Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Ah, the chicken or the egg issue….
Martha

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Alan Winston via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Martha --
> 
> I believe "Double Mad Robin" in ECD is a reimportation from contra of the 
> contra-style Mad Robin.
> 
> -- Alan
> 
> On 12/17/15 7:42 AM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>> Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella 
>> turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and 
>> teach where necessary, without a reference to the original dance. Why 
>> bother? Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I were teaching 
>> the original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but 
>> otherwise that information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is 
>> listening to and doesn’t help in the teaching. If I were calling a medley 
>> without teaching, saying "petronella turn" would get the job done as that’s 
>> what the dancers here all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, 
>> for the reasons you  mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and 
>> “petronella”? It’s not as if we have 200 different calls people need to know 
>> to do contra - these have been in use regularly for many years now and I 
>> don’t quite understand what the fuss is all about.
>> 
>> Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes 
>> and no. What we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though 
>> I’m not sure how old the usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single 
>> version, so I suppose we dropped the “double” designation.
>> Martha
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
>>> as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
>>> 
>>> Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
>>> and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
>>> the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
>>> 
>>> If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
>>> to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
>>> all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
>>> but means something completely different.
>>> 
>>> I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
>>> contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
>>> there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
>>> everything works fine from then on.
>>> 
>>> And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
>>> expect people not to do it! :-)
>>> 
>>> Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
>>> Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
>>> without using any of those words?
>>> 
>>> But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
>>> hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
>>> across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
>>> completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
>>> Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
>>> in a different part of America a century ago.
>>> 
>>> I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
>>> "Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
>>> to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
>>> around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
>>> strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
>>> Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
>>> defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
>>> 
>>> Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
>>> every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
>>> teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
>>> standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
>>> settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
>>> of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
>>> 
>>> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
>>> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
>>> 
>>> Happy dancing,
>>> John
>>> 
>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
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>> Callers mailing list
>> 

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Alan Winston via Callers]

Martha --

I believe "Double Mad Robin" in ECD is a reimportation from contra of 
the contra-style Mad Robin.


-- Alan

On 12/17/15 7:42 AM, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:

Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella turn" at 
least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and teach where necessary, without a 
reference to the original dance. Why bother? Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I 
were teaching the original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but otherwise that 
information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is listening to and doesn’t help in the 
teaching. If I were calling a medley without teaching, saying "petronella turn" would get 
the job done as that’s what the dancers here all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, 
for the reasons you  mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and “petronella”? It’s not as 
if we have 200 different calls people need to know to do contra - these have been in use regularly 
for many years now and I don’t quite understand what the fuss is all about.

Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and 
no. What we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not 
sure how old the usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I 
suppose we dropped the “double” designation.
Martha



On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
 wrote:

Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"

Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.

If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.

I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.

And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)

Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?

But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.

I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!

Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!

Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, Neal Schlein wrote:
> On Dec 17, 2015 8:50 AM, "Aahz Maruch via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
>>>
>>> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
>>> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
>>
>> Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
>> programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
>> only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly.  
>
> Umm...Aahz, I think you missed the point about standardization in contra
> versus MWSD.

Maybe, but I was responding specifically to the whole phrase "complete
standardisation".  I can rant on and on about the falsity of "dancing by
definition".  ;-)  Obviously square dancing is more standardized than
contra.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
"In 1968 it took the computing power of 2 C-64's to fly a rocket to the moon.
Now, in 1998 it takes the Power of a Pentium 200 to run Microsoft Windows 98.
Something must have gone wrong."  --/bin/fortune

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Neal Schlein via Callers]

Umm...Aahz, I think you missed the point about standardization in contra
versus MWSD.

Yes: technically there are poorly understood and detailed applications in
squares that are not clearly defined, and in contras some of us discuss the
terminology we want to use.  But Callerlab prints definitions and
rulebooks;  CDSS does not.

A and B aren't really analogous in any meaningful way.
:-)

Neal Schlein
On Dec 17, 2015 8:50 AM, "Aahz Maruch via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
> >
> > Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is
> another
> > matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
>
> Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
> programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
> only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly.  An example
> someone told me about last night:
>
> Given a right-handed ocean wave with girls in the center, call "girls
> U-turn back and Roll".  What should be the result?  (Side note:
> reviewing the definition right now, I think the person I was talking with
> had the wrong answer, but it's ambiguous.)
>
> Therefore, competent callers consider stuff like that to be either
> avoided or workshopped if you want to do them (the latter being just
> like contra).
>
> An interesting point that mostly only MWSD callers are aware of: the
> CALLERLAB Applications Review Committee uses the terms "proper" and
> "improper" rather than "right"/"wrong" or "legal"/"illegal" because they
> have zero power to enforce their decisions.
>
> CALLERLAB also has "Standard Application" documents for Basic through
> Plus, they tell you which formations/arrangements are more likely to
> succeed/fail for any given call.
> --
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
> http://rule6.info/
>   <*>   <*>   <*>
> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
> ___
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> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Hear, hear, John. I agree with you. I’ve heard this move called "petronella 
turn" at least since the late 80s and, as you do, just call it as such, and 
teach where necessary, without a reference to the original dance. Why bother? 
Most dancers don’t know the original dance - now if I were teaching the 
original dance I might say this is where this move came from, but otherwise 
that information is just unnecessary verbiage that no one is listening to and 
doesn’t help in the teaching. If I were calling a medley without teaching, 
saying "petronella turn" would get the job done as that’s what the dancers here 
all know, and balance and spin would confuse utterly, for the reasons you  
mentioned. What is wrong with using “mad robin” and “petronella”? It’s not as 
if we have 200 different calls people need to know to do contra - these have 
been in use regularly for many years now and I don’t quite understand what the 
fuss is all about.

Also, as for “mad robin” not being the same as the ECD version - well, yes and 
no. What we do is “double mad robin” and that does exist in ECD, though I’m not 
sure how old the usage is. Contra just doesn’t use the single version, so I 
suppose we dropped the “double” designation.
Martha


> On Dec 17, 2015, at 2:29 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
> as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"
> 
> Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
> and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
> the place of the person who was holding my right hand.
> 
> If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
> to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
> all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
> but means something completely different.
> 
> I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
> contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
> there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
> everything works fine from then on.
> 
> And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
> expect people not to do it! :-)
> 
> Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
> Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
> without using any of those words?
> 
> But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
> hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
> across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
> completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
> Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
> in a different part of America a century ago.
> 
> I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
> "Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
> to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
> around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
> strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
> Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
> defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!
> 
> Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
> every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
> teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
> standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
> settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
> of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!
> 
> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)
> 
> Happy dancing,
> John
> 
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> 
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015, John Sweeney via Callers wrote:
>
> Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
> matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)

Note that MWSD is not completely standardized -- it's more like the C
programming language with areas that are ill-defined, or at least which
only extremely nitpicky people know how to do correctly.  An example
someone told me about last night:

Given a right-handed ocean wave with girls in the center, call "girls
U-turn back and Roll".  What should be the result?  (Side note:
reviewing the definition right now, I think the person I was talking with
had the wrong answer, but it's ambiguous.)

Therefore, competent callers consider stuff like that to be either
avoided or workshopped if you want to do them (the latter being just
like contra).

An interesting point that mostly only MWSD callers are aware of: the
CALLERLAB Applications Review Committee uses the terms "proper" and 
"improper" rather than "right"/"wrong" or "legal"/"illegal" because they
have zero power to enforce their decisions.

CALLERLAB also has "Standard Application" documents for Basic through
Plus, they tell you which formations/arrangements are more likely to
succeed/fail for any given call.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[John Sweeney via Callers]

Michael Fuerst wrote, "'Balance and spin' has the same number of syllables
as 'Petronella' and avoids unnecessary jargon"

Hmmm... well if someone says "Petronella" I know that I am balancing forward
and back and then spinning clockwise while moving one place to my right to
the place of the person who was holding my right hand.

If the caller just says "Balance & Spin" then I don't know which direction
to balance, which way to turn or which way to move (if indeed I move at
all).  Set & Turn Single has basically the same meaning as Balance & Spin
but means something completely different.

I never say "as in Petronella".  The move is well enough established in
contra dance that all I have to do is say, "Petronella" and it happens.  If
there are new dancers I teach them the move, call it a Petronella, and
everything works fine from then on.

And we have been clapping for fun in dances for over 400 years now so don't
expect people not to do it! :-)

Our dancing couldn't survive without jargon.  Star. Ladies' Chain,
Allemande, Dosido are all jargon.  Would you try calling a contra dance
without using any of those words?

But none of those words are well defined.  Star can mean wrist-lock or
hands-across depending on the next move.  Ladies' Chain can mean across, or
across and back depending on which century you are in.  Allemande means
completely different things in other dance styles. And Dosido could be a
Mountain Dosido, a Do Paso, an Alabama Rang Tang or a Docey Ding if you are
in a different part of America a century ago.

I was dancing with another Morris side recently and #1 (the "caller") called
"Allemande".  I had never heard that term used in Morris before so I started
to offer my right hand, but the guy opposite me started doing a Back to Back
around me.  That is what #1 meant by "Allemande".  I thought this very
strange until I was researching "Captain Macintosh" and found Thomas
Wilson's 1820 book "The Complete System of English Country Dancing" which
defined "Allemande" as "Back to Back"!

Every dancing master in every community in every style in every period in
every country uses the words to mean what they want them to mean.  But they
teach their dancers what they mean and then it works.  Some calls get
standardised and are easy to use across communities.  Others take time to
settle down and may never be universally used.  But if jargon allows a group
of dancers to have fun at any particular dance then I am all for it!

Whether complete standardisation is a good thing or a bad thing is another
matter entirely; we all have our own opinions about MWSD :-)

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

I suspect that for prompting people to act  figure descriptions resembling 
verbs ("slide about") are better than than those resembling nouns ('sliding 
doors") Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  217 239 
5844 


On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 2:19 AM, Alan Winston via Callers 
 wrote:
 

  I use "Mad Robin" because that's what people use around here, but I kinda 
like "sliding doors" for the figure.
 
 -- Alan
 
 On 12/15/15 10:20 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
  
 
 Movements are best described with the minimal syllables possible with minimal  
jargon.
  
  "Mad Robin" became part of contra in the last ten years or so.   Unless 
someone comes up with more succinct and descriptive words, we are probably 
stuck with "Mad Robin" Actually now that I think about it, one could describe 
the Mad Robin action as "side gypsy" 
  "California twirl"  predates my 1985 introduction to contra.     One could 
say "twirl to swap," but that is not any more helpful for new dancers.  
California twirl is here to stay. 
  Concerning "petromella"  when I started contra dancing, callers teaching a 
dance, would almost always say something like "balance and shift one place and 
spin if you wish as in Petromella"  and would prompt during the dance with 
"balance and spin" or "balance and shift."    In the mid '80's we actually 
danced "Petronella" often enough so that most dancers knew from where it came.  
  Only in the past ten years has some callers started calling the move 
Petronella.     I will always teach and prompt this without reference to 
"Petronella" and avoid the unnecessary jargon 
  There is no compelling reason to stop using gypsy.
    Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844 
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at 
www.ArtComesFuerst.com  
 
 
  On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 8:54 PM, Aahz Maruch via Callers 
 wrote:
  
 
 On Tue, Dec 15, 2015, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
 >
 > "Balance and spin" has the same number of syllables as "Petronella"
 > and avoids unnecessary jargon
 
 Of course, some of us think that unless there's a compelling reason (as
 possibly in the case of "gypsy"), keeping the old terminology is part of
 the charm of folk dancing (in the generic sense, as opposed to IFD).
 
 Should we also get rid of "California Twirl" and "Mad Robin"?
 -- 
 Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6                        http://rule6.info/
                       <*>          <*>          <*>
 Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html 
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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Alan Winston via Callers]

I use "Mad Robin" because that's what people use around here, but I 
kinda like "sliding doors" for the figure.


-- Alan

On 12/15/15 10:20 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
Movements are best described with the minimal syllables possible with 
minimal  jargon.


"Mad Robin" became part of contra in the last ten years or so.   
Unless someone comes up with more succinct and descriptive words, we 
are probably stuck with "Mad Robin"
Actually now that I think about it, one could describe the Mad Robin 
action as "side gypsy"


"California twirl"  predates my 1985 introduction to contra. One 
could say "twirl to swap," but that is not any more helpful for new 
dancers.  California twirl is here to stay.


Concerning "petromella"  when I started contra dancing, callers 
teaching a dance, would almost always say something like "balance and 
shift one place and spin if you wish as in Petromella"  and would 
prompt during the dance with "balance and spin" or "balance and 
shift."In the mid '80's we actually danced "Petronella" often 
enough so that most dancers knew from where it came.Only in the 
past ten years has some callers started calling the move Petronella.   
  I will always teach and prompt this without reference to 
"Petronella" and avoid the unnecessary jargon


There is no compelling reason to stop using gypsy.
Michael Fuerst  802 N Broadway  Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844
Links to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at 
www.ArtComesFuerst.com




On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 8:54 PM, Aahz Maruch via Callers 
 wrote:



On Tue, Dec 15, 2015, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
>
> "Balance and spin" has the same number of syllables as "Petronella"
> and avoids unnecessary jargon

Of course, some of us think that unless there's a compelling reason (as
possibly in the case of "gypsy"), keeping the old terminology is part of
the charm of folk dancing (in the generic sense, as opposed to IFD).

Should we also get rid of "California Twirl" and "Mad Robin"?
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
  <*>  <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

Good idea from Colin.    One might also say "slide about, men (or women) in 
front" Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  217 239 
5844http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201406/8-situations-when-you-should-keep-your-mouth-shut
 


On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 1:57 AM, Colin Hume via Callers 
 wrote:
 

 On Wed, 16 Dec 2015 06:20:58 + (UTC), Michael Fuerst via Callers 
wrote:
> "Mad Robin" became part of contra in the last ten years or so.  
> Unless someone comes up with more succinct and descriptive words,
> we are probably stuck with "Mad Robin"

I use the word "shuttle" (though in the walkthrough I say that some 
people call it "Mad Robin" or "Sliding Doors").  Three reasons:

Shuttle is very descriptive whereas Mad Robin is just jargon.

Very few dancers in England have danced the Playford dance "Mad Robin" 
(whereas "English" dancers in the States dance it regularly).

It's nothing like the original move in "Mad Robin".  There it is done 
by one couple only, and there's none of this "locking eyes" stuff that 
many Americans love.  Cecil Sharp's description (starting with the 
ones below the twos and both couples proper) is:

"First man moves up the middle and casts down to the same place; while 
his partner casts up and moves down the middle to her place."

"Cast" starts with turning away from your partner, not doing a crab 
movement.

Colin Hume

Email co...@colinhume.com      Web site http://colinhume.com


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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Colin Hume via Callers]

On Wed, 16 Dec 2015 06:20:58 + (UTC), Michael Fuerst via Callers
wrote:
> "Mad Robin" became part of contra in the last ten years or so.
> Unless someone comes up with more succinct and descriptive words,
> we are probably stuck with "Mad Robin"

I use the word "shuttle" (though in the walkthrough I say that some
people call it "Mad Robin" or "Sliding Doors").  Three reasons:

Shuttle is very descriptive whereas Mad Robin is just jargon.

Very few dancers in England have danced the Playford dance "Mad Robin"
(whereas "English" dancers in the States dance it regularly).

It's nothing like the original move in "Mad Robin".  There it is done
by one couple only, and there's none of this "locking eyes" stuff that
many Americans love.  Cecil Sharp's description (starting with the
ones below the twos and both couples proper) is:

"First man moves up the middle and casts down to the same place; while
his partner casts up and moves down the middle to her place."

"Cast" starts with turning away from your partner, not doing a crab
movement.

Colin Hume

Email co...@colinhume.com  Web site http://colinhume.com

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

Movements are best described with the minimal syllables possible with minimal  
jargon.

"Mad Robin" became part of contra in the last ten years or so.   Unless someone 
comes up with more succinct and descriptive words, we are probably stuck with 
"Mad Robin"Actually now that I think about it, one could describe the Mad Robin 
action as "side gypsy"
"California twirl"  predates my 1985 introduction to contra.     One could say 
"twirl to swap," but that is not any more helpful for new dancers.  California 
twirl is here to stay.
Concerning "petromella"  when I started contra dancing, callers teaching a 
dance, would almost always say something like "balance and shift one place and 
spin if you wish as in Petromella"  and would prompt during the dance with 
"balance and spin" or "balance and shift."    In the mid '80's we actually 
danced "Petronella" often enough so that most dancers knew from where it came.  
  Only in the past ten years has some callers started calling the move 
Petronella.     I will always teach and prompt this without reference to 
"Petronella" and avoid the unnecessary jargon
There is no compelling reason to stop using gypsy.
 Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844Links 
to photos of many of my drawings and paintings are at www.ArtComesFuerst.com 


On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 8:54 PM, Aahz Maruch via Callers 
 wrote:
 

 On Tue, Dec 15, 2015, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
>
> "Balance and spin" has the same number of syllables as "Petronella"
> and avoids unnecessary jargon

Of course, some of us think that unless there's a compelling reason (as
possibly in the case of "gypsy"), keeping the old terminology is part of
the charm of folk dancing (in the generic sense, as opposed to IFD).

Should we also get rid of "California Twirl" and "Mad Robin"?
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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
>
> "Balance and spin" has the same number of syllables as "Petronella"
> and avoids unnecessary jargon

Of course, some of us think that unless there's a compelling reason (as
possibly in the case of "gypsy"), keeping the old terminology is part of
the charm of folk dancing (in the generic sense, as opposed to IFD).

Should we also get rid of "California Twirl" and "Mad Robin"?
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

"Balance and spin" has the same number of syllables as "Petronella"  and avoids 
unnecessary jargon Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  
217 239 5844 


On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 1:35 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers 
<callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
 

 Many callers forget that Petronella is spin-then-balance, and most modern 
"Petronella dances" are balance-then-spin".So saying, "as in Petronella, 
balance and spin/move one place to the right" is not accurate either. More 
accurate: "Balance the ring, and as in Petronella, spin/move one place to the 
right."(And the difference also can explain why people clap. The chestnut 
Petronella has the stomping on the last beats, whereas there's a stompy-sized 
hole at the end of modern balance-then-spin Petronella dances.)On Dec 15, 2015 
2:09 PM, "Bill Olson via Callers" <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Erik and all, heh heh, I often chuckle at MYSELF when I find myself saying 
> that same thing: "as in Petronella", when I realize very few of the dancers 
> have ever danced Petronella.. BUT, after trying to teach the move with out 
> saying the "P word", I realized that some of the dancers at least know what 
> the move is and having a percentage of the dancers "doing the right thing" 
> helps the others., especially those who learn by seeing as opposed to having 
> something "explained"... (with rights and lefts in it ugh).. I've found 
> saying: "balance the ring and move one place to the right while pivoting over 
> your right shoulder" doesn't always get everyone doing the same thing (hah!), 
> if it doesn't actually freeze some dancers in their tracks!!
>  
> Now I hear newer callers saying stuff like "balance the ring and Petronella 
> to the right" or "balance left and Rory to the left". Making new verbs out of 
> these proper names.. well, whatever works!!!
>  
> bill
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Re: [Callers] As in Petronella

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

Many callers forget that Petronella is spin-then-balance, and most modern
"Petronella dances" are balance-then-spin".

So saying, "as in Petronella, balance and spin/move one place to the right"
is not accurate either.

More accurate: "Balance the ring, and as in Petronella, spin/move one place
to the right."

(And the difference also can explain why people clap. The chestnut
Petronella has the stomping on the last beats, whereas there's a
stompy-sized hole at the end of modern balance-then-spin Petronella dances.)

On Dec 15, 2015 2:09 PM, "Bill Olson via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Erik and all, heh heh, I often chuckle at MYSELF when I find myself
saying that same thing: "as in Petronella", when I realize very few of the
dancers have ever danced Petronella.. BUT, after trying to teach the move
with out saying the "P word", I realized that some of the dancers at least
know what the move is and having a percentage of the dancers "doing the
right thing" helps the others., especially those who learn by seeing as
opposed to having something "explained"... (with rights and lefts in it
ugh).. I've found saying: "balance the ring and move one place to the right
while pivoting over your right shoulder" doesn't always get everyone doing
the same thing (hah!), if it doesn't actually freeze some dancers in their
tracks!!
>
> Now I hear newer callers saying stuff like "balance the ring and
Petronella to the right" or "balance left and Rory to the left". Making new
verbs out of these proper names.. well, whatever works!!!
>
> bill