Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Hello all! I am in Italy. The perception around here is, as many said, that in the enterprise world nobody cares about Perl; there's no big Ruby scene, on the other hand. Python is going a lot better, but the key role is being played by Java, C#.NET, etc.. Finding Perl programmers in my area is not a big problem, because I usually look for any-language programmers who can then learn Perl. Come on, a good coder can learn a new language quickly. The real problem is finding _good_ programmers, no matter the language. ;-) As for PHP its barrier to entry is so low perl will never ever compete in that space until it can match both the simplicity of the language and ease of installation and deployment. I agree with you, mostly. However, most PHP applications are small web sites, coded directly by web designers who wouldn't be able (not because they're idiots, but because there core job is web design) to write anything but a few lines of PHP to submit a form or display a dynamic description of a product on a web page. Perl/Catalyst has to fight with PHP (and of course Rails, etc...) on the larger applications, I think there's no point in trying to enter the small web sites market. Perl 5 is a lost cause, IMO. It's just too hard, too crufty, too weighed down by years of negative perception. Perl 6 is our only hope. (And I sincerely hope they call it something different from Perl 6) Perl 7? :-) Michele. -- Michele Beltrame http://www.varlogarthas.net/ ICQ# 76660101 Informativa privacy: http://www.italpro.net/em.html ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
A. Pagaltzis wrote: Ruby is popular because it takes most of Perl 5, throws out all the crappy crud, much of which Larry is also throwing out in Perl 6 (type globs? wtf?), adds a sane OO system, which Larry is also doing in Perl 6, and puts the whole thing into a simple regular syntax that has a few *very* nice touches. The inline closure syntax in Ruby is just beautiful; trying to do the same thing in Perl makes me cringe. It's quotes like this that for me show the disadvantags of Perl 6. People start using it as an argument on why Perl 5 is bad, ugly, flawed. I love Perl's OO system, it's low-levelity and it's flexibility. But many people say it sucks. When I tell them why I think that's wrong they just say What do you know, even Larry Wall thinks like me! I'd love the intarnets much more if people would stay away from labelling things as sane or insane without arguments, or at least with a clearance that it's only a personal opinion. Because absolutisms are wrong all the time. Sure, Ruby may suck in ways that Perl doesn’t, but the reverse is also true. I, for one, just dislike Ruby's syntax for example. gr., Robert ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Alvar Freude wrote: Perl IS NOT dead. But for people who are not part of the Perl community, it either looks dead (or only for some small shell scripting) or they don#t know it at all. And then there's the people who just like to talk. Many of those who say Perl is ugly the loudest haven't even seen a real Perl project in their whole life. They're just passing along the jokes about Perl because they want to be part of the group. I even heard Perl?! With that ugly sytax?! from people who haven't written more than 500 lines of code in their entire life. The biggest problem that Perl has at the moment (imho) is not the lack of positive marketing, but the people working against it, for whatever reason. gr., Robert ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Webdevelopment platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Hi all, OK, we all know on this list that on a technical level, Perl is definitely NOT dead. But on a social level, it is really in danger of dying, because there are fewer and fewer young programmers entering the community, and fewer companies investing on Perl for important projects. So it's a common duty for all people who love Perl to seize every opportunity to market it to the outside world ; just sitting there and shouting we are the best is not enough. The Plat_form contest is a unique opportunity to demonstrate and publicize the power of Perl, so this is why we decided to submit a Geneva team ; and we are lucky that our managers agreed to give some money, and to take some days out of our internal development project for going to the contest. It is just too sad, and actually quite worrying, that there aren't many other Perl teams. By the way, maybe we will also find out that Perl is not the best, and that other platforms have much better results --- that's a risk we are taking, but will be a very instructive lesson to learn. Laurent Dami ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Brandon Black wrote:
On 11/30/06, Sebastian Riedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And p5 development is not as active as you might think,
just take a look at the comments under
http://use.perl.org/~sri/journal/31519.
The quote Perl5 is not dead, it's just very, very stable sums it up
quite well.
216 distinct threads in the past 3 weeks on the p5p mailing list
(according to gmail) say otherwise. P5 development is definitely
active. The upload activity on CPAN is on a constant upwards trend.
The mere existence of groundbreaking modules like Moose are hard
evidence as well.
In fact, P5P has more traffic than all the Perl6 lists combined. My
perl6 folder has 163 unread messages, and p5p has 754. (Yes, I'm a bit
behind.)
Perl. Is. Not. Dead.
Is there anything more we need to add to this discussion?
--
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)-config(name = do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
;$;]-[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;-setup;
___
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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/1/06, Jonathan Rockway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl. Is. Not. Dead. No one *here* is stating that Perl is really dead. Otherwise we'd all be undead zombies from hell or something like that. Anyone who's inside the Perl community knows it's alive and kicking and that most of Perl's widely known problems are actually FUD. The real problem is that it currently seems to be an ever shrinking community. Perl's liveliness needs exposure besides what has already been done - that's what everyone is arguing for IMO. And, of course, it's much easier said than done. -Nilson Santos F. Jr. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
On Dec 1, 2006, at 8:45 AM, Jonathan Rockway wrote: Perl. Is. Not. Dead. Is there anything more we need to add to this discussion? The last two big companies I worked for were both moving away from Perl. One of them was Amazon.com (I known there are still a few boosters and projects for Perl there but as a whole the company has become quite anti-Perl and has been rewriting everything in Java it can get budget money for). It isn't because Perl isn't useful, Perl helped build both of the companies, but because it has an image of not being up to the task. Sure Perl's not dead but that's at least 100 high paying, high profile Perl jobs in my town alone that are gone. Not because Perl sucks but because a lot of people think it does. There is nothing wrong with trying to improve Perl's image. ...If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Yep. -Ashley ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 04:43:03PM -0200, Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior wrote: On 12/1/06, Jonathan Rockway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl. Is. Not. Dead. No one *here* is stating that Perl is really dead. Otherwise we'd all be undead zombies from hell or something like that. Anyone who's inside the Perl community knows it's alive and kicking and that most of Perl's widely known problems are actually FUD. The real problem is that it currently seems to be an ever shrinking community. Unfortunately, FUD drives the real world. How often do projects get written in Perl or Ruby or Python because it is the best choice vs. what the managers think is the best choice? What's the goal? Open up the paper and see lots of listing for Perl jobs? That managers pick Perl/Catalyst over another solution? That Perl is popular enough to drive up demand for good perl programmers? Perl and Catalyst can do the job. We know that. So the problem is getting the word out. Perl's liveliness needs exposure besides what has already been done - that's what everyone is arguing for IMO. And, of course, it's much easier said than done. Right. Public relation firms exist for a good reason. But PR is expensive. Without some good corporate sponsorship we would need a bit of fund raising. I wonder how much income has been generated from using Catalyst. I'd give a small chunk of cash to TPF (or whatever) if I knew there were enough others doing the same to make it count. I joked once on IRC about Catalyst certification -- ads in IT magazines would suggest that managers look for and higher only certified Cat programmers... Of course, those are the ones who's dues paid for the ad in the first place. What was that organization that did all those TCO reports for Microsoft? -- Bill Moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/1/06, Bill Moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 04:43:03PM -0200, Nilson Santos Figueiredo Junior wrote: On 12/1/06, Jonathan Rockway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl. Is. Not. Dead. No one *here* is stating that Perl is really dead. Otherwise we'd all be undead zombies from hell or something like that. Anyone who's inside the Perl community knows it's alive and kicking and that most of Perl's widely known problems are actually FUD. The real problem is that it currently seems to be an ever shrinking community. Unfortunately, FUD drives the real world. How often do projects get written in Perl or Ruby or Python because it is the best choice vs. what the managers think is the best choice? What's the goal? Open up the paper and see lots of listing for Perl jobs? That managers pick Perl/Catalyst over another solution? That Perl is popular enough to drive up demand for good perl programmers? On the other side of the coin, my company is actively hiring right now and we've been flooded by people who have that same perception and poor Perl knowledge. To the point that we've had candidates inform us it would be highly advantageous to rewrite certain parts in C (of all languages). Perl has always had a stigma attached to it that it was a hackish language. This comes from perl4, in my opinion. When Perl 5 came out, it turned Perl into a language that can actually be used for larger projects, and used very well. I believe Perl 6 will take the simplicity that Perl offers, as well as the capability and put a new face on it that will help justify the time to give Perl a second look. Perl is not dead. However, Perl is not a language many people feel comfortable putting their career on the line. A very good friend of mine, who is a brilliant programmer, abandoned Perl for Java because of job security. I'm hoping to win him back to the Perl side, but he's not alone. Why bother risking the safety of your career because you want to hang on to what most people consider an out-of-date and less capable language? There is very little incentive to do so. Right now it is more beneficial for developers to focus on other languages, because there are more jobs out there. Regardless of death, that part is true and easily substantiated. My opinion on changing that is to simply do very cool things in Perl, get people who want to work on cool things, and just get it done. Things like plat_forms help, as well, and I hope the Catalyst team does very well. Hopefully these things help contribute in someway to promote the idea that Perl is a good language. -J. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
J. Shirley wrote:
A very good friend of mine, who is a brilliant programmer, abandoned
Perl for Java because of job security. I'm hoping to win him back to
the Perl side, but he's not alone. Why bother risking the safety of
your career because you want to hang on to what most people consider
an out-of-date and less capable language?
Hmm, I didn't know that you were only allowed to know one programming
language. You probably don't want to tell him this, but [whispering]
some people know both! I hear some legends even know... get this...
*three* programming languages!
--
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)-config(name = do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
;$;]-[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;-setup;
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Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/1/06, Jonathan Rockway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J. Shirley wrote: A very good friend of mine, who is a brilliant programmer, abandoned Perl for Java because of job security. I'm hoping to win him back to the Perl side, but he's not alone. Why bother risking the safety of your career because you want to hang on to what most people consider an out-of-date and less capable language? Hmm, I didn't know that you were only allowed to know one programming language. You probably don't want to tell him this, but [whispering] some people know both! I hear some legends even know... get this... *three* programming languages! Hyperbole much? There is a difference between the languages known, and what is recognizable as a persons career language. The vast majority of developers focus specifically on one language, and then have other languages that they know, but to a lesser degree. As someone who has screened probably around a thousand resumes in the last 12 months, I can say that this is the way most developers are. If someone claims they are advanced or experts in more than one language, they tend to either be liars, or open source developers. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
apv wrote: The last two big companies I worked for were both moving away from Perl. One of them was Amazon.com (I known there are still a few boosters and projects for Perl there but as a whole the company has become quite anti-Perl and has been rewriting everything in Java it can get budget money for). It isn't because Perl isn't useful, Perl helped build both of the companies, but because it has an image of not being up to the task. Sure Perl's not dead but that's at least 100 high paying, high profile Perl jobs in my town alone that are gone. Not because Perl sucks but because a lot of people think it does. Funny you mention Amazon switching to Java. I would expect more Ruby projects from them since the Jeff Bezos / 37signals deal. http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/bezos_expeditions_invests_in_37signals.php -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
On 12/1/06, Sebastian Riedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: apv wrote: The last two big companies I worked for were both moving away from Perl. One of them was Amazon.com (I known there are still a few boosters and projects for Perl there but as a whole the company has become quite anti-Perl and has been rewriting everything in Java it can get budget money for). It isn't because Perl isn't useful, Perl helped build both of the companies, but because it has an image of not being up to the task. Sure Perl's not dead but that's at least 100 high paying, high profile Perl jobs in my town alone that are gone. Not because Perl sucks but because a lot of people think it does. Funny you mention Amazon switching to Java. I would expect more Ruby projects from them since the Jeff Bezos / 37signals deal. http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/bezos_expeditions_invests_in_37signals.php -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ All of Amazon's front-end is in Mason (and as such, Perl) along with their middle-ware. The backend is changing out, but that has usually been in C/C++ and is switching to Java. -- J. Shirley :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: Killing two stones with one bird... http://www.toeat.com - http://code.toeat.com/~jshirley ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
[Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
On the home, you can see some websites where it is used. Catalyst need a section like Get excited, because people don't want to learn a language to discover if it's good or not. Allow me to agree, from the perspective of a Catalyst newbie. If we want more Perl/Catalyst developers, we need to make Perl and Catalyst approachable. For Perl, the job was excellently done by Rober'ts Perl Tutorial (http://www.sthomas.net/oldpages/roberts-perl-tutorial.htm). For Catalyst... Two weeks ago, I embarked on building a web application and researched the Perl framework offers. Catalyst seemed the most mature, flexible and with the best community support. I went to the documentation - in POD format. Not a big deal. I reached the tutorial at http://search.cpan.org/dist/Catalyst-Manual/lib/Catalyst/Manual/Tutorial.pod... and my enthusiasm vanished. The tutorial was very hard to grasp, mainly because it seemed to focus on DBIC more than Catalyst itself. I talked to several folks on #catalyst about this and they all seemed to agree. I had put away my hope in Catalyst for a while. I tend to think many Perl programmers may have preceeded me. People like novelty but fear change. Catalyst looked too hairy for me from the documentation that I was able to find at that point. Later, someone on #catalyst was kind to point me to a more accessible tutorial at http://desert-island.dynodns.net/kwiki/index.cgi?action=revisionspage_name=CatalystTutorialrevision_id=36 and after two weeks, I mustered the courage and went through it. Still, I had to discard all the extra bits (Authentication, Authorization) because I wanted to learn *about Catalyst* first, THEN about its plugins or DBIC. Not everyone is conversant in DBIC, and DBIC itself is no easy beast. Still, Catalyst didn't quite excite me. The kind of presentation I found exciting about a pseudo-competitor is here: http://www.yessoftware.com/products/features.php?product_id=1 I hate to say this, but Perl is really lacking some sort of marketing. To my mind Catalyst could be the new killer-app that has the potential to resurrect our favorite language. I recently attending a very compelling presentation about marketing products appealing to people's emotions rather than their logic. Of all people I know, I am one of the most logical and least emotional, yet after the presentation I recognized that some of my decision-making patterns were indeed influenced by emotion to a much higher degree than I thought. Basically, the presentation proved how customer numbers of Fortune 500 companies bumped after the marketing emphasized the negative characteristics of the competitors. Does your current phone company annoy the hell out of you? Switch to X. Does that software drive you nuts every time it forces you to do X? Switch to Y. etc. I'm pretty good with PHP and there are a ton more PHP frameworks, with better documentation than Catalyst. I chose Catalyst out of exactly this feeling: Stick it to the PHP man. What I'm saying is that every language brings its frustrations. When I'm asked why I prefer Perl to PHP I redirect the asker to http://tnx.nl/php . What if we build a list like that for Catalyst? Even more aggressive. Get Matt to expand a bit on why X is toss or Y is a half-framework. Actually target the weaknesses of other frameworks and languages and showcase how Catalyst and Perl overcome them. It may sound childish and flame-war-ish. I'll let you intellectuallize the presentation; I just saw how powerful this kind of marketing was. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
[Catalyst] Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder Patch
Index: Controller/FormBuilder/Action/TT.pm === --- Controller/FormBuilder/Action/TT.pm (revision 5658) +++ Controller/FormBuilder/Action/TT.pm (working copy) @@ -12,4 +12,7 @@ $controller-_formbuilder; } +package Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder::Action::TT::RenderView; +use base 'Catalyst::Action::RenderView'; + 1; Index: Controller/FormBuilder/Action/HTML/Template.pm === --- Controller/FormBuilder/Action/HTML/Template.pm (revision 5658) +++ Controller/FormBuilder/Action/HTML/Template.pm (working copy) @@ -133,4 +133,7 @@ } } +package Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder::Action::TT::RenderView; +use base 'Catalyst::Action::RenderView'; + 1; Index: Controller/FormBuilder/Action/Mason.pm === --- Controller/FormBuilder/Action/Mason.pm (revision 5658) +++ Controller/FormBuilder/Action/Mason.pm (working copy) @@ -13,4 +13,7 @@ $controller-_formbuilder; } +package Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder::Action::TT::RenderView; +use base 'Catalyst::Action::RenderView'; + 1; The issue: If Root.pm's controller is subclassed from Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder it *demands* for Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder::Action::TT::RenderView. The solution: This patch, provide Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder::Action::template system::RenderView for all three template systems. Comments? There might be a better solution for this, however, this is adequate for my needs. -Victor ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
