Re: Disc Imaging / Kryoflux - Acorn ADFS 800KB

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, Austin Pass wrote:
I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS 3.5" discs. To this end, I've 
purchased a KryoFlux "Pro" board and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be 
working.  However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.
I've created a profile to match the discs I'm reading (256byte sector 
size, tracks 0-79, MFM encoding, interleaved sides).
Recording the flux transitions captures data, but when I run the 
resultant data back through DTC I get the same.

Any ideas?


"everything *seems* to be working"

Have you tried using the drive without the Kryoflex?

Have you confirmed that your kryoflex setup is working with anything 
that it is KNOWN to work with?


I think that Acorn is a "normal" IBM/WD style MFM, but I'm not sure.

So, the first step is to determine whether the Kryoflex is not working 
right, or whether it is a problem with Acorn format.


Therefore, make some .adl files from 720K PC-DOS floppies.
If THAT process fails, then go to the Kryoflex forums with THAT problem, 
since it removes all variable other than your computer, your drive, and 
your Kryoflex.



If that works, then lets look at other potential problems with the Acorn 
compatability with it.
For example, if the Acorn was using a WD controller chip, there is a 
possibility that it started writing soon enough after index that the 
system isn't ready.


Do you know the physical format that your Acorn disks are using?
Can you read sectors from them with stock PC hardware? (INT13h; if sector 
size other than 512 bytes, then INT1Eh also)

What capacity are they?


Do you know for sure that the recording on these disks are intact?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Disc Imaging / Kryoflux - Acorn ADFS 800KB

[Jason T]

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Austin Pass  wrote:
> I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS 3.5" discs. To this end, I've purchased 
> a KryoFlux "Pro" board and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.
>
> I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be 
> working.  However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.

A 0kb file - or one smaller than expected - means that the DTC program
was not able to make sense of some (or in this case, all) of the flux
transitions in terms of the format you selected.  If I don't know what
I'm dealing with, I found it useful to read the disk in "raw" mode
first (where it makes a large file for each track) and then set DTC
against those flux files until I found the right combination of
settings to produce an image.  A lot less wear on the disk and drive
vs. attempting to translate on the fly and failing a lot.  You'll want
to get to know the command line options intimately - the GUI can't do
it all.

Their forums are very useful for sorting out disk format details -
whatever you're reading, there's usually someone who has tried before
and gotten help.  Here's a post on Acorn ADFS:

http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?t=849

(I know nothing of Acorn, so that may not be what you're trying to do.)

All DTC settings matter.  In many cases, the order of the settings
matter, a lot.  I've spent many hours banging my head against the
desk, only to find I had switched to flags around.

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[drlegendre .]

" I do remember
reading that the EHT rectifier diode valves and shunt stabiliser triodes in
early
colour TVs gave off enough Xrays to be dangerous"

This is true. I have here an old HV octal-base tube rectifier that came out
of a color set. The vacuum envelope itself is encased in a second outer
envelope, which seems to be made of something like 3/16" lead. The outer
envelope carries multiple warnings about x-ray emissions, and instructs you
to avoid arcing the anode to the case, or causing any other sort of
mechanical shock or damage as it may reduce the x-ray safety.

Of the countless thousands of tubes I've sorted, this is the only one I've
ever come across.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Toby Thain  wrote:

> On 2016-07-01 4:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for
>>> months or years and the latter is momentary.
>>>
>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, tony duell wrote:
>> I am not convinced that the effect is purely cumulative anyway. In other
>> words,
>> a lower intensity (and lower energy) beam for longer might not do as
>> much damage as a brief pulse from a high intensity, high energy source.
>>
>
>
> Granted. But this is all well studied, we can just look up the numbers and
> the science. Probably something people using unshielded CRTs are best
> motivated to do.
>
> --Toby
>
>
>
>
>
>> The "pro-nuclear" community calls it the "LNT" ("Linear No Threshold")
>> premise.
>>
>> How much of the health damage of early color TV was due, not to the
>> hardware, but to the quality of the content?
>> (USA networks were/are clearly worse than BBC)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

RE: Excessive Bounces

[Jay West]

Rob wrote
-
I keep getting emails from the list server disabling my account for
excessive bounces. Is it possible to get a log showing where the problem is
coming from so I can complain to my ISP?
-

Gone are the days when people "just know" about mailman-owner, etc. :)

Rather than post to the list, I suggest you send an email to the list owner
and they would be happy to go through the logs and see what has occurred. I
bet the logs are pretty big, so it's probably a minor pain to look through,
but I'm sure he'd do it if you asked.

Best,

jw...@classiccmp.org
  

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/01/2016 03:00 PM, TeoZ wrote:
> People junked most of the older small low res slow refresh non
> working (bad caps) non widescreen LCD monitors by now. I kept one I
> got free and fixed ages ago for bench testing (has just a VGA
> connection) since it is easy to move around. Newer gaming video cards
> don't even have VGA out anymore so the older VGA connector monitors
> are of no use. Could also be instead of offering them for sale or
> free people just straight up recycle them because of low demand for
> working ones. On a recycling forum I read people were trying to sell
> working older units for $10 each with no luck. The last 2 LCD
> monitors I purchased new were $100 (Both DELLs a 23" IPS 1080P and a
> 24" 1080P) so pricing is not a problem like it used to be in the 90's
> were a 17" quality monitor was $800.

I'm still a fan of 4:3 aspect monitors.  At least they can get
1200x1600.   Most commodity consumer monitors can only do 1080
vertically.   I don't think I'm ready to spring for a 4K unit yet.

--Chuck

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[couryhouse]

For some things like video  editing  a tube monitor has better color 
gamet..sp?... than chap or enemy middle expensive lcds
Most important to me is this color although for data and juSt to  stretch  time 
line across I use 40 Inch lcd flats  
Good flats  are good but price is very expensive. ...


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: TeoZ  
Date: 7/1/2016  3:00 PM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac 

People junked most of the older small low res slow refresh non working (bad 
caps) non widescreen LCD monitors by now. I kept one I got free and fixed 
ages ago for bench testing (has just a VGA connection) since it is easy to 
move around. Newer gaming video cards don't even have VGA out anymore so the 
older VGA connector monitors are of no use. Could also be instead of 
offering them for sale or free people just straight up recycle them because 
of low demand for working ones. On a recycling forum I read people were 
trying to sell working older units for $10 each with no luck. The last 2 LCD 
monitors I purchased new were $100 (Both DELLs a 23" IPS 1080P and a 24" 
1080P) so pricing is not a problem like it used to be in the 90's were a 17" 
quality monitor was $800.



-Original Message- 
From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2016 3:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

On 07/01/2016 11:48 AM, Toby Thain wrote:

> Or, for free, a dumpster LCD. I find working ones discarded
> regularly, and 90% of the non-working ones are just bad inverter caps
> ($2 worth).


Been there, done that--and even depopulated the inverter section on one
PCB (badly designed--capacitors hot-glued to heatsinks, that sort of
thing) and replaced it with a cheap "universal" CFL inverter.  Still
works fine.

Strangely, I don't see nearly as many junked LCD displays today as I did
5 years ago for some reason.

--Chuck


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[TeoZ]

People junked most of the older small low res slow refresh non working (bad 
caps) non widescreen LCD monitors by now. I kept one I got free and fixed 
ages ago for bench testing (has just a VGA connection) since it is easy to 
move around. Newer gaming video cards don't even have VGA out anymore so the 
older VGA connector monitors are of no use. Could also be instead of 
offering them for sale or free people just straight up recycle them because 
of low demand for working ones. On a recycling forum I read people were 
trying to sell working older units for $10 each with no luck. The last 2 LCD 
monitors I purchased new were $100 (Both DELLs a 23" IPS 1080P and a 24" 
1080P) so pricing is not a problem like it used to be in the 90's were a 17" 
quality monitor was $800.




-Original Message- 
From: Chuck Guzis

Sent: Friday, July 01, 2016 3:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

On 07/01/2016 11:48 AM, Toby Thain wrote:


Or, for free, a dumpster LCD. I find working ones discarded
regularly, and 90% of the non-working ones are just bad inverter caps
($2 worth).



Been there, done that--and even depopulated the inverter section on one
PCB (badly designed--capacitors hot-glued to heatsinks, that sort of
thing) and replaced it with a cheap "universal" CFL inverter.  Still
works fine.

Strangely, I don't see nearly as many junked LCD displays today as I did
5 years ago for some reason.

--Chuck


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

RE: Excessive Bounces

[Rob Jarratt]

> I have found there are two possible causes for excessive bounce,
> 
> a) Worn out shock absorbers.
> 
> b) Badly adjusted high area female support systems
> 


Very helpful

:-) :-)

Re: Excessive Bounces

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/1/2016 5:01 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:



On 01/07/2016 18:10, Rob Jarratt wrote:

I keep getting emails from the list server disabling my account for
excessive bounces. Is it possible to get a log showing where the 
problem is

coming from so I can complain to my ISP?



Thanks



Rob


I have found there are two possible causes for excessive bounce,

   a) Worn out shock absorbers.

   b) Badly adjusted high area female support systems

Rod Smallwood


Too technical an answer for the non-expert.

BTW I have to re-enable my account every 2-3 weeks due to bounces.  I've 
just accepted it, like gravity.


Doug Taylor

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Eric Christopherson]

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> The premise is that some things will NEVER be considered "classic".  EVER.
> Not for historians.  Not for Anthropologists.  Not for archeologists.  Not
> for paleontologists.  There are some machines that the coprolite
> (fossilized feces) collectors will pass up.
>

That's the second time I've seen that term used in the classiccmp realm.
The first was when I came across this company:
https://www.facebook.com/coprolitecomputers/

[...]


OTOH, there were SOME machines that were classic as soon as they existed.
> I think that my collection of OQOs qualifies.
> The iMac is definitely one of those.  If you were to collect everything
> ever available about ADM3a, what machine would you store those files on?
> Imagine a museum collection of the history of the ADM3a; at the end of the
> row is an iMac on which you can view schematics, news articles of its
> introduction, etc.
>

"The files are IN the computer! It's so simple." I'm imagining the museum's
visitors behaving thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2uHBhKTSe0

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Toss your TV - was Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-07-01 4:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for
months or years and the latter is momentary.

...

How much of the health damage of early color TV was due, not to the
hardware, but to the quality of the content?
(USA networks were/are clearly worse than BBC)


The content has only deteriorated since then.

--Toby

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-07-01 4:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for
months or years and the latter is momentary.

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, tony duell wrote:
I am not convinced that the effect is purely cumulative anyway. In other
words,
a lower intensity (and lower energy) beam for longer might not do as
much damage as a brief pulse from a high intensity, high energy source.



Granted. But this is all well studied, we can just look up the numbers 
and the science. Probably something people using unshielded CRTs are 
best motivated to do.


--Toby





The "pro-nuclear" community calls it the "LNT" ("Linear No Threshold")
premise.

How much of the health damage of early color TV was due, not to the
hardware, but to the quality of the content?
(USA networks were/are clearly worse than BBC)

Disc Imaging / Kryoflux - Acorn ADFS 800KB

[Austin Pass]

I'm trying to preserve my Acorn ADFS 3.5" discs. To this end, I've purchased a 
KryoFlux "Pro" board and a new-old-stock ALPS floppy drive.

I've hooked it all up to a Windows 8.1 VM and everything *seems* to be working. 
 However, the .adl images I create are all 0KB in size.

I've created a profile to match the discs I'm reading (256byte sector size, 
tracks 0-79, MFM encoding, interleaved sides).

Recording the flux transitions captures data, but when I run the resultant data 
back through DTC I get the same.

Any ideas?

-Austin.

Sent from my iPad

RE: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Fred Cisin]

Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for
months or years and the latter is momentary.

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, tony duell wrote:
I am not convinced that the effect is purely cumulative anyway. In other words,
a lower intensity (and lower energy) beam for longer might not do as much 
damage as a brief pulse from a high intensity, high energy source.


The "pro-nuclear" community calls it the "LNT" ("Linear No Threshold") 
premise.


How much of the health damage of early color TV was due, not to the 
hardware, but to the quality of the content?

(USA networks were/are clearly worse than BBC)

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
I fully get the distinction between -- for instance -- a classic Ford Mustang 
and a classic Ford Pinto.
Everyone agrees, the Mustangs are classic, but there *are* people who are 
into Pintos.


I knew a family that was into them 30 years ago.
. . . and yet, the purveyors of Concourse D'Elegance welcome the 
Mustang, and turn up their nose at a perfectly restored Pinto.


HERE, the criterion is the subjective "classic", not the objective "age".

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 7/1/2016 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
"I wasn't here for the last XXX number 
of times that that flamewar raged" is 
not an acceptable reason to 
deliberately re-ignite it.


It is an easy, fully objective 
parameter for OLD machines, not for 
"classic" machines, which is subjective.


If you want to create a separate list, 
where that is the criterion, DO SO.

I will be happy to subscribe to it.
I inherited my mother's Win95 
"e-machine", with all the stickers on 
it; who wants it?   I have plenty of 
old machines, many of which are not 
classic.
But age is explicitly NOT part of the 
criteria on THIS list.


That battle has been fought!.


I fully get the distinction between -- 
for instance -- a classic Ford Mustang 
and a classic Ford Pinto.


Everyone agrees, the Mustangs are 
classic, but there *are* people who are 
into Pintos.


- J.

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
Wouldn't have guessed to discuss an iMac here, but rather than picking & 
choosing certain computer models as being appropriate to discuss here or not, 
wouldn't it just be easier (and fairer) to define a certain number of years 
past which it *is* appropriate?Or has this already been stipulated?


"STIPULATED"??!?
Do NOT go there.

Brought up, beaten down, brought up, beaten down.  Over and over.
Like the weeds in the garden.
On this list, the prevalent weed is "the ten year rule".

The premise is that some things will NEVER be considered "classic".  EVER.
Not for historians.  Not for Anthropologists.  Not for archeologists.  Not 
for paleontologists.  There are some machines that the coprolite 
(fossilized feces) collectors will pass up.


Could you tolerate any algorithmic determination of being "classic" that 
would make Windoze XP a classic, or EVER EVER select Windoze7??!?
(admittedly, long ago, there were some that used that argument about all 
PC-DOS machines)



OTOH, there were SOME machines that were classic as soon as they existed.
I think that my collection of OQOs qualifies.
The iMac is definitely one of those.  If you were to collect everything 
ever available about ADM3a, what machine would you store those files on?
Imagine a museum collection of the history of the ADM3a; at the end of the 
row is an iMac on which you can view schematics, news articles of its 
introduction, etc.



Any attempt to implement number of years as a standard will only get an 
admonishment to "get offa my lawn".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
This is why it's just easier to use a single criteria -- age -- and leave it 
at that.   Why is age acceptable everywhere else in collecting, but not here? 
Otherwise, someone (the list owner?) has to pontificate over a list of 
acceptable computers.  Good luck with that.


"I wasn't here for the last XXX number of times that that flamewar raged" 
is not an acceptable reason to deliberately re-ignite it.


It is an easy, fully objective parameter for OLD machines, not for 
"classic" machines, which is subjective.



If you want to create a separate list, where that is the criterion, DO SO.
I will be happy to subscribe to it.
I inherited my mother's Win95 "e-machine", with all the stickers on it; 
who wants it?   I have plenty of old machines, many of which are not 
classic.

But age is explicitly NOT part of the criteria on THIS list.


That battle has been fought!.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 1, 2016, at 3:27 PM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/1/2016 2:03 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 2016-07-01 2:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
>>> That was my thought too- color CRTs are where this really mattered- which
>>> is why I mentioned black and white.
>>> 
>>> I am not overly concerned, someone in the IRC channel I'm in asked and I
>>> thought I'd ping. Even then, in a color CRT without any lead shielding, I'd
>>> bet the emissions pale in comparison to any kind of real medical X-ray.
>> 
>> Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for months or 
>> years and the latter is momentary.
>> 
>> --Toby
> 
> The body can handle very low-level, constant radiation.  This is self-evident 
> as radiation exists pretty much everywhere naturally -- at a very low level.

Self evident except to those weirdos who cling to the "no safe level" myth.  A 
very nice myth if you're a dishonest lawyer -- it pays the bills.

paul

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 7/1/2016 2:03 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

On 2016-07-01 2:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
That was my thought too- color CRTs 
are where this really mattered- which

is why I mentioned black and white.

I am not overly concerned, someone in 
the IRC channel I'm in asked and I
thought I'd ping. Even then, in a 
color CRT without any lead shielding, 
I'd
bet the emissions pale in comparison 
to any kind of real medical X-ray.


Not a very good comparison because one 
is pointed at your head for months or 
years and the latter is momentary.


--Toby


The body can handle very low-level, 
constant radiation.  This is 
self-evident as radiation exists pretty 
much everywhere naturally -- at a very 
low level.


It gets problematic either above a 
certain constand level, or with sudden 
(or instantaneous) higher doses.Dose 
over time matters, but there is 
apparently some cumulative effect as well.


- J.

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/01/2016 11:48 AM, Toby Thain wrote:

> Or, for free, a dumpster LCD. I find working ones discarded
> regularly, and 90% of the non-working ones are just bad inverter caps
> ($2 worth).


Been there, done that--and even depopulated the inverter section on one
PCB (badly designed--capacitors hot-glued to heatsinks, that sort of
thing) and replaced it with a cheap "universal" CFL inverter.  Still
works fine.

Strangely, I don't see nearly as many junked LCD displays today as I did
5 years ago for some reason.

--Chuck

RE: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[tony duell]

> > I am not overly concerned, someone in the IRC channel I'm in asked and I
> > thought I'd ping. Even then, in a color CRT without any lead shielding, I'd
> > bet the emissions pale in comparison to any kind of real medical X-ray.
> 
> Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for
> months or years and the latter is momentary.

I am not convinced that the effect is purely cumulative anyway. In other words,
a lower intensity (and lower energy) beam for longer might not do as much 
damage as a brief pulse from a high intensity, high energy source.

Silly example (using visible light, not X rays), I can look at the output of
a normal red LED for many hours without any eye damage. But shining a
high power laser in my eye for a fraction of a second would blind me.

-tony

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-07-01 2:46 PM, Ian Finder wrote:

That was my thought too- color CRTs are where this really mattered- which
is why I mentioned black and white.

I am not overly concerned, someone in the IRC channel I'm in asked and I
thought I'd ping. Even then, in a color CRT without any lead shielding, I'd
bet the emissions pale in comparison to any kind of real medical X-ray.


Not a very good comparison because one is pointed at your head for 
months or years and the latter is momentary.


--Toby



On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:




On Jul 1, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:

I know a few list members who have been doing this, after fixing CRT
cataracts.

Was that glass additionally leaded to cut down on X-rays at all? Is

there a

risk to that?

These are mostly black and white CRTs.


From what I remember, the concerns about X-rays didn't appear until the
higher acceleration voltages used in color CRTs.  I'm not sure if it's
significant even there, unless you're worried about lawyers rather than
reality.

paul

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Fred Cisin]

Computers don't (yet) have voting
rights. :-)


The hell they don't!
Remember when Hanging Chad htrew the deciding vote?

Actually we want this Packard Bell http://www.smecc.org/itemsklkljl; _3.jpg

[COURYHOUSE]

 
Actually we want this Packard Bell  http://www.smecc.org/itemsklkljl;_3.jpg 
  for the  computer  display at  SMECC!

Also want any promo material, artwork, manuals etc etc etc
 
drop me a line offlist  with a title of  SMECC Packard Bell  please
to _couryhouse@aol.com_ (mailto:couryho...@aol.com) 
 
thisis  what we are looking  for
http://www.smecc.org/itemsklkljl;_3.jpg

 
 
In a message dated 7/1/2016 10:49:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@cimmeri.com writes:


Computers don't (yet) have voting 
rights. :-)

But  you're defining "spirit" and listing 
criteria by which a machine is  
appropriate or not.   A PS/2 with an 
80386 running Windows  3.1 is acceptable, 
whereas a Packard Bell with an 80386 
running  Windows 3.1 is not.Yeah, you 
and I would cringe at a PB  being 
discussed, but maybe there's someone out 
there who really is  fond of their PB.

So as Terry ("Tezza") acknowledges, 
terms like  "landmark," "classic," 
"collectible" are subjective (but I 
don't think  "vintage" is subjective -- 
that term is usually set by age  alone).

This is why it's just easier to use a 
single criteria --  age -- and leave it 
at that.   Why is age acceptable  
everywhere else in collecting, but not 
here?  Otherwise, someone (the list 
owner?) has to pontificate over a list 
of  acceptable computers.  Good luck with 
that.

-  J.

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[COURYHOUSE]

Actually we want this Packard Bell  http://www.smecc.org/itemsklkljl;_3.jpg 
  for the  computer  display at  SMECC!

Also want any promo material, artwork, manuals etc etc etc
 
drop me a line offlist  with a title of  SMECC Packard Bell  please
to _couryhouse@aol.com_ (mailto:couryho...@aol.com) 
 
thisis  what we are looking  for
http://www.smecc.org/itemsklkljl;_3.jpg
 
 
In a message dated 7/1/2016 10:49:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@cimmeri.com writes:


Computers don't (yet) have voting 
rights. :-)

But  you're defining "spirit" and listing 
criteria by which a machine is  
appropriate or not.   A PS/2 with an 
80386 running Windows  3.1 is acceptable, 
whereas a Packard Bell with an 80386 
running  Windows 3.1 is not.Yeah, you 
and I would cringe at a PB  being 
discussed, but maybe there's someone out 
there who really is  fond of their PB.

So as Terry ("Tezza") acknowledges, 
terms like  "landmark," "classic," 
"collectible" are subjective (but I 
don't think  "vintage" is subjective -- 
that term is usually set by age  alone).

This is why it's just easier to use a 
single criteria --  age -- and leave it 
at that.   Why is age acceptable  
everywhere else in collecting, but not 
here?  Otherwise, someone (the list 
owner?) has to pontificate over a list 
of  acceptable computers.  Good luck with 
that.

-  J.

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On Jul 1, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> We're entering another interesting period of time.  For those who want a
> desktop PC to read email and surf the web, the display could well turn
> out to be the most expensive component by far.

Interestingly, the RPi could result in the resurrection of the X Terminal :-)

At work I have a monster desktop that basically serves as just that.  With the 
RPi3 it's now practical to use it to drive the display, letting me turn the 
desktop beast into a VM host.  VM host in the kvm/qemu sense, although I do 
plan to have it host a VM/370 instance, just to annoy the kiddies at work :-)

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-07-01 2:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote:



On Jul 1, 2016, at 2:33 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

On 07/01/2016 11:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote:


As I understand it, the Raspberry Pi is not that far off (and before
it, the ZX Spectrum). But then, there are half a dozen models of
Raspberry Pi, even excluding the Pi Zero.


...and numerous clones.   This email is being run through a server
running Ubuntu on a headless Orange Pi PC.  At $15, I'll probably buy a
few more.

We're entering another interesting period of time.  For those who want a
desktop PC to read email and surf the web, the display could well turn
out to be the most expensive component by far.


Of course, if your needs are basic, an old CRT for a few dollars will serve 
just fine.



Or, for free, a dumpster LCD. I find working ones discarded regularly, 
and 90% of the non-working ones are just bad inverter caps ($2 worth).


--Toby



paul

RE: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[tony duell]

> I know a few list members who have been doing this, after fixing CRT
> cataracts.
> 
> Was that glass additionally leaded to cut down on X-rays at all? Is there a
> risk to that?

It probably was leaded glass, but mono CRTs only run at about 15kV on the
final anode. I don't think you get much of an X ray risk from that. 

The older TV CRTs (at least in the UK) had a separate implosion guard that
was either a sheet of laminated glass, or later on a tough plastic sheet or 
'bowl'. I don't think those (particularly the latter) would be much of an X ray
shield, nor do I ever remember seeing warning about X ray hazards when
repairing such sets (which might involve running the CRT out of the cabinet,
and thus without the shield in place.

Colour CRTs might be a different matter. AFAIK all the ones used in the 
UK TVs had integral implosion protection so there was never any suggestion
that they could be run without that. And they run at 25kV EHT. I do remember
reading that the EHT rectifier diode valves and shunt stabiliser triodes in 
early
colour TVs gave off enough Xrays to be dangerous, I never saw similar
warnings about the rectifier valves in monochrome TVs. 

-tony

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Ian Finder]

That was my thought too- color CRTs are where this really mattered- which
is why I mentioned black and white.

I am not overly concerned, someone in the IRC channel I'm in asked and I
thought I'd ping. Even then, in a color CRT without any lead shielding, I'd
bet the emissions pale in comparison to any kind of real medical X-ray.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
> > On Jul 1, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> >
> > I know a few list members who have been doing this, after fixing CRT
> > cataracts.
> >
> > Was that glass additionally leaded to cut down on X-rays at all? Is
> there a
> > risk to that?
> >
> > These are mostly black and white CRTs.
>
> From what I remember, the concerns about X-rays didn't appear until the
> higher acceleration voltages used in color CRTs.  I'm not sure if it's
> significant even there, unless you're worried about lawyers rather than
> reality.
>
> paul
>
>
>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 1, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> 
> I know a few list members who have been doing this, after fixing CRT
> cataracts.
> 
> Was that glass additionally leaded to cut down on X-rays at all? Is there a
> risk to that?
> 
> These are mostly black and white CRTs.

From what I remember, the concerns about X-rays didn't appear until the higher 
acceleration voltages used in color CRTs.  I'm not sure if it's significant 
even there, unless you're worried about lawyers rather than reality.

paul

Running CRTs without implosion protection glass

[Ian Finder]

I know a few list members who have been doing this, after fixing CRT
cataracts.

Was that glass additionally leaded to cut down on X-rays at all? Is there a
risk to that?

These are mostly black and white CRTs.

-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 1, 2016, at 2:33 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 07/01/2016 11:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> 
>> As I understand it, the Raspberry Pi is not that far off (and before 
>> it, the ZX Spectrum). But then, there are half a dozen models of 
>> Raspberry Pi, even excluding the Pi Zero.
> 
> ...and numerous clones.   This email is being run through a server
> running Ubuntu on a headless Orange Pi PC.  At $15, I'll probably buy a
> few more.
> 
> We're entering another interesting period of time.  For those who want a
> desktop PC to read email and surf the web, the display could well turn
> out to be the most expensive component by far.

Of course, if your needs are basic, an old CRT for a few dollars will serve 
just fine.

paul

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/01/2016 11:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> As I understand it, the Raspberry Pi is not that far off (and before 
> it, the ZX Spectrum). But then, there are half a dozen models of 
> Raspberry Pi, even excluding the Pi Zero.

...and numerous clones.   This email is being run through a server
running Ubuntu on a headless Orange Pi PC.  At $15, I'll probably buy a
few more.

We're entering another interesting period of time.  For those who want a
desktop PC to read email and surf the web, the display could well turn
out to be the most expensive component by far.

--Chuck

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[william degnan]

>
> 
> Unfortunately, I think we'll have to come to grips with the realization
> that
> in 50 years, beige box and other sorts of (soulless) commodity PCs will be
> primarily what survive amongst retro enthusiasts.
>
>
>
There are vintage early WWW era intel machines that are historic if not
vintage, yet.  I can think of a few "holy grails" to go after that were
very hi-end then and are getting harder to find now.  There are some real
classics in there that are very desirable to preserve not many made.  The
trick is to know what to be on the look out for *now* when no one else
cares...Some of us may remember getting IBM PCs for $2 at flea markets...

Another thing to do now, grab the high-end gound-breaking controller cards
and recycle the beige box and generic stuff.

B

Re: what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Liam Proven]

On 1 July 2016 at 20:00, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:
> It can't be numbers sold, either, because virtually everyone agrees the
> Commodore 64 qualifies as appropriate and that machine was the greatest
> single selling model of computer of all time.


As I understand it, the Raspberry Pi is not that far off (and before
it, the ZX Spectrum). But then, there are half a dozen models of
Raspberry Pi, even excluding the Pi Zero.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

what's vintage? was Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Cameron Kaiser]

> Computers don't (yet) have voting 
> rights. :-)
> 
> But you're defining "spirit" and listing 
> criteria by which a machine is 
> appropriate or not.   A PS/2 with an 
> 80386 running Windows 3.1 is acceptable, 
> whereas a Packard Bell with an 80386 
> running Windows 3.1 is not.Yeah, you 
> and I would cringe at a PB being 
> discussed, but maybe there's someone out 
> there who really is fond of their PB.
> 
> So as Terry ("Tezza") acknowledges, 
> terms like "landmark," "classic," 
> "collectible" are subjective (but I 
> don't think "vintage" is subjective -- 
> that term is usually set by age alone).
> 
> This is why it's just easier to use a 
> single criteria -- age -- and leave it 
> at that.   Why is age acceptable 
> everywhere else in collecting, but not 
> here? Otherwise, someone (the list 
> owner?) has to pontificate over a list 
> of acceptable computers.  Good luck with 
> that.

I think we ended up going in knots before with what essentially boiled down
to, "anything above a certain age that's not a beige box PC qualifies." Then
the problem became one of definining what a commodity PC was. Will old Intel
Macs qualify? (I'd say so, but I'm a Power Mac bigot.)

It can't be numbers sold, either, because virtually everyone agrees the
Commodore 64 qualifies as appropriate and that machine was the greatest
single selling model of computer of all time.

Unfortunately, I think we'll have to come to grips with the realization that
in 50 years, beige box and other sorts of (soulless) commodity PCs will be
primarily what survive amongst retro enthusiasts.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Atheism is a non-prophet organization. -

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Liam Proven]

On 1 July 2016 at 03:09, Terry Stewart  wrote:
> My classic/vintage computer activity has taken a back seat lately but I did
> find a machine I had on the "classic" list for some time.  It's now part of
> the collection.
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/imac.htm


Totally an interesting, valid machine.

The first-gen iMacs are very limited. However, with major surgery, you
can put quite a lot of RAM in them -- 384MB I think -- and a random
big EIDE hard disk. In that config, they will run MacOS X up to 10.3,
I think.

I find it useful to have G3-era Macs dual-boot, because OS X can talk
to a modern network, read USB mass storage etc., without significant
problems, whereas MacOS 9 struggles.

But -- very important note! It's *ESSENTIAL* to upgrade their firmware
before ever attempting to boot OS X on them even once. Not install,
_boot_. If you don't, OS X resets the screen brightness to minimum --
1% or so -- and it's very hard to get out of that state. You then need
to boot MacOS 9 "blind" and install the firmware update without being
able to see what you're doing.

I've done it. It's tricky but it is possible. I suspect a lot of iMacs
got trashed as "dead" in that condition, though.

But upgrade the firmware first and they run old editions of OS X fine,
and are rather more useful running it and TenFourFox or something,
than they are with Classic only.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Liam Proven]

On 1 July 2016 at 18:48, Ian Finder  wrote:
>
> Likewise there are Packard Bell X86 older than that iMac, that would
> qualify by most age limits I'd expect to be imposed, but that I'd cringe at
> seeing discussed here.


This is one of the things I find a little odd about the Facebook
Vintage Computers group. The kids get all excited about random beige
boxes. Cheap nasty generic clones are prized if they have the original
stickers, and they often want help doing very simple stuff like
attaching CD-ROM drives.

I mean, C64 or something, OK -- they sold in the millions, were never
very exciting or interesting _to me_ with their rotten BASIC and
dead-slow tapes and disks... but I 100% appreciate the nostalgia.

But a generic clone 486 or something? Yet people collect them. There's
one guy who just collects bare CPUs. Dozens, hundreds of x86
processors.

Mystifying. But then, I guess to them, what's the point in a 30y old
Unix box that can't play any game more exciting than Nethack?

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 7/1/2016 11:48 AM, Ian Finder wrote:

The original iMac is old enough to vote... And besides, I don't think
drawing a chronological line in the sand is necessarily sensible.

Just don't violate the spirit of classic computing? (A G5 tower that you
run Linux on is not classic computing, for instance)

Likewise there are Packard Bell X86 older than that iMac, that would
qualify by most age limits I'd expect to be imposed, but that I'd cringe at
seeing discussed here.

If you post your Mattel HotWheels PC here, it might be worth getting
irritated. But there is no upgrade path from classic MacOS, and it's not
X86, so I'd say it has far more of a place here than the constant 30+
message modern-OS RANT threads I'm constantly subjected to on here.

- Ian


Computers don't (yet) have voting 
rights. :-)


But you're defining "spirit" and listing 
criteria by which a machine is 
appropriate or not.   A PS/2 with an 
80386 running Windows 3.1 is acceptable, 
whereas a Packard Bell with an 80386 
running Windows 3.1 is not.Yeah, you 
and I would cringe at a PB being 
discussed, but maybe there's someone out 
there who really is fond of their PB.


So as Terry ("Tezza") acknowledges, 
terms like "landmark," "classic," 
"collectible" are subjective (but I 
don't think "vintage" is subjective -- 
that term is usually set by age alone).


This is why it's just easier to use a 
single criteria -- age -- and leave it 
at that.   Why is age acceptable 
everywhere else in collecting, but not 
here? Otherwise, someone (the list 
owner?) has to pontificate over a list 
of acceptable computers.  Good luck with 
that.


- J.

Excessive Bounces

[Rob Jarratt]

I keep getting emails from the list server disabling my account for
excessive bounces. Is it possible to get a log showing where the problem is
coming from so I can complain to my ISP?

 

Thanks

 

Rob

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Ian Finder]

The original iMac is old enough to vote... And besides, I don't think
drawing a chronological line in the sand is necessarily sensible.

Just don't violate the spirit of classic computing? (A G5 tower that you
run Linux on is not classic computing, for instance)

Likewise there are Packard Bell X86 older than that iMac, that would
qualify by most age limits I'd expect to be imposed, but that I'd cringe at
seeing discussed here.

If you post your Mattel HotWheels PC here, it might be worth getting
irritated. But there is no upgrade path from classic MacOS, and it's not
X86, so I'd say it has far more of a place here than the constant 30+
message modern-OS RANT threads I'm constantly subjected to on here.

- Ian



On Friday, July 1, 2016, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:

> > >> Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so
> > >> shouldn't be discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms
> which
> > >> can be (and are!) argued about at length.
> >
> > Wouldn't have guessed to discuss an iMac
> > here, but rather than picking & choosing
> > certain computer models as being
> > appropriate to discuss here or not,
> > wouldn't it just be easier (and fairer)
> > to define a certain number of years past
> > which it *is* appropriate?Or has
> > this already been stipulated?
>
> I don't think anything ever came of this any of the other myriad of times
> it was brought up.
>
> But that said, it's a landmark system (I'm typing this on a 1GHz iMac G4,
> which is also a design landmark), it runs a now-unusual desktop
> architecture,
> it uses an obsolete operating system (as well as OS X) and it's long past
> being obsoleted by its manufacturer.
>
> --
>  personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckai...@floodgap.com 
> -- Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. -L.
> Nimoy -
>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Cameron Kaiser]

> >> Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so
> >> shouldn't be discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms which
> >> can be (and are!) argued about at length.
> 
> Wouldn't have guessed to discuss an iMac 
> here, but rather than picking & choosing 
> certain computer models as being 
> appropriate to discuss here or not, 
> wouldn't it just be easier (and fairer) 
> to define a certain number of years past 
> which it *is* appropriate?Or has 
> this already been stipulated?

I don't think anything ever came of this any of the other myriad of times
it was brought up.

But that said, it's a landmark system (I'm typing this on a 1GHz iMac G4,
which is also a design landmark), it runs a now-unusual desktop architecture,
it uses an obsolete operating system (as well as OS X) and it's long past
being obsoleted by its manufacturer.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. -L. Nimoy -

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 7/1/2016 9:00 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Terry Stewart  wrote:


Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so
shouldn't be discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms which
can be (and are!) argued about at length.



Wouldn't have guessed to discuss an iMac 
here, but rather than picking & choosing 
certain computer models as being 
appropriate to discuss here or not, 
wouldn't it just be easier (and fairer) 
to define a certain number of years past 
which it *is* appropriate?Or has 
this already been stipulated?


By way of comparison, in my state 
(Maryland), any car over 20 years is 
considered "historic" as long as it's 
pretty much a stock vehicle, or "street 
rod" for cars over 25 that have been 
substantially modified.Most cars 
I've seen with historic plates obviously 
qualify for the rank, but some are 
pretty laughable -- old junkers clearly 
just tagged as such to avoid inspection 
requirements.


- J.

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Ethan Dicks]

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Jay West  wrote:
> Terry wrote...
>> Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so
>> shouldn't be discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms
>> which can be (and are!) argued about at length.
>
> To which Ethan replied:
> 
> I would say that it is.  It's an iconic machine that runs a 
> no-longer-mainstream {OS?} and does represent an inflection point in Apple's 
> long history.
> 
> Exactly. Agreed. Very well put.

Yes.  OS.  Thanks for catching that.  Seems that several characters
got dropped from that post (should say "It also encompasses..."

-ethan

RE: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Jay West]

Terry wrote...
> Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so 
> shouldn't be discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms 
> which can be (and are!) argued about at length.

To which Ethan replied:

I would say that it is.  It's an iconic machine that runs a 
no-longer-mainstream {OS?} and does represent an inflection point in Apple's 
long history.

Exactly. Agreed. Very well put.

J

Re: AIX from Motorola

[Michael-John Turner]

On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 02:19:54PM +0300, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> Anyone have Motorola based AIX installation cds at least 4.1.4r4 or newer?

Did you manage to find a copy? If not, I _think_ I have a copy somewhere so
can take a look.

I assume this is for a PowerStack?

Cheers, MJ
-- 
Michael-John Turner * m...@mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Terry Stewart  wrote:
> My classic/vintage computer activity has taken a back seat lately but I did
> find a machine I had on the "classic" list for some time.  It's now part of
> the collection.
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/imac.htm

Cool.

> Some would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so
> shouldn't be discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms which
> can be (and are!) argued about at length.

I would say that it is.  It's an iconic machine that runs a
no-longer-mainstream and does represent an inflection point in Apple's
long history.

> To me it's a noteworthy model which had some impact on personal computing
> (notably by helping put Apple back in the game).

Exactly.

>  Vintage?  At only 18
> years old perhaps not but a classic and collectible?  As time goes by I
> would say yes.

I also encompasses some interest design elements - the shift to color
definitely stands out, as does that terrible mouse.

I happen to have one myself.  I should dust it off and fire it up and
check what OS is on the disk.

-ethan

Re: FOCAL-65 for the 6502?

[william degnan]

>
>
> >
>
> I seem to remember an OSI version/docs.  I may have the docs for this if
> anyone wants me to investigate...
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> -
>
> I'm interested, Bill.  Thank you for checking.
> -
>
>

So far, I have not found it.  I have a lot of unlabeled notebooks to browse
through

Who is using an Dolch (DLI) Logic Analyzer?

[Holm Tiffe]

Hi all,

I've got an Dolch C100D Analyzer with an bunch of Probes lately,
And I'm lookinffor someone that has an Dolch LA with an Disassembler
Option - ROM installed and is able to read out it's contents.
I Do habe an C100D analyzer, got it w/o any documentation but the
LAM3250 docs available at the uni Stuttgart fits alsmost exactly.

It seems, that most of the Dolch LAs are internal powered from a Z80 so
it is'nt unlikely that the Options will fit in different models.

I'll get two Dolch 64300 tomorrow, one for repair..disassemblers
included, but the 64300 has ROM cassettes for plugin.

Kind Regards,

Holm
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: Latest addition: A bondi-blue iMac

[COURYHOUSE]

yes  smecc saved one... I do not  see a lot of them around  anymore
 
 
In a message dated 6/30/2016 6:40:37 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
te...@webweavers.co.nz writes:

My  classic/vintage computer activity has taken a back seat lately but I  
did
find a machine I had on the "classic" list for some time.  It's  now part of
the  collection.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/imac.htm

Some  would say this is not vintage, classic or collectible (and so
shouldn't be  discussed here).  However, these are all subjected terms which
can be  (and are!) argued about at length.

To me it's a noteworthy model which  had some impact on personal computing
(notably by helping put Apple back in  the game).  Vintage?  At only 18
years old perhaps not but a  classic and collectible?  As time goes by I
would say  yes.

Terry (Tez)