Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn? also named figures

[b...@hands4.com]

-Original Message-
From: callers-boun...@sharedweight.net 
[mailto:callers-boun...@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Edmund Croft

> And I was doing the two's variation in Petronella which uses a left turn back 
> in the early 80s.

Can you describe this in more detail? If you spin to the left, don't you crash 
into the 1s spinning to the right?

It's actually really fun, the twos turn left through the center while the ones 
are turning right around the outside. It's one of those things you need to try 
to understand. Not to be done with newbies in the foursome, but fun when you 
have ones who wouldn't be thrown by it. The ones sort of say "What the heck was 
that?" as the Twos go the wrong way.

Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[Donald Perley]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:15 AM, John Sweeney  wrote:

> Yes, the meaning has changed from the original move in the dance
> Petronella.  But lots of other words have had their meaning changed over
> the years.  "billion" used to mean a thousand million; but now (mainly
> due to American influence!) it means a million million.  "Acronym" used
> to mean abbreviations that you could pronounce as a word, eg. radar,
> laser, UNICEF; but now people just use it when they mean abbreviation.

Point taken, but you got the billion example backward.  American usage
is a thousand million (9 zeroes),
British is a million millions (12 zeroes.)

Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[John Sweeney]

When teaching a Petronella I often talk about "look right, spin right,
move right" and use some or all of the words the first time through the
calling, especially with beginners.

Emphasising the "look right and follow your head" can help a lot as it
is then even harder to turn the wrong way.

For experienced dancers I just call "Petronella (Turn)".

I agree that "twirl" can be confusing as the term is usually associated
with a swap with the hands connected over the head of one person.

If I go into a room full of experienced contra dancers and use the term
"Balance the Ring and Petronella Turn" then they will all just do it.
Why then would I want to use other words?

Yes, the meaning has changed from the original move in the dance
Petronella.  But lots of other words have had their meaning changed over
the years.  "billion" used to mean a thousand million; but now (mainly
due to American influence!) it means a million million.  "Acronym" used
to mean abbreviations that you could pronounce as a word, eg. radar,
laser, UNICEF; but now people just use it when they mean abbreviation.

Swing used to mean two-hand turn.  Does that mean we shouldn't use it to
mean a close-hold buzz-step?

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk   for
Dancing in Kent

[Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn? also named figures

[Edmund Croft]

Chrissy Fowler wrote:
>> Seems most people most of the time balance the ring toward the center and 
>> back.  Was it formerly more of a balance right then left?  

Colin Hume wrote:
> In the original (Scottish) dance it was a "set" rather than a "balance", and 
> that would be to the right and left.


Current SCD styling has setting being pretty much on the spot (even for 
balance-in-line), though I'm not sure how much that is a C20th invention of 
Miss Milligan's. Both the Petronella turn and the set are done with the setting 
step. The contra style balance-the-ring-and-Petronella occurs a couple of SCDs 
e.g. Back to the Fireside.

Beth Parkes wrote:
> One of the contra dance traditions has been a small set of named moves and, 
> for the most part, directional names for any new moves. So, for example,  we 
> say, "Pass through to an ocean wave," instead of "Pass the ocean." Please, 
> please fight any tendency to give obscure names for moves. If it is not 
> descriptive, it is not appropriate.

Named figures are a shorthand that lets the caller concisely call a figure that 
they've already described. Unless you're going to call every movement every 
time, there's no particular harm in using a name that's not descriptive, as 
long as it's been explained. Pass the Ocean is actually a good example of this, 
as describing the movements would be more like "pass through, ladies catching 
LH and turning a quarter, men taking partner's RH at the far end of the line", 
though I'd avoid putting too many such figures on a programme unless I knew the 
dancers were familiar with them. Contra already includes many jargon terms it 
would be impractical to do without - gypsy, balance, cast  Petronella is far 
from obscure, and is the word I would use to call the movement once I'd walked 
it through. But I come from an SCD background where we have many more long 
figures that have extremely non-descriptive names (Espagnole, Tourbillon, 
Schiehallion Reel ).

and:
> And I was doing the two's variation in Petronella which uses a left turn back 
> in the early 80s.

Can you describe this in more detail? If you spin to the left, don't you crash 
into the 1s spinning to the right?

Edmund Croft,
Cambridge, UK

Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[b...@hands4.com]

OK, OK, I'm as gullible as they come. (And, yes, I know that "gullible" is not 
in the dictionary. )

Thanks all for cluing me in.

And thanks for the words of support for my asking for simplicity and 
descriptive terms. 

Beth

-Original Message-
From: callers-boun...@sharedweight.net 
[mailto:callers-boun...@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Allen Ortep
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:47 PM
To: call...@sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

Greetings to all:

Beth wrote: "Seeing it in the dance below implies to me that he thinks
quite highly of himself,."
Yes, I do think highly of myself.

Mark wrote:  " Should you spell Allen's name backwards, you'll get petrO
nellA."
No.  Should you spell Petronella backwards, you get Allen Ortep.

Only after the dance "Allen Ortep's First Contra" had been popular for some
years, and had become well established as a "walnut" of the dance form, did
someone think to reverse both the move and it's spelling

Regards
Allen
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Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[Allen Ortep]

Greetings to all:

Beth wrote: "Seeing it in the dance below implies to me that he thinks
quite highly of himself,."
Yes, I do think highly of myself.

Mark wrote:  " Should you spell Allen's name backwards, you'll get petrO
nellA."
No.  Should you spell Petronella backwards, you get Allen Ortep.

Only after the dance "Allen Ortep's First Contra" had been popular for some
years, and had become well established as a "walnut" of the dance form, did
someone think to reverse both the move and it's spelling

Regards
Allen

Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[Jonathan Sivier]

On 11/24/2012 3:48 PM, Bill Baritompa wrote:

  Allen has taken an interesting backwards approach for his first dance
attempt. By reversing standard moves, he creates an unusual dance. It's
not clear that his dance move will enter the chestnuts category, so that
we will see more Allen Ortep's in future dances.

  He may wish to experiment with reverse swings for better flow.
It is interesting that this type of choreo goes over well in the southern
hemisphere see:

http://youtu.be/CBP8BPmw3Kg


   I've noticed a lot of reverse swings in the Australian dances I've 
looked at.  Probably something to do with the Coriolis effect.  ;-)


Jonathan
-
Jonathan Sivier
Caller of Contra, English and Early American Dances
jsivier AT illinois DOT edu
Dance Page: http://www.sivier.me/dance_leader.html
-
Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
A: It depends on what dance you call!

Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[Bill Baritompa]

Hi Michael,

 Allen has taken an interesting backwards approach for his first dance
attempt. By reversing standard moves, he creates an unusual dance. It's
not clear that his dance move will enter the chestnuts category, so that
we will see more Allen Ortep's in future dances.

 He may wish to experiment with reverse swings for better flow.
It is interesting that this type of choreo goes over well in the southern
hemisphere see:

http://youtu.be/CBP8BPmw3Kg

Cheers, Bill



Things change slightly with this dance by Allen Ortep..

Allen Ortep's First Contra
Becket Counter Clockwise

A1  Star left
 Right and left through on right diagonal

A2  Long lines forward, on the way back, partners roll away with a 1/2 sashe
 Circle right 3/4, pass through along set by left shoulder
to meet couple passed during the right and left of A1

B1  Balance and swing this neighbor.

B2  Allen Ortep turn (balance in a circle, then move as an individual
to the left one place in the circle while twirling counterclockwise)
 Partners swing.

Re: [Callers] How to Call a Petronella Turn?

[Michael Fuerst]

Things change slightly with this dance by Allen Ortep..

Allen Ortep's First Contra                    
Becket Counter Clockwise                       

A1      Star left
        Right and left through on right diagonal

A2      Long lines forward, on the way back, partners roll away with a 1/2 sashe
        Circle right 3/4, pass through along set by left shoulder
           to meet couple passed during the right and left of A1

B1      Balance and swing this neighbor.

B2      Allen Ortep turn (balance in a circle, then move as an individual
           to the left one place in the circle while twirling counterclockwise)
        Partners swing.

 
Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801       217-239-5844

Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Chrissy Fowler]

I call regularly for dances with large proportions of first/second-time dancers.

When I'm teaching the figure, I usually say something like "as in petronella" 
or "figure that comes from the chestnut/old dance petronella".  In your 
foursome, take hands in a ring, and all together, balance the ring.  Then I 
tell them they are going to 'move' to the right one place.  They can do this by 
stepping or by spinning.  If they spin, they do it over their right shoulder.  
Usually demonstrate this, either myself from the stage or with a foursome on 
the floor.  

When I'm prompting during the dance, I tend to use variations of 'move' to the 
right.  Sometimes 'spin,' depending on the crowd.

I got this idea of using the word 'move' from some other caller.  No idea now 
who it was.  (Please speak up if it was you!)

I like it because it explicitly gives people the option to avoid/skip the 
potentially-disorienting spin.  (For newbies, it can be confusing enough just 
remembering their destination.)  

I find it is a very popular figure.  Of all the requests I have ever fielded, a 
large proportion are "Can you call a dance tonight that has 
petronellas/petronella balance & spin?"  (Clap clap!)  

Chrissy Fowler
Belfast, ME



  

Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Jonathan Sivier]

On 11/23/2012 6:06 PM, Laur wrote:

I find spin sounds too close to swing so I use twirl... Maybe only my accent or 
enunciation


   I also tend to say twirl.  In fact, I will sometimes call the move 
the Petronella Twirl, that is the twirl figure from Petronella.  I've 
only called the original version of Petronella, with only the actives 
moving, once in a classic contra workshop.  However, I recently came 
across a dance that uses the same figure, but with everyone doing it at 
the same time with their neighbors.  The dance is The Country Doctor's 
Reel by Merilee Karr.  It can be found in  the book Give and Take and is 
also on page 14 of the 2008 Ralph Page Legacy Weekend syllabus from 2008.


Jonathan

Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Laur]

I find spin sounds too close to swing so I use twirl... Maybe only my accent or 
enunciation

Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Perry Shafran]

I tend to agree with Rich - I just say balance and spin to the right and 
sometimes don't even use the term Petronella.  I think that it's a little more 
descriptive than to say "Petronella turn" - although by way of the folk process 
that's what it's come to be known as.  And plus in the patter of the call, it's 
easier and more rhythmic to say "balance, spin to the right" or something like 
that.  Did you know that in the original Petronella chestnut dance, instead of 
balance and spin, it's spin and balance?  


Perry




 From: Alan Winston <wins...@slac.stanford.edu>
To: call...@sharedweight.net 
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?
 
I feel kind of stuck in perpetuating the use of the term "Petronella".  I'll 
use it in the walkthrough because that
orients the experienced dancers immediately and than call "spin" or "twirl" and 
probably keep calling
"make a ring and balance now" longer than than I call the twirl.) I think it's 
courteous to the newer dancers to
identify how the figure is commonly called so they'll have a chance of knowing 
it the next time somebody else calls it, but it certainly is just about the 
most undescriptive name possible.

Scottish dancing also has a "Petronella turn" - not surprisingly, since the 
chestnut contra seems to derive from something published in Edinburgh by Gow 
in, uh, 1820 or something - but it is different in detail from the contra one.  
(And in the Scottish dance, the actives only do the Petronella move first, then 
balance (pas-de-basque) in place.)   Dudley Laufman wrote some time back that 
the chestnut contra had the same thing as the Scottish - just the actives 
traveling - until somebody imported the all-in-and-out all-travel-twirling from 
an English trad dance called Roxburgh Castle (which uses a rant step, 
incidentally).  So the whole BTR-Petronella-turn thing is completely a 
20th-century invention in contra dancing.  [Not that this is directly 
responsive to the original question; I just think it's interesting.]

-- Alan


On 11/23/2012 1:30 PM, Rich Goss wrote:
> I never use the term Petronella for that move.  It's always "spin to the 
> right" or twirl to the right" For me. Petronella is the name of a Chestnut 
> that the move comes from as most all of you know.   Callers used to say "as 
> in the dance Peronella..." but through the evolutionary process is no longer 
> mentioned.  The move has taken on the name of the dance.   That said, if's my 
> personal preference not to use that name for the move.  It does bug me a 
> little when other callers use it as the name for the move, but not enough to 
> say anything or lose any sleep over it.
> 
> Rich
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Maia McCormick <maia@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> So I had my first introduction to contradance through my school, taught by
>>> student callers who had been taught by student callers before them, etc. I
>>> was first taught to call a Petronella as... a Petronella. And then as I
>>> started going to more outside dances and started reading up on the practice
>>> of calling, I heard the move more and more just called as "balance the ring
>>> and spin to the right" or "balance the ring and spin to swap."
>>> 
>>> So, esteemed caller-folk, I ask you: how do* you* call a Petronella Turn?
>>> By name, or with some other turn of phrase? Do you have any sense how
>>> widespread either of these conventions are? Why not just call a Petronella
>>> a Petronella? If you call it by description rather than by name, do you
>>> generally put the entire call together (e.g. "BALance the RING and SPIN to
>>> the RIGHT") or break it up ("BALance the RING... and SPIN to the RIGHT" so
>>> that "spin to the right" ends up coming on beats 3 & 4, just before the
>>> actual spinning occurs)? Any thoughts are welcome!
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Maia
>>> ___
>>> Callers mailing list
>>> call...@sharedweight.net
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Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Alan Winston]

I feel kind of stuck in perpetuating the use of the term "Petronella".  
I'll use it in the walkthrough because that
orients the experienced dancers immediately and than call "spin" or 
"twirl" and probably keep calling
"make a ring and balance now" longer than than I call the twirl.) I 
think it's courteous to the newer dancers to
identify how the figure is commonly called so they'll have a chance of 
knowing it the next time somebody else calls it, but it certainly is 
just about the most undescriptive name possible.


Scottish dancing also has a "Petronella turn" - not surprisingly, since 
the chestnut contra seems to derive from something published in 
Edinburgh by Gow in, uh, 1820 or something - but it is different in 
detail from the contra one.  (And in the Scottish dance, the actives 
only do the Petronella move first, then balance (pas-de-basque) in 
place.)   Dudley Laufman wrote some time back that the chestnut contra 
had the same thing as the Scottish - just the actives traveling - until 
somebody imported the all-in-and-out all-travel-twirling from an English 
trad dance called Roxburgh Castle (which uses a rant step, 
incidentally).  So the whole BTR-Petronella-turn thing is completely a 
20th-century invention in contra dancing.  [Not that this is directly 
responsive to the original question; I just think it's interesting.]


-- Alan


On 11/23/2012 1:30 PM, Rich Goss wrote:

I never use the term Petronella for that move.  It's always "spin to the right" or twirl to 
the right" For me. Petronella is the name of a Chestnut that the move comes from as most all of you 
know.   Callers used to say "as in the dance Peronella..." but through the evolutionary 
process is no longer mentioned.  The move has taken on the name of the dance.   That said, if's my 
personal preference not to use that name for the move.  It does bug me a little when other callers use 
it as the name for the move, but not enough to say anything or lose any sleep over it.

Rich


On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Maia McCormick  wrote:


So I had my first introduction to contradance through my school, taught by
student callers who had been taught by student callers before them, etc. I
was first taught to call a Petronella as... a Petronella. And then as I
started going to more outside dances and started reading up on the practice
of calling, I heard the move more and more just called as "balance the ring
and spin to the right" or "balance the ring and spin to swap."

So, esteemed caller-folk, I ask you: how do* you* call a Petronella Turn?
By name, or with some other turn of phrase? Do you have any sense how
widespread either of these conventions are? Why not just call a Petronella
a Petronella? If you call it by description rather than by name, do you
generally put the entire call together (e.g. "BALance the RING and SPIN to
the RIGHT") or break it up ("BALance the RING... and SPIN to the RIGHT" so
that "spin to the right" ends up coming on beats 3 & 4, just before the
actual spinning occurs)? Any thoughts are welcome!

Cheers,
Maia
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Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Andrea Nettleton]

I call Balance, and Spin to the right.  A spin is executed with no hands held.  
In Contra, we have a number of moves and flourishes in which twirl means 
connected by hands and either swapping places or turning one person with the 
joined hand.  So I think it avoids confusion to say spin when we mean for hands 
to disconnect during the move.  So this applies to Rory O More spins too.  
Likewise, since all parties are moving the same direction in a petronella spin, 
there is no swapping going on, but rather a counter-clockwise shift around the 
ring. Save swap for moves where people are literally trading places.  I have 
heard and used both prompting patterns.  
Best wishes on your calling journey.
Andrea N. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 23, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Maia McCormick  wrote:

> So I had my first introduction to contradance through my school, taught by
> student callers who had been taught by student callers before them, etc. I
> was first taught to call a Petronella as... a Petronella. And then as I
> started going to more outside dances and started reading up on the practice
> of calling, I heard the move more and more just called as "balance the ring
> and spin to the right" or "balance the ring and spin to swap."
> 
> So, esteemed caller-folk, I ask you: how do* you* call a Petronella Turn?
> By name, or with some other turn of phrase? Do you have any sense how
> widespread either of these conventions are? Why not just call a Petronella
> a Petronella? If you call it by description rather than by name, do you
> generally put the entire call together (e.g. "BALance the RING and SPIN to
> the RIGHT") or break it up ("BALance the RING... and SPIN to the RIGHT" so
> that "spin to the right" ends up coming on beats 3 & 4, just before the
> actual spinning occurs)? Any thoughts are welcome!
> 
> Cheers,
> Maia
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Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Rich Goss]

I never use the term Petronella for that move.  It's always "spin to the right" 
or twirl to the right" For me. Petronella is the name of a Chestnut that the 
move comes from as most all of you know.   Callers used to say "as in the dance 
Peronella..." but through the evolutionary process is no longer mentioned.  The 
move has taken on the name of the dance.   That said, if's my personal 
preference not to use that name for the move.  It does bug me a little when 
other callers use it as the name for the move, but not enough to say anything 
or lose any sleep over it. 

Rich

> 
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Maia McCormick  wrote:
> 
>> So I had my first introduction to contradance through my school, taught by
>> student callers who had been taught by student callers before them, etc. I
>> was first taught to call a Petronella as... a Petronella. And then as I
>> started going to more outside dances and started reading up on the practice
>> of calling, I heard the move more and more just called as "balance the ring
>> and spin to the right" or "balance the ring and spin to swap."
>> 
>> So, esteemed caller-folk, I ask you: how do* you* call a Petronella Turn?
>> By name, or with some other turn of phrase? Do you have any sense how
>> widespread either of these conventions are? Why not just call a Petronella
>> a Petronella? If you call it by description rather than by name, do you
>> generally put the entire call together (e.g. "BALance the RING and SPIN to
>> the RIGHT") or break it up ("BALance the RING... and SPIN to the RIGHT" so
>> that "spin to the right" ends up coming on beats 3 & 4, just before the
>> actual spinning occurs)? Any thoughts are welcome!
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Maia
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> call...@sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

Re: [Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[George Mercer]

I use the term "Petronella" while teaching.  When calling during the dance
I usually just say "twirl"

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Maia McCormick  wrote:

> So I had my first introduction to contradance through my school, taught by
> student callers who had been taught by student callers before them, etc. I
> was first taught to call a Petronella as... a Petronella. And then as I
> started going to more outside dances and started reading up on the practice
> of calling, I heard the move more and more just called as "balance the ring
> and spin to the right" or "balance the ring and spin to swap."
>
> So, esteemed caller-folk, I ask you: how do* you* call a Petronella Turn?
> By name, or with some other turn of phrase? Do you have any sense how
> widespread either of these conventions are? Why not just call a Petronella
> a Petronella? If you call it by description rather than by name, do you
> generally put the entire call together (e.g. "BALance the RING and SPIN to
> the RIGHT") or break it up ("BALance the RING... and SPIN to the RIGHT" so
> that "spin to the right" ends up coming on beats 3 & 4, just before the
> actual spinning occurs)? Any thoughts are welcome!
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

[Callers] How to call a Petronella Turn?

[Maia McCormick]

So I had my first introduction to contradance through my school, taught by
student callers who had been taught by student callers before them, etc. I
was first taught to call a Petronella as... a Petronella. And then as I
started going to more outside dances and started reading up on the practice
of calling, I heard the move more and more just called as "balance the ring
and spin to the right" or "balance the ring and spin to swap."

So, esteemed caller-folk, I ask you: how do* you* call a Petronella Turn?
By name, or with some other turn of phrase? Do you have any sense how
widespread either of these conventions are? Why not just call a Petronella
a Petronella? If you call it by description rather than by name, do you
generally put the entire call together (e.g. "BALance the RING and SPIN to
the RIGHT") or break it up ("BALance the RING... and SPIN to the RIGHT" so
that "spin to the right" ends up coming on beats 3 & 4, just before the
actual spinning occurs)? Any thoughts are welcome!

Cheers,
Maia