Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
How many bells whistles would we have to make a try it web page? A pretty CSS, a bit of javascrip to avoid submitting forms, and it could look like an actual toplevel. Like Thomas and Fabrice said, I am currently working on a Try it web page. I am using Jérôme Vouillon's toplevel [1] and try to make it more user friendly with pretty CSS :-) The main goal is to let new users and beginners to try OCaml without installing anything and with some exercises/lessons/tutorials. I have a git repository on [2]. [1] http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html [2] https://github.com/cago/tryocaml -- Çagdas Bozman cagdas.boz...@ocamlpro.com -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
Maybe you could use Jérome Diminio's utop, which provide automatic completion in the top level. The great difficulty is just to adapt ncurses to javascript.. Le 18 déc. 2011 15:43, Çagdas Bozman cagdas.boz...@ocamlpro.com a écrit : How many bells whistles would we have to make a try it web page? A pretty CSS, a bit of java... Like Thomas and Fabrice said, I am currently working on a Try it web page. I am using Jérôme Vouillon's toplevel [1] and try to make it more user friendly with pretty CSS :-) The main goal is to let new users and beginners to try OCaml without installing anything and with some exercises/lessons/tutorials. I have a git repository on [2]. [1] http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html [2] https://github.com/cago/tryocaml -- Çagdas Bozman cagdas.boz...@ocamlpro.com -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/... -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
Le dimanche 18 décembre 2011 à 21:26 +0100, Pierre-Alexandre Voye a écrit : Maybe you could use Jérome Diminio's utop, which provide automatic completion in the top level. The great difficulty is just to adapt ncurses to javascript.. Do not try to adapt ncurses to javascript... By the way UTop does not use ncurses, it uses lambda-term which is written in OCaml and also works on Windows. But the completion module does not need it. It only requires compiler libraries. Currently it is an internal module, but if anybody want to use it i can create a small independent library for it, just ask me. -- Jérémie PS: it is *Jérémie* Dimino ;-) -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
Cagdas Bozman is already working on a tryocaml website, I will ask him if he can make a public repository for it on github. I think he based his work on js_of_ocaml toplevel, with a few enhancements. --Fabrice On 12/16/2011 09:02 PM, Andrej Bauer wrote: Here it is: http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html How many bells whistles would we have to make a try it web page? A pretty CSS, a bit of javascrip to avoid submitting forms, and it could look like an actual toplevel. -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs attachment: fabrice_le_fessant.vcf
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 21:12, Thomas Gazagnaire tho...@ocamlpro.com wrote: Çagdas Bozman has just started a similar project: https://github.com/cago/tryocaml http://bozman.cagdas.free.fr/tryocaml/ Very nice work! -- Paolo -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
RE: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
Wouldn't it be preferable for students to use OCaml in a browser? I'm just teaching a bunch of people F# and I've recommended tryfsharp.org to them for that reason. Perhaps it would be better to build something comparable in the OCaml world, rather than starting down the arduous route of an easy-to-install optimizing native code compiler? Cheers, Jon. -Original Message- From: Andrej Bauer [mailto:andrej.ba...@andrej.com] Sent: 15 December 2011 07:30 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user Recent discussions on how to improve the Ocaml-on-windows situation are very welcome, but I see a lot of tech-speak and little feeling for the users, who care just about one thing: to have a click install distribution of Ocaml that actually works. Keep this in mind: 90% of potential Ocaml users are on Windows, and they never heard of Mingw or Cygwin, and they never used a command prompt. It doesn't matter if the distribution is incomplete. It doesn't matter what is under the hood. It doesn't matter what the expert thinks about it, much less so what Linux people think about it (I am typing this on a Linux box). Someone just needs to do it, and Jonathan Protzenko seems an obvious candidate. Jonathan, if you have the time to modify your distribution so that it become self-contained, i.e., it contains mingw + ocaml (does _not_ separately install mingw, it just sticks it under ocaml and then ocaml uses that, independently of whether there already is a mingw on the system), I am sure that will be received very positively by many people, even though the experts will spit on it, and will point out that this is not The Right Way, etc. Just do it. Once we have such a thing, it can be optimized to our hearts content: strip down mingw, check if mingw is already there, add support for flexdll, etc. The said fact is that I would _love_ to teach Ocaml to my students, but I can't because installing Ocaml is too hard. Just give me _anything_ that actually works. Otherwise I will keep teaching functional programming with Mathematica... That's my opinion. With kind regards, Andrej -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
Here it is: http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html How many bells whistles would we have to make a try it web page? A pretty CSS, a bit of javascrip to avoid submitting forms, and it could look like an actual toplevel. -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
Js_of_OCaml is your friend, see http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/manual/ The online demo is not working for me (stuck in a terminal airport), but I have seen it several times working on Jerome's browser, and it's quite cool --Roberto http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 08:56:37PM +0100, Andrej Bauer wrote: That's a good idea, actually, because the barrier to entry is 0. I could even run my own server. Wasn't there a javascript implementation of the ocaml toplevel? It should be possible to upload/download files, though. On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote: Wouldn't it be preferable for students to use OCaml in a browser? I'm just teaching a bunch of people F# and I've recommended tryfsharp.org to them for that reason. Perhaps it would be better to build something comparable in the OCaml world, rather than starting down the arduous route of an easy-to-install optimizing native code compiler? Cheers, Jon. -Original Message- From: Andrej Bauer [mailto:andrej.ba...@andrej.com] Sent: 15 December 2011 07:30 To: caml-list@inria.fr Subject: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user Recent discussions on how to improve the Ocaml-on-windows situation are very welcome, but I see a lot of tech-speak and little feeling for the users, who care just about one thing: to have a click install distribution of Ocaml that actually works. Keep this in mind: 90% of potential Ocaml users are on Windows, and they never heard of Mingw or Cygwin, and they never used a command prompt. It doesn't matter if the distribution is incomplete. It doesn't matter what is under the hood. It doesn't matter what the expert thinks about it, much less so what Linux people think about it (I am typing this on a Linux box). Someone just needs to do it, and Jonathan Protzenko seems an obvious candidate. Jonathan, if you have the time to modify your distribution so that it become self-contained, i.e., it contains mingw + ocaml (does _not_ separately install mingw, it just sticks it under ocaml and then ocaml uses that, independently of whether there already is a mingw on the system), I am sure that will be received very positively by many people, even though the experts will spit on it, and will point out that this is not The Right Way, etc. Just do it. Once we have such a thing, it can be optimized to our hearts content: strip down mingw, check if mingw is already there, add support for flexdll, etc. The said fact is that I would _love_ to teach Ocaml to my students, but I can't because installing Ocaml is too hard. Just give me _anything_ that actually works. Otherwise I will keep teaching functional programming with Mathematica... That's my opinion. With kind regards, Andrej -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs -- --Roberto Di Cosmo -- Professeur En delegation a l'INRIA PPS E-mail: robe...@dicosmo.org Universite Paris Diderot WWW : http://www.dicosmo.org Case 7014Tel : ++33-(0)1-57 27 92 20 5, Rue Thomas Mann F-75205 Paris Cedex 13 Identica: http://identi.ca/rdicosmo FRANCE. Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdicosmo -- Attachments: MIME accepted, Word deprecated http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -- Office location: Bureau 6C08 (6th floor) 175, rue du Chevaleret, XIII Metro Chevaleret, ligne 6 -- -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html How many bells whistles would we have to make a try it web page? A pretty CSS, a bit of javascrip to avoid submitting forms, and it could look like an actual toplevel. Çagdas Bozman has just started a similar project: https://github.com/cago/tryocaml http://bozman.cagdas.free.fr/tryocaml/ It's still work in progress, though. -- Thomas -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Andrej Bauer andrej.ba...@andrej.com wrote: Here it is: http://ocsigen.org/js_of_ocaml/files/toplevel/index.html Another using the Cadmium (http://cadmium.x9c.fr/): http://ocamljava.x9c.fr/toplevel/toplevel.html Hez -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
Re: [Caml-list] Don't forget the user
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Andrej Bauer andrej.ba...@andrej.com wrote: Recent discussions on how to improve the Ocaml-on-windows situation are very welcome, but I see a lot of tech-speak and little feeling for the users, who care just about one thing: to have a click install distribution of Ocaml that actually works. Keep this in mind: 90% of potential Ocaml users are on Windows, and they never heard of Mingw or Cygwin, and they never used a command prompt. It doesn't matter if the distribution is incomplete. It doesn't matter what is under the hood. There's another use case for a good OCaml-on-windows - people who want to write once and deploy everywhere. For that, it matters very much if the distribution is incomplete. I agree that a nice, beginner-friendly package would be a plus, though, ideally combined with a lightweight ide that is preconfigured to find the compiler in the same place that the installer puts it. martin -- Caml-list mailing list. Subscription management and archives: https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs
