[cayugabirds-l] Hoary redpoll question.

2021-03-08 Thread Peter Saracino
Hi folks. I was watching some birds on a tray feeder recently -some
redpolls, tree sparrows, siskins and a few house sparrows. One redpoll
looked suspiciously like a hoary. While I've definitely seen 3 hoaries this
winter, I haven't yet seen enough to feel really confident in positively
identifying one.
Needless to say the house sparrows were bullying the other birds, and all
the other birds soon scattered. All but one - the "hoary"  It would have
none of the sparrows' bullying and, in fact, was quite aggressive toward
them. It charged at them and caused THEM to flee.
I was quite surprised by this so my question is this - do hoary redpolls
tend to be more aggressive than common redpolls? Might this be another
"mark" to help identify one?
Thanks for the help.
Pete Sar

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Hoary or not?

2013-01-28 Thread Geo Kloppel
John wrote:

 By the way, even if some newer studies can find a nuclear difference, we 
 still have to make a subjective decision about how much of a difference is 
 sufficient for us to accept them as one or two species. 

Our decisions may turn out better (we may reverse ourselves less often) if we 
can relax our desire for bright lines enough to acknowledge that speciation 
events can only be recognized retrospectively: there will be cases in which it 
is simply too soon to tell whether a permanent parting of ways has occurred. A 
few tens-of-thousands of generations might give us the answer, but at present 
there may be no fact of the matter.

-Geo Kloppel
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RE: [cayugabirds-l] Hoary or not?

2013-01-27 Thread John Confer
 I think the genetic analyses provide very strong evidence for a lack of 
speciation between/among redpolls. Providing additional very weak support, I 
have been able to watch 20-100 redpolls on the railing of our deck about 10' 
from our dining table. It has seemed to me that there is a gradation in size 
and color between what could have been a Hoary and what looked more like a pale 
common redpoll.
  (One of three Hoary-like birds on our deck one was quite sick. I was kind 
of hoping that the Sharpy that has been hanging out in our yard {His arrival 
corresponded to a great the decline in redpolls, probably because the big 
flocks decided not to feed here} would get get his meal from this sick bird.)
Still, I am not ready to totally reject the hypothesis of two species. I'm 
not totally convinced that they are only a gradation within the same species 
because of a similar situation with Golden-winged and Blue-winged warblers. At 
least as of a couple years ago there were no detected nuclear genetic markers 
that distinguished Golden-winged from Blue-winged warblers despite considerable 
effort to find them. But we know there are genetic differences between GW and 
BW. GW and BW look different. In some locations they select dramatically 
different microhabitats for nesting. They sing different primary songs 
(usually). They have distinct mitochondrial DNA, which suggests about 2 million 
years of isolation. If nulear DNA studies can't find the different genes that 
determine color, then such studies at a moderately detailed level by current 
techniques are not able to detect differences that we know do occur. By the 
way, even if some newer studies can find a nuclear difference, we still have to 
make a subjective decision about how much of a difference is sufficient for us 
to accept them as one or two species. Great fun this melding of nuclear 
genetics and birding.
John

From: bounce-72618183-25065...@list.cornll.edu 
[bounce-72618183-25065...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Geo Kloppel 
[geoklop...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:53 PM
To: cayugabirds-l
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Hoary or not?

Thanks, Laura, that ABA discussion was very interesting. I found myself in Ryan 
O'Donnell's camp; the reported lack of genetic differentiation between Common 
and Hoary Redpolls just didn't seem to justify the suggestion that we ought to 
practice Hoary Denial, and Andy Boyce's quick dismissal of the likely 
explanation left me groping for about three imperfectly remembered sentences 
from E. O. Wilson's popular writing. Happily, I didn't need to look them up, as 
Ryan neatly framed that explanation in just three words: incomplete lineage 
sorting.

Redpolls at my feeders peaked near 300. I tried hard to call one or two of them 
Hoary, but for whatever reason, I just couldn't make it stick. My failure had 
little if anything to do with doubts about the legitimacy of the split, and I'm 
not challenging anyone else's distinctions, but somehow I still feel better 
after reading through that discussion!

-Geo Kloppel

On Jan 24, 2013, at 11:23 AM, Laura Stenzler 
l...@cornell.edumailto:l...@cornell.edu wrote:

Hi All,
I found a very interesting article (link below), followed by a discussion, 
about the ‘Hoary Redpoll Question” which you might want to look at. Don’t skip 
the comments at the end. There are some familiar names taking part in that 
discussion.
Food for thought…..

http://blog.aba.org/2013/01/open-mic-redpolls.html

Laura


Laura Stenzler
Lab Manager
Fuller Evolutionary Biology Program
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
Ithaca, New York 14850
Office: (607) 254 2141
Lab:(607) 254 2142
Fax:(607) 254 2486
l...@cornell.edumailto:l...@cornell.edu



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Re:[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpolls, Sapsucker Woods

2013-01-24 Thread Jay McGowan
Hi all,
Sorry if my email was at all ambiguous yesterday, I certainly did not mean
to imply any doubt in the presence of these birds, only that I had not
personally seen them but wanted to get the word out to those who hadn't
heard. The only one I had seen at that point was what I called a probable
female, only because I hadn't gotten a great look and wasn't sure if
anyone else had seen it, but after seeing it again it looks great for a
female Hoary. Several other reliable folks got looks at the male Hoary on
Tuesday and I believe yesterday as well, as well as the two or more
rostrata Commons.

Here are a couple shots of the female Hoary a little before noon yesterday:
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013#5837046743855356226
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013#5837046740542652034
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013#5837046740484257202
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013#5837046746606254146
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013#5837046754743758850
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013#5837046753371691938

Haven't heard any reports of these birds yet today, but the flock seems to
still be around.

Good birding,
-Jay



On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Jay McGowan jw...@cornell.edu wrote:

 A probable female and a reported male HOARY REDPOLL are frequenting the
 north (and presumably south) feeders at the Lab of Ornithology at Sapsucker
 Woods today (and for a couple of days before this, apparently.) Also
 reportedly at least two Greater (rostrata) Common Redpolls.

 Jay




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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary or not?

2013-01-24 Thread Laura Stenzler
Hi All,
 I found a very interesting article (link below), followed by a discussion, 
about the 'Hoary Redpoll Question which you might want to look at. Don't skip 
the comments at the end. There are some familiar names taking part in that 
discussion.
 Food for thought.

http://blog.aba.org/2013/01/open-mic-redpolls.html

Laura



Laura Stenzler
Lab Manager
Fuller Evolutionary Biology Program
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
Ithaca, New York 14850
Office: (607) 254 2141
Lab:(607) 254 2142
Fax:(607) 254 2486
l...@cornell.edumailto:l...@cornell.edu




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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Hoary or not?

2013-01-24 Thread Geo Kloppel
Thanks, Laura, that ABA discussion was very interesting. I found myself in Ryan 
O'Donnell's camp; the reported lack of genetic differentiation between Common 
and Hoary Redpolls just didn't seem to justify the suggestion that we ought to 
practice Hoary Denial, and Andy Boyce's quick dismissal of the likely 
explanation left me groping for about three imperfectly remembered sentences 
from E. O. Wilson's popular writing. Happily, I didn't need to look them up, as 
Ryan neatly framed that explanation in just three words: incomplete lineage 
sorting. 

Redpolls at my feeders peaked near 300. I tried hard to call one or two of them 
Hoary, but for whatever reason, I just couldn't make it stick. My failure had 
little if anything to do with doubts about the legitimacy of the split, and I'm 
not challenging anyone else's distinctions, but somehow I still feel better 
after reading through that discussion!

-Geo Kloppel

On Jan 24, 2013, at 11:23 AM, Laura Stenzler l...@cornell.edu wrote:

 Hi All,
 I found a very interesting article (link below), followed by a discussion, 
 about the ‘Hoary Redpoll Question” which you might want to look at. Don’t 
 skip the comments at the end. There are some familiar names taking part in 
 that discussion.
 Food for thought…..
  
 http://blog.aba.org/2013/01/open-mic-redpolls.html
  
 Laura
  
  
 Laura Stenzler
 Lab Manager
 Fuller Evolutionary Biology Program
 Cornell Lab of Ornithology
 159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
 Ithaca, New York 14850
 Office: (607) 254 2141
 Lab:(607) 254 2142
 Fax:(607) 254 2486
 l...@cornell.edu
  
  
  
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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpolls, Sapsucker Woods

2013-01-23 Thread Jay McGowan
A probable female and a reported male HOARY REDPOLL are frequenting the
north (and presumably south) feeders at the Lab of Ornithology at Sapsucker
Woods today (and for a couple of days before this, apparently.) Also
reportedly at least two Greater (rostrata) Common Redpolls.

Jay

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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpoll and Snow Buntings

2013-01-22 Thread bilbaker
This morning around 9:30 I looked out at the Redpolls and other birds at
the feeders and found an overall lighter looking Redpoll with a white rump,
 and after a bit of watching, got a good enough look to confirm clean
unstreaked under tail coverts,  the first Hoary Redpoll on our yard list.
It was feeding not at the feeders, but on the Black eyed Susan seed heads
we had left in the front garden. 

Later this morning on my way home coming over Buffalo Hill Rd I found a
flock of close to 100 Snow Buntings on the fields of the Snow Farm. This is
the farm towards the south end of Buffalo Rd (the only farm on Buffalo Rd.)
While I did look for Longspurs, and found none, it was not a long look,  as
it was quite windy up there and I was less warmly covered than I could have
been...

Bill Baker



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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpoll in Brooktondale

2013-01-20 Thread Sandy Podulka
We have a Hoary Redpoll that's been coming consistently to our 
feeders in Brooktondale for the last few days!!  It has taken me 
about 30 looks and a few pictures to convince myself, but it really 
does look different


Sandy Podulka



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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpolls

2013-01-13 Thread Jay McGowan
Hi all,
I just saw a probable female HOARY REDPOLL in a group of about 220 Common
Redpolls that were working (and by working I mean flying over and
occasionally landing in trees for less than a minute at a time) the area
around the parking area of the new FLLT preserve on Irish Settlement Road,
south of Hammond Hill and north of the Park Preserve. This bird was paler
and fluffier than the birds it was with, with two thin streaks on the side,
ending before the flanks, a fluffy white rump, and apparently one thin
streak on the undertail. The flock was not cooperative and there could have
been other interesting birds. This may be the same group I had over the
Park Preserve half an hour ago.

This Hoary was very similar to a bird I had in a group of 350+ redpolls at
Fire Lane E on Lake Como Road yesterday morning. In addition to this
female, I had what appeared to be a male Hoary as well, perhaps the same
that Ann reported last week. Birds were flighty and difficult there too,
and there were some pale Commons as always, so be prepared for confusion
and frustration. Always fun to watch, though. A group of 20+ EVENING
GROSBEAKS was on East Lake Road here, but didn't stay long.

Jay

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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpoll

2013-01-08 Thread Ann Mitchell
Hi All,
Sorry for the late post. The Hoary Redpoll I saw was on Lake Como Road (in
Summer Hill) at Nick's place. Sorry I don't know the exact address. I
actually stayed on Lake Como Road even though his home is on the lake.
There was a cleared off area, so... I grabbed my scope and watched from
above. There were 3 or so feeders I could see, and Redpolls came in by the
numbers. The Hoary was distinctive to me because there were hardly any
strips on the sides. It did have a reddish breast, so it wasn't totally
frosty. The face was a little more squished in than the other Redpolls.
Three or so years back, Chris Wood and Jeff Gerbrecht helped me ID them.
Good Birding, Ann
ps  While I was there I heard a bird call 3 times. I had no idea what it
was and I couldn't find it. I am pretty good with bird songs, but I did't
recognize that sound. If you go there, please pay attention to it. Thanks.

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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpoll and N. Goshawk

2012-12-25 Thread John and Sue Gregoire
We had a large flock (over three dozen) Redpolls descend on the feeders today 
and
one was a classic Hoary; they joined Red-breasted Nuthatches and a huge flock of
goldfinch as well as two Pine Siskins. While doing our count here this morning 
we
had a beautiful adult male Northern Goshawk as well as a Northern Mockingbird,
cowbirds and red-wings among the more common species.

Merry Christmas to all

JS
--
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
Conserve and Create Habitat




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Re:[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpoll

2012-12-02 Thread Jay McGowan
Sorry for the somewhat vague directions earlier. The location we were
referring to was what we have generally called Mud Lock, called Cayuga Lock
in eBird and perhaps elsewhere. Tim and company found the flock on the west
shore, opposite River Road on the east side. We parking in the small lot
just north of the main parking area to view the eagle nest, then crossed
the lock on the small bridge (I didn't know you could do that!) The redpoll
flock was working a variety of weeds between two dikes on this side,
probably 120-150 birds all together, though the flock size would vary as
some birds moved out of sight behind the dikes. One of the birds was a
fairly obvious female HOARY, extremely pale (visible even in flight), with
very limited streaking on the sides, only a very thin streak on the
undertail, and a fluffy white rump. A second female was very likely another
Hoary, but not quite as obvious. Dim light and distant birds made for
difficult photography, but here is a shot of the more obvious bird:
https://picasaweb.google.com/37855303614931880/Winter20122013?authkey=Gv1sRgCLfOr5y2mYH36QE#5817549408969593586

Andrew Van Norstrand and I had been working up the lake and continued after
the redpolls. Generally it was very quiet today with the wind and the rain.
The only other real birds of note were several hundred Snow Geese and a
single juvenile ROSS'S GOOSE that flew into Knox-Marsellus Marsh while we
were scanning the other birds there.

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Jay McGowan jw...@cornell.edu wrote:

 Brad tried to post earlier, but he, Tim, and Luke found a HOARY REDPOLL
 with 100+ Common Redpolls feeding in the weeds on the other side of the
 Cayuga Lock at the north end of the lake. Bird is still present.

 Jay




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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpolls

2011-03-05 Thread grosb...@clarityconnect.com
Hello all,

Today there were ~150 COMMON REDPOLLS with 2 and maybe 3 HOARY REDPOLLS and
~20 American 
Goldfinches here at the house in Scott. There was a definite FEMALE HOARY
REDPOLL and an IMMATURE 
FEMALE HOARY REDPOLL present. A third immature Hoary looked good, but it
took off before I could get 
enough for a confirmation.

cheers,
Matt Young


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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpole - Beaver Lake Nature Center - Onandaga County

2011-02-10 Thread Jerry Lazarczyk
Gerry Rising and I visited the many feeders at the center by late morning 
Thursday. A good variety and numbers of feeder birds plus we saw additional 
birds walking in from the parking lot ($3/car). The Redpoles were late arriving 
but most species showed within 30 minutes of sitting down in the comfortable 
rocking chairs. It was difficult finding the Hoary but it stayed around long 
enough for good looks. Not much happening that we could see on the west side 
.side of Sodus Bay. Jerry LazarczykGrand Island NY

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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpoll, Greater Common Redpolls, Evening Grosbeaks and Purple Finches

2011-01-29 Thread grosb...@clarityconnect.com
Hello all,

Julie and I did a little birding and then snowshoeing today. In Scott on
Glen Haven Rd were 40+ COMMON 
REDPOLLS and 6 PURPLE FINCHES ( a few nice males). 

I talked to the person that lives at the Eaton Rd feeders Summerhill and he
said he hadn't seen the flock of 
30 Evening Grosbeaks in 10 days. I did however find 6 EVENING GROSBEAKS at
the Hovel Chalet on 
Fillmore --this is just uphill from Eaton Rd.

On Lake Como Rd at Fire Ln E there was a massive flock of 250+ COMMON
REDPOLLS. In the 30 minutes I 
checked the flock I found 1 Immature ssp. exilipes HOARY REDPOLL, 1
possible Immature ssp. 
hornemanni  Hoary Redpoll, and 2 good GREATER COMMON REDPOLLS. The
possible hornemanni was 
noticeably large and the two Greater Commons also noticeably larger and
darker than the other redpolls.  
The black bib was much more extensive on both Greater Common Redpolls. This
flock is worth spending 
some time with. It's one of the most impressive redpoll flocks I've ever
seen at a feeder station.  I could 
have stayed all day, but needed to get going for some snowshoeing.

cheers,
Matt 


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[cayugabirds-l] Hoary Redpolls- Richford

2011-01-04 Thread David McCartt
Hi All,

This morning Esther and I were treated to the sight of 110+ Redpolls as they 
swirled around our front yard.  Unfortunately I didn't have the time to really 
check them out but Esther did and she got a good count as they came down to 
forage under the feeders.  There were still some up in the elm but they 
scattered before she could count them.  However, she was pretty certain that 
there were a few HOARY REDPOLLS in this flock.  She noted that these birds were 
distinctly lighter in color than the others and really stood out amongst the 
crowd.

Good Birding,
David McCartt
Tubbs Hill Rd.
Richford

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