Re: [ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms?
We have the dehumidification for both 4C and 20C. Yes, drops dry out faster, probably; there are ways of mitigating, but to do it properly, in my opinion you need a Shifter<https://www.diamond.ac.uk/Instruments/Mx/Fragment-Screening/Resources.html>, sold by OLT<http://www.oxfordlabtech.com/> (*) -- it makes a big difference (manuscript due for submission). [(*) That's a shameless plug to the extent that we developed it, meaning I would say that. But the vendor OLT are selling and developing it on their own, and I'm a customer, not a founder.] On 26/09/2019 12:59, Sergei Strelkov wrote: Dear Frank and everyone, Thanks for useful tips. Snow in liquid nitrogen has been annoying us on a regular basis in fact. During some synchrotron sessions, a large percentage of crystals were covered with snow. We could never fully figure out how to get rid of it, although filtering LN2 before filling the vessel for freezing seemed to help a bit... Would installing a dehumidifier in a standard 20C crystallization room (where we mount most of our crystals) be a good idea? Any experiences there? I guess the downside would be that small crystallization drops would be drying more quickly... Best wishes, Sergei Prof. Sergei V. Strelkov Laboratory for Biocrystallography Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, KU Leuven O, Campus Gasthuisberg, Herestraat 49 bus 822, 3000 Leuven, Belgium Phone: +32 16 33 08 45, mobile: +32 486 29 41 32 Lab pages: http://pharm.kuleuven.be/Biocrystallography<http://pharm.kuleuven.be/anafar> From: CCP4 bulletin board <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> on behalf of Frank Von Delft <mailto:frank.vonde...@sgc.ox.ac.uk> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:03 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK<mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms? My colleague Opher Gileadi gave us an excellent tip when we were designing our 4C harvesting room, over a decade ago: set it to 7C. The crystals are unlikely to mind, but it's SO much more comfortable to be in for hours. I seem to remember he mentioned something like a comfort inflection point as you approach 4C. Install low-flow fans. Fridge people seem to default to installing hurricane machines, you have to tell them that a very very small flow is enough. Get strong light - probably even those daylight things (we don't have them). Being cold is miserable enough already, there's no need to compound it with weak light. Vibration - that dwindles to insignificance if the air flow goes down. Humidity - we installed (at considerable expense) a low humidity air supply - really hard to know just how much it helps, but a few years ago when I had it turned it off to help save energy, very quickly I heard complaints about snow in the liquid nitrogen becoming a major hassle. So based on that set of anecdotes, I conclude it probably is worth having dry air. It's much cheaper though if they can design it into the building's infrastructure, if it's a new building; retrofitting turned out to be super expensive (in our case). As dry as possible. Look at and understand the psychrometric chart (google it): if you're in even vaguely warm or temperate regions (or seasons), cooling the intake air to 4C brings it to below dew point, and then condensation and snow are guaranteed. Size - make it as big as you can get away with, with lots of bench and shelf space. Your students will already be miserably cold, no need for them to be cramped too. Good luck! Frank On 24/09/2019 23:40, Scott, Emily wrote: Anyone out there specifically design rooms for (protein) crystallization at ~22 deg and 4 deg C? If you have successes or failures and can share any design specs with regard to vibration, temperature, and humidity tolerances, it would be much appreciated to pass on to the architects for our new laboratory. Sincerely, Emily Scott -- Emily Scott, Ph.D. Professor, Medicinal Chemistry/Pharmacology/Biophysics Faculty Director, BioNMR Core Lab University of Michigan 428 Church Street Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1065 Phone: 734-764-3530 https://pharmacy.umich.edu/people/scottee Lab webpage: http://scottlab.info ** Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be used for urgent or sensitive issues To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
Re: [ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms?
Dear Frank and everyone, Thanks for useful tips. Snow in liquid nitrogen has been annoying us on a regular basis in fact. During some synchrotron sessions, a large percentage of crystals were covered with snow. We could never fully figure out how to get rid of it, although filtering LN2 before filling the vessel for freezing seemed to help a bit... Would installing a dehumidifier in a standard 20C crystallization room (where we mount most of our crystals) be a good idea? Any experiences there? I guess the downside would be that small crystallization drops would be drying more quickly... Best wishes, Sergei Prof. Sergei V. Strelkov Laboratory for Biocrystallography Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, KU Leuven O, Campus Gasthuisberg, Herestraat 49 bus 822, 3000 Leuven, Belgium Phone: +32 16 33 08 45, mobile: +32 486 29 41 32 Lab pages: http://pharm.kuleuven.be/Biocrystallography<http://pharm.kuleuven.be/anafar> From: CCP4 bulletin board on behalf of Frank Von Delft Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 7:03 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms? My colleague Opher Gileadi gave us an excellent tip when we were designing our 4C harvesting room, over a decade ago: set it to 7C. The crystals are unlikely to mind, but it's SO much more comfortable to be in for hours. I seem to remember he mentioned something like a comfort inflection point as you approach 4C. Install low-flow fans. Fridge people seem to default to installing hurricane machines, you have to tell them that a very very small flow is enough. Get strong light - probably even those daylight things (we don't have them). Being cold is miserable enough already, there's no need to compound it with weak light. Vibration - that dwindles to insignificance if the air flow goes down. Humidity - we installed (at considerable expense) a low humidity air supply - really hard to know just how much it helps, but a few years ago when I had it turned it off to help save energy, very quickly I heard complaints about snow in the liquid nitrogen becoming a major hassle. So based on that set of anecdotes, I conclude it probably is worth having dry air. It's much cheaper though if they can design it into the building's infrastructure, if it's a new building; retrofitting turned out to be super expensive (in our case). As dry as possible. Look at and understand the psychrometric chart (google it): if you're in even vaguely warm or temperate regions (or seasons), cooling the intake air to 4C brings it to below dew point, and then condensation and snow are guaranteed. Size - make it as big as you can get away with, with lots of bench and shelf space. Your students will already be miserably cold, no need for them to be cramped too. Good luck! Frank On 24/09/2019 23:40, Scott, Emily wrote: Anyone out there specifically design rooms for (protein) crystallization at ~22 deg and 4 deg C? If you have successes or failures and can share any design specs with regard to vibration, temperature, and humidity tolerances, it would be much appreciated to pass on to the architects for our new laboratory. Sincerely, Emily Scott -- Emily Scott, Ph.D. Professor, Medicinal Chemistry/Pharmacology/Biophysics Faculty Director, BioNMR Core Lab University of Michigan 428 Church Street Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1065 Phone: 734-764-3530 https://pharmacy.umich.edu/people/scottee Lab webpage: http://scottlab.info ** Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be used for urgent or sensitive issues To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
Re: [ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms?
> if you're in even vaguely warm or temperate regions (or seasons), cooling > the intake air to 4C brings it to below dew point, and then condensation > and snow are guaranteed. I once serviced a robot in a 4C room in Singapore, which didn't seem to have any kind of dehumidification - or maybe it had broken down. Water was running feely down the walls and poling on the floor, and the robot was covered in condensation. Every non-stainless screw on the controller, computer, robot etc was rusty. Interestingly, both the robot and the computer still worked. Patrick On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 6:04 AM Frank Von Delft wrote: > My colleague Opher Gileadi gave us an excellent tip when we were designing > our 4C harvesting room, over a decade ago: *set it to 7C*. The crystals > are unlikely to mind, but it's SO much more comfortable to be in for > hours. > > I seem to remember he mentioned something like a comfort inflection point > as you approach 4C. > > *Install low-flow fans*. Fridge people seem to default to installing > hurricane machines, you have to tell them that a very very small flow is > enough. > > *Get strong light* - probably even those daylight things (we don't have > them). Being cold is miserable enough already, there's no need to compound > it with weak light. > > *Vibration* - that dwindles to insignificance if the air flow goes down. > > *Humidity* - we installed (at considerable expense) a low humidity air > supply - really hard to know just how much it helps, but a few years ago > when I had it turned it off to help save energy, very quickly I heard > complaints about snow in the liquid nitrogen becoming a major hassle. So > based on that set of anecdotes, I conclude it probably *is* worth having > dry air. > > It's *much* cheaper though if they can design it into the building's > infrastructure, if it's a new building; retrofitting turned out to be > super expensive (in our case). > > As dry as possible. Look at and understand the psychrometric chart > (google it): if you're in even vaguely warm or temperate regions (or > seasons), cooling the intake air to 4C brings it to below dew point, and > then condensation and snow are guaranteed. > > *Size* - make it as big as you can get away with, with lots of bench and > shelf space. Your students will already be miserably cold, no need for > them to be cramped too. > > Good luck! > Frank > > > > > > On 24/09/2019 23:40, Scott, Emily wrote: > > Anyone out there specifically design rooms for (protein) crystallization > at ~22 deg and 4 deg C? If you have successes or failures and can share > any design specs with regard to vibration, temperature, and humidity > tolerances, it would be much appreciated to pass on to the architects for > our new laboratory. > > > > Sincerely, > > Emily Scott > > > > -- > > Emily Scott, Ph.D. > > Professor, Medicinal Chemistry/Pharmacology/Biophysics > > Faculty Director, BioNMR Core Lab > > University of Michigan > > 428 Church Street > > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1065 > > Phone: 734-764-3530 > > https://pharmacy.umich.edu/people/scottee > > Lab webpage: http://scottlab.info > > > > > > ** > Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not > be used for urgent or sensitive issues > > -- > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 > -- patr...@douglas.co.ukDouglas Instruments Ltd. Douglas House, East Garston, Hungerford, Berkshire, RG17 7HD, UK Directors: Peter Baldock, Patrick Shaw Stewart http://www.douglas.co.uk Tel: 44 (0) 148-864-9090US toll-free 1-877-225-2034 Regd. England 2177994, VAT Reg. GB 480 7371 36 To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
Re: [ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms?
My colleague Opher Gileadi gave us an excellent tip when we were designing our 4C harvesting room, over a decade ago: set it to 7C. The crystals are unlikely to mind, but it's SO much more comfortable to be in for hours. I seem to remember he mentioned something like a comfort inflection point as you approach 4C. Install low-flow fans. Fridge people seem to default to installing hurricane machines, you have to tell them that a very very small flow is enough. Get strong light - probably even those daylight things (we don't have them). Being cold is miserable enough already, there's no need to compound it with weak light. Vibration - that dwindles to insignificance if the air flow goes down. Humidity - we installed (at considerable expense) a low humidity air supply - really hard to know just how much it helps, but a few years ago when I had it turned it off to help save energy, very quickly I heard complaints about snow in the liquid nitrogen becoming a major hassle. So based on that set of anecdotes, I conclude it probably is worth having dry air. It's much cheaper though if they can design it into the building's infrastructure, if it's a new building; retrofitting turned out to be super expensive (in our case). As dry as possible. Look at and understand the psychrometric chart (google it): if you're in even vaguely warm or temperate regions (or seasons), cooling the intake air to 4C brings it to below dew point, and then condensation and snow are guaranteed. Size - make it as big as you can get away with, with lots of bench and shelf space. Your students will already be miserably cold, no need for them to be cramped too. Good luck! Frank On 24/09/2019 23:40, Scott, Emily wrote: Anyone out there specifically design rooms for (protein) crystallization at ~22 deg and 4 deg C? If you have successes or failures and can share any design specs with regard to vibration, temperature, and humidity tolerances, it would be much appreciated to pass on to the architects for our new laboratory. Sincerely, Emily Scott -- Emily Scott, Ph.D. Professor, Medicinal Chemistry/Pharmacology/Biophysics Faculty Director, BioNMR Core Lab University of Michigan 428 Church Street Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1065 Phone: 734-764-3530 https://pharmacy.umich.edu/people/scottee Lab webpage: http://scottlab.info ** Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be used for urgent or sensitive issues To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
[ccp4bb] design specs/tolerances for crystallization rooms?
Anyone out there specifically design rooms for (protein) crystallization at ~22 deg and 4 deg C? If you have successes or failures and can share any design specs with regard to vibration, temperature, and humidity tolerances, it would be much appreciated to pass on to the architects for our new laboratory. Sincerely, Emily Scott -- Emily Scott, Ph.D. Professor, Medicinal Chemistry/Pharmacology/Biophysics Faculty Director, BioNMR Core Lab University of Michigan 428 Church Street Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1065 Phone: 734-764-3530 https://pharmacy.umich.edu/people/scottee Lab webpage: http://scottlab.info ** Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be used for urgent or sensitive issues To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
