Re: bitsavers FP11-B schem: M8115-0-01 sheets 1 and 2 missing?
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 10:55 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 9/10/2016 10:09 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > >> Does anybody have a complete set of FP11-B drawings? > > I have scanned in my (complete) copy. It is available in > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU Awesome — thank you very much! —FritzM.
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Vincent Slyngstad: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:00 PM > >> Poof! There goes the prior value of link! And the "0" in the comment is >> correct. >> > > Never mind. I finally see what Klemens and others were trying to tell me > about the need for CLL. > >Vince > > My first test case would fail without the CLL BSW=JMS I BSWIND *0170 C7700, 7700 BSWIND, BSWI *0200 CLA CLL CML/CLEAR AC AND SET LINK TAD C7700/ AC <- 7700 BSW /AFTER THIS AC SHOULD BE 0077 HLT/LOOK AT THE PRETTY LIGHTS BSWI, .-. I believe this returns 0037 instead of 0077 if the CLL is left out of the code, but I believe you figured this out. I've been trying to come up with a way to reorder this but without success. I am going to have Warren look at it as he has a twisted mind and sometimes sees things I miss. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175
PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8)
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Thanks for an interesting bit of optimization! Need some more optimization fun? :) Vince and I were working on some code to add two signed 12 bit numbers and detect overflow, returning MAX_INT or MIN_INT in AC in the case of overflow, or the sum in AC otherwise. Here's what Vince came up with so far: CHKOVF, 0 TAD OVFA /GET A TAD OVFB /ADD B DCA OVFSUM /SAVE IT TAD OVFA /A XOR B AND OVFB CMA IAC TAD OVFA TAD OVFB SPA CLA /IF SIGNS DIFFER... JMP NOPROB /WE'RE DONE TAD OVFA /MIGHT BE OVERFLOW, A XOR SUM AND OVFSUM CMA IAC TAD OVFA TAD OVFSUM SMA /DID WE OVERFLOW (DIFFERENT SIGNS)? JMP NOPROB /NO, NO PROBLEM CLA CLL CMA RAR /YES, AC=3777 (MAX INT) DCA OVFSUM /SAVE IT TAD OVFA /GET THE SIGN OF CORRECT RESULT SPA CLA /SHOULD IT BE NEGATIVE? ISZ OVFSUM /YES, 3777 -> 4000 (MIN INT) NOPROB, CLA /GET CORRECTED SUM TAD OVFSUM JMP I CHKOVF /OUTTA HERE OVFA, 0 OVFB, 0 OVFSUM, 0 This tests the signs of both numbers; if they differ, there's no chance of overflow. If they're the same, it checks the signs of the augend with the sum; if they differ, an overflow occurred, and MAX_INT or MIN_INT will be returned depending on the sign of the augend. We tried clever tricks previously, using SNL/SZL and SMA/SPA after shifting the sign of the augend into the link and keeping the addend in the AC, but found these to be longer. Kyle
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
From: Vincent Slyngstad: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:00 PM Poof! There goes the prior value of link! And the "0" in the comment is correct. Never mind. I finally see what Klemens and others were trying to tell me about the need for CLL. Vince
Re: FDN303 datasheet
On 09/13/2016 06:01 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I could probably kludge the oval eject button and whatever else > needed to make another drive fit, but I wanted to play around with > modding other drives for 8" emulation anyway while I was at it. > > I think I may have enough to make them work, but thanks for returning > the tip ;-) Well, I probably have one of the NEC drives in my stash, so if you get stuck, I'll willing to put my own drive under the soldering iron. Most of the NEC drives that I've seen are capable of 3-mode operation, however they try to hide it. Same for most Teac high-density drives. --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 04:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Did CP/M-86 have networking? I remember it being an expensive, fiddly > add-on for CDOS years later, and not very flexible then. I don't think > the UCSD p-System networked at all, and DOS didn't for a long time. > Only after the advent of WfWg did MS offer a free network stack for > DOS as standard, and even to this day it's not wildly enthusiastic > about TCP/IP, although it will do it. If you used Novell Netware Lite > or P2P Netware, you got IPX; Pathworks, DECnet; Farallon, AppleTalk; > etc. > CP/Net. I don't know if Novell ever deployed their RS-422 networking with CP/M-86 however. There were networking packages for the PC early on. Remember Banyan? They date from 1985. Corvus? Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability. Networking, however disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987. --Chuck
Re: FDN303 datasheet
- Original Message - From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:51 PM Subject: Re: FDN303 datasheet > On 09/13/2016 04:10 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> As a matter of fact I am playing with some NEC FD1231T's, trying to >> modify them for 8" emulation (1.2MB mode); I had read some of the >> Amiga mod articles and they were a little help although they don't >> address the speed issue and the DC on pin 2 mod doesn't apply. > > Save yourself some aggravation and just pick up some Samsung SFD-321B > drives--common as dirt, particularly if you're not fussy about the > bezel. Easily modified for 360RPM operation--and even has READY as > well as DISK CHANGED outputs. > > --Chuck === Yeah Chuck, that Samsung is definitely one of the easiest to mod for 8" emulation and documentation is actually available; as a matter of fact I think I'm the one who first suggested it to you when you were looking some long time ago since some of us Cromemco users had been using them for a while. But the bezel layout is a little critical here; the drives have to fit into slimline 1 1/8" x 5 7/8" 5.25" drive bays/adapters like Compaq used in some of their servers and portables (although they're actually going into a Commodore PET), and the NECs are indeed out of a couple of Compaq servers. I could probably kludge the oval eject button and whatever else needed to make another drive fit, but I wanted to play around with modding other drives for 8" emulation anyway while I was at it. I think I may have enough to make them work, but thanks for returning the tip ;-) m
Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))
- Original Message - From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) > > > On 9/13/16 4:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do >> you want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but >> I guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway.. >> >> They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but >> with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core >> between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-) >> > > documenting, dumping firmware and taking pictures of the innards would be > great! > > I now have most of the HP 264x series dumped. > == As a matter of fact I think one of them in fact emulates an HP 264-something-or-other. Some models were also used in some DEC shops as cheap VT100 and VT220 clones. Don't hold your breath, but it's on the list... m
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
From: Doug Ingraham: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:38 PM This struck me as a pretty clever bit of code. My first cut used 23 words including 2 masks and 3 temporaries. Thanks!! This is the working version of Vince's original. It uses 18 words including 1 mask and 2 temporaries. I have done some edge testing and it appears to work. 30 / THIS VERSION BY VINCE SLYNGSTAD 31 00210 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 32 00211 3175 DCA SAVEAC 33 00212 7420 SNL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 34 00213 7040 CMA /AS A -1 FOR ISZ TEST 35 00214 3176 DCA SAVEL 36 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED Ok, I just don't see why one should need to clear link here. 37 00216 1175 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 38 00217 0177 AND C7700 /0 XXX XXX 000 000 These two lines, the comment would have "L" instead of their first "0". 39 00220 1175 TAD SAVEAC /X XXX XX0 YYY YYY Poof! There goes the prior value of link! And the "0" in the comment is correct. 40 00221 7006 RTL /X XXX 0YY YYY YXX 41 00222 7006 RTL /X X0Y YYY YYX XXX 42 00223 7006 RTL /0 YYY YYY XXX XXX 43 00224 2176 ISZ SAVEL /WAS LINK SET? 44 00225 7020 CML /YES, RESTORE LINK 45 00226 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN 46 $ As Klemens Krause points out you do need the CLL (line 36) somewhere before the second TAD SAVEAC or it will flip what was the original leftmost bit (AC 0). Someone help me understand this claim. I have thought about this a bunch and have come up with an improved version. It also uses 18 words including 2 constants two temporaries. This is one less instruction executed. 32 00210 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 33 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC 34 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 35 00213 1177 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION 36 00214 3175 DCA SAVEL 37 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 38 00216 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 39 00217 0176 AND C7700 /0 XXX XXX 000 000 40 00220 1174 TAD SAVEAC /X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 41 00221 1175 TAD SAVEL /X XXX XXL YYY YYY 42 00222 7006 RTL /X XXX LYY YYY YXX 43 00223 7006 RTL /X XLY YYY YYX XXX 44 00224 7006 RTL /L YYY YYY XXX XXX 45 00225 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN Not bad but I realized even more was possible. 31 00210 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 32 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC 33 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 34 00213 1176 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION 35 00214 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 36 00215 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 37 00216 0175 AND C7700 /0 XXX XXX 000 000 38 00217 1174 TAD SAVEAC /X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 39 00220 7006 RTL /X XXX LYY YYY YXX 40 00221 7006 RTL /X XLY YYY YYX XXX 41 00222 7006 RTL /L YYY YYY XXX XXX 42 00223 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN Nice! Vince
Re: FDN303 datasheet
On 09/13/2016 04:10 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > As a matter of fact I am playing with some NEC FD1231T's, trying to > modify them for 8" emulation (1.2MB mode); I had read some of the > Amiga mod articles and they were a little help although they don't > address the speed issue and the DC on pin 2 mod doesn't apply. Save yourself some aggravation and just pick up some Samsung SFD-321B drives--common as dirt, particularly if you're not fussy about the bezel. Easily modified for 360RPM operation--and even has READY as well as DISK CHANGED outputs. --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 20:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/13/2016 11:12 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here? > > As I said, Mac OS 9.2. I'm not interested for my G3 to talk to other > Macs--the only other one here is a Performa 6100 running OS 7.mumble. Ah, I guess I missed that earlier. Sorry. > But isn't that typical of the Apple Way? What I was getting at is that it was typical of _everyone's_ way back in the '80s. Everyone who did a full-stack OS had their own network stack and their own protocol, and it was supported far better than anything else. > Right from the start, there > were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world. But it had a whole choice of OSes and most of them didn't include networking at all in the early days, AFAIK. IBM's big iron networking wouldn't have fitted into the RAM of the original PC. Did CP/M-86 have networking? I remember it being an expensive, fiddly add-on for CDOS years later, and not very flexible then. I don't think the UCSD p-System networked at all, and DOS didn't for a long time. Only after the advent of WfWg did MS offer a free network stack for DOS as standard, and even to this day it's not wildly enthusiastic about TCP/IP, although it will do it. If you used Novell Netware Lite or P2P Netware, you got IPX; Pathworks, DECnet; Farallon, AppleTalk; etc. All, as I said, intended to talk to some other proprietary system. Openness? No, we haven't even heard of it. > Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the > announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac? As others have said -- yes, it existed, albeit from 3rd party tools. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 14 September 2016 at 00:48, Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare) wrote: > I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install. I didn't know about that. It does surprise me. Stupid question: it's not called ``perl5'' or something now, as Perl 6 is *finally* out? > The rather temperamental behaviour of anaconda when working with > kickstart files is ... unsatisfying. Never tried that. > So is the behaviour when doing interactive installs against a virtual > machine (vmware server as host), temperamental to say the least. The > trouble was with the geometry of the screen and the selected graphical > chip. I have found CentOS a PITA in VMware, I can concur there. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))
On 9/13/16 4:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you > want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I > guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway.. > > They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but > with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core > between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-) > documenting, dumping firmware and taking pictures of the innards would be great! I now have most of the HP 264x series dumped.
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Klemens Krause < kra...@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > > First PAL8 complained about "IFNZER". PAL8 wants "IFNZRO"! > After changing this, assambly was successfull, and I could start the > program on the straight-8. All seemed to be ok, with the exception, > that sine (keyboard I) and roll (keyboard L) do not work with your > new version. These keys are just ignored. > Same behaviour on my 8/E, no difference to the straight-8. > Huh, palbart understands both IFNZER and IFNZRO, so I'll fix it to use the latter. The keys were updated for the HP-35 and HP-45 to be more intuitive for the commonly-used functions, 'S' and 'R' are now sine and roll, which were formerly store and recall. Store and recall are now '<' and '>', respectively. Look in the code for the key lookup table; I have an ASCII table of keys arranged in the HP-35/45 keyboard pattern. Both the HP-35 only and HP-35/45 versions use the same keyboard code. Another issue: your BSWSUB has still the bug, that > DCA BSWTMP > SNL > CMA > DCA BSWLNK > CLL / THIS MUST BE! > > the CLL is missing. Without this, the bit 0 on entry of this routine > is inverted, when the link is set on entry. > Remember, the link is not a carry! > Hmm. Sounds like I need some more complicated test vectors! Either that or the link is never set prior to entry, which I doubt. I'll look at adding Doug's new code to the mix. Nice work, Doug! Next question: my hp35 has 36 keys. The 36th key is not accessible > for normal users. It's hidden below the "ENTER" key. What does this > key do? If I remember right, it's a kind of debug-key. I believe it > shifts the whole register including exponent and signs digit by digit > to the left. Sounds like Eric has answered your question, but no, this simulator doesn't support the extra button without changing one line of code; I can add that as an option if interested for the HP-45 portion, but I'd think the stopwatch mode serves zero purpose on this simulator, as it would never run anywhere close to the accurate time anyways. Kyle
Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))
- Original Message - From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:34 PM Subject: Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) > > > On 9/13/16 9:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX >> keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. > > True enough. I have even bought some switches and non so great Cherry > keyboards to harvest keytops. > About 10 WY-30 keyboards in so-so condition showed up for about $7 ea, so > i'll probably just go with > that, since they seem to be the least desirable (next to WY-50) for the > mechanical collectors. > > Televideo was pretty consistent with their serial keyboard protocol and > voltages, Qume.. not at all. > I've identified at least 4 different styles of 4-pin connector keyboards > using either 12 or 5 volt power. > > Then, there is ADDS, Hazeltine, Microterm, DG, Freedom, ... > === How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway.. They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-) m
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 03:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Like you said, a lot of sunk costs for very few sales. Around 1984, we leased a VAX 11/750 running BSD with the understanding from the lessor that the desired configuration was to support HASP via a Bell 209 modem and leased-line. We got the leased line, the modem connected fine, but the promised BSD software didn't work. Berkeley Systems was called in and they couldn't get it to work either. Eventually, I think we just hooked up a 5160 with the necessary support. --Chuck
Re: FDN303 datasheet
- Original Message - From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:29 PM Subject: Re: FDN303 datasheet > > > On 9/13/16 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> By any chance does anyone have (or know where I could find) a datasheet for >> an FDN303 LSI chip used in a number of floppy drives? >> >> Lots of tantalizing links in Google but the ones I followed all lead >> nowhere... >> > > you're going to have a really tough time finding tech data for any Japanese > ASIC So I've found... ;-) > it looks like it is a Panasonic part (most of the hits on FDN303 are for the > Fairchild smt part) > used in an NEC FD1231H > > about the only thing I see are mods for using them on Amigas I should have said the links lead nowhere that's relevant... As a matter of fact I am playing with some NEC FD1231T's, trying to modify them for 8" emulation (1.2MB mode); I had read some of the Amiga mod articles and they were a little help although they don't address the speed issue and the DC on pin 2 mod doesn't apply. Fortunately I found the NEC's motor speed control is labelled on the inside of the motor, so maybe I've got enough info to make it work. That also tells me the speed control pin of the FDN303 (pin 38) which may come in handy on other drives. It'd still be nice to have a datasheet though. Thanks, Al! m
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
tis 2016-09-13 klockan 10:43 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: > > Heh, the first message that I got after I changed the PRAM battery and > booted MacOS was that the system time didn't match the NTP time within > reasonable limits. But there the oddity hit--if I wanted to get rid of > the message, I had to open the Control Panel and manually set the time > to something close to NTP--Mac OS did not offer to do it for me. > Which is how it is done in Linux today - if the system clock is to much off ntpd won't touch it. What would happen if the selected ntp server which ntpd wants is cracked and intentionally serving false time ? For ntpd it is a security feature that it won't change a system time which is badly out of sync. ntp is intentionally designed so that it will only change system time gradually.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
tis 2016-09-13 klockan 19:31 +0200 skrev Liam Proven: > On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > > See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. > > My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me > fired from Red Hat. > > Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff > from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and > move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever > -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin > were quicker to imitate. > > Also see merging /bin + /sbin + /usr/bin + /usr/sbin into one and > other such steps. > I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install. The rather temperamental behaviour of anaconda when working with kickstart files is ... unsatisfying. So is the behaviour when doing interactive installs against a virtual machine (vmware server as host), temperamental to say the least. The trouble was with the geometry of the screen and the selected graphical chip.
Re: Seeking docs and schematic for Novation CAT modem
On 9/13/2016 1:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: Hi, All, Good seeing many of you at VCF-midwest. One of my scores was an Atari-badged Novation CAT modem. Digging around for any docs, what I'm mostly finding is lots of info about Novations Apple II products, and scant mention with thumbnail pictures of the original CAT acoustic coupler, that and dozens of sites copying the Wikipedia article. Anyone have any CAT info? I can reverse-engineer the schematic, but if that's already been done, no reason for me to redocument the wheel. I know it wants a 20VAC 400mA PSU, but I want to check how strict that is (i.e., 18VAC @ 500mA or 24 VAC @ 350 mA, for example, which may be easier to find than an unregulated 20VAC PSU). I would love to play with a CBM 8010 (since I have so many PETs) but I do happen to have a couple of IEEE-488 to RS-232 devices, which will work fine with this Atari 830/Novation CAT. -ethan I have the manual for a 103/212 smart cat modem. PN 490418-1/490521-1. Circa 1982 Is that what you need? Cheers, Joe
Re: FDN303 datasheet
On 9/13/16 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > By any chance does anyone have (or know where I could find) a datasheet for > an FDN303 LSI chip used in a number of floppy drives? > > Lots of tantalizing links in Google but the ones I followed all lead > nowhere... > you're going to have a really tough time finding tech data for any Japanese ASIC it looks like it is a Panasonic part (most of the hits on FDN303 are for the Fairchild smt part) used in an NEC FD1231H about the only thing I see are mods for using them on Amigas
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 3:08 PM, jim stephens wrote: > There is also the LU stuff that went on on SNA, which is a big steaming pile, > and very few ever got that to work other > than IBM. I worked with the guy who did the Nubus token ring card. He originally used the TI chip set, then had to switch to IBM's because TI's didn't work thanks to undocumented stuff in IBM's implementation. Apple's LU 6.2 was no fun at all. Like you said, a lot of sunk costs for very few sales.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/2016 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 09/13/2016 01:05 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet package. And MacTCP was available early on, too. Does bisync and HASP, does it? --Chuck Those would not have been much use. If they could do IND$FILE uploading and downloading that was usually what a connected device needed to do. The bisync required either a dedicated comm program of some sort, and HASP was usually a shared resource. I don't think Apple though of much money to be made doing the server type functions of either of those. There is also the LU stuff that went on on SNA, which is a big steaming pile, and very few ever got that to work other than IBM. In the case where I worked on a project with it, the IBM side was never made to work. thanks Jim
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
There were nubus IRMA cards for 3270 fans http://www.ebay.com/itm/290443334905 and the Apple Cluster Controller http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/brochures/Apple_Cluster_Controller_and_Appleline_Sales_Reference_Guide_Jul84.pdf I'm sure these were checkbox items. There was a push in the late 80's buy the Networking and Communications group for better connectivity, mainly to get penetration into corporations. On 9/13/16 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does bisync and HASP, does it? >
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 01:05 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, > along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet > package. And MacTCP was available early on, too. Does bisync and HASP, does it? --Chuck
Seeking docs and schematic for Novation CAT modem
Hi, All, Good seeing many of you at VCF-midwest. One of my scores was an Atari-badged Novation CAT modem. Digging around for any docs, what I'm mostly finding is lots of info about Novations Apple II products, and scant mention with thumbnail pictures of the original CAT acoustic coupler, that and dozens of sites copying the Wikipedia article. Anyone have any CAT info? I can reverse-engineer the schematic, but if that's already been done, no reason for me to redocument the wheel. I know it wants a 20VAC 400mA PSU, but I want to check how strict that is (i.e., 18VAC @ 500mA or 24 VAC @ 350 mA, for example, which may be easier to find than an unregulated 20VAC PSU). I would love to play with a CBM 8010 (since I have so many PETs) but I do happen to have a couple of IEEE-488 to RS-232 devices, which will work fine with this Atari 830/Novation CAT. -ethan
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
Vince, This struck me as a pretty clever bit of code. My first cut used 23 words including 2 masks and 3 temporaries. This is the working version of Vince's original. It uses 18 words including 1 mask and 2 temporaries. I have done some edge testing and it appears to work. 30 / THIS VERSION BY VINCE SLYNGSTAD 31 00210 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 32 00211 3175 DCA SAVEAC 33 00212 7420 SNL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 34 00213 7040 CMA /AS A -1 FOR ISZ TEST 35 00214 3176 DCA SAVEL 36 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 37 00216 1175 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 38 00217 0177 AND C7700 /0 XXX XXX 000 000 39 00220 1175 TAD SAVEAC /X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 40 00221 7006 RTL /X XXX 0YY YYY YXX 41 00222 7006 RTL /X X0Y YYY YYX XXX 42 00223 7006 RTL /0 YYY YYY XXX XXX 43 00224 2176 ISZ SAVEL /WAS LINK SET? 44 00225 7020 CML /YES, RESTORE LINK 45 00226 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN 46 $ As Klemens Krause points out you do need the CLL (line 36) somewhere before the second TAD SAVEAC or it will flip what was the original leftmost bit (AC 0). I have thought about this a bunch and have come up with an improved version. It also uses 18 words including 2 constants two temporaries. This is one less instruction executed. 32 00210 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 33 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC 34 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 35 00213 1177 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION 36 00214 3175 DCA SAVEL 37 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 38 00216 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 39 00217 0176 AND C7700 /0 XXX XXX 000 000 40 00220 1174 TAD SAVEAC /X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 41 00221 1175 TAD SAVEL /X XXX XXL YYY YYY 42 00222 7006 RTL /X XXX LYY YYY YXX 43 00223 7006 RTL /X XLY YYY YYX XXX 44 00224 7006 RTL /L YYY YYY XXX XXX 45 00225 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN Not bad but I realized even more was possible. 31 00210 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 32 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC 33 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 34 00213 1176 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION 35 00214 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 36 00215 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 37 00216 0175 AND C7700 /0 XXX XXX 000 000 38 00217 1174 TAD SAVEAC /X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 39 00220 7006 RTL /X XXX LYY YYY YXX 40 00221 7006 RTL /X XLY YYY YYX XXX 41 00222 7006 RTL /L YYY YYY XXX XXX 42 00223 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN I realized I could add in the link with the first TAD and the result is the same so was able to eliminate the DCA SAVEL and the corresponding TAD SAVEL and since SAVEL was not used anymore I got rid of that as well. This is 15 words long which includes the two constants and the one temporary. I think the only way you could do this faster would be to use a whole field as a lookup table but that uses a lot more space. 48 00227 BSWT1, .-. 49 00230 3175 DCA SAVEAC 50 00231 6271 CDF 070 /ASSUME LOOKUP TABLE IS ON PAGE 7 51 00232 1575 TAD I SAVEAC 52 00233 6201 CDF 000 /RESTORE DATA FIELD 53 00234 5627 JMP I BSWT1 /RETURN Something like that anyway. Thanks for an interesting bit of optimization! Doug On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Kyle Owen: Thursday, September 08, 2016 3:53 PM > >> How does the following compare to your BSWEMU, by the way? This ensures >> that the link bit remains untouched, which may or may not be important in >> every case of BSW in my application. >> > > I'm sure I've seen some code before that does this, but I can't seem to >> find any now that I'm looking for it. Maybe there's a shorter way. I think >> this takes 23 words if you include the (0100), (7700), and (0077), which >> may or may not also be used elsewhere in the first page where I put this >> subroutine. >> > > Here's my slightly optimized version, for what it's worth: > 1*400 > 2/ > 3/ BSW emulation > 4/ > 5 00400 bsw,.-. > 6 00401 3216 dca saveac / Save AC > 7 00402 7630 szl cla / Link set? > 8 00403 7140 cll cma
FDN303 datasheet
By any chance does anyone have (or know where I could find) a datasheet for an FDN303 LSI chip used in a number of floppy drives? Lots of tantalizing links in Google but the ones I followed all lead nowhere... TIA, m
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Klemens Krause wrote: > Next question: my hp35 has 36 keys. The 36th key is not accessible > for normal users. It's hidden below the "ENTER" key. What does this > key do? If I remember right, it's a kind of debug-key. I believe it > shifts the whole register including exponent and signs digit by digit > to the left. The keyboard dispatch is done using a "goto keys" instruction, which replaces the low eight bits of the program counter with a hardware keycode. On the HP-35, the "right half of ENTER" switch doesn't do anything useful. The location it jumps to is just an arbitrary instruction in the code. On the HP-45, the "right half of ENTER" key was carefully planned to be useful to enter the undocumented stopwatch mode, by a STO right-ENTER key sequence. If you put a shim under the right half of the enter key, then STO ENTER will do it. Otherwise you can get it as a phantom key by pressing STO, then a simultaneous press of CHS, 7, and 8. It takes some practice to get that reliably by hand; some people used the "penny trick" to press the three keys together.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On Sep 13, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote: > >> There was SNAps: > > And it only took them until 1993! Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet package. And MacTCP was available early on, too. > While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has > always gotten short shrift. This is pretty much a myth. It was actually not very long after Jobs’ ouster that Apple started to work on expandable Macs, integration with other systems, etc. -- Chris
Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8
On Wed, 7 Sep 2016, Kyle Owen wrote: Glad some folks got a kick out of it enough to try it out! Feel free to suggest improvements where you see fit. I was thinking about adding support to read keystrokes from a file for macro programmability...but that might be too absurd even for this project. Maybe the HP-41C simulator is next... :) I tried the new version of your program with option STRT8=1 First PAL8 complained about "IFNZER". PAL8 wants "IFNZRO"! After changing this, assambly was successfull, and I could start the program on the straight-8. All seemed to be ok, with the exception, that sine (keyboard I) and roll (keyboard L) do not work with your new version. These keys are just ignored. Same behaviour on my 8/E, no difference to the straight-8. Another issue: your BSWSUB has still the bug, that DCA BSWTMP SNL CMA DCA BSWLNK CLL / THIS MUST BE! the CLL is missing. Without this, the bit 0 on entry of this routine is inverted, when the link is set on entry. Remember, the link is not a carry! Next question: my hp35 has 36 keys. The 36th key is not accessible for normal users. It's hidden below the "ENTER" key. What does this key do? If I remember right, it's a kind of debug-key. I believe it shifts the whole register including exponent and signs digit by digit to the left. Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de
Re: No telnet! omg! What do I do? - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
Boy are you going to get a shock when you start using containers for deployment. --Toby (who doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to install 1 package for telnet client) I get that none of thius applies to modern devops, but sometimes crap goes wrong, or you're working on a host (RHEL w/ KVM is compelling) for a shop that would go looking for tupperware if you mentioned a container.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote: > There was SNAps: > > http://imap.parismoveis.com/index.pl/S0/http/www.thefreelibrary.com/APPLE+SHIPS+SNA.PS+5250+TERMINAL+EMULATOR+FOR+IBM+AS=252F400+SYSTEMS-a013177363 > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQEMBAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=apple+snaps+5250&source=bl&ots=hpcJE58XPO&sig=fId5n3iwTp3hYUS6TWlMWmU9kmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEtuaKho3PAhUP5WMKHeEYDv44ChDoAQhKMAk#v=onepage&q=apple%20snaps%205250&f=false And it only took them until 1993! While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has always gotten short shrift. --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/2016 10:00 AM, Al Kossow wrote: On 9/13/16 9:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. csh though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols aren't shipped out of the box They can be added, and it was only after quite a long time of warning that telnet was not a safe protocol as Al says that the steps were taken to remove it. And sshd is removed on a lot of distributions, so that avenue of attack is not present out of the box. It is secure over the net, but if default passwords exist, and sshd is there, and not set up to deny remote logins of certain id's you have as big a problem Of course with the means to create a distro a week, you can create a clone of any distribution with telnet and telnetd any time you like. thanks Jim
No telnet! omg! What do I do? - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 2016-09-13 1:44 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: On 9/13/16 12:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote: On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me fired from Red Hat. Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin were quicker to imitate. Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?(Maybe a case could be made for traceroute) These types of changes to the core of userland are epic dumb IMHO. Telnet is very useful for debugging, and certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done. Boy are you going to get a shock when you start using containers for deployment. --Toby (who doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to install 1 package for telnet client)
Re: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
I am well aware.. However not everything has netcat. But many things have a simple telnet client. On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated: >> Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response. >> Do it a lot. > > The kids are using nc (netcat) these days. It supports both TCP and UDP. > > -spc >
Custom mechanical keyboard PCB - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 2016-09-13 12:25 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: On Sep 13, 2016, at 09:16, Al Kossow wrote: Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 style) so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you can't even make a practical replacement. I've investigated making a custom mechanical keyboard upgrade for my old TRS-80 Color Computers. Custom printing on Cherry MX keycaps is available and somewhat practical for one-off keyboards. The limitation is that you're stuck with the keycap widths available in each row of a sculpted Windows-like keyboard. In the case of the CoCo keyboard I contemplated, I could not exactly match the widths of all of the non-1x1 key caps of the original keyboard, but I was able to come up with an alternate layout that I think would have been serviceable. If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. Not full freedom due to limitations of available widths in each row, but still quite a bit. Maybe you can get some ideas from this (somewhat tasteless) project? https://hackaday.io/project/13210-the-fsociety-keyboard --Toby
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > But isn't that typical of the Apple Way? Right from the start, there > were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world. > Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the > announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac? There was SNAps: http://imap.parismoveis.com/index.pl/S0/http/www.thefreelibrary.com/APPLE+SHIPS+SNA.PS+5250+TERMINAL+EMULATOR+FOR+IBM+AS=252F400+SYSTEMS-a013177363 https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQEMBAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=apple+snaps+5250&source=bl&ots=hpcJE58XPO&sig=fId5n3iwTp3hYUS6TWlMWmU9kmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEtuaKho3PAhUP5WMKHeEYDv44ChDoAQhKMAk#v=onepage&q=apple%20snaps%205250&f=false
Re: bitsavers FP11-B schem: M8115-0-01 sheets 1 and 2 missing?
On 9/10/2016 10:09 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m working on debugging an FP11-B floating point option in a PDP-11/45. > I’ve just discovered that in the engineering drawings for this on bitsavers, > sheets 1 and 2 of the FRL board prints are missing :-( > > Does anybody have a complete set of FP11-B drawings? I can work around the > missing sheets if I have to because sheet 1 is just the IC layout sheet and > sheet 2 is probably quite similar to sheet 3, but it sure would be convenient > to have the whole set… > > cheers, > —-FritzM. > > > I have scanned in my (complete) copy. It is available in https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU File is pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/PDP11_FP11-B_Floating-Point_Processor_Engineering_Drawings.zip This zip file contains .tif files of the individual pages, as well as a PDF. (Credit: U. Wisconsin College of Engineering Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, from which these drawings were obtained many many years ago.) JRJ
Re: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated: > Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response. > Do it a lot. The kids are using nc (netcat) these days. It supports both TCP and UDP. -spc
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 11:12 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here? As I said, Mac OS 9.2. I'm not interested for my G3 to talk to other Macs--the only other one here is a Performa 6100 running OS 7.mumble. > That's why MachTen and so on existed -- to make classic Mac boxes > serve up all that weird Unix Internet type stuff. Making 'em /clients/ > to it was a bit easier. But isn't that typical of the Apple Way? Right from the start, there were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world. Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac? --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 11:26 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Actually, most of my systems on *this* isolated intranet run a > telnetd. It's inward facing, of course, but there's no reason for > encryption on this network when I'm the sole user. Exactly so--I'm interested in communication between local systems used by myself. No need for security. In fact, most of my systems don't use passwords for login. Why? When I'm the only one using them, demanding the use of passwords and encryption is pure insanity. I have enough of a problem remembering the host names of the various boxes. I might as well install cipher locks on all the interior doors of my house. It wouldn't make me one bit more secure--just frustrated with the useless effort. --Chuck
Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response. Do it a lot. > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?(Maybe a case > could be made for traceroute) These types of changes to the core of > userland are epic dumb IMHO. Telnet is very useful for debugging, and > certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> > But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have > > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, > > There is no ssh equivalent to telnet (the command). It sounds to me as > though you are thinking of telnet, the command, as nothing but an > interface to telnet, the remote login protocol. That is far from its > only use; indeed, these days, that isn't much of a use at all. I can't > recall the last time I saw a machine running a telnet daemon even on an > isolated intranet. Actually, most of my systems on *this* isolated intranet run a telnetd. It's inward facing, of course, but there's no reason for encryption on this network when I'm the sole user. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, There is no ssh equivalent to telnet (the command). It sounds to me as though you are thinking of telnet, the command, as nothing but an interface to telnet, the remote login protocol. That is far from its only use; indeed, these days, that isn't much of a use at all. I can't recall the last time I saw a machine running a telnet daemon even on an isolated intranet. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> >> See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. > > csh > > Possibly. I find sh more usable than stock csh, though shells are > almost as personal an issue as keyboards or editors. I end up building tcsh on just about any new system I bring up. I've just expected it won't be there. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- "have do you a weak flatulence?" -- Babelfish Dutch translation
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 19:44, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure? Well, OK, no, not that I know of! > (Maybe a case > could be made for traceroute) Wouldn't know. But AIUI the new ``ip'' command subsumes a lot of this stuff. I'm not very au fait with it but it was high time -- it was due for some rationalisation. > These types of changes to the core of > userland are epic dumb IMHO. Why? Seriously? > Telnet is very useful for debugging, and > certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done. So add it back if you need it. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
>> See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. > csh Possibly. I find sh more usable than stock csh, though shells are almost as personal an issue as keyboards or editors. > though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols aren't > shipped out of the box If you think of telnet, the program, as strictly an interface to telnet, the remote login protocol, then I can see how you might think it reasonable to drop it. But telnet-the-program hasn't been just that for...decades, at the very least. Every telnet I can recall, clear back to the days (circa 4.2BSD) when my wetware memory isn't reliable any longer, accepted a port number and was extremely useful for dealing with any of various possible networking issues. To name three real uses I've made of it recently: to check what a remote sshd banners as, to check what an RFB server banners as, and (in conjunction with script(1) to capture the output of a one-off server set up to transfer a text file (this being the use case I had for it on the Pi 3). netstat, that's a completely different issue. There's no "clear text protocol" issue there. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 19:50, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, so at least > you have *something* to get the job done. Mac OS gave me nothing for > doing standard stuff over TCP/IP connections. OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here? If classic MacOS, no, probably not, but there were tons of 3rd party tools, many of them free or shareware. In the Classic era, TCP/IP was a bit of a bolt-on extra on MacOS -- AppleTalk was necessary for most real networking with other Macs. That's why MachTen and so on existed -- to make classic Mac boxes serve up all that weird Unix Internet type stuff. Making 'em /clients/ to it was a bit easier. Similar to TCP's status on Novell Netware 2/3/4, or early VMS, or early IBM mini/mainframe stuff from what I've heard. Even to Windows 3 and WfWg. That was the era of proprietary protocols, and every vendor had their own. First, gradually, TCP/IP got added, often as a token gesture with severe caveats and restrictions. Later versions of most of them integrated it properly, then in subsequent versions, the proprietary-protocol support gradually got ripped out. In the late '80s or early-mid '90s, to me, TCP was the Unix protocol, and since I didn't use much Unix, it was an alien outcast in a world of AppleTalk, NetBEUI, IPX/SPX and DECnet. Most of my work involved getting Windows to talk several of these at once so it could both talk to other Windows boxes and to some alien kit at the same time... early on, ideally while still having enough memory to do anything useful. TCP didn't figure at all until post-'96, when the WWW suddenly started to be something people wanted. For the next 5y or so, my networks ran NetBEUI or IPX for workstation-workstation and workstation-server comms, and TCP just to talk to the proxy/email server and thus to the outside world. By the early noughties, Smoothwall came in and made Windows proxy servers a thing of the past. Around the same time my clients started switching to broadband, and soon, I ripped out all the proprietary protocols. Soon after, Mac OS X did the same. By about 2005 or so most things were pure TCP. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 10:31 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff > from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme > and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, > whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and > its kin were quicker to imitate. Well, the packages *should* be available for installation, if desired. There are various back doors to linux-embedded appliances (mostly using BusyBox) that employ telnet and ftp and they're not likely to implement ssh. OpenBSD is probably the most draconian in this respect. They don't offer an optional ftpd/telnetd in any package. If you want a cleartext server, you have to find the source, modify and re-compile it yourself. But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, so at least you have *something* to get the job done. Mac OS gave me nothing for doing standard stuff over TCP/IP connections. --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 12:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote: On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me fired from Red Hat. Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin were quicker to imitate. Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure?(Maybe a case could be made for traceroute) These types of changes to the core of userland are epic dumb IMHO. Telnet is very useful for debugging, and certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 09:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > yea.. another project. Getting an Apple 20 pin drive working with a > flux transition reader. Not that much of an issue--after all, the old CopyIIPC deluxe option board came with a bunch of 400K/800K Mac utilities and uses standard drives. I might have used that, but the system was buried at the bottom of a pile and I wanted to preserve the Apple file structure as much as was possible, not translate it into MS-DOS. > The one example that directly involved me was I asked them to support > NTP internally on the engineering network, so I didn't have to set > the clock constantly (I had a prototype machine with an RTC that ran > fast). Around 1997 at the peak of the "dark times" an email (which > was FINALLY SMTP and not some stupidity like AppleLink) went out that > there was no budget to maintain the NTP server any more. Fortunately, > the NeXT purchase of Apple happened, the people that groked Unix came > in, and that bit of stupidity was killed. Heh, the first message that I got after I changed the PRAM battery and booted MacOS was that the system time didn't match the NTP time within reasonable limits. But there the oddity hit--if I wanted to get rid of the message, I had to open the Control Panel and manually set the time to something close to NTP--Mac OS did not offer to do it for me. --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 18:16, Al Kossow wrote: > This posting must have been trapped in a time warp since 1996 :-) Well, it's true, I was amassing collection since then. I have, I think, enough Apple, IBM and DEC keyboards to last my lifetime. I tried to adapt to the Sun layout -- as evangelised by my friend Stephane Tsacas, who I met via this list -- mainly for a giggle. There is stuff to like about it, but for me, the feel of the switches is more important than the layout. I favour the classic DEC/IBM layout -- with a Compose key -- but I'm happy enough on laptop keyboards, too. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 18:58, Al Kossow wrote: > I would be very surprised if much effort was put into making floppies work > under OS X As far as I know, legacy floppies on a SWIM or whatever are not and never have been supported at all. However, USB floppies work fine -- but only for standard disk formats. You can't read/write old Mac 400/800kB disks in 'em. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 18:51, Mouse wrote: > That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3 > that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet. Because it's insecure. OpenSSH is the recommendation these days. But if you need it, it's trivial to add it back. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me fired from Red Hat. Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin were quicker to imitate. Also see merging /bin + /sbin + /usr/bin + /usr/sbin into one and other such steps. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> > After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9 > > As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well. > > I had just been using Appleshare until I switched to an Intel based > server which no longer supports the old protocol. I keep a Sawtooth G4 running 10.4 for file server tasks. It talks to almost anything on the network. However, the LocalTalk machines have to talk to the NetBSD IIci, which still runs an old enough NetBSD where the old AppleTalk protocols work properly (over a Dayna EtherPrint-T), and NFSes to whatever mount it needs to "mirror." -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 9:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc. csh though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols aren't shipped out of the box
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 9:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd mostly run the G3 under OS X 10.4 using XPostFacto, but I don't > believe that the combo supports the old 400K and 800K floppy formats. I > could have booted the G3 into OS X after I'd done the reading under OS > 9.2, but that seemed to be the long way 'round the problem. > yea.. another project. Getting an Apple 20 pin drive working with a flux transition reader. I would be very surprised if much effort was put into making floppies work under OS X Apple was dragged kicking and screaming into the TCP world. The one example that directly involved me was I asked them to support NTP internally on the engineering network, so I didn't have to set the clock constantly (I had a prototype machine with an RTC that ran fast). Around 1997 at the peak of the "dark times" an email (which was FINALLY SMTP and not some stupidity like AppleLink) went out that there was no budget to maintain the NTP server any more. Fortunately, the NeXT purchase of Apple happened, the people that groked Unix came in, and that bit of stupidity was killed.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 11:51 AM, Mouse wrote: What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of the package, [...] That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3 that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet. See Also RedHat and CentOS.No telnet, netstat, etc.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
It may have gotten lost in the pre-move chaos. I just pinged him about it again. On 9/13/16 9:36 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sep 13, 2016 9:16 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >> >> I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from > microprocessor >> based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are > disappearing >> the same way CRT monitors have. > > Did you ever get any Motorola EXORterm docs that were mentioned here? > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44638-Motorola-EXORciser/page4 >
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP > networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of > the package, [...] That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3 that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 09/13/2016 09:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9 > > As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well. After I'd done the job, I found out that MacSSH is available at SourceForge. What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of the package, I mean, in addition to every version of *nix supplying it, ftp has been a standard MS offering since MSLANMAN. But clearly, I'll never get used to the Apple Way. I'd mostly run the G3 under OS X 10.4 using XPostFacto, but I don't believe that the combo supports the old 400K and 800K floppy formats. I could have booted the G3 into OS X after I'd done the reading under OS 9.2, but that seemed to be the long way 'round the problem. --Chuck
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On Sep 13, 2016 9:16 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from microprocessor > based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are disappearing > the same way CRT monitors have. Did you ever get any Motorola EXORterm docs that were mentioned here? http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44638-Motorola-EXORciser/page4
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 9:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX > keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. True enough. I have even bought some switches and non so great Cherry keyboards to harvest keytops. About 10 WY-30 keyboards in so-so condition showed up for about $7 ea, so i'll probably just go with that, since they seem to be the least desirable (next to WY-50) for the mechanical collectors. Televideo was pretty consistent with their serial keyboard protocol and voltages, Qume.. not at all. I've identified at least 4 different styles of 4-pin connector keyboards using either 12 or 5 volt power. Then, there is ADDS, Hazeltine, Microterm, DG, Freedom, ...
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 09:16, Al Kossow wrote: > > Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops > for > Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 > style) > so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you > can't > even make a practical replacement. > I've investigated making a custom mechanical keyboard upgrade for my old TRS-80 Color Computers. Custom printing on Cherry MX keycaps is available and somewhat practical for one-off keyboards. The limitation is that you're stuck with the keycap widths available in each row of a sculpted Windows-like keyboard. In the case of the CoCo keyboard I contemplated, I could not exactly match the widths of all of the non-1x1 key caps of the original keyboard, but I was able to come up with an alternate layout that I think would have been serviceable. If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. Not full freedom due to limitations of available widths in each row, but still quite a bit. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/12/16 11:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9 As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well. I had just been using Appleshare until I switched to an Intel based server which no longer supports the old protocol. There was a company that sold a package that put the protocol back, but they have gone out of business, so I've been bouncing it through a FreeNAS server, which still works, but AFP support is kinda klunky (never liked AppleDouble very much..)
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 9/13/16 6:19 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > One of the great things about vintage mechanical keyboards is that > they can be acquired very cheaply indeed. ;-) > This posting must have been trapped in a time warp since 1996 :-) I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from microprocessor based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are disappearing the same way CRT monitors have. Besides the surviving examples looking like they have been stored in a cow barn for 20 years, they (almost) never come with a keyboard if it was detachable. This is bad enough that I've been thinking of building a serial protocol converter for Televideo and Qume terminals for Wyse keyboards, which you can still find for a painful but not absurdly high price. Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 style) so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you can't even make a practical replacement. I did do the Snoopy Dance this weekend, though, when I found an Esprit at the flea market for $20. Pics and firmware dumps up on bitsavers under hazeltine/esprit now.
Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)
On 13 September 2016 at 02:32, Richard Loken wrote: > My Mac Mini has been treated to new modern keyboard purchased at rediculous > expense upon the recommendation of my long time friend G.L.Nerenberg II. > And it says underneath "WASD Model: V2 Type: Cherry MX Green". It is > gloriously noisy! :-) One of the great things about vintage mechanical keyboards is that they can be acquired very cheaply indeed. ;-) > I have an aluminum Apple keyboard in the box this keyboard came out of, > those Apple chicklet keyboard are just plain horrible. They're the best chicklet keyboards out there -- but I agree with you; I really dislike using them. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
