Re: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller
Hi Artem, the simulator is exactly what I was looking for - many thanks! We did build a small circuit to generate the voltage (-0.586mV for -15C), but this didn't work - probably, our circuit was too simple. 12V input looks energetically better to me than using a peltier chiller (I meant peliter, not piezo originally...) Second to that I like Mark's idea of a long cable for the couple and stick it in the next -20C cooler. And yes - I already confirmed with cooling by liquid nitrogen, that the concept works: when the thermocouple indicates cold enough, I can operate the diffractometer, and hence install our new alien detector. I was indeed looking for a long-term solution to make overnight measurements. Thanks to everyone. I feel overwhelmed with the large number of quick responses. Best, Tim On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 20:19:32 -0500 Artem Evdokimov wrote: > A basic Peltier element will likely work (may need a stack of two to > reach -20) however the simpler option indeed would be to 'fake out' > thermocouple input using a voltage, as described by Ivan. > > https://us.flukecal.com/Thermocouple-Temperature-Calculator > > And for $38 one can apparently purchase a thermocouple simulator > > https://www.brightwinelectronics.com/product/temperature-calibrator-k-n-thermocouple-generator-simulator > > Artem > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, 3:42 PM Rajkovic, Ivan < > 95c2dc0d4fa4-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> wrote: > > > Hi Tim, > > > > Not sure if this would work, but can you get a voltage supply and > > connect it instead of the thermocouple? You would need something to > > provide a few mV: > > https://www.thermocoupleinfo.com/type-k-thermocouple.htm > > > > > > Ivan > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: CCP4 bulletin board On Behalf Of Tim > > > Gruene > > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 11:57 AM > > > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > > Subject: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller > > > > > > Good day, > > > > > > I would like to cool a K-type thermocouple down to -15C. The > > > temperature > > does > > > not need to be very accurate, nor exactly -15C, just below that > > > level. > > > > > > I was thinking of using a piezo-chiller, but they don't seem to > > > be very > > energy > > > efficient. > > > > > > Could anyone make a recommendation for a simple device to cool > > > the tiny thermocouple to -15C to -20C? > > > > > > For the details: we have an inhouse diffractometer with a dead > > > detector. > > The > > > system is blocked, because the temperature of the detector needs > > > to be > > below - > > > 15C. It is measured with a K-type thermocouple. I tested with > > > liquid > > nitrogen. > > > The system show -64C (probably the limit of the thermocoupe) and > > > I can > > operate > > > the system (and mount our new (brand-alien) detector). > > > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > > > Best, > > > Tim > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > Tim Gruene > > > Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis Faculty of > > > Chemistry > > University > > > of Vienna > > > > > > Phone: +43-1-4277-70202 > > > > > > GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A > > > > > > # > > > ### > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > > > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > > > > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, > > > a > > mailing > > > list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are > > > available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a > > mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are > > available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a > mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are > available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ -- -- Tim Gruene Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis Faculty of Chemistry University of Vienna Phone: +43-1-4277-70202 GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/
Re: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller
A basic Peltier element will likely work (may need a stack of two to reach -20) however the simpler option indeed would be to 'fake out' thermocouple input using a voltage, as described by Ivan. https://us.flukecal.com/Thermocouple-Temperature-Calculator And for $38 one can apparently purchase a thermocouple simulator https://www.brightwinelectronics.com/product/temperature-calibrator-k-n-thermocouple-generator-simulator Artem On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, 3:42 PM Rajkovic, Ivan < 95c2dc0d4fa4-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> wrote: > Hi Tim, > > Not sure if this would work, but can you get a voltage supply and connect > it instead of the thermocouple? You would need something to provide a few > mV: > https://www.thermocoupleinfo.com/type-k-thermocouple.htm > > > Ivan > > > > -Original Message- > > From: CCP4 bulletin board On Behalf Of Tim > > Gruene > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 11:57 AM > > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > Subject: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller > > > > Good day, > > > > I would like to cool a K-type thermocouple down to -15C. The temperature > does > > not need to be very accurate, nor exactly -15C, just below that level. > > > > I was thinking of using a piezo-chiller, but they don't seem to be very > energy > > efficient. > > > > Could anyone make a recommendation for a simple device to cool the tiny > > thermocouple to -15C to -20C? > > > > For the details: we have an inhouse diffractometer with a dead detector. > The > > system is blocked, because the temperature of the detector needs to be > below - > > 15C. It is measured with a K-type thermocouple. I tested with liquid > nitrogen. > > The system show -64C (probably the limit of the thermocoupe) and I can > operate > > the system (and mount our new (brand-alien) detector). > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > Best, > > Tim > > > > -- > > -- > > Tim Gruene > > Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis Faculty of Chemistry > University > > of Vienna > > > > Phone: +43-1-4277-70202 > > > > GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A > > > > # > > ### > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a > mailing > > list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at > > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a > mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are > available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/
Re: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller
Hi Tim, Not sure if this would work, but can you get a voltage supply and connect it instead of the thermocouple? You would need something to provide a few mV: https://www.thermocoupleinfo.com/type-k-thermocouple.htm Ivan > -Original Message- > From: CCP4 bulletin board On Behalf Of Tim > Gruene > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2023 11:57 AM > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > Subject: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller > > Good day, > > I would like to cool a K-type thermocouple down to -15C. The temperature does > not need to be very accurate, nor exactly -15C, just below that level. > > I was thinking of using a piezo-chiller, but they don't seem to be very energy > efficient. > > Could anyone make a recommendation for a simple device to cool the tiny > thermocouple to -15C to -20C? > > For the details: we have an inhouse diffractometer with a dead detector. The > system is blocked, because the temperature of the detector needs to be below - > 15C. It is measured with a K-type thermocouple. I tested with liquid nitrogen. > The system show -64C (probably the limit of the thermocoupe) and I can operate > the system (and mount our new (brand-alien) detector). > > Thanks a lot! > > Best, > Tim > > -- > -- > Tim Gruene > Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis Faculty of Chemistry > University > of Vienna > > Phone: +43-1-4277-70202 > > GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A > > # > ### > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing > list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/
Re: [ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller
Hi Tim, This link might be useful: https://chem.libretexts.org/Ancillary_Materials/Demos_Techniques_and_Experiments/General_Lab_Techniques/Cooling_baths Best Ricardo On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 2:57 PM Tim Gruene wrote: > Good day, > > I would like to cool a K-type thermocouple down to -15C. The > temperature does not need to be very accurate, nor exactly -15C, just > below that level. > > I was thinking of using a piezo-chiller, but they don't seem to be very > energy efficient. > > Could anyone make a recommendation for a simple device to cool the tiny > thermocouple to -15C to -20C? > > For the details: we have an inhouse diffractometer with a dead > detector. The system is blocked, because the temperature of the > detector needs to be below -15C. It is measured with a K-type > thermocouple. I tested with liquid nitrogen. The system show -64C > (probably the limit of the thermocoupe) and I can operate the system > (and mount our new (brand-alien) detector). > > Thanks a lot! > > Best, > Tim > > -- > -- > Tim Gruene > Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis > Faculty of Chemistry > University of Vienna > > Phone: +43-1-4277-70202 > > GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a > mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are > available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ > -- Ricardo Padua HHMI Research Specialist Kern Lab Dept. of Biochemistry, MS009 Brandeis University Waltham, MA 02454, USA E-mail: rpa...@brandeis.edu To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/
[ccp4bb] small scale -15C chiller
Good day, I would like to cool a K-type thermocouple down to -15C. The temperature does not need to be very accurate, nor exactly -15C, just below that level. I was thinking of using a piezo-chiller, but they don't seem to be very energy efficient. Could anyone make a recommendation for a simple device to cool the tiny thermocouple to -15C to -20C? For the details: we have an inhouse diffractometer with a dead detector. The system is blocked, because the temperature of the detector needs to be below -15C. It is measured with a K-type thermocouple. I tested with liquid nitrogen. The system show -64C (probably the limit of the thermocoupe) and I can operate the system (and mount our new (brand-alien) detector). Thanks a lot! Best, Tim -- -- Tim Gruene Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis Faculty of Chemistry University of Vienna Phone: +43-1-4277-70202 GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ pgpKVPqtSevvD.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
