Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/26/2017 09:53 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

> Ah yes, the interesting 11MB IMI 7710. Cromemco also used them in their Z-2H; 
> I still have one somewhere, not a bad drive when it worked ;-)  

The really crazy thing is that we were taking our hardware over to
Viking Labs to do temperature, humidity and shake table testing, along
with hipot.   We were pretty proud that things kept working even after
the CRT neck fractured.

Something like the IMI drive was downright ludicrous.  I know that
shortly thereafter, they merged with Onyx--you could see their building
on N. First Street with the "Onyx + IMI" logo on it.

--Chuck

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" 
To: "Jules Richardson via cctalk" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC


> On 09/26/2017 03:53 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 09/26/2017 01:19 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote:
>>> I don't know if it's a good idea to low level format a drive or not.
>> 
>> I remember at least one manufacturer recommending it for their drive(s)
>> if they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - presumably there were tiny
>> effects on the head positioning and so not doing a LLF would result in
>> problems.
> 
> I remember quite vividly evaluating the then-new IMI hard drive--the
> thing with a smoke-black plexiglas top and about the size of a shoebox.
> I think Corvus sold them as Apple II addons.
> 
> It used a voice-coil positioner.  If you lifted the front of the drive
> to about a 10 degree (or more) inclination, the positioner would go
> nuts, making all sorts of noise trying to stay on track--and eventually
> erroring out.
> 
> --Chuck
-

Ah yes, the interesting 11MB IMI 7710. Cromemco also used them in their Z-2H; I 
still have one somewhere, not a bad drive when it worked ;-)  

http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Manuals/Cromemco/IMI_7710%20Hard%20Disk%20Brochure.pdf

https://amaus.org/static/S100/cromemco/photos/Cromemco%20Z2H/IMI%20drive%202.jpg

m

RE: HP 2108A key

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

I bought 2! One to use and one to loose...  Ed#

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 CuriousMarc via cctalk  
wrote:
And indeed, the H2007 key from eBay works perfectly! Thanks a lot for the link. 
I also have two kinds of 21 MX's, one with the double sided on/off H2007 key, 
and one with a regular HP 1000 key and front panel arrangement. That key opens 
the front panel. However, the second 21MX actually says "21 MX E-series" on the 
front panel, still with the old 21MX blue color lines on the panel. So I 
believe it's an early HP 1000E before the "1000" rebranding. Then the 21 MX 
became 1000M, and my 21 MX E-series became an HP 1000E. 
Marc

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens 
via cctalk
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 6:03 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP 2108A key


The 2007 can be bought on ebay. It also is the Microdata 1600, Reality and 
other standard key. I carry one on my keyring just for nostalgia, and also if I 
run across a 1600.

FWIW it also will open most Pepsi and Coke dispensers in such as McDonalds, as 
well as quite a few devices in Phoenix Sky Harbor air port. Latter is not 
recommended now with TSA around.

Supplying an example ebay auction:

H2007-2007-Key-Precut-Chicago-Lock-Illinois-NEW-FACTORY-CUT-SHIPS-FAST

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322652408202

I lucked out and have filing cabinet cores, upright cabinet key cores, and 
stand alone switches, all on the same key. When you fool with something for 40 
years, things like this shows up.

Thanks
jim

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Well there goes my evening, thanks Chuck!

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 09/26/2017 06:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> > Cool, is there documentation available for this formatting and
> > error-check/correction algorithm and structure? I'd like to take a look!
>
> A good place to start is the HP "Introduction to Magnetic Tape" in
> bitsavers:
>
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/hp/tape/
> MVD-014_introToMagTap_Apr71.pdf
>
> --Chuck
>
>

RE: HP 2108A key

[CuriousMarc via cctalk]

And indeed, the H2007 key from eBay works perfectly! Thanks a lot for the link. 
 I also have two kinds of 21 MX's, one with the double sided on/off H2007 key, 
and one with a  regular HP 1000 key and front panel arrangement. That key opens 
the front panel. However, the second 21MX actually says "21 MX E-series" on the 
front panel, still with the old 21MX blue color lines  on the panel. So I 
believe it's an early HP 1000E before the "1000" rebranding. Then the 21 MX 
became 1000M, and my 21 MX E-series became an HP 1000E.  
Marc

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens 
via cctalk
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 6:03 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP 2108A key


The 2007 can be bought on ebay.  It also is the Microdata 1600, Reality and 
other standard key.  I carry one on my keyring just for nostalgia, and also if 
I run across a 1600.

FWIW it also will open most Pepsi and Coke dispensers in such as McDonalds, as 
well as quite a few devices in Phoenix Sky Harbor air port.  Latter is not 
recommended now with TSA around.

Supplying an example ebay auction:

H2007-2007-Key-Precut-Chicago-Lock-Illinois-NEW-FACTORY-CUT-SHIPS-FAST

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322652408202

I lucked out and have filing cabinet cores, upright cabinet key cores, and 
stand alone switches, all on the same key.  When you fool with something for 40 
years, things like this shows up.

Thanks
jim

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/26/2017 06:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Cool, is there documentation available for this formatting and
> error-check/correction algorithm and structure? I'd like to take a look!

A good place to start is the HP "Introduction to Magnetic Tape" in
bitsavers:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/hp/tape/MVD-014_introToMagTap_Apr71.pdf

--Chuck

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Cool, is there documentation available for this formatting and
error-check/correction algorithm and structure? I'd like to take a look!

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 09/25/2017 11:40 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Yes, you will need the controller to at least format, but not sure about
> just reading/writing.
>
> Looking at the interface, it's pretty much a "raw" interface.
>
> As in a lot of things in life, timing is everything in tapes.Tape
> blocks are separated by blank gaps--it's the gap that defines the block
> boundaries.   In addition, check characters (LRCC in 7 track; CRC+LRCC
> in 9 track) are separated from block data by a specified number of bit
> times of empty space.
>
> External logic has to generate/check vertical and horizontal parity, and
> insert the required spacing between check characters and inter-block
> gaps.   In addition, most formatters will correct any single-bit errors
> in a block (using the vertical and horizontal parity(LRCC) to locate the
> bit in error).
>
> Logic should also include generation/detection of tapemarks.
>
> It's not simple, but it's also not rocket science.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I remember quite vividly evaluating the then-new IMI hard drive--the
thing with a smoke-black plexiglas top and about the size of a shoebox.
I think Corvus sold them as Apple II addons.
It used a voice-coil positioner.  If you lifted the front of the drive
to about a 10 degree (or more) inclination, the positioner would go
nuts, making all sorts of noise trying to stay on track--and eventually
erroring out.


"Let's put that in a computer, and put a handle on it, so that people can 
lug it around!, just like we doodled on the pieshop placemat.  If anybody 
has a problem, just remind them that we warned them to low-level format 
anytime that they move it."

Re: Alspa ACI-2 Info?

[jim stephens via cctalk]

There is a 40 pin connector to which you can connect a Corvus drive.

I lost my systems, but may have the media with the BIOS for that 
somewhere.  I've got a corvus subsystem with it on it, but no Alspa.


I'd love to have one again if you part with it.

Mine was lost in a storage theft.

thanks
Jim


On 9/26/2017 10:23 AM, Amardeep S Chana via cctalk wrote:

Google searches only turn up a print ad and a few ancient usenet
discussions.  Bitsavers doesn't have an Alspa directory.  There do seem to
be some boot disks in Gaby's archive.  Does anyone have a line on
documentation?  If not, I'm stripping this sucker for parts (threat only
intended to motivate someone to cough up some documentation -- LOL).

Thanks,
Amardeep

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/26/2017 03:53 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
> On 09/26/2017 01:19 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote:
>> I don't know if it's a good idea to low level format a drive or not.
> 
> I remember at least one manufacturer recommending it for their drive(s)
> if they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - presumably there were tiny
> effects on the head positioning and so not doing a LLF would result in
> problems.

I remember quite vividly evaluating the then-new IMI hard drive--the
thing with a smoke-black plexiglas top and about the size of a shoebox.
I think Corvus sold them as Apple II addons.

It used a voice-coil positioner.  If you lifted the front of the drive
to about a 10 degree (or more) inclination, the positioner would go
nuts, making all sorts of noise trying to stay on track--and eventually
erroring out.

--Chuck

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Brian Marstella via cctalk]

IIRC, the first time I had problems with the low level format was with one
of the early IDE controllers and a 230MB Maxtor. Crapped out the entire
firmware, was never able to get it to admit who it was again. Seemed to
work okay with earlier MFM/RLL 40 MB and 80 MB Conner drives (I think, it's
been a while).

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > > I remember at least one manufacturer >recommending it for their >
> >> drive(s) if they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - >presumably >
> there
> >> were tiny effects on the head positioning and so not >doing a > LLF
> would
> >> result in problems.
> >>
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Ali via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >> This was pretty common wisdom back in the day. Not quote sure how wise
> it
> >> was but it was generally recommended in the magazines of the time. I
> >> remember reading an article about it in PC Magazine.
> >>
> >
> > There were some interesting discussions of that when companies, such as
> > Compaq, first started to put hard drives in portables!
> >
>
> A lot of the conventional wisdom of the time has turned out to be not so
> wise...
>
> Warner
>

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I remember at least one manufacturer >recommending it for their >
>> drive(s) if they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - >presumably > there
>> were tiny effects on the head positioning and so not >doing a > LLF would
>> result in problems.
>>
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>
>> This was pretty common wisdom back in the day. Not quote sure how wise it
>> was but it was generally recommended in the magazines of the time. I
>> remember reading an article about it in PC Magazine.
>>
>
> There were some interesting discussions of that when companies, such as
> Compaq, first started to put hard drives in portables!
>

A lot of the conventional wisdom of the time has turned out to be not so
wise...

Warner

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

> I remember at least one manufacturer >recommending it for their 
> drive(s) if they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - >presumably 
> there were tiny effects on the head positioning and so not >doing a 
> LLF would result in problems.


On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Ali via cctalk wrote:
This was pretty common wisdom back in the day. Not quote sure how wise 
it was but it was generally recommended in the magazines of the time. I 
remember reading an article about it in PC Magazine.


There were some interesting discussions of that when companies, such as 
Compaq, first started to put hard drives in portables!

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Ali via cctalk]

>I remember at least one manufacturer >recommending it for their drive(s) if 
>they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - >presumably there were tiny 
>effects on the head positioning and so not >doing a LLF would result in 
>problems.

This was pretty common wisdom back in the day. Not quote sure how wise it was 
but it was generally recommended in the magazines of the time. I remember 
reading an article about it in PC Magazine.
-Ali

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 09/26/2017 01:19 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote:

I don't know if it's a good idea to low level format a drive or not.


I remember at least one manufacturer recommending it for their drive(s) if 
they were ever tilted through 90 degrees - presumably there were tiny 
effects on the head positioning and so not doing a LLF would result in 
problems.

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/26/2017 12:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Get SpeedStor  (SSTOR.EXE) and use it.
> Once you do, you will never want to go back to the "Advanced
> Diagnostics" nor the BIOS routine.

That'll work.  You can also scribble up your own formatter using the
BIOS calls--or check the SIMTEL20 archive for hard disk utilities.  In
any case, it's not a big deal if you don't have ROM BIOS support for a
formatting utility.


> Actually one of the most common complaints on the early ST506/412 drives
> was noise from the spindle wiper!  There was a little springy piece of
> copper? that rubbed on the end of the spindle.  Over time, it would wear
> a divot, polish that, and start to squeal.  Do NOT just rip it off!
> ("that fixed the noise");  push it sideways very slightly, so that it
> can start to wear a NEW divot.

That, and some drives used a solenoid operated spindle brake (just a
felt pad).  Activating the solenoid released the brake.  Occasionally
the thing would fail and the spindle motor couldn't overcome the drag.

And then there's rubber gone goopy, stiction, etc.   Fun and joy--well,
not so much.

--Chuck

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

g=c800:5


On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Unfortunately, I agree with Fred.  The stock IBM WD1003 controller ROM
did not have a format routine.   Other models of the WD1003 did,
however--you'll see that the controller is a WD1003-something and that
may shed some light on its capabilities.


Get SpeedStor  (SSTOR.EXE) and use it.
Once you do, you will never want to go back to the "Advanced Diagnostics" 
nor the BIOS routine.



Periodically run SPINRITE, if you have it.
Pre-IDE drives had reliability issues.
Use it to lock out blocks that test bad, but do NOT let it "return to 
service" blocks that pass, unless they are NOT on the manufacturer's list 
and have been reFORMATted since the time that they had previously failed.



Actually one of the most common complaints on the early ST506/412 drives 
was noise from the spindle wiper!  There was a little springy piece of 
copper? that rubbed on the end of the spindle.  Over time, it would wear a 
divot, polish that, and start to squeal.  Do NOT just rip it off! ("that 
fixed the noise");  push it sideways very slightly, so that it can start 
to wear a NEW divot.

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

One other trivial thought, . . .
A FAST AT could handle 1:1 interleave.
On many slower ones, an interleave could give dramatic improvement in 
throughput.


Not having the optimum interleave will not interfere with usage, it is 
entirely a performance optimization.


There were even programs that purported to determine the optimum 
interleave for you.  Unfortunately, the application software that you use 
(dBase, Wordstar, Supercalc, etc.) does more processing of the data 
between sectors than only reading it.  So the true optimum interleave was 
also dependent on what programs you used.



Either Speedstor or SPinrite included capability of changing the 
interleave (by reading a track, reformatting the track with sectors in 
different sequence, and then writing the data back to the track.)


Don't worry about the interleave until you get it to work.
An old hot-rodding adage (that few abided by):
"get it to RUN, before you try to get it to RUN FAST."

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Phil Blundell via cctalk]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 14:19 -0400, Ethan via cctalk wrote:
> I don't know if it's a good idea to low level format a drive or not.

Low-level formatting (which, at the time, was just called "formatting")
used to be quite a routine operation on ST-506 MFM and RLL hard disks. 
They usually came completely blank from the factory and you had to
format them according to whatever sector layout and interleave your
particular controller wanted before they were usable.  Once the drive
was formatted you then had to run a separate process to lay out an
actual filesystem.

For MFM controllers on ISA cards I think the formatter was usually in
the BIOS.  For separate MFM controllers with a SCSI interface (Xebec
S1410 kind of things) you used the FORMAT UNIT command.

Newer ATA/SCSI drives with integrated electronics tended to come
preformatted and there often wasn't any way to execute a low-level
format even if you wanted to.  At about the same time they started
using embedded servo data on the disk itself for head positioning which
made it impossible to do a low-level format in the field.  

I can't immediately think of any class of device on which attempting to
execute a low-level format would be an actively bad idea (apart from
destroying your data of course).  On older ones it would work, on newer
ones the drive would refuse the command, but in neither case is there
likely to be any bad consequence.  Was there a time in the middle when
something bad would happen?

p.

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/26/2017 11:57 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:

> g=c800:5

Unfortunately, I agree with Fred.  The stock IBM WD1003 controller ROM
did not have a format routine.   Other models of the WD1003 did,
however--you'll see that the controller is a WD1003-something and that
may shed some light on its capabilities.

--Chuck

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Many hard drive controllers had a crude low level format program in their 
ROMs.  With DEBUG, you could JMP to it, typically
G=C800:5  although some were C800:0 or other offsets.  U C800:0 to look at 
the code and find it.


G=C800:5 or G_c800:800  for Western Digital controllers
  G=C800:CCC  for Adaptec controllers.
  G=C800:5for DTC (Data Technonolgy) controllers
  G=C800:6for OMTI controllers

according to https://kb.iu.edu/d/aaoa

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Ethan via cctalk wrote:


Hi,
trying to check some MFM drives I have on my shelf.
Have an IBM PC AT, with an WD1003 controller in it.
So, what is the best(?) or easiest piece of software,
to format the drives, check for bad blocks, etc.?
I think I remember something like "ontrack" for doing it,
but didn't touch PCs for a while ...
Ideas? Links?
Thanks!


There were utilities like SpinWrite, and of course dos format.

Some of the controller cards have a utility in rom that you can access via 
debug.com (I forget what the address is.)



g=c800:5

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:

trying to check some MFM drives I have on my shelf.
Have an IBM PC AT, with an WD1003 controller in it.
So, what is the best(?) or easiest piece of software,
to format the drives, check for bad blocks, etc.?
I think I remember something like "ontrack" for doing it,
but didn't touch PCs for a while ...
Ideas? Links?


IBM did not supply a low-level FORMAT with the 5150, 5160, 5170.
And there was no hard drive low-level FORMAT supplied in MS-DOS/PC-DOS.
The PC-DOS/MS-ODS FORMAT.COM/FORMAT.EXE did NOT do a low-level format!
A brand new drive came unformatted, and needed
1) low level format
2) partitioning (FDISK)
3) high level format (Directory creation, etc.) (FORMAT.COM/FORMAT.EXE)

About the time of IDE drives, drives began to be shipped low-level 
formatted, and sometimes even partitioned and high level formatted.


It was not rare for a drive to need to be RE-formatted.
And, on 5160, low-level format was often incompatible between different 
controllers!


There was no low level FORMAT in the OS, nor in the "DIAGNOSTICS" that 
came with the machine.
There was an option in IBM's "ADVANCED DIAGNOSTICS", which was not 
supplied with the computer, and was not always readily available.
Many hard drive controllers had a crude low level format program in their 
ROMs.  With DEBUG, you could JMP to it, typically
G=C800:5  although some were C800:0 or other offsets.  U C800:0 to look at 
the code and find it.  It would not over-ride the CMOS parameters, nor do 
much else.



The best aftermarket software for formatting MFM drives on a 5170 was 
"SpeedStor" (SSTOR.EXE).  It took a long time, but it was thorough and 
versatile.

http://vetusware.com/download/SpeedStor%206.5/?id=9884


For testing already formatted drives, and periodic retesting, Steve 
Gibson's "SPINRITE" was best.
https://www.grc.com/cs/prepurch.htm(not FREE, and there has never 
been a FREE version  https://www.grc.com/sr/faq.htm )
BUT, some versions had a "feature" that wass on by defayult, and you had 
to turn off.  Some versions of it, would test a block marked "BAD", and if 
it passed, would return it to service.  That might sound OK, but it didn't 
know or care which ones were on the manufacturer's "BAD BLOCK" list.  If 
the manufacturer of a drive says, "This block is defective, do not use it 
or trust it", then I do NOT want some program to say, "Well, it seemed to 
work when we tried it, so we know more about it than the manufacturer." 
Eventually, he got enough feedback about THAT, and later versions 
defaulted to NOT do that.



There were several additional programs, that were sometimes needed, such 
as if you wanted to have a partition larger than 32MB on DOS 3.30 or 
earlier (MS-DOS 3.31 was first to accept larger partitions).
And, you needed an overlay, such as ONTRACK, to use a drive larger than 
504MB.
Also, if you had a drive whose geometry was too incompatible with your 
computer - not all CMOS/SETUPs had a user-defined drive parameters option.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Dominique Carlier via cctalk]

Maybe simply run the debug utility supplied with DOS and at the prompt 
enter this:


G=C800:5

Normally, all the necessary tools to check and mark bad blocks are 
accessible by this way. However, you will have to encode manually the 
HDD specifications (heads, sectors, etc.)


On 26/09/2017 20:08, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:

Hi,

trying to check some MFM drives I have on my shelf.
Have an IBM PC AT, with an WD1003 controller in it.

So, what is the best(?) or easiest piece of software,
to format the drives, check for bad blocks, etc.?

I think I remember something like "ontrack" for doing it,
but didn't touch PCs for a while ...

Ideas? Links?

Thanks!

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:08 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> trying to check some MFM drives I have on my shelf.
> Have an IBM PC AT, with an WD1003 controller in it.
>
> So, what is the best(?) or easiest piece of software,
> to format the drives, check for bad blocks, etc.?
>
> I think I remember something like "ontrack" for doing it,
> but didn't touch PCs for a while ...

Hi, Emanuel,

I remember OnTrack existing but I never used it.  I don't think the
5170 PC/AT had a BIOS-based formatter, but you could toss the WD1003
into a newer machine (386 and up) and just use the BIOS menus to get
to the formatter.

With older 8-bit controllers, there was often a formatter in the
controller's BIOS ROM, but I don't think the WD1003 has one.

-ethan

Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Ethan via cctalk]

Hi,
trying to check some MFM drives I have on my shelf.
Have an IBM PC AT, with an WD1003 controller in it.
So, what is the best(?) or easiest piece of software,
to format the drives, check for bad blocks, etc.?
I think I remember something like "ontrack" for doing it,
but didn't touch PCs for a while ...
Ideas? Links?
Thanks!


There were utilities like SpinWrite, and of course dos format.

Some of the controller cards have a utility in rom that you can access via 
debug.com (I forget what the address is.)


I don't know if it's a good idea to low level format a drive or not.


--
: Ethan O'Toole

formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

Hi,

trying to check some MFM drives I have on my shelf.
Have an IBM PC AT, with an WD1003 controller in it.

So, what is the best(?) or easiest piece of software,
to format the drives, check for bad blocks, etc.?

I think I remember something like "ontrack" for doing it,
but didn't touch PCs for a while ...

Ideas? Links?

Thanks!

Alspa ACI-2 Info?

[Amardeep S Chana via cctalk]

Google searches only turn up a print ad and a few ancient usenet
discussions.  Bitsavers doesn't have an Alspa directory.  There do seem to
be some boot disks in Gaby's archive.  Does anyone have a line on
documentation?  If not, I'm stripping this sucker for parts (threat only
intended to motivate someone to cough up some documentation -- LOL).

Thanks,
Amardeep

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/25/2017 11:40 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:

> Yes, you will need the controller to at least format, but not sure about just 
> reading/writing.

Looking at the interface, it's pretty much a "raw" interface.

As in a lot of things in life, timing is everything in tapes.Tape
blocks are separated by blank gaps--it's the gap that defines the block
boundaries.   In addition, check characters (LRCC in 7 track; CRC+LRCC
in 9 track) are separated from block data by a specified number of bit
times of empty space.

External logic has to generate/check vertical and horizontal parity, and
insert the required spacing between check characters and inter-block
gaps.   In addition, most formatters will correct any single-bit errors
in a block (using the vertical and horizontal parity(LRCC) to locate the
bit in error).

Logic should also include generation/detection of tapemarks.

It's not simple, but it's also not rocket science.

--Chuck

Re: I REALLY need a scrounger in Richmond, VA

[Ethan via cctalk]

Just a friendly bump. Did anyone post this on vcfed or any mac collector 
forums? 


I went there. There was no Apple stuff that I saw, mostly 386 and 486 
computers. He is a scrapper as a retirement job in RVA and does a lot of 
Hamfests, been doing the for many years.


Prices are based on eBay sold prices, minus a percentage. He said he has 
one or two people that will buy large amounts of stuff straight up then 
eBay it all -- sometimes parting it all out.


Much of the systems from that haul had rust/corrosion - they were in some 
sort of overgrown garage, they were all university / govt surplus from a 
long time ago.


Sounds like he gets cool things from time to time, for free. And you will 
pay a decent amount to get them from him :-) Such is life.


My friend bought 5 computers, 2 PS/2 systems (one 386 and one 486) and 3 
generic 386 computers. Came in at $100. The PS/2 systems were pretty rough 
though (corrosion on metal parts internally.)


I think friends are going back to try to buy some CGA monitors.

Ya roll the dice!

Re: HP 9845 complete system on auction in Sweden

[Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:21 AM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> we see this same effect in large studio cameras on board monitors they
> have. we have just left as us as the large all tube innards do not work
> alas  Ed#
>
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>
> On Monday, September 25, 2017 Ian S. King  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 10:37 AM,  wrote:
>
> Folks - Any idea what causes the screen rot?
>
>
>
> also  any preventative measures to  keep it  from happening or spreading?
>
> Ed#
>
>
> It's the understood chemical decomposition of the adhesive that holds the
> screen shield to the CRT.  It's pretty much inevitable, from what I
> understand.  The solution is to separate the shield from the CRT, clean the
> face of the CRT and reattach the shield.  Some people don't reattach it,
> and some people think they are risking serious injury - no opinion. Will
> the newer adhesives hold up better?  We hope so.  -- Ian
>
> --
>
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School
>
>
A common trick amongst TV collectors with the large 23" round CRTs is to
carefully remove the tube and place it face down in a kiddy pool of
lukewarm water. Let it sit an hour or two in the sun and the faceplate will
slide right off.

To re-adhere the glass after cleaning, one technique is to use double sided
foam tape on the face around the perimeter; similar thickness to the
original PVA and holds well, especially if under slight compression once
the tube is reinstalled. -C

RE: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

> Well, as others have pointed out, a "tape transport" is not the whole 
> ball-of-wax.  You need the ability to format the tape into blocks and then 
> control tape motion in terms of those blocks.  That's what you'd be 
> responsible for in your added electronics.  From the Introduction in the 
> Kennedy
manual:>
> "The Model 9800 is equipped with the electronics
> necessary for reading and writing tapes and for
> controlling the tape motion. The head specifications
> and the mechanical and electrical tolerances of the
> Model 9800 meet the requirements for IBM compatibility.
>
> However, the formatting electronics, parity
> generator, cyclic redundancy check character (CRCC)
> generator, gap control, etc, are not included and
> must be provided by the tape control and formatter
> in order to generate properly formatted IBM compatible
> tapes."

Yes, you will need the controller to at least format, but not sure about just 
reading/writing.
Earlier this year I lucked onto a pair of Kennedy 9000 drives from a listmember 
here in Oz. These are
similar in physical size and arrangement to the HP 97970 rather than the more 
compact 9800 on eBay. Not
long after, I found a Kennedy 9219 Format Control Unit formatter in the US 
which I shipped to Oz. I also
acquired an Emulex TC11 unibus controller and an Emulex TC03 Qbus controller 
but have not been able to find
the split ribbon cable yet. However I think this is the standard Pertec 
interface cable, so I will be posting
the boards to this listmember for testing sometime in the near future to find 
out whether the whole box and
dice will actually work together, at least for one of the controllers. I bought 
some 36-pin edge connectors in
anticipation of making up my own split cable based on the listmember's cable.
It's going to be a long while before I can report anything, but whatever 
happens I'll at least be making some
notes about it.

Steve.

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[jim stephens via cctalk]

For generic drives of either 800 or 1600, there were Pertec formatters 
that drove the three cable Pertec interface (read / write / motion) and 
was compatible with the P1 P2 parallel formatted interface.


The ones I had were one format or another.  And they had to be strapped 
to the speed of the drive.  I am not sure if the ones I had which had 
one or 2 large boards would keep up with faster than 25ips drives.


They were about 5" high and mounted under the drive, with an option 
switch or two on them.  I did run them with a second tape unit daisy 
chained on the parallel formatted side.


There was no way to run more than a single 3 cable interface.  I've 
never heard of a way to accomplish that with any controller.


The parallel formatted Pertec has unit select, but each drive went to a 
unique connection.  Any drive could be used standalone, as there was no 
A unit / B type unit at all with the Pertec drives, anyway.


thanks
Jim

On 9/25/2017 11:02 PM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:

Well, as others have pointed out, a "tape transport" is not the whole 
ball-of-wax.  You need the ability to format the tape into blocks and then control tape 
motion in terms of those blocks.  That's what you'd be responsible for in your added 
electronics.  From the Introduction in the Kennedy manual:

"The Model 9800 is equipped with the electronics
necessary for reading and writing tapes and for
controlling the tape motion. The head specifications
and the mechanical and electrical tolerances of the
Model 9800 meet the requirements for IBM compatibility.

However, the formatting electronics, parity
generator, cyclic redundancy check character (CRCC)
generator, gap control, etc, are not included and
must be provided by the tape control and formatter
in order to generate properly formatted IBM compatible
tapes."

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders Nelson 
via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 1:41 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

Ah, yeah that's actually better for my purpose. I'm more concerned with the
data interface - can I just read and write bits at will or are there
contingencies as someone mentioned before?

=]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:06 AM Paul Birkel  wrote:


-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders
Nelson via cctalk
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 7:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

Hmmm, interesting. How does the 7970 compare to the Kennedy 9800?:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kennedy-9800-9-Track-Data-Tape-Subsystem/232493086636

For the same price the Kennedy drive looks more beautimous...

=]

--
Anders Nelson

-


http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/kennedy/Kennedy_9800_Digital_Tape_Transport_Operation_and_Maintenance_Manual.pdf

8.5" reels  (not the full size 10.5")


http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90885_7970oper_Dec76.pdf

-

--

--
Anders Nelson
+1 (517) 775-6129
www.erogear.com

RE: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

Well, as others have pointed out, a "tape transport" is not the whole 
ball-of-wax.  You need the ability to format the tape into blocks and then 
control tape motion in terms of those blocks.  That's what you'd be responsible 
for in your added electronics.  From the Introduction in the Kennedy manual:

"The Model 9800 is equipped with the electronics
necessary for reading and writing tapes and for
controlling the tape motion. The head specifications
and the mechanical and electrical tolerances of the
Model 9800 meet the requirements for IBM compatibility.

However, the formatting electronics, parity
generator, cyclic redundancy check character (CRCC)
generator, gap control, etc, are not included and
must be provided by the tape control and formatter
in order to generate properly formatted IBM compatible
tapes."

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders Nelson 
via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 1:41 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

Ah, yeah that's actually better for my purpose. I'm more concerned with the
data interface - can I just read and write bits at will or are there
contingencies as someone mentioned before?

=]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:06 AM Paul Birkel  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders
> Nelson via cctalk
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 7:01 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?
>
> Hmmm, interesting. How does the 7970 compare to the Kennedy 9800?:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kennedy-9800-9-Track-Data-Tape-Subsystem/232493086636
>
> For the same price the Kennedy drive looks more beautimous...
>
> =]
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> -
>
>
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/kennedy/Kennedy_9800_Digital_Tape_Transport_Operation_and_Maintenance_Manual.pdf
>
> 8.5" reels  (not the full size 10.5")
>
>
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90885_7970oper_Dec76.pdf
>
> -
>
> --
--
Anders Nelson
+1 (517) 775-6129
www.erogear.com