Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
At 09:10 AM Tuesday 11/6/2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 6 Nov 2007, at 14:47, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of Dionysus? Are there many megachurches of Dionysus in the USA? Aren't they called professional sports stadiums? Free Beer Night With Souvenir Bats To The First 1000 Fans Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
At 08:29 PM Monday 11/5/2007, jon louis mann wrote: I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that crawls among us and advertises itself by that name. I do not believe that Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the morality of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry as bleeding-heart liberalism today. Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most people who call themselves Good Christians today as he was among those who called themselves Good Jews back then. Dave What would the Jesus do if he were alive today? Woke up this mornin', turned on the t.v. set. there in livin' color, was somethin' I can't forget. This man was preachin' at me, yeah, layin' on the charm askin' me for twenty, with ten-thousand on his arm. He wore designer clothes, and a big smile on his face tellin' me salvation while they sang Amazin' Grace. Askin' me for money, when he had all the signs of wealth. I almost wrote a check out, yeah, then I asked myself (chorus) Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a fancy car? Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressin' room have a star? If He came back tomorrow, well there's somethin' I'd like to know Could ya tell me, Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His television show? Would Jesus be political if He came back to earth? Have His second home in Palm Springs, yeah, a try to hide His worth? Take money, from those poor folks, when He comes back again, and admit He's talked to all them preachers who say they been a talkin' to Him? (chorus) Just ask ya' self, Would He wear a pinky ring, Would He drive a fancy car? Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressing room have a star? If He came back tomorrow, well there's somethin' I'd like to know: Could ya tell me, would Jesus wear a Rolex, Would jesus wear a Rolex Would Jesus wear a Rolex On His television show-ooh-ooh? Ray Stevens Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
At 12:15 AM Tuesday 11/6/2007, Charlie Bell wrote: On 06/11/2007, at 12:51 PM, Dave Land wrote: I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that crawls among us and advertises itself by that name. As Gandhi said when asked what he thought of Western Civilization: It would be a good idea... and that's how I see modern religion, especially Christianity. I do not believe that Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the morality of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry as bleeding-heart liberalism today. Yep. Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most people who call themselves Good Christians today as he was among those who called themselves Good Jews back then. Certainly he would be unpopular. He'd certainly not recognise his teachings in the megachurches or the hatred of the Right as espoused by Coulter or Falwell or whatever. And the greed and shortsightedness of conservatism, I take it that conservatism has about as much relation to being truly conservative as religiosity has to actual religious belief and how those who believe should live their lives and relate to others? Terminology Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 07/11/2007, at 8:24 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Would jesus wear a Rolex Would Jesus wear a Rolex On His television show-ooh-ooh? You see the face on the tv screen Coming at you every sunday See that face on the billboard That man is me On the cover of the magazine Theres no question why Im smiling You buy a piece of paradise You buy a piece of me Ill get you everything you wanted Ill get you everything you need Dont need to believe in hereafter Just believe in me Cos jesus he knows me And he knows Im right Ive been talking to jesus all my life Oh yes he knows me And he knows Im right And hes been telling me Everything is alright I believe in the family With my ever loving wife beside me But she dont know about my girlfriend Or the man I met last night Do you believe in god Cos thats what Im selling And if you wanna get to heaven Ill see you right You wont even have to leave your house Or get outta your chair You dont even have to touch that dial Cos Im everywhere And jesus he knows me And he knows Im right Ive been talking to jesus all my life Oh yes he knows me And he knows Im right Well hes been telling me Everythings gonna be alright Wont find me practising what Im preaching Wont find me making no sacrifice But I can get you a pocketful of miracles If you promise to be good, try to be nice God will take good care of you Just do as I say, dont do as I do Im counting my blessings, Ive found true happiness Cos Im getting richer, day by day You can find me in the phone book, Just call my toll free number You can do it anyway you want Just do it right away Therell be no doubt in your mind Youll believe everything Im saying If you wanna get closer to him Get on your knees and start paying Cos jesus he knows me And he knows Im right Ive been talking to jesus all my life Oh yes he knows me And he knows Im right Well hes been telling me Everythings gonna be alright, alright Jesus he knows me Jesus he knows me, you know... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
At 12:18 AM Tuesday 11/6/2007, Charlie Bell wrote: Sure. Got a Temple of Pan in the back garden... Is that a darkroom where you develop BW film? If At First You Don't Succeed Tri-X Again Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religiosity correlates with poverty
Dan M wrote: Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Probably yes - which is another way of saying no :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 07/11/2007, at 12:32 PM, Dan M wrote: Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah or any athropomorphic deity... Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Yet again, a Dan Strawman. Nice. Translating disagreeing with this administration now into a generalisation across all countries ever is just lazy. But then. black and white is easier than shades of grey, isn't it. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:32, Dan M wrote: Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah or any athropomorphic deity... Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Clearly this should only be done if it's a good idea. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 7 Nov 2007, at 14:17, Julia Thompson wrote: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:32, Dan M wrote: Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah or any athropomorphic deity... Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Clearly this should only be done if it's a good idea. And who decides whether or not it's a good idea? The interfering country will probably think it's an excellent idea in most cases. The interfered-with country will probably not. It's OK if the interfering country is righteous but not if they're wrongeous. Droll Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 07/11/2007, at 8:18 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: I take it that conservatism has about as much relation to being truly conservative as religiosity has to actual religious belief and how those who believe should live their lives and relate to others? Yep, that's I'd probably agree with. Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Nov 7, 2007, at 9:20 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 7 Nov 2007, at 14:17, Julia Thompson wrote: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:32, Dan M wrote: Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah or any athropomorphic deity... Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Clearly this should only be done if it's a good idea. And who decides whether or not it's a good idea? The interfering country will probably think it's an excellent idea in most cases. The interfered-with country will probably not. It's OK if the interfering country is righteous but not if they're wrongeous. Droll Maru Drollitude is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. In answer to Dan's question, yes, I have stopped beating my wife. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:32, Dan M wrote: Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah or any athropomorphic deity... Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Clearly this should only be done if it's a good idea. And who decides whether or not it's a good idea? The interfering country will probably think it's an excellent idea in most cases. The interfered-with country will probably not. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of Dionysus? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 6 Nov 2007, at 14:47, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of Dionysus? Are there many megachurches of Dionysus in the USA? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
Doug said the following on 11/6/2007 12:49 AM: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Sounds like a perfectly reasonable evening with Bachus if you ask me. :-) Someone got a beer? --[Lance] -- Celebrate The Circle http://www.celebratethecircle.org/ Carolina Spirit Quest http://www.carolinaspiritquest.org/ My LiveJournal http://www.livejournal.com/users/labrown/ GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 6 Nov 2007, at 14:47, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of Dionysus? Are there many megachurches of Dionysus in the USA? No, but maybe there should be. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Nov 6, 2007, at 8:19 AM, Julia Thompson wrote: On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, William T Goodall wrote: On 6 Nov 2007, at 14:47, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of Dionysus? Are there many megachurches of Dionysus in the USA? No, but maybe there should be. :) Oh, but there are: turn on your TV, and see it preached. Consume! Drink! (but always responsibly) Buy! Sex it up! Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
Dave Land wrote: Are there many megachurches of Dionysus in the USA? No, but maybe there should be. :) Oh, but there are: turn on your TV, and see it preached. Consume! Drink! (but always responsibly) Buy! Sex it up! But then the god being worshipped is not Dionysus but Mammon. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 07/11/2007, at 1:47 AM, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of Dionysus? Only 7 hours late. ;-) Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religiosity correlates with poverty
Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah or any athropomorphic deity... Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever interfere with the internal affairs of another? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Religiosity correlates with poverty
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Land Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:51 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that crawls among us and advertises itself by that name. I do not believe that Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the morality of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry as bleeding-heart liberalism today. One of the most significant problems with stating what Christianity is about is the fact that it is human nature to project one's own views and desires upon God, right and wrong, etc. While I strongly differ with the idea that God is really Republican; I find the idea that Jesus and/or the early Christians was/were hippy communists. We don't have, of course, the historical Jesus available. We have the understanding of Jesus of the early Christian church, or at the perspective of the authors of the gospels, acts, the various epistles, and Revelations. We can obtain a fairly good sense of that understanding by applying scholarship. For example, even modest scholarship concerning the New Testament would lead one to understand that sexual morality was not a central theme of the New Testament. It is clear that the question of homosexuality gets no more than a passing mention in the New Testament. The authors had other questions central. The other thing that we can see is that there are multiple themes within Christian scripture. Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most people who call themselves Good ChristiansT today as he was among those who called themselves Good JewsT back then. Well, I don't think that Christians trying to be faithful would have the question of blasphemy to contend with. The time of Jesus was much more complex that one might get from growing up going to Sunday school. There is a wealth of literature after the end of the Old Testament that provides a context for the teachings of Jesus...as well as giving an accurate picture of the Jewish beliefs of the time. Add to that the complexity of the tension between the Galileans and the Judeans, between both of them and Rome, and the dynamics of a Roman empire that was 5% diaspora Jews, and one has a setting that does not lend itself to such simple saying. For example, the fact that Jewish rabbis were considered resources on ethics throughout the Roman Empire is worthwhile to know. The meaning of the Son of Man, which has significant verisimilitude as a term Jesus would use for himself is also very helpful in developing an understanding of Jesus. Without this, it is hard to not project oneself unto the Jesus and find that the heart of Christianity lies in what one tends to believe oneself. As Albert Schweitzer wrote: There is no historical task which so reveals a man's true self as the writing of a Life of Jesus. No vital force comes into the figure unless a man breathes into it all the hate or all the love of which he is capable... Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:05, Dan M wrote: Without this, it is hard to not project oneself unto the Jesus and find that the heart of Christianity lies in what one tends to believe oneself. As Albert Schweitzer wrote: There is no historical task which so reveals a man's true self as the writing of a Life of Jesus. No vital force comes into the figure unless a man breathes into it all the hate or all the love of which he is capable... It's like constructionism v purposivism! Do as I say not as I mean Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time. - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 05/11/2007, at 3:42 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? They'd think he was a pastor in a megachurch... Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 5 Nov 2007, at 09:18, Charlie Bell wrote: On 05/11/2007, at 3:42 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? They'd think he was a pastor in a megachurch... Only if he went cottaging in public toilets as well. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Nov 5, 2007, at 2:45 AM, William T Goodall wrote: On 5 Nov 2007, at 09:18, Charlie Bell wrote: On 05/11/2007, at 3:42 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? They'd think he was a pastor in a megachurch... Only if he went cottaging in public toilets as well. No, that would make him a Republican Senator. In answer to Ronn's question: They might well see him for what he is: a hypocrite. And, if they were willing to do so, they would see the hypocrisy in their own lives, and recognize the need in him and themselves to seek forgiveness and repentance. Otherwise, they might resort to self-righteousness and post carping replies to an Internet mailing list. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 06/11/2007, at 4:42 AM, Dave Land wrote: In answer to Ronn's question: They might well see him for what he is: a hypocrite. And, if they were willing to do so, they would see the hypocrisy in their own lives, and recognize the need in him and themselves to seek forgiveness and repentance. Otherwise, they might resort to self-righteousness and post carping replies to an Internet mailing list. Difference is, most people don't spend their lives telling other people how to live and then doing the opposite. Most people don't live up to the high values that are espoused by the fire-and-brimstone types, but they're not hypocrites either because they never claim they do. I have a drink, occasionally a few; had sex before marriage (both with my now wife and with others...); dabbled in drugs as a student and still enjoy a joint when there's one on offer; look at porn now and again; swear a bit (and as I grew up in London, use the odd word that is taboo elsewhere...); and so on. And I'm perfectly happy with who I am, because I don't claim to be anything else. I certainly don't claim to be living to some unachievable moral code that somehow at the same time manages to twist every good word attributed to Jesus into a barrage of hatred and lies, and back it up with becoming a caricature of those one professes to hate. I certainly don't sit on the telly and listen to people telling their stories about their own poverty and how they can't pay for the doctor for their sick wife/husband/child and tell them that a $50 offering to God (conveniently mailed via me) will solve their problems, and if it doesn't, well they weren't praying hard enough. Instead, I get involved in my community. At the moment, as well as the other stuff I'm doing, I'm growing a moustache for Movember. Proceeds if you sponsor my mo will go to beyondblue (a depression awareness and support charity) and the Australian Prostate Cancer foundation... If anyone here would like to sponsor me a few aussie dollars, let me know. And I'll make before-and- after pics of my mo available. Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 5 Nov 2007, at 23:41, Charlie Bell wrote: At the moment, as well as the other stuff I'm doing, I'm growing a moustache for Movember. Aaahhh! Wordplay Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On Nov 5, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Charlie Bell wrote: On 06/11/2007, at 4:42 AM, Dave Land wrote: In answer to Ronn's question: They might well see him for what he is: a hypocrite. And, if they were willing to do so, they would see the hypocrisy in their own lives, and recognize the need in him and themselves to seek forgiveness and repentance. Otherwise, they might resort to self-righteousness and post carping replies to an Internet mailing list. Difference is, most people don't spend their lives telling other people how to live and then doing the opposite. Most people don't live up to the high values that are espoused by the fire-and-brimstone types, but they're not hypocrites either because they never claim they do. Good answer: I misread Ronn's hypothetical as referring to someone like the mega-church preachers and right-wing gay-bashing types who seem to keep finding themselves in the beds of hookers and on their knees in airport bathrooms... I have a drink, occasionally a few; had sex before marriage (both with my now wife and with others...); dabbled in drugs as a student and still enjoy a joint when there's one on offer; look at porn now and again; swear a bit (and as I grew up in London, use the odd word that is taboo elsewhere...); and so on. And I'm perfectly happy with who I am, because I don't claim to be anything else. You describe most of the people I know, except for growing up in London, but that is easily explained because The sins of the fathers are visited upon their sons... I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that crawls among us and advertises itself by that name. I do not believe that Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the morality of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry as bleeding-heart liberalism today. Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most people who call themselves Good Christians™ today as he was among those who called themselves Good Jews™ back then. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 6 Nov 2007, at 01:51, Dave Land wrote: I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that crawls among us and advertises itself by that name. I do not believe that Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the morality of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry as bleeding-heart liberalism today. Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most people who call themselves Good Christians™ today as he was among those who called themselves Good Jews™ back then. It's ironic that a hippy communist creed of the poor and oppressed should be the primary religion of a wealthy consumerist nation like the USA. It does require some remarkable acts of interpretation. Love thy neighbour or we'll burn your village and enslave you Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 06/11/2007, at 12:51 PM, Dave Land wrote: I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that crawls among us and advertises itself by that name. As Gandhi said when asked what he thought of Western Civilization: It would be a good idea... and that's how I see modern religion, especially Christianity. I do not believe that Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the morality of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry as bleeding-heart liberalism today. Yep. Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most people who call themselves Good Christians™ today as he was among those who called themselves Good Jews™ back then. Certainly he would be unpopular. He'd certainly not recognise his teachings in the megachurches or the hatred of the Right as espoused by Coulter or Falwell or whatever. And the greed and shortsightedness of conservatism, whether it be the US, or the UK, or Australia would draw his ire as it did amongst the Pharisees. A good life is in how you treat others, especially those less fortunate. Giving more to those who have and taking from those who have not is not Christian. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 06/11/2007, at 4:49 PM, Doug wrote: Ronn! wrote: So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person believed in and which particular folks were making the observation? Sure. Got a Temple of Pan in the back garden... Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 4 Nov 2007 at 12:28, William T Goodall wrote: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258 Yes, strong. But strong is completely is *not* significant (statistically). Largely because of the USA, no, it's not significant. Nothing to see, move along. the weakest endorsement of democracy comes not from the Muslim world, but from Russia See, THAT is actually significant and interesting, especially given the Russian government's aggressive stance recently. AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 11/4/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258 Global publics are sharply divided over the relationship between religion and morality. In much of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, there is a strong consensus that belief in God is necessary for morality and good values. Throughout much of Europe, however, majorities think morality is achievable without faith. Meanwhile, opinions are more mixed in the Americas, including in the United States, where 57% say that one must believe in God to have good values and be moral, while 41% disagree. The question isn't even appropriate to Christianity. Even though there is no shortage of people who have the idea that Christianity's value is in making people moral, that's not what Christ taught. His strongest criticisms were aimed at the Moral Majority of his time, the self-righteous people. Christ was not a moralist, he was a savior. His message was about sacrifice much more than obedience. If you ask a survey question that's based on erroneous assumptions, the results don't mean what the pollsters intended. It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to believe that morality is achievable without belief in God. I wish more of us realized that. Then perhaps we'd spend more of our time and energy accepting people as they are, rather than trying to get them to shape up. But it took me many years to figure that out. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 4 Nov 2007, at 17:15, Nick Arnett wrote: On 11/4/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258 Global publics are sharply divided over the relationship between religion and morality. In much of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, there is a strong consensus that belief in God is necessary for morality and good values. Throughout much of Europe, however, majorities think morality is achievable without faith. Meanwhile, opinions are more mixed in the Americas, including in the United States, where 57% say that one must believe in God to have good values and be moral, while 41% disagree. The question isn't even appropriate to Christianity. Even though there is no shortage of people who have the idea that Christianity's value is in making people moral, that's not what Christ taught. His strongest criticisms were aimed at the Moral Majority of his time, the self-righteous people. Christ was not a moralist, he was a savior. His message was about sacrifice much more than obedience. How come 57% of Americans answered that question that way then? Presumably that's their understanding of Christianity even if it isn't yours (most Americans self-identify as Christian.) If you ask a survey question that's based on erroneous assumptions, the results don't mean what the pollsters intended. The survey doesn't make any assumptions - they asked the same questions in Muslim and Hindu and other countries. It's you that has the Christian bias. It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to believe that morality is achievable without belief in God. That's one less phony argument for religion anyway. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
At 11:15 AM Sunday 11/4/2007, Nick Arnett wrote: On 11/4/07, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258 Global publics are sharply divided over the relationship between religion and morality. In much of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, there is a strong consensus that belief in God is necessary for morality and good values. Throughout much of Europe, however, majorities think morality is achievable without faith. Meanwhile, opinions are more mixed in the Americas, including in the United States, where 57% say that one must believe in God to have good values and be moral, while 41% disagree. The question isn't even appropriate to Christianity. Even though there is no shortage of people who have the idea that Christianity's value is in making people moral, that's not what Christ taught. His strongest criticisms were aimed at the Moral Majority of his time, the self-righteous people. Christ was not a moralist, he was a savior. His message was about sacrifice much more than obedience. If you ask a survey question that's based on erroneous assumptions, the results don't mean what the pollsters intended. Note the definition used: begin quote Notes ¹Religiosity is measured using a three-item index ranging from 0-3, with 3 representing the most religious position. Respondents were given a 1 if they believe faith in God is necessary for morality; a 1 if they say religion is very important in their lives; and a 1 if they pray at least once a day. end quote It doesn't say if they were asked to rate the first two items on how strongly they agree with statements such as faith in God is necessary for morality and religion is very important in my life or if the responses there were simply binary choices 1 = agree and 0 = disagree as the third one most likely was 1 = I pray at least once every day/0 = I do not pray at once every day. It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to believe that morality is achievable without belief in God. How about the converse? (Other than in the James 2:19 sense.) I wish more of us realized that. Then perhaps we'd spend more of our time and energy accepting people as they are, rather than trying to get them to shape up. But it took me many years to figure that out. Nick -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
William wrote: How come 57% of Americans answered that question that way then? Presumably that's their understanding of Christianity even if it isn't yours (most Americans self-identify as Christian.) Hey, I'm happy that the numbers aren't worse. It means that we're only 7.x% from most people _not_ beliving such nonsense. Doug -- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 11/4/07, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to believe that morality is achievable without belief in God. How about the converse? (Other than in the James 2:19 sense.) Isn't that the most extreme case? In other words, certainly. -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
At 10:34 PM Sunday 11/4/2007, Nick Arnett wrote: On 11/4/07, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to believe that morality is achievable without belief in God. How about the converse? (Other than in the James 2:19 sense.) Isn't that the most extreme case? That's what I meant. In other words, certainly. So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
