity in Mexico, 1999-2002," former Mexican national security adviser Adolfo Aguilar Zinser said in May 2001: "Spanish and Islamic terrorist groups are using Mexico as a refuge." How is the U.S. countering the threat of terrorists using human smuggling operations and finding refuge in Mexico? Rather than securing our border generally, the government tolerates large-scale illegal immigration, while trying to selectively stop the smuggling operations most likely to move terrorists. The administration, Greene told Congress, has put in place an "enforcement initiative aimed at targeting alien smuggling organizations specializing in the movement of U.S.-bound aliens from countries that are of interest to the national security of the United States." Balaghi was from Lebanon. On June 5, 2002, he showed up, vomiting blood, at Scripps Memorial Hospital-Chula Vista. He quickly died. When the Border Patrol heard his symptoms, they feared radiation sicknessand dispatched an agent with a detector to check his remains. Balaghi was clean. But he was far from the only Middle Easterner Boughader's ring had smuggled. In an affidavit, Border Patrol Agent John R. Korkin said an investigation "positively identified at least 80 Lebanese nationals that have been, or were intercepted in the process of being, smuggled into the U.S." by the ring. Boughader admitted in court to smuggling more than 100. He was sentenced to one year in prison, and deported to Mexico in November. Almost immediately, Mexican authorities arrested him in their own anti-smuggling case. A few days later, they arrested Ortiz. She had worked in Mexico's foreign service for 25 years. From 1998 to October 2001, AP reported, she was Mexico's consul in Lebanon. She later directed the consular office in Mexico City. She was fired in May, AP said, "after 150 Mexican passports were stolen and two others were found to have been issued irregularly." Jose Santiago Vasconcelos, Mexico's assistant attorney general, told Notimex that Boughader's ring moved "a great number of Arabs" into the United States. El Occidental, a Mexican newspaper, said it was "at least 200." I asked Skerlos to compare that number to the "at least 80 Lebanese nationals" cited in Korkin's affidavit "I think it is fair to say that the numbers we included in our affidavit were conservative," he said. Almost a month after Ortiz was arrested, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge said: "The bottom line is, as a country we have to come to grips with the presence of 8 to 12 million illegals, afford them some kind of legal status some way, but also as a country decide what our immigration policy is and then enforce it." No, Mr. Secretary. We already have immigration laws. It's your duty to enforce them. If the arrest of a Mexican diplomat for helping to smuggle Arabs into the U.S. can't convince you of the need for that, what will? xponent Gone South Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
