RE: Gas prices alternative fuel
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Louis Mann Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:13 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Gas prices alternative fuel ...because something is cheap doesn't mean we need to be wasteful, but that's the mentality and lifestyle of the US. Until gas prices started going up, higher efficiency cars were a fantasy for the future. In the 80's 90s, most people, myself included, never considered or cared that oil and gas prices would necessitate the development of lighter and more efficient vehicles. When I graduated in the early 80's, $4 a gallon gas was something from a post-apocalypse movie. Even science fiction didn't predict high gas prices - most assumed that 30 years in the future an alternative fuel source would be in use... the market for higher mpg cars started to pick up after the OPEC gas price increases in the 70s. unfortunately, it didn't last. while the price of gas will continue to fluctuate, it will no longer dip that much, relatively, because demand will continue to outstrip supply, despite renewed exploration and exploitation of vanishing resources. Ah, what vanishing resource? Complex hydrocarbons? We've tapped well less than 1% of those in the past 200 years. We've just picked the low hanging fruit. The real question is, will the cost of developing the next fields be higher than the alternatives. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas prices alternative fuel sources. (was: Sarah Palin)
On Sep 1, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Gary Nunn wrote: Are high gas prices a necessary evil to force technological advancement? They shouldn't be, and in an economy and social/cultural framework that cultivated proactive thinking at least in the majority, they wouldn't be. The problem is that the existing paradigm tends to go ahead with business as usual until it becomes totally unsustainable, *then* start developing technologies to deal with the crisis, usually when it's way too late and the development starts out way down the declining backside of the curve. This is characteristic of virtually every level of human organization. (And all too often, when the thinking people do propose proactive ways to avoid future crises, they're branded as conspiracy theorists or fringe elements and discredited .. until it turns out that they were right all along. I've said before that this country has a very strong anti-science and anti-knowledge streak in its mainstream culture.) I do my share of complaining about gas prices, especially when I sit in almost daily traffic jams burning up that $4.00 a gallon fuel. However, In a debate with my daughter, I brought up the question of, without sufficient motivation, would anyone be aggressively looking for alternative fuel sources? Global Warming certainly would not cause sufficient motivation. For the majority of people, global warming is a someday it might happen thing that they don't see happening in their lifetimes, and a) see as a much lower priority than paying the bills, buying groceries, and keeping the kids in school, along with other day-to-day immediate realities; and b) feel essentially impotent, on some levels at least, to do anything about. It's not a right here, right now perception to most people, because most people don't watch the horizon as closely as much as many of us here do. They either trust the smart people to fix it somehow before it becomes a crisis, or they don't believe (and in some cases, actively disbelieve!) that it's a real problem at all. This generally tends to play into the keep doing what we're doing until something breaks and then try to fix it tendency of the culture as a whole. Nothing motivates the masses more that money. If we're still buying $1.50 a gallon gas at the pumps, why would anyone be motivated to get rid of that Hummer getting 10 miles per gallon (on a good day!) and find more efficient and sustainable fuel sources? Why would car manufacturers do the research and development to create vehicles with higher fuel efficiency unless they have to? The manufacturers are in fact actively resisting any development of alternate-energy technology that exists right now, and in one rather well-documented case, a major oil company and a major auto manufacturer own rights to patents for an alternate-energy technology that was in fact on the road in modest numbers in CA in the 1990's, patents they refuse to license to anyone even hinting at wanting to build commuter-scale highway-capable electric cars. (Google any combination of Chevron, Cobasys, Ovonics, NiMH, and EV-95 for a wealth of documentation on this.) They're doing this, in part, because they are acutely aware that their profitability has historically been very closely tied to the oil and gasoline energy economy (ignoring the fact that their current decline, and danger of bankruptcy and worse things, is also closely tied to that same economy), and in part because they're all locked in a sort of suboptimal Nash equilibrium where none of them wants to incur the RD costs of opening up the market to commuter-scale EVs just to see all of their competitors cash in on that investment. As long as the one who moves first is the loser in the short term, nobody will move first, until some external force (like a ZEV mandate with teeth in it that they can't sabotage in back room deals) forces them to do so .. and once BEV's that are suitable for the average daily commute (plus a sigma or two) and the infrastructure to support them are in place in at least a critical mass, the market *will* shift for good. The demand is definitely there. But it all comes down to the fact that it's not possible to push changes like this without understanding the micro-, mes0- and macroeconomics of the status quo enough to know where and when to push .. and having had a presidential administration for the past 8 years that has had no inclination to do so, let alone enough understanding of the market forces to do it even if they wanted to, hasn 't helped .. This language proposes a new doctrine for the use of force, that we use force whenever we see an injustice that we want to correct. Like Mother Teresa with first strike capability. -- Toby Ziegler ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas prices alternative fuel sources. (was: Sarah Palin)
On 02/09/2008, at 1:58 AM, Gary Nunn wrote: Nothing motivates the masses more that money. If we're still buying $1.50 a gallon gas at the pumps, why would anyone be motivated to get rid of that Hummer getting 10 miles per gallon (on a good day!) and find more efficient and sustainable fuel sources? Because it's the right thing to do? Just because something is cheap does not mean we need to be wasteful. Substitute anyone with most people in that sentence and I'll agree with you. Why would car manufacturers do the research and development to create vehicles with higher fuel efficiency unless they have to? Or unless they see a market for it. But yes. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas prices alternative fuel sources. (was: Sarah Palin)
They shouldn't be, and in an economy and social/cultural framework that cultivated proactive thinking at least in the majority, they wouldn't be. The problem is that the existing paradigm tends to go ahead with business as usual until it becomes totally unsustainable, *then* start developing technologies to deal with the crisis, My point exactly. In a Utopian society, the thinkers and scientists would proactively look for solutions with the full support of society in general. However, we are talking about America, a country that thrives on, and worships convenience. It's not convenient to consider Global Warming, it's not convenient to consider alternative energy sources, etc. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas prices alternative fuel sources. (was: Sarah Palin)
Because it's the right thing to do? Just because something is cheap does not mean we need to be wasteful. Substitute anyone with most people in that sentence and I'll agree with you. Ok, Most people. I agree, just because something is cheap doesn't mean that we need to be wasteful, but unfortunately that's the mentality and lifestyle of the US. Until gas prices started going up, higher efficiency cars were a fantasy for the future. In the 80's 90s, most people, myself included, never considered or cared that oil and gas prices would necessitate the development of lighter and more efficient vehicles. When I graduated in the early 80's, $4 a gallon gas was something from a post-apocalypse movie. I remember being pissed off that I had to pay the VERY unreasonable price of $1.15 a gallon to fill up my first car. Even science fiction didn't predict high gas prices - most assumed that 30 years in the future an alternative fuel source would be in use. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas prices alternative fuel sources. (was: Sarah Palin)
Gary Nunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a Utopian society, the thinkers and scientists would proactively look for solutions with the full support of society in general. However, we are talking about America, a country that thrives on, and worships convenience. It's not convenient to consider Global Warming, it's not convenient to consider alternative energy sources, etc. If convenience implies efficient use of available resources, then this is not a bad thing. The problem with your Utopian society is that there are an infinite number of proactive things that could be done. How to decide which ones to do, since a real society cannot pursue an infinite number of proactive projects? One way to decide is to let free-market prices be the guide. Historically, this has worked well, which surprises some people who think that there must be an intelligent-designer for a system to work well. But in a free-market, prices distill the experience and skills (and perhaps even wisdom) of a vast number of people throughout the world. I think this concept may be the most important lesson that I learned in studying economics. To get this a little bit on topic, there is actually a good science-fiction book that came out recently on this subject, although it is more science than fiction. I recommend The Price of Everything: A Parable of Possibility and Prosperity by Russ Roberts: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8733.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Public good is a technical term with a clear meaning. Right but not relevant, and dangerous to the polity. An example of a `public good' in jargon language is a street sign at which many people can look (i.e. is `non-rivalrous', to use jargon) and at which looking is hard to prevent (i.e. is `non-excludable', also to use jargon). But this list is more likely to use the concepts of the preamble to the US Constitution: ... provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare ... In that document, the notions of the `common defense' and the `general welfare' provide a definition of what is good for the public. (Justice, tranquility, and liberty are also listed.) When gasoline and other fuels are required for cars used for evacuation and for hospitals, then a lack of gasoline and other fuels becomes a danger that an official sworn to `provide for the common defense' and `promote the general welfare' should handle. It is harmful to disguise this. The danger is that less will be done about officials who fail to `provide for the common defense' than should be done. The US government's weather service predicted last Saturday, 28 Aug 2005, that New Orleans would be hit by a level 4 or higher hurricane. The prediction was not 100% accurate in that the hurricane went a little beside New Orleans. But the other predictions, made long before, that such a level hurricane (or less probably, but still possibly, lower level hurricanes) would lead to levies breaking was correct. There is a nice distinction between the concepts of `typical' and `normal' that is based on time scale: `Typically', New Orleans is not hit or nearly hit by hurricanes. `Normally', New Orleans is hit or nearly hit once in a while. The latter is what emergency management is about: figuring out on late Saturday, 28 Aug 2005, what to do if both the US government hurricane path prediction is correct or somewhat correct and if the US government's and other organization's flooding prediction is correct or somewhat correct. The emergency management policies are not new. After all, in the United States people in public have talked about a mass exodus from and the destruction of US cities since nuclear, chemical, and biological weapon systems became a threat. And people have talked about the dangers of hurricanes even longer. A job of people in government is to protect, preserve, prepare, and provide food, water, shelter, fuel and more. That action is a public good and those supplies are good for the relevant public. -- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Public good is a technical term with a clear meaning. Right but not relevant, and dangerous to the polity. snip But this list is more likely to use the concepts of the preamble to the US Constitution: ... provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare ... In that document, the notions of the `common defense' and the `general welfare' provide a definition of what is good for the public. (Justice, tranquility, and liberty are also listed.) When gasoline and other fuels are required for cars used for evacuation and for hospitals, then a lack of gasoline and other fuels becomes a danger that an official sworn to `provide for the common defense' and `promote the general welfare' should handle. It is harmful to disguise this. The danger is that less will be done about officials who fail to `provide for the common defense' than should be done. snip A job of people in government is to protect, preserve, prepare, and provide food, water, shelter, fuel and more. That action is a public good and those supplies are good for the relevant public. Dang it, Bob, you took my perfectly good intuitive, emotional response and showed why it is in fact a rational and reasoned position...have you no sense of macho decency?!? But seriously, as usual, very good points. :) Debbi Good Gut, But Some Expressive Aphasia Maru Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
In a message dated 9/2/2005 10:49:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But, if there is a shortage, and prices are kept constant, what, besides rationing or gas lines, would reduce demand to the level of supply? This isn't a rhetorical question, I can't think of another mechanism that would work quickly and efficiently. I see your point but their might need to be some response. Set up carl pools; add bus lines; some support ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Gas Prices In a message dated 9/2/2005 10:49:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But, if there is a shortage, and prices are kept constant, what, besides rationing or gas lines, would reduce demand to the level of supply? This isn't a rhetorical question, I can't think of another mechanism that would work quickly and efficiently. I see your point but their might need to be some response. Set up carl pools; add bus lines; some support Certainly. I could even make a free market argument that the time/cost tradeoff favors busses and car pools more as gas prices rise. :-) Indeed, I'd argue that we should have been taxing gas at a rate closer to the European rate in order to encourage consumption. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:25:21 -0500 Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 04:19 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: [snip] The Chevron jump from $2.679 to $3.019 in the space of 6 hours was the most startling to me. (It might be based on, We can get the next shipment at $X per gallon. No, it's going to be $Y per gallon. Now it's up to $Z per gallon.) FWIW, that is what I understand is at least part of the problem. -- Ronn! :) Right On, baby! I think you meant to say, TheProblem (in bold ital.) $3.00 is about what they've been paying for gasoline in Canada and Europe for years. I'm not sure where we get off whining so much about this. We're just getting around to paying our fair share. Leonard Matusik [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: truth.you and I don't NEED to burn all this gasoline. We demand it. (Who's responsible for PetroPolitics now?) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l - Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 2 Sep 2005, at 1:42 pm, Leonard Matusik wrote: Right On, baby! I think you meant to say, TheProblem (in bold ital.) $3.00 is about what they've been paying for gasoline in Canada and Europe for years. $6.30 US per US gallon here in the UK. (£0.91/liter). Unless it's been going up in the last few days. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Invest in a company any idiot can run because sooner or later any idiot is going to run it. - Warren Buffet ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
William T Goodall wrote: $6.30 US per US gallon here in the UK. (£0.91/liter). Unless it's been going up in the last few days. But your lovely g*vernment takes most of it. T*xes in Europe for gasoline steal more than 60% of the price [let gov.br not hear this, because it´s 50% here] Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
William T Goodall wrote: On 2 Sep 2005, at 1:42 pm, Leonard Matusik wrote: Right On, baby! I think you meant to say, TheProblem (in bold ital.) $3.00 is about what they've been paying for gasoline in Canada and Europe for years. $6.30 US per US gallon here in the UK. (£0.91/liter). Unless it's been going up in the last few days. I actually saw a price go DOWN. The Chevron that had it at $3.019 around 3 yesterday afternoon now has it at $2.999. :) Julia who ought to go to austingasprices.com and report it! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 2 Sep 2005, at 6:15 pm, Julia Thompson wrote: William T Goodall wrote: On 2 Sep 2005, at 1:42 pm, Leonard Matusik wrote: Right On, baby! I think you meant to say, TheProblem (in bold ital.) $3.00 is about what they've been paying for gasoline in Canada and Europe for years. $6.30 US per US gallon here in the UK. (£0.91/liter). Unless it's been going up in the last few days. I actually saw a price go DOWN. The Chevron that had it at $3.019 around 3 yesterday afternoon now has it at $2.999. :) It was $6.55 when we went out to get some an hour ago. Next time we'll go to Sainsburys supermarket and use the $0.35/gallon off (£0.05 / liter) coupon on the bottom of the till receipt. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ The three chief virtues of a programmer are: Laziness, Impatience and Hubris - Larry Wall ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 1, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Capitalist Evil Logic dictates that with such low margin it´s not worth building a new refinery. No, that would be _correct_ logic. If the margin for building a refinery were that low, then _you should build something else_. The reason capitalism is A Good Thing is because it forces economies to operate efficiently. Spending money on low-return projects when higher return projects are available is inefficient. It is impossible to predict what the price of oil will be in 20 years, so of course you don't build refineries that might or might not be useful 20 years from now. That would be a useless waste of resources. Ahh, but the other side of that is (for instance) how rare asteroid strikes to Earth have been; it's probably not going to happen as long as our species is around. However, would you agree with capitalism's logic that it's inefficient -- therefore unwise -- to plan for such a contingency and develop technology to help us prevent it? Efficiency in a market can't be the only measure of a thing's value, because there are human-scale effects which can't be costed. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ahh, but the other side of that is (for instance) how rare asteroid strikes to Earth have been; it's probably not going to happen as long as our species is around. However, would you agree with capitalism's logic that it's inefficient -- therefore unwise -- to plan for such a contingency and develop technology to help us prevent it? That's not the logic of capitalism. It's barely even the logic of some sort of cliched stereotype of capitalism. Protecting against risks like that is what is called a public good. Somewhere around your second week of a first year economics class, they'll explain that public goods are things that markets don't provide for adequately, and this is when governments have to step in. Gasoline is, however, not much of a public good. Efficiency in a market can't be the only measure of a thing's value, because there are human-scale effects which can't be costed. A true but trivial statement. Efficiency in a market is an _enormously important_ value. When a market is inefficient you are saying that, in the aggregate, people are less well off than they might be. If you build a refinery using some resources, then you fail to build something else with those same resources. You are giving something up by choosing to build that refinery. So you must make a decision. Build a refinery or build something else. A company that built a refinery 20 years ago (when gas prices were quite low) or 10 years ago (when they were _extremely low) would have been making a very bad decision. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ahh, but the other side of that is (for instance) how rare asteroid strikes to Earth have been; it's probably not going to happen as long as our species is around. However, would you agree with capitalism's logic that it's inefficient -- therefore unwise -- to plan for such a contingency and develop technology to help us prevent it? That's not the logic of capitalism. It's barely even the logic of some sort of cliched stereotype of capitalism. Protecting against risks like that is what is called a public good. Somewhere around your second week of a first year economics class, they'll explain that public goods are things that markets don't provide for adequately, and this is when governments have to step in. Gasoline is, however, not much of a public good. It is when driving your car is the only way to escape death. It is when critical patients stuck in generator-powered-only hospitals can't breathe. It is when food and water have to be trucked miles into a disaster zone where refugees haven't had any for days. Debbi But Then That Explains Your Take On Drug Prices Maru (Hey, just following your shining example of argumentation, ol' boy.) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is when driving your car is the only way to escape death. It is when critical patients stuck in generator-powered-only hospitals can't breathe. It is when food and water have to be trucked miles into a disaster zone where refugees haven't had any for days. Debbi But Then That Explains Your Take On Drug Prices Maru (Hey, just following your shining example of argumentation, ol' boy.) No, it still isn't. Public good is a technical term with a clear meaning. It doesn't mean whatever is convenient for Debbi at this moment in time. And my take on drug prices is based on a desire to preserve innovation and access in the United States and around the world. Other than a reflex hostility to corporate profits and self-righteousness, where does yours come from? Sauce for the goose, after all... Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 2:09 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ahh, but the other side of that is (for instance) how rare asteroid strikes to Earth have been; it's probably not going to happen as long as our species is around. However, would you agree with capitalism's logic that it's inefficient -- therefore unwise -- to plan for such a contingency and develop technology to help us prevent it? That's not the logic of capitalism. It's barely even the logic of some sort of cliched stereotype of capitalism. Protecting against risks like that is what is called a public good. Somewhere around your second week of a first year economics class, they'll explain that public goods are things that markets don't provide for adequately, and this is when governments have to step in. Gasoline is, however, not much of a public good. What a load. Ever hear of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? Apparently, someone, somewhere thought that the government needed to step in to ensure a consistent supply of this public good. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Other than a reflex hostility to corporate profits and self-righteousness, Still haven't abandoned the When will you stop beating your wife style of argument, eh? where does yours come from? A rather different sort of ethics -- one that I greatly prefer than what I see as idolization of free market economics. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a load. Ever hear of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? Apparently, someone, somewhere thought that the government needed to step in to ensure a consistent supply of this public good. Dave I have. But you haven't, apparently, because you don't seem to know what it is. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is a very good idea designed to deal with political (i.e. non-market) disruptions in crude oil supplies. The problem we're dealing with at the moment is (first) mainly a problem of _refined_ gasoline, to which the SPR can contribute very little right now, because it stores crude oil. It's also _strategic_, i.e., designed to be used because oil is a political commodity. This is very different from price controls (enforced, in your call, by shooting people who violate them, because that's how you usually end up dealing with looters). Price controls are almost always a bad idea. They've always been a bad idea. They're the idea of people who think that they are somehow morally exempt from the laws of supply and demand, a position that makes about as much sense as claiming you're morally exempt from the law of gravity. You might _want_ to be, but I still advise a parachute next time you jump out of an airplane. In this case, if we were to not raise the price of gasoline when the quantity of gasoline available has shrunk, the outcome would be immediately predictable. Shortages. Gas lines. You raise the price of something if you want people to use it more efficiently. We now have less gasoline. You want people to use it more efficiently? The price has to go up. It can go up in the dollar price. Or it can go up by making people wait in line. We tried that in the 1970s, it wasn't really a successful policy. Unless you're a member of the left, I guess, which seems to believe that the entire world should be run like the DMV. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
I have said this before, but just to make it clear. No post from Nick will _ever_ get any answer of any sort from me on list beyond this one. For me to be called a racist by someone like _him_, of all people, puts him entirely the bounds of decent society, and I will continue to ignore him now and in the future. --- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/2/05, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Other than a reflex hostility to corporate profits and self-righteousness, Still haven't abandoned the When will you stop beating your wife style of argument, eh? where does yours come from? A rather different sort of ethics -- one that I greatly prefer than what I see as idolization of free market economics. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Gas Prices A rather different sort of ethics -- one that I greatly prefer than what I see as idolization of free market economics. It's amazing to see people talking past each other when I think I can clearly see what is being said both ways. Let's look at gasoline supply. After Katrina, the prices went up, because supply was disrupted. The rise in prices discourages demand, thus allowing most people who are willing to pay a higher price to get gasoline, to obtain that gasoline as they need it. If prices do not go up.and thus reduce demand, then some other mechanism is needed to allocate gasoline. When prices have been controlled in the '70s, the results were long lines at the gas pumpswhich actually increased demand for several obvious reasons. So, even though some people will be hit hard by the increase in prices, I see allowing the market to function as the least bad alternative we have. The libertarian argument for this is based on principals that markets are inherently more moral than government intervention. A truly conservative argument is that, for all of its flaws, the market does a much better job of allocating gasoline in most cases than does the government. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: government intervention. A truly conservative argument is that, for all of its flaws, the market does a much better job of allocating gasoline in most cases than does the government. Dan M. To be fair, that's _one_ of the two libertarian/conservative arguments. The other is that it's much, much better to make sure that the government must not have the _power_ to control these things, because if they do, they will put it to bad use. If the government can control gasoline allocations, then only the friends of the people in power will get gasoline, and this is A Bad Thing. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 2:54 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: I have said this before, but just to make it clear. No post from Nick will _ever_ get any answer of any sort from me on list beyond this one. For me to be called a racist by someone like _him_, of all people, puts him entirely the bounds of decent society, and I will continue to ignore him now and in the future. Isn't this the moral equivalent of announcing that someone is in your killfile? I have made that mistake in the past and have learned that it is not such a good idea. Your arguments give me the vapors, but I don't announce that I will not argue with you any more. It is simply not productive. If you don't want to argue, just don't argue, don't go around stamping your feet singing nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, I can't hear you. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have. But you haven't, apparently, because you don't seem to know what it is. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is a very good idea designed to deal with political (i.e. non-market) disruptions in crude oil supplies. So you are opposed to the administration's plan to use oil from the SPR now? They're the idea of people who think that they are somehow morally exempt from the laws of supply and demand, a position that makes about as much sense as claiming you're morally exempt from the law of gravity. Over-simplified prattle. Supply and demand is a human invention that tries -- and mostly fails -- to explain *why* pricing behaves as it does, not *how* they behave. It only works in a utopian setting, which is a rare thing indeed. This must have been taught in the third week of freshman economics, probably around when they talked about elasticity, which belongs in any discussion of pricing. Economists these days realize that pricing has a great deal to do with perception, subjectivity, than supply and demand. The law of gravity doesn't tell us *why* masses attact, it describes *how* they attract each other. And it describes them very, very well. Not perfectly, but very well -- at the opposite end of the pragmatics spectrum from the law of supply and demand. Unless you're a member of the left, I guess, which seems to believe that the entire world should be run like the DMV. Ah there's the prejudice against half the country again. Evil, bad lefties. All of 'em. Snort. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Gas Prices --- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: government intervention. A truly conservative argument is that, for all of its flaws, the market does a much better job of allocating gasoline in most cases than does the government. Dan M. To be fair, that's _one_ of the two libertarian/conservative arguments. The other is that it's much, much better to make sure that the government must not have the _power_ to control these things, because if they do, they will put it to bad use. If the government can control gasoline allocations, then only the friends of the people in power will get gasoline, and this is A Bad Thing. But, the government does have the power, right? Congress has imposed gasoline rationing in the past. I think that, if the government were the most efficient at rationing gasoline, then a good argument would be made for it to take that function. For example, if overseas oil supplies were stopped for, say, a year, then I wouldn't expect to rely on market forces to handle this. If you look at other massive government programs, there's problems with fraud, but I don't think that only buddies of Congressmen get Social Security or Medicare. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a load. Ever hear of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? Apparently, someone, somewhere thought that the government needed to step in to ensure a consistent supply of this public good. Dave I have. But you haven't, apparently, because you don't seem to know what it is. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is a very good idea designed to deal with political (i.e. non-market) disruptions in crude oil supplies. The problem we're dealing with at the moment is (first) mainly a problem of _refined_ gasoline, to which the SPR can contribute very little right now, because it stores crude oil. I guess you're not aware that the SPR released 6M barrels of oil in response to the Katrina disaster. I am aware of the fact that the problem with Katrina is that refining capacity has been lost. I am also aware that the release of oil from SPR will probably not help very much. I mentioned the SPR because you took the argument into the realm of the theoretical by stating that gasoline is not much of a public good. I was not mentioning it as a response to Katrina. Lawdy, I'm tired of chasing your red herrings. Dave apparently too stupid to construct an argument that Gautam can follow Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Deborah Harrell wrote: [Responding to Gautam's statement that gasoline is not a public good.] It is when driving your car is the only way to escape death. It is when critical patients stuck in generator-powered-only hospitals can't breathe. It is when food and water have to be trucked miles into a disaster zone where refugees haven't had any for days. Debbi But Then That Explains Your Take On Drug Prices Maru (Hey, just following your shining example of argumentation, ol' boy.) No, it still isn't. Public good is a technical term with a clear meaning. It doesn't mean whatever is convenient for Debbi at this moment in time. raises eyebrow Waaal, podna -- death, suffocation, and dehydration (granting that 4 or 5 days of no food is not usually mortal, unless you're an infant or diabetic) are NOT matters of my convenience. They are, h, matters of life and death. Did you read Dan's post on price-gouging WRT gasoline? And my take on drug prices is based on a desire to preserve innovation and access in the United States and around the world. You are not taking into account the advances made by universities and publicly-funded institutes. For-profit drug companies *are not* the only or even primary sources of drug innovation. Other than a reflex hostility to corporate profits and self-righteousness, where does yours come from? Not reflex, laddie, but a well-honed sense learned by watching Exxon, Enron, Tyco...and so on. Not corporate profits - which I have stated on this List that they have a right to make - but corporate gouging. Several posters, me included (Erik? Dan? Kneem?), have cited various articles outlining the outsized margin-of-profit of pharmaceutical companies vs. other Fortune 500 corps (IIRC 15-17%). As for self-righteous -- not sure in what context you're stating this, but when I've been incorrect in a cite, fact or statement, I have retracted it on-List. You cannot say the same. [DDT ban. Mercury. If you wanted particulars.] Umm, where does my 'what' come from? I was conciously parodying your style of 'slash and burn' discussion, true, but gentle reasoning and subtle direction, as I have previously discovered and discussed on-List, simply do not penetrate your East-Coasters Thennanin-type skulls... ;} Debbi who is now smothering laughter, and must hie herself off to another lesson, but looks forward with heart a-flutter to the learn'ed response BOSEG Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the government can control gasoline allocations, then only the friends of the people in power will get gasoline, and this is A Bad Thing. As compared to the present situation, in which the people in power and their friends here and abroad own the gasoline... companies. Let's see, is it better to have the petroleum industry accountable to: A. Their stockholders (a group that has a high overlap with the present administration and its friends), or B. All of the voters of the country? If those were really the only choices, I'd go with B, thank you, even if it is socialist. Smaller government with less intervention would have made New Orleans: A. More prepared, or B. Less prepared for a big hurricane? Do we even need to talk about why private industry didn't invest in better levees, for which the federal government had allocated funds, but which were cut due to the rising cost of the war. And now we're hearing further calls for non-intervention by government in a critical resource, petroleum. At what point do people figure out that excessive privatization leads to lousy investment in public infrastructure, which leads to disaster eventually? Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 2:09 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ahh, but the other side of that is (for instance) how rare asteroid strikes to Earth have been; it's probably not going to happen as long as our species is around. However, would you agree with capitalism's logic that it's inefficient -- therefore unwise -- to plan for such a contingency and develop technology to help us prevent it? That's not the logic of capitalism. It's barely even the logic of some sort of cliched stereotype of capitalism. Protecting against risks like that is what is called a public good. Then why have no companies begun engineering this public good? Shouldn't the logic of capitalism, as you've presented it, make such a project a priority? Gasoline is, however, not much of a public good. Without it the nation grinds to a halt. Would you care to rethink the above declaration in that light? Efficiency in a market can't be the only measure of a thing's value, because there are human-scale effects which can't be costed. A true but trivial statement. Efficiency in a market is an _enormously important_ value. I never said it wasn't. I said it can't be the only measure. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:09 PM Subject: Re: Gas Prices On 9/2/05, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the government can control gasoline allocations, then only the friends of the people in power will get gasoline, and this is A Bad Thing. As compared to the present situation, in which the people in power and their friends here and abroad own the gasoline... companies. Let's see, is it better to have the petroleum industry accountable to: A. Their stockholders (a group that has a high overlap with the present administration and its friends), or B. All of the voters of the country? It appears that you are advocating the nationalization of major industries. Are you? If so, that's an interesting debate topic. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then why have no companies begun engineering this public good? Shouldn't the logic of capitalism, as you've presented it, make such a project a priority? Perhaps their accountants are busy calculating the net present value of various human lives. Which is to say, not without irony, that economic value is not the bottom line, even though our society behaves that way a great deal of the time. Too much, in my opinion. We need a new bottom line, which balances economic value with others, such as health, education, environment, public infrastructure, a social safety net and a lot of other leftie stuff... ;-) Any hey, why do the Bald Eagles at the National Aviary -- both of them! -- have their left wings missing? Huh? How come? It's like a bad joke, since the Scaife family is apparently its biggest financial supporter. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears that you are advocating the nationalization of major industries. Are you? If so, that's an interesting debate topic. Nope... I said *if* those were the only choices. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
It appears that you are advocating the nationalization of major industries. Are you? If so, that's an interesting debate topic. Nope... I said *if* those were the only choices. So, what are the other choices, and which one do you advocate? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, what are the other choices, and which one do you advocate? I'm not a policy expert of any sort, but it makes sense to me to prevent price gouging during an emergency. Seems to me we have a long tradition of that sort of policy. Price controls haven't worked well -- I recall the days of anti-inflationary wage and prices freezes fairly well. I certainly remember gas rationing. As for accountability, I believe that businesses must be accountable to their stockholders and the public, in different ways. Different industries at different times deserve different degrees of nationalization. I think it is terrible that our health care system isn't nationalized enough to assure that everyone in the richest country in the world has basic medical care available. The petroleum industry doesn't have the immediate impact of health care, but it is critical, so I think it we are right to demand a high level of public accountability from it. Details, I don't know. But to let it wave in the winds of laissez fair economics seems crazy to me, given the level of short-term disruption that could be caused by wildly fluctuating prices. Gasoline price stability is important... I'll leave it to others to muse on how stable and how to achieve it, but I don't buy the argument that it can't or shouldn't be done. It dawns on me that this is a bit closer to home, literally and figuratively, for you. Nothing personal, but if your income goes up while people can't get to work and businesses fail because of gasoline price volatility and gouging, that doesn't seem right at all, since you'd be benefitting not from innovation or efficiency, but from the misery of others, caused by a natural disaster -- events that were out of your hands and out of theirs. Turning to where I do have a strong stake... nobody will insure my daughter because of her diabetes. She got a third-degree burn on her foot recently and has had a terrible time getting treatment. I still am not sure she won't lose the foot, which is infected. Meanwhile, the health care industry justifies this because they have to make a profit to stay in business. Sorry, daughter, but the accountants don't even plug you into the numbers. Oy. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 4:53 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: As for accountability, I believe that businesses must be accountable to their stockholders and the public, in different ways. Different industries at different times deserve different degrees of nationalization. And some of them enjoy a kind of nationalization that hardly ever gets talked about -- the broadcast media, who are *given* radio spectra worth billions of dollars a year. I don't hear the free-marketeers decrying that government welfare program... Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
In a message dated 9/2/2005 5:50:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Price controls are almost always a bad idea. They've always been a bad idea. They're the idea of people who think that they are somehow morally exempt from the laws of supply and demand, a position that makes about as much sense as claiming you're morally exempt from the law of gravity. You might _want_ to be, but I still advise a parachute next time you jump out of an airplane. In this case, if we were to not raise the price of gasoline when the quantity of gasoline available has shrunk, the outcome would be immediately predictable. Shortages. Gas lines. You raise the price of something if you want people to use it more efficiently. We now have less gasoline. You want people to use it more efficiently? The price has to go up. It can go up in the dollar price. Or it can go up by making people wait in line. We tried that in the 1970s, it wasn't really a successful policy. Unless you're a member of the left, I guess, which seems to believe that the entire world should be run like the DMV. But there has to be some way to deal with emergencies such as this. It is not a matter of simply don't drive. Some (many) people need to drive to get to work. Would not the economy suffer if people can't afford even essential gas consumption. Isn't there some limited (in time or amount) of relief that can be given that will bend but not break the market. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
So, what are the other choices, and which one do you advocate? I'm not a policy expert of any sort, but it makes sense to me to prevent price gouging during an emergency. Seems to me we have a long tradition of that sort of policy. I think that is reasonable, as long as we can agree that the price rise that most of us see is not price gouging. As an aside, retail gas is often sold as a loss leaderthe prices at places like Diamond Shamrock or Stop Go or 7-11 are less than the cost of selling the gas. They make their profits inside the store. Price controls haven't worked well -- I recall the days of anti-inflationary wage and prices freezes fairly well. I certainly remember gas rationing. OK, we agree here, but I see you contradict that below. As for accountability, I believe that businesses must be accountable to their stockholders and the public, in different ways. Different industries at different times deserve different degrees of nationalization. I think it is terrible that our health care system isn't nationalized enough to assure that everyone in the richest country in the world has basic medical care available. This is a topic for another thread, but there are weaknesses in government run medical care, also. A friend of mine, who is a British physician who did an internship in the US gave a very personal description of the advantages and disadvantages of each system. I think universal health insurance is probably better than the government owning all health care facilitiesbut I won't go into detail on this here. The petroleum industry doesn't have the immediate impact of health care, but it is critical, so I think it we are right to demand a high level of public accountability from it. Details, I don't know. But to let it wave in the winds of laissez fair economics seems crazy to me, given the level of short-term disruption that could be caused by wildly fluctuating prices. Gasoline price stability is important.. I'll leave it to others to muse on how stable and how to achieve it, but I don't buy the argument that it can't or shouldn't be done. Gasoline production in the US has been curtailed. The length of this curtailment is unknown. If supply is less than demand, for say a month or two, how do you reduce demand to put it in line with supply? Prices will work very well at this, as millions of people change their buying habits. You agreed that rationing doesn't work. I suppose the president could make an appeal to patriotism, drive less, but I think that he would be overwhelmed by the first panicand we'd be back to gas lines. Indeed, IIRC, Carter made such an appeal without much effect. It dawns on me that this is a bit closer to home, literally and figuratively, for you. Nothing personal, but if your income goes up while people can't get to work and businesses fail because of gasoline price volatility and gouging, My income is not going to go up as a result of a blip in gasoline prices. Now, I did get laid off back around when prices were at historical lows, when exploration for oil was grinding to a halt. Remember when oil was selling for, inflation adjsuted, Great Depression prices? That's the time that SUV sales went through the roof. Were you opposed to low prices then, out of curiosity? I guess I know why energy is always a scapegoat for any ecconomic problems, but the rest of the nation wouldn't necessarily reach the promised land if the oil industry would enter a 3 decade bust, instead of just a 2 decade bust. During this time, the oil patch shrunk by about 50%, as a percentage of GDP. Before being laid off (in a 50% lay off), I survived a 50% layoff, and a move where 80% of the people lost their jobs. In 1986, the economy in Houston got to be so bad, due to the oil bust, that a virtually new 2000 square foot house in a nice neighborhood went for about $30,000. Given all this, why not just say that fuel prices were abnormally low for the last 20 years, and that we'll all be better off as more realistic prices cut consumption? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Gas Prices In a message dated 9/2/2005 5:50:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Price controls are almost always a bad idea. They've always been a bad idea. They're the idea of people who think that they are somehow morally exempt from the laws of supply and demand, a position that makes about as much sense as claiming you're morally exempt from the law of gravity. You might _want_ to be, but I still advise a parachute next time you jump out of an airplane. In this case, if we were to not raise the price of gasoline when the quantity of gasoline available has shrunk, the outcome would be immediately predictable. Shortages. Gas lines. You raise the price of something if you want people to use it more efficiently. We now have less gasoline. You want people to use it more efficiently? The price has to go up. It can go up in the dollar price. Or it can go up by making people wait in line. We tried that in the 1970s, it wasn't really a successful policy. Unless you're a member of the left, I guess, which seems to believe that the entire world should be run like the DMV. But there has to be some way to deal with emergencies such as this. For the people hit by the hurricane, this is an emergancy. But, the hit on our refining capacity was not overwhelming. From what I've seen, about 12% of the refineries were shut down temporarily. From what I've seen, the production loss should be fairly short termso this shutdown should be the sort of blip a big ecconomy like the US's handles in stride. It is not a matter of simply don't drive. Some (many) people need to drive to get to work. Would not the economy suffer if people can't afford even essential gas consumption. Isn't there some limited (in time or amount) of relief that can be given that will bend but not break the market. I honestly don't see how. If there isn't a shortage, the information will come out and the gasoline prices will continue to fall (Oct. futures dropped $0.23 today)and nothing will have to be done. But, if there is a shortage, and prices are kept constant, what, besides rationing or gas lines, would reduce demand to the level of supply? This isn't a rhetorical question, I can't think of another mechanism that would work quickly and efficiently. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:31 -0700 Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. Actually, the grown-up answer is a little simpler. Must-needs of cash flow demand that people who sell things for a living, sell them for their anticipated cost of replacement. Gasoline is no different from anything else. Maybe the vendor makes a little short term profit. The smart ones plow it into infrastructure improvement rather than declare a divident. Leonard Matusik [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Gautam Mukunda wrote: The margin of the refinery drop too low, and Capitalists won't invest in things that don't have an _immediate_ high return. You're kidding, right? By default, yes, but not this time. Just to pick an example from my old industry, a pharmaceutical company will spend on average ~$800MM to develop a drug, and that development process (from molecule to market) averages ~10 years. This is not anyone's definition of an immediate high return. This is one of those myths that people want to believe, I think. Ok, we dissent about the definition of immediate, that for oil companies is something like 20 years :-) The problem is that refineries had a huge margin before the 1974 oil crisis, and then it dropped to minimum levels. Capitalist Evil Logic dictates that with such low margin it´s not worth building a new refinery. But it's not exactly true [*] that no new refinery was build, because those that exist are upgraded regularly to 2x, 4x, etc their initial capacity. This is absolutely true, and something I said a few minutes ago in a talk with my Mom on this same topic. It is also true, though, that despite these improvements in capacity, US refining capacity was running flat-out even before Katrina, and this is not a good thing and something that really needed to be alleviated with some new construction. Yes, but who will invest, given the uncertainties of the oil prices? PDVSA? :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Leonard Matusik wrote: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:31 -0700 Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. Actually, the grown-up answer is a little simpler. Must-needs of cash flow demand that people who sell things for a living, sell them for their anticipated cost of replacement. Gasoline is no different from anything else. Maybe the vendor makes a little short term profit. The smart ones plow it into infrastructure improvement rather than declare a divident. Or maybe they're trying to make sure they can pay for the *next* shipment, which will cost significantly more than the last one did, and aren't sure how much that will be. If the price at the Chevron station is still what it was when I came in yesterday afternoon, I'm buying gas there for once. (It's usually the most expensive gas on that road, but it was within $0.02 of the cheapest gas, which was at a couple of Shell stations, which usually charge more than the Exxon and the HEB. Weird.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 1, 2005, at 5:03 AM, Leonard Matusik wrote: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:31 -0700 Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. Actually, the grown-up answer is … What I said, but with more words. Golly, I love writing a child's guide to economy. All impromptu and whatnot. And no one ever knew that it was a helpless little oil magnate that controlled the entire outcome of the local fair … and the crops for decades … and local elections… Charlotte's Web indeed. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 07:12 AM Thursday 9/1/2005, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Gautam Mukunda wrote: The margin of the refinery drop too low, and Capitalists won't invest in things that don't have an _immediate_ high return. You're kidding, right? By default, yes, but not this time. Just to pick an example from my old industry, a pharmaceutical company will spend on average ~$800MM to develop a drug, and that development process (from molecule to market) averages ~10 years. This is not anyone's definition of an immediate high return. This is one of those myths that people want to believe, I think. Ok, we dissent about the definition of immediate, that for oil companies is something like 20 years :-) The problem is that refineries had a huge margin before the 1974 oil crisis, and then it dropped to minimum levels. Capitalist Evil Logic dictates that with such low margin it´s not worth building a new refinery. But it's not exactly true [*] that no new refinery was build, because those that exist are upgraded regularly to 2x, 4x, etc their initial capacity. This is absolutely true, and something I said a few minutes ago in a talk with my Mom on this same topic. It is also true, though, that despite these improvements in capacity, US refining capacity was running flat-out even before Katrina, and this is not a good thing and something that really needed to be alleviated with some new construction. Yes, but who will invest, given the uncertainties of the oil prices? PDVSA? :-) Who is PDVSA? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Capitalist Evil Logic dictates that with such low margin it´s not worth building a new refinery. No, that would be _correct_ logic. If the margin for building a refinery were that low, then _you should build something else_. The reason capitalism is A Good Thing is because it forces economies to operate efficiently. Spending money on low-return projects when higher return projects are available is inefficient. It is impossible to predict what the price of oil will be in 20 years, so of course you don't build refineries that might or might not be useful 20 years from now. That would be a useless waste of resources. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 07:40 AM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Leonard Matusik wrote: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:31 -0700 Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. Actually, the grown-up answer is a little simpler. Must-needs of cash flow demand that people who sell things for a living, sell them for their anticipated cost of replacement. Gasoline is no different from anything else. Maybe the vendor makes a little short term profit. The smart ones plow it into infrastructure improvement rather than declare a divident. Or maybe they're trying to make sure they can pay for the *next* shipment, which will cost significantly more than the last one did, and aren't sure how much that will be. If the price at the Chevron station is still what it was when I came in yesterday afternoon, I'm buying gas there for once. (It's usually the most expensive gas on that road, but it was within $0.02 of the cheapest gas, which was at a couple of Shell stations, which usually charge more than the Exxon and the HEB. Weird.) Some BP station in Atlanta is charging -- and has posted -- $5.87/gal. for regular, and $6.07 for the highest grade. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 07:40 AM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Leonard Matusik wrote: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:31 -0700 Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. Actually, the grown-up answer is a little simpler. Must-needs of cash flow demand that people who sell things for a living, sell them for their anticipated cost of replacement. Gasoline is no different from anything else. Maybe the vendor makes a little short term profit. The smart ones plow it into infrastructure improvement rather than declare a divident. Or maybe they're trying to make sure they can pay for the *next* shipment, which will cost significantly more than the last one did, and aren't sure how much that will be. If the price at the Chevron station is still what it was when I came in yesterday afternoon, I'm buying gas there for once. (It's usually the most expensive gas on that road, but it was within $0.02 of the cheapest gas, which was at a couple of Shell stations, which usually charge more than the Exxon and the HEB. Weird.) Some BP station in Atlanta is charging -- and has posted -- $5.87/gal. for regular, and $6.07 for the highest grade. Dang! That's worse than my story! I drove by the Chevron this morning after 9. They posted $2.679. I drove by the Albertson's. They posted $2.749. I went to HEB. They posted $2.789. So the Chevron is the best place to buy gas. I buy my groceries at HEB and head back to the Chevron station. The price had gone up to $2.799. I grumbled and filled up the gas tank in that vehicle. I took a different vehicle to pick up Sam at school. I went to the Albertson's to buy the green bell peppers I'd neglected to get at HEB. When I went in to the store, the price was still $2.749. When I came out of the store, intending to buy gas, the price had jumped to $2.819. I figured I'd just go back to the Chevron and pay the $2.799 there. So I get to the Chevron and the price is now $2.899! I grumble and drive home without topping off that tank. I'm going to take that vehicle to take Sam to an appointment and go back to the HEB on the way back and pay whatever the heck HEB is charging at that point this afternoon, and expect the Chevron price to be up once again Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 01:15 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 07:40 AM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Leonard Matusik wrote: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:31 -0700 Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. Actually, the grown-up answer is a little simpler. Must-needs of cash flow demand that people who sell things for a living, sell them for their anticipated cost of replacement. Gasoline is no different from anything else. Maybe the vendor makes a little short term profit. The smart ones plow it into infrastructure improvement rather than declare a divident. Or maybe they're trying to make sure they can pay for the *next* shipment, which will cost significantly more than the last one did, and aren't sure how much that will be. If the price at the Chevron station is still what it was when I came in yesterday afternoon, I'm buying gas there for once. (It's usually the most expensive gas on that road, but it was within $0.02 of the cheapest gas, which was at a couple of Shell stations, which usually charge more than the Exxon and the HEB. Weird.) Some BP station in Atlanta is charging -- and has posted -- $5.87/gal. for regular, and $6.07 for the highest grade. Dang! That's worse than my story! It was on the noon news here. Followed of course by some official promising an investigation. I drove by the Chevron this morning after 9. They posted $2.679. I drove by the Albertson's. They posted $2.749. I went to HEB. They posted $2.789. So the Chevron is the best place to buy gas. I buy my groceries at HEB and head back to the Chevron station. The price had gone up to $2.799. I grumbled and filled up the gas tank in that vehicle. That is the same price I paid at the nearest Shell station this morning for 2 gallons to fill the can for the lawn mower. I took a different vehicle to pick up Sam at school. I went to the Albertson's to buy the green bell peppers Yum. I cut out the stem and the core and eat them raw. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 01:15 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: I drove by the Chevron this morning after 9. They posted $2.679. I drove by the Albertson's. They posted $2.749. I went to HEB. They posted $2.789. So the Chevron is the best place to buy gas. I buy my groceries at HEB and head back to the Chevron station. The price had gone up to $2.799. I grumbled and filled up the gas tank in that vehicle. That is the same price I paid at the nearest Shell station this morning for 2 gallons to fill the can for the lawn mower. And it's what I was *grateful* to pay just now to fuel up the third vehicle. I think we're not buying any more gas for a few days. I took a different vehicle to pick up Sam at school. I went to the Albertson's to buy the green bell peppers Yum. I cut out the stem and the core and eat them raw. These will be cut up and put on bamboo skewers with fresh mushrooms and marinated beef, and grilled over gas. (Sure, charcoal may make for a tastier product, but gas is easier to work with.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 04:09 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 01:15 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: I drove by the Chevron this morning after 9. They posted $2.679. I drove by the Albertson's. They posted $2.749. I went to HEB. They posted $2.789. So the Chevron is the best place to buy gas. I buy my groceries at HEB and head back to the Chevron station. The price had gone up to $2.799. I grumbled and filled up the gas tank in that vehicle. That is the same price I paid at the nearest Shell station this morning for 2 gallons to fill the can for the lawn mower. And it's what I was *grateful* to pay just now to fuel up the third vehicle. I think we're not buying any more gas for a few days. I took a different vehicle to pick up Sam at school. I went to the Albertson's to buy the green bell peppers Yum. I cut out the stem and the core and eat them raw. These will be cut up and put on bamboo skewers with fresh mushrooms and marinated beef, and grilled over gas. (Sure, charcoal may make for a tastier product, but gas is easier to work with.) Particularly since the invention of Beano. No Gas Shortage Here Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Julia Thompson wrote: I drove by the Chevron this morning after 9. They posted $2.679. I drove by the Albertson's. They posted $2.749. I went to HEB. They posted $2.789. So the Chevron is the best place to buy gas. I buy my groceries at HEB and head back to the Chevron station. The price had gone up to $2.799. I grumbled and filled up the gas tank in that vehicle. I took a different vehicle to pick up Sam at school. I went to the Albertson's to buy the green bell peppers I'd neglected to get at HEB. When I went in to the store, the price was still $2.749. When I came out of the store, intending to buy gas, the price had jumped to $2.819. I figured I'd just go back to the Chevron and pay the $2.799 there. So I get to the Chevron and the price is now $2.899! I grumble and drive home without topping off that tank. I'm going to take that vehicle to take Sam to an appointment and go back to the HEB on the way back and pay whatever the heck HEB is charging at that point this afternoon, and expect the Chevron price to be up once again Update on prices as of 3PM: HEB: $2.999 Albertson's: $2.819 (unchanged from the morning price) Chevron: $3.019 Previously unmentioned Shell station: $2.799, same as when I went by just after 9AM I put all the 3PM gas price info I had up on austingasprices.com . They didn't even have my Chevron listed before I did that! I guess I'll be updating that particular one on a regular basis in the future. The Chevron jump from $2.679 to $3.019 in the space of 6 hours was the most startling to me. (It might be based on, We can get the next shipment at $X per gallon. No, it's going to be $Y per gallon. Now it's up to $Z per gallon.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 04:19 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: [snip] The Chevron jump from $2.679 to $3.019 in the space of 6 hours was the most startling to me. (It might be based on, We can get the next shipment at $X per gallon. No, it's going to be $Y per gallon. Now it's up to $Z per gallon.) FWIW, that is what I understand is at least part of the problem. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 04:19 PM Thursday 9/1/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: [snip] The Chevron jump from $2.679 to $3.019 in the space of 6 hours was the most startling to me. (It might be based on, We can get the next shipment at $X per gallon. No, it's going to be $Y per gallon. Now it's up to $Z per gallon.) FWIW, that is what I understand is at least part of the problem. That's the best guess anyone not actually pricing gas seems to have about it. :) Or at least the most charitable to the gas station managers. (I'm used to that Chevron being the most expensive gas within 10-15 miles of me, anyway.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sep 1, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Julia Thompson wrote: Update on prices as of 3PM: HEB: $2.999 Albertson's: $2.819 (unchanged from the morning price) Chevron: $3.019 Ppaid $3.08 for 87 octane in San Diego. This to avoid paying $5.50/gal (or so, minimum 2 gallons) upon return of our rental car (a Honda Hybrid Civic) had we not been able to produce a receipt from within seven miles of the rental agency. So, by comparison, it was a bargain :-). Naturally, around the corner, after filling up, we saw gas for a more reasonable $2.799. I was not too thrilled with the agency's seven-mile policy, especially given that I was driving a vehicle that could go seven miles on two cups of gas or so, but they were the only ones we found who would rent us that particular model of car. Dave By the way: the Honda Hybrid Civic is a very nice drive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Yes, but who will invest, given the uncertainties of the oil prices? PDVSA? :-) Who is PDVSA? For you? Citgo. For us? Sometimes our best ally, sometimes our worse enemy :-) Alberto Monteiro PS: can you PLEASE do some trimming when you reply? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Subject: Re: Gas Prices
(previously written:) Some BP station in Atlanta is charging -- and has posted -- $5.87/gal. for regular, and $6.07 for the highest grade. Julia wrote: Dang! That's worse than my story! I drove by the Chevron this morning after 9. They posted $2.679. I drove by the Albertson's. They posted $2.749. I went to HEB. They posted $2.789. So the Chevron is the best place to buy gas. Even CNG prices have gone up! I'm up to $1.54 per gallon-equivalent! :-) -- Matt Sometimes it's nice to be out of the mainstream. Now I just have to find a way to go more than ~150 miles on a full tank. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Horn, John wrote: Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Some call it capitalism; some call it opportunism; some call it gouging. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas Prices
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] I filled up yesterday morning at $2.39 per gallon. When I went home yesterday, it was $2.69. I just passed the station on my way home from work today and it was $2.99 per gallon. How can that be? How can it have gone up $.60 per gallon over the course of a day? I know Katrina hit the gulf oil platforms hard but did gas prices jump this much in past hurricanes? Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Stocking up for a long, hard winter. Remember, the Gulf Coast refineries were hard hit - if there aint gonna be no more oil for a while, up goes the price. Get out your Nikes Start backpacking now... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I filled up yesterday morning at $2.39 per gallon. When I went home yesterday, it was $2.69. I just passed the station on my way home from work today and it was $2.99 per gallon. How can that be? How can it have gone up $.60 per gallon over the course of a day? I know Katrina hit the gulf oil platforms hard but did gas prices jump this much in past hurricanes? Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? - jmh The problem isn't crude oil supplies (mainly) but refinery capacity. Quite a few refineries are on the Gulf Coast as well, so this causes a significant problem, particularly because there is (IIRC) little or no slack in global refinery capacity either, so it's difficult to make up the difference. We haven't built a new refinery in the US in ~25 years or so - one guess as to why. The oil industry has also adopted JIT inventory management along with everyone else, but this means that oil prices are much more vulnerable to supply shocks than they were when everyone was keeping huge inventories of the stuff on hand. So this sort of a price spike is unsurprising. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
John Horn wrote: I filled up yesterday morning at $2.39 per gallon. When I went home yesterday, it was $2.69. I just passed the station on my way home from work today and it was $2.99 per gallon. How can that be? How can it have gone up $.60 per gallon over the course of a day? I know Katrina hit the gulf oil platforms hard but did gas prices jump this much in past hurricanes? Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? Heaven! Alberto Monteiro, who works for an oil company evil grin ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Gautam Mukunda wrote: We haven't built a new refinery in the US in ~25 years or so - one guess as to why. Because Capitalism is Evil and must be eradicated. The margin of the refinery drop too low, and Capitalists won't invest in things that don't have an _immediate_ high return. But it's not exactly true [*] that no new refinery was build, because those that exist are upgraded regularly to 2x, 4x, etc their initial capacity. Alberto Monteiro [*] or, rather, it is the naked truth, but it does not give the important data :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The margin of the refinery drop too low, and Capitalists won't invest in things that don't have an _immediate_ high return. You're kidding, right? Just to pick an example from my old industry, a pharmaceutical company will spend on average ~$800MM to develop a drug, and that development process (from molecule to market) averages ~10 years. This is not anyone's definition of an immediate high return. This is one of those myths that people want to believe, I think. But it's not exactly true [*] that no new refinery was build, because those that exist are upgraded regularly to 2x, 4x, etc their initial capacity. Alberto Monteiro This is absolutely true, and something I said a few minutes ago in a talk with my Mom on this same topic. It is also true, though, that despite these improvements in capacity, US refining capacity was running flat-out even before Katrina, and this is not a good thing and something that really needed to be alleviated with some new construction. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Gas Prices --- Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I filled up yesterday morning at $2.39 per gallon. When I went home yesterday, it was $2.69. I just passed the station on my way home from work today and it was $2.99 per gallon. How can that be? How can it have gone up $.60 per gallon over the course of a day? I know Katrina hit the gulf oil platforms hard but did gas prices jump this much in past hurricanes? Can someone (anyone?) explain what's going on? - jmh The problem isn't crude oil supplies (mainly) but refinery capacity. That is true, but it doesn't fully explain what happened. Oil futures prices went up about $2.00 a barrel from before/after. That's about 3%. Gasoline futures prices went up about $0.40/gallon, over 20%. But, that doesn't explain a $0.60 rise at the gas station for two reasons. 1) October futures delivery has no direct impact on the wholesale price already paid by the gas station owner. 2) The rise was 50% more than the future rise in wholesale prices. It was a reaction to what the market would bear, I think. Quite a few refineries are on the Gulf Coast as well, so this causes a significant problem, particularly because there is (IIRC) little or no slack in global refinery capacity either, so it's difficult to make up the difference. That really would have been bad if Houston were substituted for New Orleans because about half of the US refinery capacity is just east of Houston. Rationing may actually have been needed.or gas prices up to $6.00/gal. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Aug 31, 2005, at 8:37 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it's not exactly true [*] that no new refinery was build, because those that exist are upgraded regularly to 2x, 4x, etc their initial capacity. Alberto Monteiro This is absolutely true, and something I said a few minutes ago in a talk with my Mom on this same topic. It is also true, though, that despite these improvements in capacity, US refining capacity was running flat-out even before Katrina, and this is not a good thing and something that really needed to be alleviated with some new construction. Or a more sensible approach to gasoline usage, such as not owning SUVs, not driving to a corner store for a pack of cigarettes, or even to the grocery store a block or two away for eggs and milk. On the one hand it seems sensible to build more refineries and step up production. On the other it seems more sensible to reduce consumption. The difference between these views is that, eventually, consumption *will have to be* reduced, because petroleum is a finite non-renewable resource, and eventually it will be gone. This could be the *real* reason why no new refineries are being built. They might not have anything to refine, sooner than some people might expect. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ; I live 45 minutes from the office and 30 minutes from the stable; I have always tried to plan things like grocery shopping etc. to be 'on the way home.' Ouch! What type of books-on-tape do you listen to? None; I crank up the CD player and swish off into fantasy-land, where I might perform the perfect dressage routine, teach a student who goes on to be an Olympic rider, or help Jean-Luc save the galaxy...again. ;) William Taylor Never over a mile from the Circle-K I used to be an easy bike-hop from a grocery store; now I really need to think about what I might need before leaving the office or stable, 'cause I _ain't_ gonna drive the ~25 minutes round-trip to the nearest grocer's just because I forgot to get bread! Debbi who _really_ needs to pick up bread today __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas Prices
-Original Message- From: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 2:13 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Gas Prices At 01:54 PM 3/7/2004 -0800 Damon Agretto wrote: You also have to consider the cost-of-living factor. I know, FREX, that its overall cheaper to live in PA than in NJ. Gas sellers will only try to sell gas at the highest price they think the market will bear. It is also important to realize the full economics of gas. When you fill up your tank with gas, you aren't only paying for the extraction, refining, and transportation of the gasoline, plus some amount of taxes, but you are also contributing towards the lease of the land the gas station is on, the property taxes of the gas station, and the salaries of the employees. We have the additional cost for environmental training of gas pumpers (not ANYONE can pump gas in Oregon). Civilians are not alllowed to pump gas. It requires state certification. It is against the law to pump your own gas, or to even handle the pumps. Pump your own gas?... GO TO JAIL! It's the LAW!!! Is this the same in NJ? It translates to about an extra 10 cents per gallon. We are paying about 1.80-1.90 pg I drive a little car I like to call Pokey... but it was not built for getting good gas mileage. I average 21 MPG, with an average speed of 25 MPH using 91 octane gas (Premium). I can get better gas mileage if I modify the supercharger and override the computer programming.. but who cares... I'm not spending 100 bucks a week on gas like some commuters who drive Evil SUV's. Poor suckers paying 3 bucks a gallon this summer... I'll be laughing AT them! Nerd From Hell In New Jersey in particular, all gas stations are required to be full-serve by State Law, which is partly why the State keep the gas taxes lower. Likewise, the land-costs of the gas station will be much higher in an inner city than in an outer-suburb. Most gasoline is sold as a loss-leader by the gas station. This is particularly true in States like Pennsylvania and New Jersey where discount-marketers like WaWa, Wal-Mart, and Sheetz have helped drive down the price. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas Prices
Is this the same in NJ? It translates to about an extra 10 cents per gallon. We are paying about 1.80-1.90 pg Traditionally gas in NJ is cheaper than gas in PA. I don't know what the prices are now though, since I don't work in Jersey and have NO reason to go there (except to go to the shore, and its not beach weather yet...). One time I forgot where I was and started pumping gas myself in NJ. I wasn't arrested. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas Prices
At 03:24 PM 3/11/2004 -0800 Damon Agretto wrote: Is this the same in NJ? It translates to about an extra 10 cents per gallon. We are paying about 1.80-1.90 pg Traditionally gas in NJ is cheaper than gas in PA. As shown on the previous table, this is largely due to the significantly lower state gas taxes in NJ. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
John D. Giorgis wrote: At 09:08 AM 3/6/2004 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high Actually, $2.28 strikes me as a very reasonable price, especially once you include the damage your emissions from the burning of the gasoline are doing to the environment. Hardly reasonable compared to the rest of the civilised world :-) Cost here at present is approx A$1 per litre (US$3.50? per gal) and rising. Not quite as bad as UK. Poor William. Regards, Ray. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
4.73 USD/USGallon here (France) * Deborah Harrell [Sat, 06/03/2004 at 17:02 -0800] Debbi whose next car will be a hybrid fer sure -- Jean-Marc Who's looking for a used toyota prius ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Hardly reasonable compared to the rest of the civilised world :-) Cost here at present is approx A$1 per litre (US$3.50? per gal) and rising. Not quite as bad as UK. Poor William. Regards, Ray. Wouldn't that be related to gas taxes and production though? Anyone know the true cost of the gas? Not that gas taxes are bad; at least they are equally applied to road projects. Oh, fun numbers: http://www.gaspricewatch.com/USGas_index.asp State Tax/Cents per gallon State Tax/Cents per gallon Alabama 18 Montana 27.75 Alaska 8Nebraska 24.6 Arizona 18 Nevada 23 Arkansas 21.5 New Hampshire 18 California 18 New Jersey 14.5 Colorado 22 New Mexico 17 Connecticut 25 New York 29.65 Delaware 23 North Carolina 23.4 Dist. of Columbia 20 North Dakota 21 Florida 14.1 Ohio 22 Georgia 7.5 Oklahoma 17 Hawaii 16 Oregon 24 Idaho 25 Pennsylvania 25.9 Illinois 19 Rhode Island 30 Indiana 18 South Carolina 16.0 Iowa 20.1South Dakota 22 Kansas 23 Tennessee 20 Kentucky 15 Texas 20 Louisiana 20 Utah 24.5 Maine 22Vermont 20 Maryland 23.5 Virginia 17.5 Massachusetts 21.5 Washington 23 Michigan 19 West Virginia 20.5 Minnesota 20 Wisconsin 31.1 Mississippi 18 Wyoming 14 Missouri 17 Federal Tax Rate 18.4 No surprise, PA has 5th highest taxes. So why is gas cheaper? Prices for the cheapest octane, what I buy, in south central PA range from $1.58 at a discount member only station to $1.69. My 23mpg car needs a part that has not been located yet so driving 14mpg truck. I'm not against high gas prices. A women at work was complaining about them; yet she choose to buy a house 30+ miles from work, away from bus lines, and drives to her boyfriends house every weekend, a 300 mile round trip. Kevin T. - VRWC Bike ride time ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
No surprise, PA has 5th highest taxes. So why is gas cheaper? You also have to consider the cost-of-living factor. I know, FREX, that its overall cheaper to live in PA than in NJ. Gas sellers will only try to sell gas at the highest price they think the market will bear. Of course there's also healthy competition (within a 1 to 1.5mi radius from my house there are probably over a dozen gas stations, and this is in a heavily built up middle to upper class suburban area). Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 01:54 PM 3/7/2004 -0800 Damon Agretto wrote: You also have to consider the cost-of-living factor. I know, FREX, that its overall cheaper to live in PA than in NJ. Gas sellers will only try to sell gas at the highest price they think the market will bear. It is also important to realize the full economics of gas. When you fill up your tank with gas, you aren't only paying for the extraction, refining, and transportation of the gasoline, plus some amount of taxes, but you are also contributing towards the lease of the land the gas station is on, the property taxes of the gas station, and the salaries of the employees.In New Jersey in particular, all gas stations are required to be full-serve by State Law, which is partly why the State keep the gas taxes lower. Likewise, the land-costs of the gas station will be much higher in an inner city than in an outer-suburb. Most gasoline is sold as a loss-leader by the gas station. This is particularly true in States like Pennsylvania and New Jersey where discount-marketers like WaWa, Wal-Mart, and Sheetz have helped drive down the price. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high USD2.39 - I think ...That's assuming the gallon you guys are buying is 3.8litres. We have pretty much the cheapest fuel in Australia, with the lowest taxes of all the states, but unfortunately those taxes no longer go into the road improvements they were originally used for. Even here, there is still a very high proportion of government revenue in that price. The fuel prices are having very little effect on Australian driving. Car pooling is only prevalent because of congestion and parking problems, not fuel, and the two big growth segments in our motor industry is big performance cars (mostly V8s of around 340ci) and what you would call SUVs. (Our new car sales increased 10% last year, but SUV sales increased 40%). Hybrids are little more than a curious novelty purchased by government bodies wanting to look green. Cheers Russell Chapman Brisbane Australia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Russell Chapman wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high USD2.39 - I think ...That's assuming the gallon you guys are buying is 3.8litres. 3.785. :) I paid $1.559 a gallon for gas this afternoon. Stopping at the gas station about 10 miles away as opposed to the gas station 4 miles away (which is the nearest one) saved me $0.04 per gallon. (Both were on the way to where I was going.) Julia who got to relax for just a bit when she got there, too ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: Gas Prices How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high I'm paying about $1.48 up north. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 9:24 AM Subject: Re: Gas Prices - Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: Gas Prices How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high I'm paying about $1.48 up north. :-) That's a bit funny. G I live very close to where the gas is produced and distributed, and you live close to the company executives homes. Think that is a clue? G xponent Got My Handy Dandy Notebook And My Thinking Chair Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:08:20 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high http://tinyurl.com/yv6pj $2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Gas Prices On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:08:20 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high http://tinyurl.com/yv6pj $2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. OUCH I guess that picture wasn't an old file picture after all. Do you find the prices changing your driving habits? xponent Land Of Milk And Unleaded Plus Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high Last time I checked here, it was $1.699 per gallon for regular unleaded, and $1.799 for mid-grade, which I normally use. If the price stays that high for much longer, I may have to switch to the lower grade. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
At 09:08 AM 3/6/2004 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high Actually, $2.28 strikes me as a very reasonable price, especially once you include the damage your emissions from the burning of the gasoline are doing to the environment. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Gas Prices
$2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. Doug Where are you at Doug? Prices here in Central Ohio are $1.79. They did their typical Thursday morning price jump. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
On 6 Mar 2004, at 3:08 pm, Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high http://tinyurl.com/yv6pj About $5 here in the UK... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Aerospace is plumbing with the volume turned up. - John Carmack ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Gary Nunn wrote: $2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. Doug Where are you at Doug? Prices here in Central Ohio are $1.79. They did their typical Thursday morning price jump. S.F. bay area, Ca. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high -- In Korea, gas prices at the Army and Air Force Military Exchange Service (AAFES) Gas Station are $1.62 for 92 octane and $1.81 for 98. Prices on the Korean economy are about $3.50. Not sure of the octane as I NEVER buy there. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high $2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. OUCH Do you find the prices changing your driving habits? Land Of Milk And Unleaded Plus Maru Plain unleaded: $1.47 last Tues, but $1.59-65 today. I _can't_ change my drive-time; I live 45 minutes from the office and 30 minutes from the stable; I have always tried to plan things like grocery shopping etc. to be 'on the way home.' Debbi whose next car will be a hybrid fer sure __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
In a message dated 3/6/2004 6:03:57 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ; I live 45 minutes from the office and 30 minutes from the stable; I have always tried to plan things like grocery shopping etc. to be 'on the way home.' Debbi whose next car will be a hybrid fer sure Ouch! What type of books-on-tape do you listen to? William Taylor - Never over a mile from the Circle-K ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Debbi wrote: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high $2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. OUCH Do you find the prices changing your driving habits? Land Of Milk And Unleaded Plus Maru I've always tired to either carpool or take transit anyway, but if we get up to the $3 range I'll be trying even harder. Plain unleaded: $1.47 last Tues, but $1.59-65 today. I _can't_ change my drive-time; I live 45 minutes from the office and 30 minutes from the stable; I have always tried to plan things like grocery shopping etc. to be 'on the way home.' About an hour one way, if I'm carpooling and we can use the HOV lane. About 1:15 on transit but much more productive time (even if I sleep.) -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Gas in my area fluctuates fron $1.65 at BP to $1.69 at Mobil for the low grade stuff. whose next car will be a hybrid fer sure Ah if only they made a hybrid Jetta... Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Deborah Harrell wrote: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Seeberger wrote: How much are you paying in your part of the country? $1.56 or so down the street from me, but the picture on drudge that linked to the article below shows $2.28. Yikes, that is high $2.15 for regular here and predicted to hit $3 this summer. OUCH Do you find the prices changing your driving habits? Land Of Milk And Unleaded Plus Maru Plain unleaded: $1.47 last Tues, but $1.59-65 today. I _can't_ change my drive-time; I live 45 minutes from the office and 30 minutes from the stable; I have always tried to plan things like grocery shopping etc. to be 'on the way home.' Every time the gas prices go up, or there's an ozone action day, we get PSAs with advice on how to help. It always turns out I'm already doing everything I reasonably can in the recommendations. (With small children, going in instead of using the drive-through can be a nerve-wracking hassle, depending on number, age and temperament of the children and the parking situation.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gas Prices
Damon Agretto wrote: Ah if only they made a hybrid Jetta... A man after my own heart. :-) I currently drive a silver 2000 Jetta, and my previous car was a 1994 Jetta in some sort of weird eggplanty purple color. The one before that was a 1985 VW Golf, which drove very reliably for the whole time I owned it, even after I bashed in the front end in an accident. When I traded it in, it had 236,000 miles (sorry, Alberto!) on the odometer. I've had nothing but luck with Volkswagens so far, and if Volkswagen ever makes a hybrid -- or even better, a hydrogen fuel cell car -- I'll probably get it. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
