Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hi, On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 11:40:32AM +0200, Jan Wielkiewicz wrote: > Dnia 2020-08-19, o godz. 10:41:42 Samuel Thibault > napisa??(a): > > There seems to be some move in there, see > > https://blog.rust-lang.org/2020/08/18/laying-the-foundation-for-rusts-future.html > Yes, I saw this, but nothing especially indicates they will make the > trademarks more user-friendly. FWIW, Mozilla has always been weird with trademarks... Having an independent foundation take charge instead certainly offers hope that the situation will improve down the road. -antrik-
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Richard Braun, le mar. 22 sept. 2020 13:28:42 +0200, a ecrit: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 06:39:29PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > One way to avoid the bug is to use the e1000 hardware network type. I > > guess the rtl8139 driver that we ship in netdde has a bug in its irq > > handling (we had already seen that kind of bug a long time ago in the > > IDE driver). Moving to rump-based network drivers will probably help > > fixing this kind of issue long-term :) > > It does seem to help. Thanks. > > For information, the virtual machines were using the pcnet device, > not the rtl8139 one. Could you set the e1000 type on ironforge as well? Thanks, Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 06:39:29PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > One way to avoid the bug is to use the e1000 hardware network type. I > guess the rtl8139 driver that we ship in netdde has a bug in its irq > handling (we had already seen that kind of bug a long time ago in the > IDE driver). Moving to rump-based network drivers will probably help > fixing this kind of issue long-term :) It does seem to help. Thanks. For information, the virtual machines were using the pcnet device, not the rtl8139 one. -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hello again: I've just found this page, of Redox OS project, which can be a good reference about how to structure the webpage in a useful way. https://www.redox-os.org/ It's a pretty simple webpage, mostly written in HTML, and maybe PHP. It includes a bit of javascript, but I think that It's perfectly possible to clone this style without the javascript code. The docs page follows a pretty simple (although beautiful, anyway) items organization, grouping most important things in a only page. https://www.redox-os.org/docs/ And the "book" section includes a very useful reader, with a good interface. Each page seems written using Markdown or any similar marked languages, and the background improves the readability. https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ This webpage could be a good reference to create a better Hurd webpage, with a simple interface without unnecessary "ornaments", which makes the beginning easier for the newcomers. This type of structure makes it easier to find documentation, and other interesting information about the project, added to be "attractive" to new people. what do you think? El mié., 9 sept. 2020 a las 20:47, escribió: > hi, > > 9 septembre 2020 20:04 "Nala Ginrut" a écrit: > > > Hi there! > > > > Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > > > >> Third question: > >> Do you have anything against Rust contributions into the project? My > >> friend is interested in contributing, but unfortunately in Rust, not C. > >> I wonder if rump drivers could be written in Rust, thanks > >> to the Hurd's modular architecture. > > > > Personally, I think it's a good idea to reborn Hurd in Rust, of course, > > in that case, it's not Hurd anymore, it'll be a new project with the > > spirit of Hurd. > > > > However, there're some pre-conditions before anyone can try this idea: > > > > 1. It'll be a great idea to use seL4 which is a better L4, and there's a > preliminary support > > in Rust. IIRC, it's a Rust binding of libsel4, you can extend the seL4 > > with Rust. But there're lot of missing things to do, compared to other > > more complete L4. > > > > 2. From GNU's perspective, we should definitely use gcc-rust, however, > > there's no mature Rust frontend in GCC. The good news is that someone > > are working on it, I'm one of the contributors. However, it's in a very > > slow progress. > > > > https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2020/04/28/recon the hydra cave: a > development note of rust on gcc > > (part 1) > > > > 3. I have some opinions on Hurd, here's my post, just personal premature > > ideas, some opinions maybe wrong, welcome to correct me: > > > > https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2019/12/11/hurd, sel4, thoughts > > > nice article :) > > > Best regards. > > > > -- > > GNU Powered it > > GPL Protected it > > GOD Blessed it > > HFG - NalaGinrut > > Fingerprint F53B 4C56 95B5 E4D5 6093 4324 8469 6772 846A 0058 > >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
hi, 9 septembre 2020 20:04 "Nala Ginrut" a écrit: > Hi there! > > Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > >> Third question: >> Do you have anything against Rust contributions into the project? My >> friend is interested in contributing, but unfortunately in Rust, not C. >> I wonder if rump drivers could be written in Rust, thanks >> to the Hurd's modular architecture. > > Personally, I think it's a good idea to reborn Hurd in Rust, of course, > in that case, it's not Hurd anymore, it'll be a new project with the > spirit of Hurd. > > However, there're some pre-conditions before anyone can try this idea: > > 1. It'll be a great idea to use seL4 which is a better L4, and there's a > preliminary support > in Rust. IIRC, it's a Rust binding of libsel4, you can extend the seL4 > with Rust. But there're lot of missing things to do, compared to other > more complete L4. > > 2. From GNU's perspective, we should definitely use gcc-rust, however, > there's no mature Rust frontend in GCC. The good news is that someone > are working on it, I'm one of the contributors. However, it's in a very > slow progress. > > https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2020/04/28/recon the hydra cave: a > development note of rust on gcc > (part 1) > > 3. I have some opinions on Hurd, here's my post, just personal premature > ideas, some opinions maybe wrong, welcome to correct me: > > https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2019/12/11/hurd, sel4, thoughts > nice article :) > Best regards. > > -- > GNU Powered it > GPL Protected it > GOD Blessed it > HFG - NalaGinrut > Fingerprint F53B 4C56 95B5 E4D5 6093 4324 8469 6772 846A 0058
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hi there! Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > Third question: > Do you have anything against Rust contributions into the project? My > friend is interested in contributing, but unfortunately in Rust, not C. > I wonder if rump drivers could be written in Rust, thanks > to the Hurd's modular architecture. Personally, I think it's a good idea to reborn Hurd in Rust, of course, in that case, it's not Hurd anymore, it'll be a new project with the spirit of Hurd. However, there're some pre-conditions before anyone can try this idea: 1. It'll be a great idea to use seL4 which is a better L4, and there's a preliminary support in Rust. IIRC, it's a Rust binding of libsel4, you can extend the seL4 with Rust. But there're lot of missing things to do, compared to other more complete L4. 2. From GNU's perspective, we should definitely use gcc-rust, however, there's no mature Rust frontend in GCC. The good news is that someone are working on it, I'm one of the contributors. However, it's in a very slow progress. https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2020/04/28/recon%20the%20hydra%20cave%3a%20a%20development%20note%20of%20rust%20on%20gcc%20%28part%201%29 3. I have some opinions on Hurd, here's my post, just personal premature ideas, some opinions maybe wrong, welcome to correct me: https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2019/12/11/hurd%2c%20sel4%2c%20thoughts Best regards. -- GNU Powered it GPL Protected it GOD Blessed it HFG - NalaGinrut Fingerprint F53B 4C56 95B5 E4D5 6093 4324 8469 6772 846A 0058 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Thanks! I suppose that pricing refers to how much it would cost to host your website on my GNU/Hurd servers. (Please bear in mind that I currently have 0 GNU/Hurd servers). :( Joshua -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
> Also, you might take some inspiration from my gnu-hurd.com website. It's beautiful!! :-) What do you refer to as "Pricing"? From where do you get this price? It's a curiosity El sáb., 5 sept. 2020 a las 15:27, Joshua Branson () escribió: > > Also, you might take some inspiration from my gnu-hurd.com website. > > https://notabug.org/jbranso/gnu-hurd.com > > -- > Joshua Branson > Sent from Emacs and Gnus > >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Also, you might take some inspiration from my gnu-hurd.com website. https://notabug.org/jbranso/gnu-hurd.com -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
I've just remembered that, in my document, I forgot to add information about how to compile GNU Mach and Hurd in the "How to contribute" section. For GNU Mach, you can get information here: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/microkernel/mach/gnumach/building.html This document is incomplete, and lacks information about cross-compile in configure step. You can find the correct configure line here: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/gnumach.git/tree/README For Hurd, you can get information here: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/building.html It's important advice about upstream Hurd could not works properly over Debian GNU/Hurd, so It's recommended only replace the modified translator, and check if this translator requires any patch from Debian (I don't know where check It). And this is all. I expect this info help you in your work into the website El mar., 25 ago. 2020 a las 20:02, Jan Wielkiewicz (< tona_kosmicznego_smie...@interia.pl>) escribió: > Dnia 2020-08-25, o godz. 00:04:58 > Almudena Garcia napisał(a): > > > Jan. I've just written a little draft to help you with the website. > > > > The draft includes some suggestions about index, and some sections > > like "getting started" (how to download, test, and install Hurd, > > putting Debian GNU/Hurd as example), and "how to contribute", with > > some tips about how to write code (follow the coding style), and how > > to generate a patch. > > > > I expect this draft can be useful for your work. > > > > Thanks, I'll check it out and I'll try starting working on the website > soon. I just have to finish some boring homework for my university > first. > > P.S. I look forward seeing your SMP code working in the Hurd :) > > > Jan Wielkiewicz >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Richard Braun, le ven. 28 août 2020 18:33:03 +0200, a ecrit: > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 06:51:27PM +0200, Jan Wielkiewicz wrote: > > Also navigation is too complicated and messy, searching doesn't work at > > all, because https://darnassus.sceen.net/cgi-bin/hurd-web is dead half > > of the time. > > Any special wishes? > > By the way, the main reason why that website is so often unreachable is > netdde freezing. I've restored an old trick I used in the past to mitigate > the problem, which is merely a cron script that kills it every hour. > > If you want that to improve, someone will have to hunt that bug down. One way to avoid the bug is to use the e1000 hardware network type. I guess the rtl8139 driver that we ship in netdde has a bug in its irq handling (we had already seen that kind of bug a long time ago in the IDE driver). Moving to rump-based network drivers will probably help fixing this kind of issue long-term :) Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 06:51:27PM +0200, Jan Wielkiewicz wrote: > Also navigation is too complicated and messy, searching doesn't work at > all, because https://darnassus.sceen.net/cgi-bin/hurd-web is dead half > of the time. > Any special wishes? By the way, the main reason why that website is so often unreachable is netdde freezing. I've restored an old trick I used in the past to mitigate the problem, which is merely a cron script that kills it every hour. If you want that to improve, someone will have to hunt that bug down. -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-25, o godz. 00:04:58 Almudena Garcia napisał(a): > Jan. I've just written a little draft to help you with the website. > > The draft includes some suggestions about index, and some sections > like "getting started" (how to download, test, and install Hurd, > putting Debian GNU/Hurd as example), and "how to contribute", with > some tips about how to write code (follow the coding style), and how > to generate a patch. > > I expect this draft can be useful for your work. > Thanks, I'll check it out and I'll try starting working on the website soon. I just have to finish some boring homework for my university first. P.S. I look forward seeing your SMP code working in the Hurd :) Jan Wielkiewicz
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan. I've just written a little draft to help you with the website. The draft includes some suggestions about index, and some sections like "getting started" (how to download, test, and install Hurd, putting Debian GNU/Hurd as example), and "how to contribute", with some tips about how to write code (follow the coding style), and how to generate a patch. I expect this draft can be useful for your work. El jue., 20 ago. 2020 a las 23:24, Jan Wielkiewicz (< tona_kosmicznego_smie...@interia.pl>) escribió: > Dnia 2020-08-20, o godz. 18:06:02 > Richard Braun napisał(a): > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:19:56PM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > > But, about the website, if I remember well, this thread started > > > because of an offer to update the website. > > > Why don't we accept the offer? > > > > > > It's a bad idea to reject this type of offer only for prejudices > > > about the attractive. > > > > The help was not refused. Samuel actually said it's all fine after > > clarifying a few things. > > > > > As I told before, I know many people who reject Hurd after showing > > > some interest, simply because the webpage seems to show a dead > > > project (search about "halo effect") > > > Not only because of the latest news, but the 90s style appearance > > > of the website, and the outdated documentation. > > > > Who's prejudiced now ? And if we're going that way, then the point I > > was making in my previous message, which I hoped you would have > > understood, is that I don't want to work with people who give up > > because it takes them more than a few seconds to find information, or > > who evaluate a project based on the look of its web site. You're > > mentioning the halo effect and you're right, I'd much rather work > > with people who have as few cognitive biases as possible, so call me > > prejudiced against the others if you want, at least I have a strong > > argument for my case. > > > > Please stop arguing, everyone. > I already made some notes about how to make the web page more readable, > we'll be judging the effects when its done. > Don't waste more time on arguing than it's worth. > > As for Samuel's and yours opinion about people with cognitive biases, > etc, remember not everyone who visits the page is a system developer - > sometimes an unrelated person can visit the page. In this case if that > person finds the web page interesting (even due to cognitive bias), > there's a possibility the person will tell others about the finding. > If the web page looks bad, abandoned, isn't convincing, then the person > just won't care or even worse, will tell others the Hurd is abandonware. > There's a small chance an incompetent person will tell their more > competent friends about it, and that's our chance. > All I want to do is to increase the probability. > > > Jan Wielkiewicz > # GNU Hurd website ## Index 1. Introduction to the Hurd 2. Getting starter (for users) 3. How to contribute (for developers) 4. Documentation 1. How It works: Hurd architecture 2. Developer docs: 1. Source code: list of files and functions 2. Deep details about Hurd and Mach ### Getting started GNU/Hurd is in active development, and is not stable enough to be used in production environments. Anyway, you can test GNU/Hurd in virtual machine, and in a some old PCs. Some GNU/Linux distributions, like Debian, Arch or Guix, have variants based in Hurd. To start with Hurd, we recomments to use Debian GNU/Hurd. Debian GNU/Hurd ## Prebuilt images for virtual machines To give Debian GNU/Hurd a try, it is probably easier to simply run the preinstalled image, which is provided here: $ wget http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/10.0/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.xz $ tar xJf debian-hurd.img.tar.xz All the debian-hurd.img* files are the same, they are just in various format, because it has been reported that some tools are not able to cope with the sparse tar format. The .tar.xz is still the preferred, as it will produce a sparse file on your disk. You can compare the resulting .img file with the MD5SUMS file It can be run directly in qemu/kvm (make sure that you can access /dev/kvm to get full KVM speed): $ kvm -m 1G -drive file=debian-hurd*.img,cache=writeback It is often convenient to connect through ssh to the box, instead of logging on the console, this can be done by forwarding the ssh port: $ kvm -net user,hostfwd=tcp:127.0.0.1:-:22 -net nic -drive file=debian-hurd*.img,cache=writeback -m 1G and then you can connect through ssh: ssh demo@localhost -p (don't forget to first set a password for the demo user) One can increase the size of the image with e.g.: $ qemu-img resize debian-hurd*.img +5G $ parted debian-hurd*.img (parted) resizepart 2 100% (parted) quit $ sudo losetup -o $((512*1953792)) /dev/loop0 debian-hurd*.img $ sudo resize2fs /dev/loop0 $ sudo losetup -d /dev/loop0 (1953792 is the start sector
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 01:28:42AM +0200, Richard Braun wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:10:53PM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > We have to leave the 90s ideas, and think as younger people thinks nowadays I mean, really, you have to keep in mind that the Hurd originated in the 80s/90s, and is meant to be compatible with a system that dates from the 70s. So what is this nonsense about "90s ideas" ? -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:24:50PM +0200, Jan Wielkiewicz wrote: > Please stop arguing, everyone. > I already made some notes about how to make the web page more readable, > we'll be judging the effects when its done. > Don't waste more time on arguing than it's worth. This discussion relates to the culture of the project itself, so I don't think it's wasted. > As for Samuel's and yours opinion about people with cognitive biases, > etc, remember not everyone who visits the page is a system developer - > sometimes an unrelated person can visit the page. In this case if that > person finds the web page interesting (even due to cognitive bias), > there's a possibility the person will tell others about the finding. > If the web page looks bad, abandoned, isn't convincing, then the person > just won't care or even worse, will tell others the Hurd is abandonware. > There's a small chance an incompetent person will tell their more > competent friends about it, and that's our chance. > All I want to do is to increase the probability. My point isn't to have a bad looking web site, just not to turn it into something that it shouldn't be for all kinds of stupid reasons. I personally like what you wrote so far about your intentions. -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:10:53PM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > I don't want to work with people who give up because it takes them > > more than a few seconds to find information, or who evaluate a project > > based on the look of its web site. > This is a prejudice, in fact. The definition of a prejudice includes "not being based on reason or actual experience". That doesn't apply here. > If we want to attract new users who can become contributors, we have to > make the beginning and the initial steps as easy as we can. > You talk about "a few seconds" to find information but, when you are a > noob, these searches can take hours or even days, because you don't know > what is the term to search. > If the website is user-friendly, this type of "explorers" can quickly find > all the information about this project, and even know new details that this > person doesn't know about. Again, you're mixing "beautiful" and "useful". In any big code base, it's perfectly normal for a newcomer to spend hours or even days looking for obscure pieces of information without an interactive way to get your answer (think mailing list or mentor). Anyone who expects things to happen more quickly and gives up is very likely not willing to make the proper effort to get things right in their code afterwards. > If the website looks "modern" (not necessarily following the latest hype, > simply "elegant"), this explorer will think that the project is in active > development and It feels attracted to continue researching about this. > If the website looks ugly and old, the explorer will think that the project > is mostly dead, and doesn't take the effort to continue the research. Tell me the state of the Hurd project again ? I think the web site is pretty honest about that. If I were a newcomer looking at a "beautiful" web site, whatever that would be, and found an old code base with roughly one serious maintainer and a few contributors here and there, I'd get to think the project is vaporware with good marketing and feel pretty cheated, and may not want to go on further either. > We have to leave the 90s ideas, and think as younger people thinks nowadays > (It don't refers to think as a teenager, simply remove elitists ideas and > prejudices about "who merit work in this project") I don't see why the "90s ideas", whatever you're referring to, must be abandoned. I don't see why "we" should adapt to how younger people think, especially considering how many I know do think (or, really, don't). I do claim to be an elitist for a project such as the Hurd, in so far as I am convinced that the project failed in no small part because the initial code was written by someone who just wasn't good enough for the task, unlike a project like, say, Linux. Finally, it's not about merit, it's about who can make the project progress well and who can't. I claim that, for the most part, people who are not willing to make serious efforts should just stay away. The Hurd is already buggy enough as it is and this is not a school. -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-19, o godz. 23:48:26 Samuel Thibault napisał(a): > Jan Wielkiewicz, le lun. 17 août 2020 01:33:41 +0200, a ecrit: > > > I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*. > > > > > Life is often about accidents, not about reasoning. > > Discovering something by accident, yes. But deciding to have a look at > some project only because the website is all shiny, no, I do not > understand. Actually almost the contrary in my case, if I see a shiny > website telling me "this is great software!", I become all wary, for > fear of overzealous marketting. Don't worry, no marketing, I hate marketing myself. My favorite example of malicious marketing is Apple telling its customers about privacy :) Let's just encourage contributors a bit and show the *actual* state of the project on the website - updated news and a link to commits will do. > > > Which headaches precisely? > > I mean a situation where we reorganise everything and no one knows > > where something is located. > > Please keep more mail context, I had to dig back on this one. I still > don't understand what you mean here. Nevermind, nothing important, I just can't explain it in English. > > > Again, that's only my own opinion, and what my limited amount of > > > free time can permit, I'm sorry that it looks so negative. If > > > other people can help with this, feel free, it's an open project, > > > I'm just warning what I have seen happening in the past decade. > > We'll experiment with the page in a private git repository and if > > the results will be good, we will think about the rest later. > > Great! > > Samuel Jan Wielkiewicz
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-20, o godz. 18:06:02 Richard Braun napisał(a): > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:19:56PM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > But, about the website, if I remember well, this thread started > > because of an offer to update the website. > > Why don't we accept the offer? > > > > It's a bad idea to reject this type of offer only for prejudices > > about the attractive. > > The help was not refused. Samuel actually said it's all fine after > clarifying a few things. > > > As I told before, I know many people who reject Hurd after showing > > some interest, simply because the webpage seems to show a dead > > project (search about "halo effect") > > Not only because of the latest news, but the 90s style appearance > > of the website, and the outdated documentation. > > Who's prejudiced now ? And if we're going that way, then the point I > was making in my previous message, which I hoped you would have > understood, is that I don't want to work with people who give up > because it takes them more than a few seconds to find information, or > who evaluate a project based on the look of its web site. You're > mentioning the halo effect and you're right, I'd much rather work > with people who have as few cognitive biases as possible, so call me > prejudiced against the others if you want, at least I have a strong > argument for my case. > Please stop arguing, everyone. I already made some notes about how to make the web page more readable, we'll be judging the effects when its done. Don't waste more time on arguing than it's worth. As for Samuel's and yours opinion about people with cognitive biases, etc, remember not everyone who visits the page is a system developer - sometimes an unrelated person can visit the page. In this case if that person finds the web page interesting (even due to cognitive bias), there's a possibility the person will tell others about the finding. If the web page looks bad, abandoned, isn't convincing, then the person just won't care or even worse, will tell others the Hurd is abandonware. There's a small chance an incompetent person will tell their more competent friends about it, and that's our chance. All I want to do is to increase the probability. Jan Wielkiewicz
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Almudena Garcia, le jeu. 20 août 2020 23:10:53 +0200, a ecrit: > We have to leave the 90s ideas, and think as younger people thinks nowadays > (It > don't refers to think as a teenager, simply remove elitists ideas and > prejudices about "who merit work in this project") It's not a question of merit, but a question of patience. If new generations have a problem with being patient, they will have a problem with making computers work at all. Operating systems things *require* attention and patience, there is no shortcut around it. If we don't manage to warn new generations about it, they will learn it the very hard way by suffering from odd bugs that happen randomly and with nobody out there able to fix them. Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
> I don't want to work with people who give up because it takes them > more than a few seconds to find information, or who evaluate a project > based on the look of its web site. This is a prejudice, in fact. If we want to attract new users who can become contributors, we have to make the beginning and the initial steps as easy as we can. You talk about "a few seconds" to find information but, when you are a noob, these searches can take hours or even days, because you don't know what is the term to search. If the website is user-friendly, this type of "explorers" can quickly find all the information about this project, and even know new details that this person doesn't know about. If the website looks "modern" (not necessarily following the latest hype, simply "elegant"), this explorer will think that the project is in active development and It feels attracted to continue researching about this. If the website looks ugly and old, the explorer will think that the project is mostly dead, and doesn't take the effort to continue the research. We have to leave the 90s ideas, and think as younger people thinks nowadays (It don't refers to think as a teenager, simply remove elitists ideas and prejudices about "who merit work in this project") El jue., 20 ago. 2020 a las 18:06, Richard Braun () escribió: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:19:56PM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > But, about the website, if I remember well, this thread started because > of > > an offer to update the website. > > Why don't we accept the offer? > > > > It's a bad idea to reject this type of offer only for prejudices about > the > > attractive. > > The help was not refused. Samuel actually said it's all fine after > clarifying a few things. > > > As I told before, I know many people who reject Hurd after showing some > > interest, simply because the webpage seems to show a dead project (search > > about "halo effect") > > Not only because of the latest news, but the 90s style appearance of the > > website, and the outdated documentation. > > Who's prejudiced now ? And if we're going that way, then the point I was > making in my previous message, which I hoped you would have understood, > is that I don't want to work with people who give up because it takes them > more than a few seconds to find information, or who evaluate a project > based on the look of its web site. You're mentioning the halo effect and > you're right, I'd much rather work with people who have as few cognitive > biases as possible, so call me prejudiced against the others if you want, > at least I have a strong argument for my case. > > -- > Richard Braun >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 03:19:56PM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > But, about the website, if I remember well, this thread started because of > an offer to update the website. > Why don't we accept the offer? > > It's a bad idea to reject this type of offer only for prejudices about the > attractive. The help was not refused. Samuel actually said it's all fine after clarifying a few things. > As I told before, I know many people who reject Hurd after showing some > interest, simply because the webpage seems to show a dead project (search > about "halo effect") > Not only because of the latest news, but the 90s style appearance of the > website, and the outdated documentation. Who's prejudiced now ? And if we're going that way, then the point I was making in my previous message, which I hoped you would have understood, is that I don't want to work with people who give up because it takes them more than a few seconds to find information, or who evaluate a project based on the look of its web site. You're mentioning the halo effect and you're right, I'd much rather work with people who have as few cognitive biases as possible, so call me prejudiced against the others if you want, at least I have a strong argument for my case. -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
> The reason the Hurd doesn't have a good web site, or good documentation, or good performance, or > good device support, etc..., is the same as always : too few people. But, about the website, if I remember well, this thread started because of an offer to update the website. Why don't we accept the offer? It's a bad idea to reject this type of offer only for prejudices about the attractive. > I'm pretty sure changing the web site won't change much to that, there > needs to be some momentum to bootstrap the first changes in what people > care most about (which for me is a much more reliable system than what > it currently is, or could be without too much effort) and then it'll > attract people. As I told before, I know many people who reject Hurd after showing some interest, simply because the webpage seems to show a dead project (search about "halo effect") Not only because of the latest news, but the 90s style appearance of the website, and the outdated documentation. About docs, these days I've been seeing a mail thread about someone which is working to update this. El jue., 20 ago. 2020 a las 9:29, Richard Braun () escribió: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 02:32:03AM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > > Every year or couple of year has its own marketting trend, and if you > > > don't follow it each time (thus consuming your time just for that), > > In fact, It's not necessary to follow the hype about a technology or a > > trend. > > But It's not necessary to follow the hype to create a beautiful webpage. > > The current page is many 90s style. > > The FSF webpage (https://www.fsf.org/) is more beautiful than the > current > > Hurd webpage, for example. The GNU project's main website ( > > https://www.gnu.org/) is a good example too. > > As Samuel said, don't mix "beautiful" and "useful" or even "easy to use". > State the subject clearly and stick to it. The reason the Hurd doesn't > have a good web site, or good documentation, or good performance, or > good device support, etc..., is the same as always : too few people. > > I'm pretty sure changing the web site won't change much to that, there > needs to be some momentum to bootstrap the first changes in what people > care most about (which for me is a much more reliable system than what > it currently is, or could be without too much effort) and then it'll > attract people. > > To all who whine about information not being easy to find : sure, it > could be better, but it's there, so if people give up that quickly, I > believe it says more about our current culture, or even the character > of these people, than it says about the project itself. Grow up and > focus on what matters. > > -- > Richard Braun >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 02:32:03AM +0200, Almudena Garcia wrote: > > Every year or couple of year has its own marketting trend, and if you > > don't follow it each time (thus consuming your time just for that), > In fact, It's not necessary to follow the hype about a technology or a > trend. > But It's not necessary to follow the hype to create a beautiful webpage. > The current page is many 90s style. > The FSF webpage (https://www.fsf.org/) is more beautiful than the current > Hurd webpage, for example. The GNU project's main website ( > https://www.gnu.org/) is a good example too. As Samuel said, don't mix "beautiful" and "useful" or even "easy to use". State the subject clearly and stick to it. The reason the Hurd doesn't have a good web site, or good documentation, or good performance, or good device support, etc..., is the same as always : too few people. I'm pretty sure changing the web site won't change much to that, there needs to be some momentum to bootstrap the first changes in what people care most about (which for me is a much more reliable system than what it currently is, or could be without too much effort) and then it'll attract people. To all who whine about information not being easy to find : sure, it could be better, but it's there, so if people give up that quickly, I believe it says more about our current culture, or even the character of these people, than it says about the project itself. Grow up and focus on what matters. -- Richard Braun
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Samuel Thibault writes: > Almudena Garcia, le jeu. 20 août 2020 00:03:08 +0200, a ecrit: >> > But deciding to have a look at some project only because the website is all >> > shiny, no. >> It is more important than you're thinking now. > > AGAIN I'm saying it's not "important". What I'm saying is that I don't > understand the *reasoning* behind people actually thinking that an > all-shiny website truly means a technically sound project. I think what people react to is the feeling that the developers care. A shiny website suggests that the developers care about getting new users. An trendy website suggests that devevelopment is active right now — similar to a news section where the last entry is from the current year. Best wishes, Arne -- Unpolitisch sein heißt politisch sein ohne es zu merken signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
> Every year or couple of year has its own marketting trend, and if you > don't follow it each time (thus consuming your time just for that), In fact, It's not necessary to follow the hype about a technology or a trend. But It's not necessary to follow the hype to create a beautiful webpage. The current page is many 90s style. The FSF webpage (https://www.fsf.org/) is more beautiful than the current Hurd webpage, for example. The GNU project's main website ( https://www.gnu.org/) is a good example too. So, It's possible to make a beautiful and useful webpage, without following the latest trends and hype. El jue., 20 ago. 2020 a las 0:20, Samuel Thibault () escribió: > Almudena Garcia, le jeu. 20 août 2020 00:03:08 +0200, a ecrit: > > > But deciding to have a look at some project only because the website > is all > > > shiny, no. > > It is more important than you're thinking now. > > AGAIN I'm saying it's not "important". What I'm saying is that I don't > understand the *reasoning* behind people actually thinking that an > all-shiny website truly means a technically sound project. > > Yes, the website probably needs some reorganization so that newcomers > find the information they need more easily etc. I'm not talking about > this. > > I'm talking about the flurry of cosmetic *trends* I see on all websites. > Every year or couple of year has its own marketting trend, and if you > don't follow it each time (thus consuming your time just for that), > you'd be considered "old" and "ugly". It's that haste, completely > unrelated to the actual content of the website that I just don't > understand from people with a more evolved brain than monkeys have. > > Samuel >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Almudena Garcia, le jeu. 20 août 2020 00:03:08 +0200, a ecrit: > > But deciding to have a look at some project only because the website is all > > shiny, no. > It is more important than you're thinking now. AGAIN I'm saying it's not "important". What I'm saying is that I don't understand the *reasoning* behind people actually thinking that an all-shiny website truly means a technically sound project. Yes, the website probably needs some reorganization so that newcomers find the information they need more easily etc. I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about the flurry of cosmetic *trends* I see on all websites. Every year or couple of year has its own marketting trend, and if you don't follow it each time (thus consuming your time just for that), you'd be considered "old" and "ugly". It's that haste, completely unrelated to the actual content of the website that I just don't understand from people with a more evolved brain than monkeys have. Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
> But deciding to have a look at some project only because the website is all shiny, no. It is more important than you're thinking now. So many times, when I talk about Hurd with friends, my friends are afraid because the website is old, ugly, out-of-date, and very confusing. All the time I have to search and share with them the exact links of the main pages (FAQ, docs, latest Debian GNU/Hurd image, Debian GNU/Hurd installing tips...). I wrote my own tutorials for these people, because they usually aren't able to find information about how to install, how to use... etc, in an easy way. Many times, some friend who has been interested in Hurd, left the idea of using that system due to these difficulties. So yes, renew and doing the web more accessible and attractive is very important to get attract new users and contributors El mié., 19 ago. 2020 a las 23:48, Samuel Thibault () escribió: > Jan Wielkiewicz, le lun. 17 août 2020 01:33:41 +0200, a ecrit: > > > I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*. > > > > > Life is often about accidents, not about reasoning. > > Discovering something by accident, yes. But deciding to have a look at > some project only because the website is all shiny, no, I do not > understand. Actually almost the contrary in my case, if I see a shiny > website telling me "this is great software!", I become all wary, for > fear of overzealous marketting. > > > > Which headaches precisely? > > I mean a situation where we reorganise everything and no one knows > > where something is located. > > Please keep more mail context, I had to dig back on this one. I still > don't understand what you mean here. > > > > Again, that's only my own opinion, and what my limited amount of free > > > time can permit, I'm sorry that it looks so negative. If other people > > > can help with this, feel free, it's an open project, I'm just warning > > > what I have seen happening in the past decade. > > We'll experiment with the page in a private git repository and if the > > results will be good, we will think about the rest later. > > Great! > > Samuel > >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Joshua Branson, le mar. 18 août 2020 10:25:17 -0400, a ecrit: > Samuel Thibault writes: > > Jan Wielkiewicz, le dim. 16 août 2020 21:00:26 +0200, a ecrit: > >> > More than a grant, it's people that we would need (yes, a grant could > >> > help here but in the end it's people that matter). > >> I believe the website could help here, explanation below. > > May I suggest we make a business out of the GNU/Hurd? I don't think we really can, for various reasons I don't really have time to explain in details, but basically we can't claim the GNU/Hurd is actually secure (even if the principles are really good for security, AFAIK nobody has made an actual security review over the code), it is slower than Linux, it doesn't support SMP yet, etc. I don't see how we could be competitive with anything that is currently on the market already. > I'm not proposing that I own the project or > the direction the GNU/Hurd takes. Samuel is our fearless leader! I'm not, actually. (I'm not even a Hurd maintainer officially) Note that I'm really talking about the *lead* part, not the maintenance part. Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz, le lun. 17 août 2020 01:33:41 +0200, a ecrit: > > I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*. > > > Life is often about accidents, not about reasoning. Discovering something by accident, yes. But deciding to have a look at some project only because the website is all shiny, no, I do not understand. Actually almost the contrary in my case, if I see a shiny website telling me "this is great software!", I become all wary, for fear of overzealous marketting. > > Which headaches precisely? > I mean a situation where we reorganise everything and no one knows > where something is located. Please keep more mail context, I had to dig back on this one. I still don't understand what you mean here. > > Again, that's only my own opinion, and what my limited amount of free > > time can permit, I'm sorry that it looks so negative. If other people > > can help with this, feel free, it's an open project, I'm just warning > > what I have seen happening in the past decade. > We'll experiment with the page in a private git repository and if the > results will be good, we will think about the rest later. Great! Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-19, o godz. 10:41:42 Samuel Thibault napisał(a): > There seems to be some move in there, see > > https://blog.rust-lang.org/2020/08/18/laying-the-foundation-for-rusts-future.html Yes, I saw this, but nothing especially indicates they will make the trademarks more user-friendly. Someone familiar with trademark law should probably contact them after the foundation is ready. > Samuel Jan Wielkiewicz
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz, le dim. 16 août 2020 21:00:26 +0200, a ecrit: > Dnia 2020-08-16, o godz. 16:39:12 > Samuel Thibault napisał(a): > > That being said, see fsf's concern about the "rust" trademark: > > https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Rust > If this is the case, this needs to be also solved in Guix. There seems to be some move in there, see https://blog.rust-lang.org/2020/08/18/laying-the-foundation-for-rusts-future.html Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > Dnia 2020-08-16, o godz. 09:44:38 > Joshua Branson napisał(a): >> I'll email the leader the libre-risc-v and let him know about the >> libre-soc.org website. Those guys should work together! > They're the same actually :) > They changed the name, because they abandoned(?) the idea of using > Risc-V as the Risc-V foundation was hostine towards libre development. > https://lists.libre-soc.org/pipermail/libre-riscv-dev/2019-October/003035.html > OpenPOWER foundation is just more cooperative. What! No way! How about that shiny Alaskan asparagus tips! I did not know! > >> >> I'm fairly certain that the Hurd developers would agree with you in >> this. I believe that they would love it for the Hurd to work on >> numerous architectures. I believe that the Hurd's glibc's port to >> OpenPower, will need to be completed. For the more technical porting >> details, you'll have to ask the other Hurd devs. I believe that this >> is quite an involved task. :) >> > I just wanted to make sure people are aware of this project, I'm not > competent enough to work on this task, but maybe in the future. I believe in you. "You are stronger than you feel, braver than you know, wiser beyond your years. Where-ever you go, there's something that you must always remember, I'll always be with you." - Winnie the Pooh >> Again, I'm speculating here, but Samuel might be ok with this. I >> don't know how well rust support is in the Hurd. You might have to >> port rust to the Hurd, which is non-trivial. I think we are still >> working on getting Go to work on the Hurd. :) > I don't like Rust (yet) nor Go, but I think the project could gain from > using these new languages, just because they're *brand new* and popular > right now - people are looking for projects to contribute to gain > experience and have fun. Have you heard about zig yet? It's a language that is faster than C! Now it depends on LLVM, and we would rather have it depend on GCC. But maybe you could write a zig alternative that is powered by GCC? https://ziglang.org/ > >> -- >> Joshua Branson >> Sent from Emacs and Gnus >> > > I have to try sending my mails from Emacs one day https://video.hardlimit.com/videos/watch/22b0af22-f1b3-469c-b09b-65e82b3f9643 That'll give you some tips...Most serious GNU maintainers tend to use Gnus. I use Gnus, because I want to be just like Samuel :) And Ludo :). And John Wigley! John Wigley has his Gnus set up, so that, he can say, "I do not want to hear from this email thread, unless my name is specifically mentioned again." I personally am still figuring out how to get searching in Gnus working. :) > > Jan Wielkiewicz -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > Dnia 2020-08-17, o godz. 00:07:25 > Samuel Thibault napisał(a): > >> I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*. >> > Life is often about accidents, not about reasoning. I discovered GNU by > an accident, because of a proprietary game. Sounds stupid, but this is > the reality. > Do ya'll want to know how I found out about GNU? hahaha. I was reading Linus Torvald's C standards in the Linux kernel documentation. In it he said, "Go and read the GNU coding standards. Then burn the documents. It'll be a good symbolic gesture." hahaha. I went to the gnu.org website, and I completely agree with Dr. Stallman and the FSF position over Linus's non-copyleft. :) >> >> There is no reason why we should have to chase the >> latest-shiny-brighty design trends (which basically means revamping >> the website every year or two) only to express that the project >> continues. > I just want to make the website cleaner to read and more informative, > that's it. I believe the current state is the opposite. I would tend to agree with this. Sometimes information is duplicated. etc. What you could do, is show off the wiki to some random people. Ask them to move around the website. You could ask them to find specific things. If they have trouble navigating the site, you could try to figure out why. And then correct the issues. >> Again, that's only my own opinion, and what my limited amount of free >> time can permit, I'm sorry that it looks so negative. If other people >> can help with this, feel free, it's an open project, I'm just warning >> what I have seen happening in the past decade. > We'll experiment with the page in a private git repository and if the > results will be good, we will think about the rest later. awesome! > >> Samuel > > Jan Wielkiewicz > -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Samuel Thibault writes:
> Jan Wielkiewicz, le dim. 16 août 2020 21:00:26 +0200, a ecrit:
>> > More than a grant, it's people that we would need (yes, a grant could
>> > help here but in the end it's people that matter).
>> I believe the website could help here, explanation below.
May I suggest we make a business out of the GNU/Hurd? I own the domain
gnu-hurd.com. My original business plan was to host static blog sites
for young programmers for $2 or $3 per month. And or sell librebooted
laptops. We can do both if anyone is interested in joining me in this
endeavor. I'm also open to any and all business proposals. I only own
the domain gnu-hurd.com. I'm not proposing that I own the project or
the direction the GNU/Hurd takes. Samuel is our fearless leader!
>
> Sure. But also see below.
>
>> > Being able to work on people's hardware is also a very important
>> > thing. You won't attract people to your OS if it can only run on some
>> > "obscure" hardware. Supporting x86 remains some must, and porting to
>> > 64bit will be the most efficient way of fixing the pending year-2038
>> > issue.
>> I see. I'm not sure if the Hurd's ideal target are x86 devices anyway.
Again, we could sell hardware that runs on the Hurd. This is a problem
that a business could solve. We could sell a laptop that dual boots the
Hurd and debian or guix. That way the user can choose at boot time: is
it time to play with the Hurd? Or is it time to get work done with a
modern firefox web browser in debian?
>
>> By providing Libre SoC support for the Hurd, the project can prepare
>> for *new* hardware that's already comming, instead of trying to chase
>> 10 years old proprietary junk.
You may be interested in talking to Richard Braun. He's mostly stepped
away from GNU/Hurd development, but he's working on his own
kernel. (it's really similar to the Hurd) He's been porting it to Arm
recently. He could give you some tips about how to port the GNU/Hurd.
Apart from Samuel, Richard Braun may be one of the best and most
knowledgeable GNU/Hurd developers alive today.
https://www.sceen.net/x15/
> I'm afraid I'm not sure I want to attract people who only like
> shiny-brighty websites and can't stand a merely black-blue-on-white
> design. By this, I mean: personally I just ~#{[ don't have the #{[[ time
> to answer their probably terribly large amount of questions.
>
You do a terrific job for the Hurd Samuel! You are perhaps the best
leader it's ever had. It would have faded away into nothing without
you. Thanks for your dedication!
>> with latest news from 2016 and assume the project is dead.
>
> That part makes full sense, yes. Now fixed. Again, as I mentioned, it's
> a matter of somebody actually taking the time of putting news there. I
> don't have time to do such a thing, and I'm no good at that anyway. I
> can proofread what somebody would write, though.
>
> Again, that's only my own opinion, and what my limited amount of free
> time can permit, I'm sorry that it looks so negative. If other people
> can help with this, feel free, it's an open project, I'm just warning
> what I have seen happening in the past decade.
Samuel I don't think you're being negative. You're being somewhat
realistic. For those of you who don't know, Samuel routinely has to
respond to emails like "Why does the Hurd project suck! Do it right!"
I admit that I once sent him such an email. Sorry bro. :(
>
> Samuel
>
--
Joshua Branson
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > Dnia 2020-08-16, o godz. 16:39:12 > Samuel Thibault napisał(a): > >> Hello, > Currently the latest news on the website are "2016-12-18-releases". > I'm not talking about news from https://darnassus.sceen.net/ , because > it is not accessible from the official website and is dead half of the > time, for example now. > The lazy solution to this would be: > "The Hurd is still alive, check out our git repository and mailing > list!" > I could write some short notes if my English is good enough. I thought you were a native speaker! Your English is superb! > >> I will probably never understand the reasoning behind "graphically >> appealing => is alive", but I guess that's the world we live in. > How we present the project to the world and its appearance is extremely > important to success of the project, a good example of this can be seen > in the animal world: > Some animals pretend to be dead in order to trick predators into > thinking something is wrong with them: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_death > We don't want the Hurd to be as successful in pretending we're dead as > these animals, do we? :) > People are simple - they see an old website, with latest news from 2016 > and assume the project is dead. Not everyone is as curious as me to > check the mailing list or git repo. > I started contributing to Guix, just because the website convinced me > the project is worth it, also because it is a GNU project, but the > website was more important. > professional website = people thinking the project is professional > By just saying on the main page "we're looking for developers for X" we > can gain new contributors. Just because I told my friend about the > Hurd, he's now willing to contribute. > This is the power of presentation. Really, I had to tell people all > around the Internet, the Hurd is still alive, because they thought > otherwise! This is pretty true. That's kind of the main reason I started playing with GNU Guix too! > >> It is already a wiki. > Yes I know, what I mean by this is we could make the main page with sole > purpose of showing the Hurd is cool and still alive and a candy shop > people want to come and from this cool main page, there would be a link > to the wiki, the current web page we don't want to show anyone but > maintainers. This would save the current maintainers from headaches. > The navigation on the website is also hard, but I'm not sure I'm > competent enough to reorganise the wiki more logically and the main > goal of making the new website is what I said above - showing the Hurd > is cool. I have thought about this for a long time! That's a fantastic idea! > > >> Samuel > > Jan Wielkiewicz > -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
You may also be interested in looking at this: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/how-i-write-a-qoth.html It gives you a roadmap about how to regularly write about GNU/Hurd updates! It's awesome to have you aboard the team! -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
You could also check out my GNU/Hurd cheatsheet. It's got lots of ideas on the wiki that could use some updating: https://notabug.org/jbranso/cheatsheets/src/master/hurd.org#wiki -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
>
> > That'd be great! See the previous editions for the topics, but basically
> > anything about what is happening would be useful to talk about.
>
> Are there any features present in the latest images that weren’t in the
2019
> release that could be the basis of a post?
> I have to admit I don't remember from memory, but probably, yes.
If I remember well, the news in the 2019 image were the adding of the PCI
Arbitrer (although a bit buggy, of course) and Lwip as alternative network
stack.
> Making the page cool could attract people, yes. These will however have
> a lot of questions (they won't bother reading the FAQ). Personally I
> simply won't have time to answer. If people here on bug-hurd and #hurd
> do have, then sure go ahead.
I agree with Jan: Hurd needs to attract new people. Of course, these new
people will have a lot of questions, and some of this could leave the
project after a time.
But, if we get to reply successfully to these questions, many of them will
be attracted to contribute with the project.
To attract new people we need to think in nowadays, and try to leave
comments like "It's an easy problem. In the 90s It tooks so more effort
than now"
We need to make the project easier for the novice, and a way for this is
improve the website: improve and update the documentation, ease the access
to the docs from the website,
ease the contributions (put a section about how to contribute could be a
good idea), etc.
About docs, another good idea could be adding a section about "how to
install" to Hurd website.
Two years ago, I wrote this guide about how to install Hurd over real
hardware (https://gist.github.com/AlmuHS/f0c036631881756e817504d28217a910),
although most advice could apply to a VM installation anyway (the guide
requires some update, of course).
The guide tries to be more "user-friendly" than the plain Debian's
hurd-install article, and is written like a simple tutorial for Debian
GNU/Hurd installation.
You can take this idea to put a "how to install" section in the Hurd
website (the current "distrib" section is like a maze for this).
Other necessary tasks, as I told in other threads, it's improve the
usability of the Hurd distributions, like Debian GNU/Hurd.
Since 2013 there have been many advances in the Debian installer (even, in
2017 I could install a desktop environment directly from the Debian
GNU/Hurd installer).
But in latest versions there are some problems related with dependency
problems in package installing, and some little problems in repositories
signature, which makes the use of this distro a bit difficult.
If we want to attract new contributors, we need to solve these problems.
Don't forget that the contributors, before being this, they are simple
users.
If this user, after trying Hurd and research about this, disagrees with the
appearance of the project (bad website, bad user experience...), It simply
will leave the project, and even will speak badly about this.
So, I think that solving these problems is not a caprice, but a necessity.
El lun., 17 ago. 2020 a las 1:34, Jan Wielkiewicz (<
tona_kosmicznego_smie...@interia.pl>) escribió:
> Dnia 2020-08-17, o godz. 00:07:25
> Samuel Thibault napisał(a):
>
> > Whatever the "ideal" target would be (we have previously seen people
> > saying arm would be), not targetting x86 as well looks like suicide to
> > me.
> I see.
>
> > Why would they need to be? A firmware is not supposed to be
> > OS-specific.
> I mean drivers, not firmware, sorry.
>
> >
> > Yes, the main website is lagging behind. I don't really know
> > how it is supposed to be updated, Thomas knows. Please bug
> > hurd-maintain...@gnu.org about it. I have now pushed at least the news
> > part.
> >
> Okay, will do, thanks.
>
> > I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*.
> >
> Life is often about accidents, not about reasoning. I discovered GNU by
> an accident, because of a proprietary game. Sounds stupid, but this is
> the reality.
>
> >
> > There is no reason why we should have to chase the
> > latest-shiny-brighty design trends (which basically means revamping
> > the website every year or two) only to express that the project
> > continues.
> I just want to make the website cleaner to read and more informative,
> that's it. I believe the current state is the opposite.
>
> > I know, the monkey prefers the red car. But we are not monkeys.
> Don't know this one.
>
> > I'm afraid I'm not sure I want to attract people who only like
> > shiny-brighty websites and can't stand a merely black-blue-on-white
> > design. By this, I mean: personally I just ~#{[ don't have the #{[[
> > time to answer their probably terribly large amount of questions.
> The problem with stupid questions can be solved by putting the FAQ
> section on the first plan so the information about asking questions
> will be more accessible:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq/asking_questions.html
> To make my point clear: we're not going to add some stupid and
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-17, o godz. 00:07:25
Samuel Thibault napisał(a):
> Whatever the "ideal" target would be (we have previously seen people
> saying arm would be), not targetting x86 as well looks like suicide to
> me.
I see.
> Why would they need to be? A firmware is not supposed to be
> OS-specific.
I mean drivers, not firmware, sorry.
>
> Yes, the main website is lagging behind. I don't really know
> how it is supposed to be updated, Thomas knows. Please bug
> hurd-maintain...@gnu.org about it. I have now pushed at least the news
> part.
>
Okay, will do, thanks.
> I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*.
>
Life is often about accidents, not about reasoning. I discovered GNU by
an accident, because of a proprietary game. Sounds stupid, but this is
the reality.
>
> There is no reason why we should have to chase the
> latest-shiny-brighty design trends (which basically means revamping
> the website every year or two) only to express that the project
> continues.
I just want to make the website cleaner to read and more informative,
that's it. I believe the current state is the opposite.
> I know, the monkey prefers the red car. But we are not monkeys.
Don't know this one.
> I'm afraid I'm not sure I want to attract people who only like
> shiny-brighty websites and can't stand a merely black-blue-on-white
> design. By this, I mean: personally I just ~#{[ don't have the #{[[
> time to answer their probably terribly large amount of questions.
The problem with stupid questions can be solved by putting the FAQ
section on the first plan so the information about asking questions
will be more accessible:
https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq/asking_questions.html
To make my point clear: we're not going to add some stupid and laggy JS
slideshows, I just want the layout of the website to be helpful for the
readers.
Look at the website of Libre SoC as an example, it runs on ikiwiki too,
but one simple CSS file makes it pleasant to read:
https://libre-soc.org/
We could just adapt the CSS file from the website and that's all.
> That part makes full sense, yes. Now fixed.
Thanks.
> "professional" is a very relative thing. For me black-blue-on-white
> looks more professional than shiny-brighty. But again I'm probably
> simply just biaised and just not adapted to the world as it is
> nowadays.
We can leave it black-blue-on-white then.
> > By just saying on the main page "we're looking for developers for
> > X" we can gain new contributors.
>
> It is actually written there.
It was hidden below the outdated news section, didn't notice it.
> Which headaches precisely?
I mean a situation where we reorganise everything and no one knows
where something is located.
> Making the page cool could attract people, yes. These will however
> have a lot of questions (they won't bother reading the FAQ).
> Personally I simply won't have time to answer. If people here on
> bug-hurd and #hurd do have, then sure go ahead.
>
> I'm sorry I'm being very negative here, I know that's definitely not
> the way to run a cool and fun project. The thing is: I never asked
> for being in charge of doing this, and the other thing is: the most
> badly needed things that we lack is not really that much fun and cool.
>
Sorry, maybe I'm just too optimistic, I'm young after all.
> Just to give you an idea, read
> ./liblibc/src/fuchsia/mod.rs
> which is the Fuchsia file needed to make rust work on Fuchsia (there
> are others, but that's the main one).
>
> That's 3950 lines of code, which are neither fun or cool, but that we
> apparently *have* to write to make rust work at all on the Hurd,
> because it seems that rust maintainer never bothered to write
> something that would simply somehow generate these lines from the
> libc headers like compilers for other languages do.
>
I see.
> I don't think making the website shiny-and-brighty will attract people
> who will be patient enough to write such a file.
As above, I just want it to serve its purpose well - I want the website
to be informative and clean to read.
> Again, that's only my own opinion, and what my limited amount of free
> time can permit, I'm sorry that it looks so negative. If other people
> can help with this, feel free, it's an open project, I'm just warning
> what I have seen happening in the past decade.
We'll experiment with the page in a private git repository and if the
results will be good, we will think about the rest later.
> Samuel
Jan Wielkiewicz
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Andrew Eggenberger, le dim. 16 août 2020 17:49:37 -0500, a ecrit: > > That'd be great! See the previous editions for the topics, but basically > > anything about what is happening would be useful to talk about. > > Are there any features present in the latest images that weren’t in the 2019 > release that could be the basis of a post? I have to admit I don't remember from memory, but probably, yes. > I’ve been following the email list for a while and I’ve seen > commits. It’s hard to know what merits an announcement. If unsure, you can always ask and we'll tell. > Would a periodic (Monthly, day?) summary or commits and other news be > a good starting point? A periodic summry could already be useful, yes (quarterly is probably enough to have enough content) > > That's "the best that we currently have". Meaning, "yes, if we had time > > to fix this it'd be fixed". We don't have that much manpower, so it's > > how it is currently, and help is welcome. > > Noted. I’ve been looking at the site more closely and may have some patches > based on what I’ve found to be helpful to my own Hurd use. That'll already be a good start! Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hi Samuel That'd be great! See the previous editions for the topics, but basically > anything about what is happening would be useful to talk about. Are there any features present in the latest images that weren’t in the 2019 release that could be the basis of a post? I’ve been following the email list for a while and I’ve seen commits. It’s hard to know what merits an announcement. Would a periodic (Monthly, day?) summary or commits and other news be a good starting point? > > You can check the date, or try or look by yourself to see what is > actually accurate, or ask on IRC or here. > > > That's "the best that we currently have". Meaning, "yes, if we had time > to fix this it'd be fixed". We don't have that much manpower, so it's > how it is currently, and help is welcome. > Noted. I’ve been looking at the site more closely and may have some patches based on what I’ve found to be helpful to my own Hurd use. Andrew -- *Andrew Eggenberger*
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz, le dim. 16 août 2020 21:00:26 +0200, a ecrit:
> > More than a grant, it's people that we would need (yes, a grant could
> > help here but in the end it's people that matter).
> I believe the website could help here, explanation below.
Sure. But also see below.
> > Being able to work on people's hardware is also a very important
> > thing. You won't attract people to your OS if it can only run on some
> > "obscure" hardware. Supporting x86 remains some must, and porting to
> > 64bit will be the most efficient way of fixing the pending year-2038
> > issue.
> I see. I'm not sure if the Hurd's ideal target are x86 devices anyway.
Whatever the "ideal" target would be (we have previously seen people
saying arm would be), not targetting x86 as well looks like suicide to
me.
> Are companies going to write proprietary firmware for the Hurd in the
> near future? Likely not.
Why would they need to be? A firmware is not supposed to be OS-specific.
> People who want to run only free software on their hardware are
> already forced to buy some obscure hardware
Ok, but I believe we do not want to target only them.
> By providing Libre SoC support for the Hurd, the project can prepare
> for *new* hardware that's already comming, instead of trying to chase
> 10 years old proprietary junk.
We are not really chasing for hardware support, we just use existing
drivers (Linux, OpenBSD, etc.)
> > It depends what you call "modernization". Putting javascript etc. is
> > basically a no-go. Redesign the css etc. would probably be useful
> > indeed.
> We're not going to add some unneeded bloat, just some CSS eyecandy and
> actual features. Also answering your later message, I'm aware of "the
> JavaScript Trap" and this is not a big issue here - all we have to do is
> to release our scripts (if any) as free software and to add some
> metadata on to the website so GNU LibreJS knows the scripts are free
> software.
Then that'd be all good.
> > But also we need somebody to keep up with the
> > quarter-of-the-hurd just to mention on the website what is actually
> > happening.
> Currently the latest news on the website are "2016-12-18-releases".
Yes, the main website is lagging behind. I don't really know
how it is supposed to be updated, Thomas knows. Please bug
hurd-maintain...@gnu.org about it. I have now pushed at least the news
part.
> > I will probably never understand the reasoning behind "graphically
> > appealing => is alive", but I guess that's the world we live in.
> How we present the project to the world and its appearance is extremely
> important to success of the project,
I know. That still does not mean I understand the *reasoning*.
> a good example of this can be seen in the animal world:
We are not animals.
> Some animals pretend to be dead in order to trick predators into
> thinking something is wrong with them:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_death
Non-graphically appealing doesn't mean "dead".
There is no reason why we should have to chase the latest-shiny-brighty
design trends (which basically means revamping the website every year or
two) only to express that the project continues.
I know, the monkey prefers the red car. But we are not monkeys.
> People are simple - they see an old website,
I'm afraid I'm not sure I want to attract people who only like
shiny-brighty websites and can't stand a merely black-blue-on-white
design. By this, I mean: personally I just ~#{[ don't have the #{[[ time
to answer their probably terribly large amount of questions.
> with latest news from 2016 and assume the project is dead.
That part makes full sense, yes. Now fixed. Again, as I mentioned, it's
a matter of somebody actually taking the time of putting news there. I
don't have time to do such a thing, and I'm no good at that anyway. I
can proofread what somebody would write, though.
> professional website = people thinking the project is professional
"professional" is a very relative thing. For me black-blue-on-white
looks more professional than shiny-brighty. But again I'm probably
simply just biaised and just not adapted to the world as it is nowadays.
> By just saying on the main page "we're looking for developers for X" we
> can gain new contributors.
It is actually written there.
> This is the power of presentation. Really, I had to tell people all
> around the Internet, the Hurd is still alive, because they thought
> otherwise!
The Hurd carries a huge background of urban legends etc. and most people
don't bother actually checking for themselves, so I'm not surprised at
all (and no, I don't think things were different in 2016 when the latest
news was fresh).
> > It is already a wiki.
> Yes I know, what I mean by this is we could make the main page with sole
> purpose of showing the Hurd is cool and still alive and a candy shop
> people want to come and from this cool main page, there would be a link
> to the wiki, the current web page we don't want to show anyone but
>
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hello, Andrew Eggenberger, le dim. 16 août 2020 12:55:29 -0500, a ecrit: > I'd be willing to write updates for the website on a regular basis with some > guidance about topics. That'd be great! See the previous editions for the topics, but basically anything about what is happening would be useful to talk about. > One of the problems I'd had using the hurd websites is that > information is often duplicated with minor variations and little > indication of what is most up-to-date or relevant You can check the date, or try or look by yourself to see what is actually accurate, or ask on IRC or here. > or its presentation isn't as user-friendly as it could be (chat > transcripts, for example). That's "the best that we currently have". Meaning, "yes, if we had time to fix this it'd be fixed". We don't have that much manpower, so it's how it is currently, and help is welcome. Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-16, o godz. 09:44:38 Joshua Branson napisał(a): > Jan Wielkiewicz writes: > > Hey Jan, > > I'm an occasional Hurd web contribute (I haven't contributed anything > useful in a while). I'm not really a Hurd developer, but if I can > motivate/encourage you to achieve your goal, please let me know! > Okay, nice. > > I wonder if you know about this open 3D GPU: > https://www.crowdsupply.com/libre-risc-v/m-class > > I'll email the leader the libre-risc-v and let him know about the > libre-soc.org website. Those guys should work together! They're the same actually :) They changed the name, because they abandoned(?) the idea of using Risc-V as the Risc-V foundation was hostine towards libre development. https://lists.libre-soc.org/pipermail/libre-riscv-dev/2019-October/003035.html OpenPOWER foundation is just more cooperative. > > I'm fairly certain that the Hurd developers would agree with you in > this. I believe that they would love it for the Hurd to work on > numerous architectures. I believe that the Hurd's glibc's port to > OpenPower, will need to be completed. For the more technical porting > details, you'll have to ask the other Hurd devs. I believe that this > is quite an involved task. :) > I just wanted to make sure people are aware of this project, I'm not competent enough to work on this task, but maybe in the future. > Please do! We would love it if the Hurd looked "hipster" and fun! Will do! > Please send any patches to the > website, to bug-hurd@gnu.org. We haven't used web-h...@gnu.org in a > while. Okay. > Again, I'm speculating here, but Samuel might be ok with this. I > don't know how well rust support is in the Hurd. You might have to > port rust to the Hurd, which is non-trivial. I think we are still > working on getting Go to work on the Hurd. :) I don't like Rust (yet) nor Go, but I think the project could gain from using these new languages, just because they're *brand new* and popular right now - people are looking for projects to contribute to gain experience and have fun. > -- > Joshua Branson > Sent from Emacs and Gnus > I have to try sending my mails from Emacs one day Jan Wielkiewicz
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Dnia 2020-08-16, o godz. 16:39:12 Samuel Thibault napisał(a): > Hello, > > More than a grant, it's people that we would need (yes, a grant could > help here but in the end it's people that matter). I believe the website could help here, explanation below. > Being able to work on people's hardware is also a very important > thing. You won't attract people to your OS if it can only run on some > "obscure" hardware. Supporting x86 remains some must, and porting to > 64bit will be the most efficient way of fixing the pending year-2038 > issue. I see. I'm not sure if the Hurd's ideal target are x86 devices anyway. I'm using Guix with Linux-libre on my proprietary machine and the "experience" is rather limited - like 4 hangs a day due to some problems with deblobbed firmware and the hardware support is poor already. Are companies going to write proprietary firmware for the Hurd in the near future? Likely not. Is anynoe going to reverse-engineer "modern" x86 hardware? Likely not, too much effort, it would be done already for Linux-libre, if it were easy. Libre SoC is the best opportunity to get the Hurd completely working on some hardware, not just partially on user-hostile devices. Running GNU/Linux-libre distributions is already only possible on "dedicated" hardware like these over 10 years old ThinkPads, not to mention the Hurd. People who want to run only free software on their hardware are already forced to buy some obscure hardware and I see no barriers that would make them not buy also dedidated hardware, but new and freedom-friendly for the Hurd. By providing Libre SoC support for the Hurd, the project can prepare for *new* hardware that's already comming, instead of trying to chase 10 years old proprietary junk. > Also, we need to port to 64bit at all at some point. It's way easier > to do this from something that works (i386) than from scratch. And > then a powerpc64 port (or whatever 64bit port) will be much easier > since the 64bit question will have been solved. Then porting to x86_64 is justified. > It depends what you call "modernization". Putting javascript etc. is > basically a no-go. Redesign the css etc. would probably be useful > indeed. We're not going to add some unneeded bloat, just some CSS eyecandy and actual features. Also answering your later message, I'm aware of "the JavaScript Trap" and this is not a big issue here - all we have to do is to release our scripts (if any) as free software and to add some metadata on to the website so GNU LibreJS knows the scripts are free software. > But also we need somebody to keep up with the > quarter-of-the-hurd just to mention on the website what is actually > happening. Currently the latest news on the website are "2016-12-18-releases". I'm not talking about news from https://darnassus.sceen.net/ , because it is not accessible from the official website and is dead half of the time, for example now. The lazy solution to this would be: "The Hurd is still alive, check out our git repository and mailing list!" I could write some short notes if my English is good enough. > I will probably never understand the reasoning behind "graphically > appealing => is alive", but I guess that's the world we live in. How we present the project to the world and its appearance is extremely important to success of the project, a good example of this can be seen in the animal world: Some animals pretend to be dead in order to trick predators into thinking something is wrong with them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_death We don't want the Hurd to be as successful in pretending we're dead as these animals, do we? :) People are simple - they see an old website, with latest news from 2016 and assume the project is dead. Not everyone is as curious as me to check the mailing list or git repo. I started contributing to Guix, just because the website convinced me the project is worth it, also because it is a GNU project, but the website was more important. professional website = people thinking the project is professional By just saying on the main page "we're looking for developers for X" we can gain new contributors. Just because I told my friend about the Hurd, he's now willing to contribute. This is the power of presentation. Really, I had to tell people all around the Internet, the Hurd is still alive, because they thought otherwise! > It is already a wiki. Yes I know, what I mean by this is we could make the main page with sole purpose of showing the Hurd is cool and still alive and a candy shop people want to come and from this cool main page, there would be a link to the wiki, the current web page we don't want to show anyone but maintainers. This would save the current maintainers from headaches. The navigation on the website is also hard, but I'm not sure I'm competent enough to reorganise the wiki more logically and the main goal of making the new website is what I said above - showing the Hurd is cool. > Yes, some things could be done in rust.
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
I'd be willing to write updates for the website on a regular basis with some guidance about topics. One of the problems I'd had using the hurd websites is that information is often duplicated with minor variations and little indication of what is most up-to-date or relevant or its presentation isn't as user-friendly as it could be (chat transcripts, for example). I think a lot could be cleaned up and made more usable short of a complete redesign, not that one couldn't help. *Andrew Eggenberger* On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 9:42 AM Samuel Thibault wrote: > Samuel Thibault, le dim. 16 août 2020 16:39:12 +0200, a ecrit: > > > Do you have anything against if I and my friend modernized the website? > > > It looks like abandonware and is really harmful for the project. > > > > It depends what you call "modernization". Putting javascript etc. is > > basically a no-go. > > (I mean, see fsf's concern about javascript). > > Samuel > >
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Samuel Thibault, le dim. 16 août 2020 16:39:12 +0200, a ecrit: > > Do you have anything against if I and my friend modernized the website? > > It looks like abandonware and is really harmful for the project. > > It depends what you call "modernization". Putting javascript etc. is > basically a no-go. (I mean, see fsf's concern about javascript). Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hello, Jan Wielkiewicz, le sam. 15 août 2020 18:51:27 +0200, a ecrit: > I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there's a compeletely libre > CPU+GPU OpenPOWER chip in development and I think supporting it in > the Hurd will be crucial for free software. > https://libre-soc.org/ That would be interesting indeed. > The developers are open to contributors and I think it is could be > possible to get a grant from NLNet foundation for porting the Hurd to > PowerPC (or whatever the architecture actually is). More than a grant, it's people that we would need (yes, a grant could help here but in the end it's people that matter). > My objective is: x86 processors are really hostile towards user freedom > due to backdoors like Intel ME or AMD PSP, the ISA itself is > proprietary, that's why porting the Hurd to x86_64 is even less > important than porting it to PowerPC. "Important" is a delicate word to say. Being able to work on people's hardware is also a very important thing. You won't attract people to your OS if it can only run on some "obscure" hardware. Supporting x86 remains some must, and porting to 64bit will be the most efficient way of fixing the pending year-2038 issue. Also, we need to port to 64bit at all at some point. It's way easier to do this from something that works (i386) than from scratch. And then a powerpc64 port (or whatever 64bit port) will be much easier since the 64bit question will have been solved. > Do you have anything against if I and my friend modernized the website? > It looks like abandonware and is really harmful for the project. It depends what you call "modernization". Putting javascript etc. is basically a no-go. Redesign the css etc. would probably be useful indeed. But also we need somebody to keep up with the quarter-of-the-hurd just to mention on the website what is actually happening. > The main page would be dedicated to promoting the project and would be > graphically appealing to convince the visitor the project is not dead. I will probably never understand the reasoning behind "graphically appealing => is alive", but I guess that's the world we live in. > The current page could be moved to a wiki section or somewhere else. It is already a wiki. > Do you have anything against Rust contributions into the project? My > friend is interested in contributing, but unfortunately in Rust, not C. > I wonder if rump drivers could be written in Rust, thanks > to the Hurd's modular architecture. Yes, some things could be done in rust. But rust would need to be ported first. I did have a look, and the work needed there (basically, explain rust the API of each and every function provided by libc, while rust could merely read it from the .h files) discouraged me quite a bit. That being said, see fsf's concern about the "rust" trademark: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Rust Samuel
Re: A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Jan Wielkiewicz writes: Hey Jan, I'm an occasional Hurd web contribute (I haven't contributed anything useful in a while). I'm not really a Hurd developer, but if I can motivate/encourage you to achieve your goal, please let me know! > Hello, > > I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there's a compeletely libre > CPU+GPU OpenPOWER chip in development and I think supporting it in > the Hurd will be crucial for free software. > https://libre-soc.org/ > Full source code is available, drivers and firmware will be also under > a free license. > The OpenPOWER foundation released a libre-friendly EULA this February: > https://openpowerfoundation.org/final-draft-of-the-power-isa-eula-released/ > The SoC is going to be 64-bit, mobile-class chip with 3D acceleration. > The developers are open to contributors and I think it is could be > possible to get a grant from NLNet foundation for porting the Hurd to > PowerPC (or whatever the architecture actually is). > Here's the progress of development: > https://libre-soc.org/3d_gpu/ I wonder if you know about this open 3D GPU: https://www.crowdsupply.com/libre-risc-v/m-class I'll email the leader the libre-risc-v and let him know about the libre-soc.org website. Those guys should work together! > My objective is: x86 processors are really hostile towards user freedom > due to backdoors like Intel ME or AMD PSP, the ISA itself is > proprietary, that's why porting the Hurd to x86_64 is even less > important than porting it to PowerPC. > If everything goes well, OpenPOWER processors will gain in popularity > and the Hurd together with it. I'm fairly certain that the Hurd developers would agree with you in this. I believe that they would love it for the Hurd to work on numerous architectures. I believe that the Hurd's glibc's port to OpenPower, will need to be completed. For the more technical porting details, you'll have to ask the other Hurd devs. I believe that this is quite an involved task. :) > > My second question is: > Do you have anything against if I and my friend modernized the website? > It looks like abandonware and is really harmful for the project. > The main page would be dedicated to promoting the project and would be > graphically appealing to convince the visitor the project is not dead. > The current page could be moved to a wiki section or somewhere else. > Also navigation is too complicated and messy, searching doesn't work at > all, because https://darnassus.sceen.net/cgi-bin/hurd-web is dead half > of the time. > Any special wishes? Please do! We would love it if the Hurd looked "hipster" and fun! The easiest thing you could do would be to tweak the css files, but I believe that Samuel would be open to talks to move from ikiwiki to some other wiki you might prefer. Please send any patches to the website, to bug-hurd@gnu.org. We haven't used web-h...@gnu.org in a while. > Third question: > Do you have anything against Rust contributions into the project? My > friend is interested in contributing, but unfortunately in Rust, not C. > I wonder if rump drivers could be written in Rust, thanks > to the Hurd's modular architecture. Again, I'm speculating here, but Samuel might be ok with this. I don't know how well rust support is in the Hurd. You might have to port rust to the Hurd, which is non-trivial. I think we are still working on getting Go to work on the Hurd. :) > Jan Wielkiewicz > -- Joshua Branson Sent from Emacs and Gnus
A few questions: Libre SoC, website, Rust
Hello, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there's a compeletely libre CPU+GPU OpenPOWER chip in development and I think supporting it in the Hurd will be crucial for free software. https://libre-soc.org/ Full source code is available, drivers and firmware will be also under a free license. The OpenPOWER foundation released a libre-friendly EULA this February: https://openpowerfoundation.org/final-draft-of-the-power-isa-eula-released/ The SoC is going to be 64-bit, mobile-class chip with 3D acceleration. The developers are open to contributors and I think it is could be possible to get a grant from NLNet foundation for porting the Hurd to PowerPC (or whatever the architecture actually is). Here's the progress of development: https://libre-soc.org/3d_gpu/ My objective is: x86 processors are really hostile towards user freedom due to backdoors like Intel ME or AMD PSP, the ISA itself is proprietary, that's why porting the Hurd to x86_64 is even less important than porting it to PowerPC. If everything goes well, OpenPOWER processors will gain in popularity and the Hurd together with it. My second question is: Do you have anything against if I and my friend modernized the website? It looks like abandonware and is really harmful for the project. The main page would be dedicated to promoting the project and would be graphically appealing to convince the visitor the project is not dead. The current page could be moved to a wiki section or somewhere else. Also navigation is too complicated and messy, searching doesn't work at all, because https://darnassus.sceen.net/cgi-bin/hurd-web is dead half of the time. Any special wishes? Third question: Do you have anything against Rust contributions into the project? My friend is interested in contributing, but unfortunately in Rust, not C. I wonder if rump drivers could be written in Rust, thanks to the Hurd's modular architecture. Jan Wielkiewicz
