Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[tom sparks via cctalk]

On 30/10/17 09:41, Sam O'nella wrote:

I'll add a few more problem specs than answers but the down side of a 
lot of devices is lack of backlit screen so working in a dark space 
can be a problem, 

same issues with e-ink

and I'd be quite interested to see real battery life reviews.




 So many devices that can work only last a few hours on battery. Could 
be age issues but that's what I've accepted as a reason not to collect 
too many handheld devices. Proprietary batteries and most are dead.


Do you want keyboard or is palm like writing acceptable?

Do you mean thumb typing, I can learn that

On the bright side, despite battery age palms are easy to find and 
relatively cheap. Most are at goodwill because of obsolescence not 
because theyre broken.  I find them all the time for $10.

thanks for the 2nd hand shops tip

Re: Looking for Dr. Dobb's Developer Library DVD 6

[Joe Seiwert III via cctalk]

Hello Steve,

Found ur post re: a copy DDJ DVD 6. Wondering if u ever got a response.
Also, I'm looking for an archive of Computer Language. If u know where one
is at be greatful if u can pass along the info.

-- 
Joe Seiwert III
jseiwer...@berkeley.columbia.edu
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jseiwert

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[tom sparks via cctalk]

On 30/10/17 07:38, systems_glitch wrote:
You might check out the Gateway HandBook series -- there's a 286 and 
486 version. I've got the 486 version, it'll run DOS/Win31/Win95 and 
Linux/*BSD distros that support the 486. Suspend/resume is instant, 
there's an internal battery to carry you through battery pack hot 
swaps, and you can gut the old pack and restuff with modern cells. 
I've been meaning to build a USB based pack replacement for mine, 
using one or two 18650 cells, a charge controller, and a load share 
switch IC. Gets around the problem of needing the Gateway charger, 
which mine didn't come with :)


I've got one of the above-mentioned GPD Pocket computers, it's fully 
modern and comes with Windows 10 or Ubuntu. I've got mine running 
Slackware, but I haven't had much time to mess around with it in the 
past few months.


In between the Handbook and the GPD Pocket, there's the Toshiba 
Libretto line. There were a number of models, I've only ever had 
Libretto 110CT machines, which are 233 MHz Pentium-MMX with up to 64 
MB RAM. These run up to Windows 2000 just fine, and do fine with a 
modernish CLI Linux/*BSD (though some distros are starting to drop 
i586, and I've heard some distros will be dropping 32-bit Intel 
altogether soon). Keyboard isn't as good as the Handbook, but it's 
much better than the DOS palmtops I've used.


Thanks,
Jonathan

cant find the Gateway HandBook on ebay :(
if wanted the GPD Pocket i could buy these 
 or  GDP Win

Toshiba Libretto size issues



On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 4:38 PM, tom sparks via cctalk 
> wrote:


On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "tom sparks" >
To: "Mike Stein" >; "General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts" >
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA


On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote:

Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still
used by some writers for the very reason you mention.

m

I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as
could not use
them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem

---

The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the
max ~30KB RAM disk (and file) size can be a limiting factor,

30KB is a limiting factor me, as I dont know how many text files i
want to store

  but like many similar units you transfer files in and out
via built-in utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth
dongle to whatever file system is at the other end including
Android and the other main OSs.

I dont want to bring another computing device with me to act as
storage,
I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I
return or use a "dial-up" connection[^1]


But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can
live with an 8x40 (albeit large and very legible) screen,
there are various modern expansion options available,
including CP/M emulation (under active development).

What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and
legibility, the excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell
battery life; the otherwise identical T102 is a thinner and
lighter version.

the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag (
23 * 16 * 1.5cm)

m
-

[^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path

Re: Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

Chris..  would like any doc scans too please.  ed#

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 Chris Elmquist via cctalk  
wrote:
Give me a day or two and I think I can help you out. I used to work at 
Multi-Tech when the FM300 was still a product. I have several along with 
original schematics, which are "blue prints"...

I have almost as many stories about Multi-Tech as I do ETA ;-)

Chris

On October 29, 2017 1:40:03 PM CDT, Pete Lancashire via cctalk 
 wrote:
>I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could
>figure out the pin-outs
>and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the
>original manual.
>
>Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk
>set.
>
>-pete

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Picked up job at electronic recycling center

[devin davison via cctalk]

I recently picked up a job at an electronic recycling center. Harris
is right around the corner from us, as well as a bunch of technical
schools and aerospace related businesses. All of thier old stuff ends
up at the shop to be resold as surplus or broken down and scrapped.

There tends to be to much to process, and inside space is limited.
Excess equipment is stored outside in tents, and it goes to crap quite
quickly unfortunately. The humidity and rain destroys stuff outside
quickly. I am uncertain of how many requests I will get, but if anyone
is looking for something in particular, please send me an email and I
will keep an eye out for you. The place is a goldmine, and a lot of
nice older gear is going to waste because the store owners do not know
what it is.

Examples of stuff that comes in are old microcomputers like the c64,
nice 486 like machines with good isa cards in them, TONS of HP and
tectronics test equipment, ham radio gear, you name it.
There is a ton of good stuff here, i am trying to find some a good
home before it gets stripped out.
Some of this stuff works fine, the tandy 1000 computer I picked up
this weekend works flawlessly for example. Other things are in a
broken or parts state, but within reach of repair. There is a lot of
new gear there as well, not many machines come in with nice graphics
cards in them, but tons of workstations with lots of ram and hard
drives are common. We get so many servers they are broken down almost
immediately unless they are particularly new or unique in some way.

Lets see how busy my inbox gets, if you are in need of something,
please send me an email, i can keep an eye out for it and hopefully be
of service.I work on Saturdays, that is the day i will be on site to
look for things.

Stuff will be priced as surplus/used. Hopefully i  can be of use and
keep some of this stuff out of the scrap pile.

--Devin

Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

Karen Lewis felt Stanford  was the place they should go... 

ed#

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 Steven M Jones via cctalk  
wrote:
General comment to several earlier replies re: Bitsavers-type efforts.

The tragedy here is not that some copies of uncommon but otherwise
extant product documentation were lost. From the description, there were
a large number of unique, individual documents created by significant
historical figures. Fair bet that many of these didn't exist anywhere
else. Certainly not if it included drafts of speeches and
correspondence, as well as the final copy, etc.

A better question (not that it does any good to ask it now) is why this
stuff wasn't in the hands of university conservators or similar. I love
bitsavers and warchive.org, but this is a level beyond what they
typically focus on. (And to be sure, CHM would have at least kept such
artifacts safe even if they couldn't do anything with them for a few
years/decades.)

Sigh. And I don't really mean to criticize anybody at Keysight, humans
are generally bad at recognizing and planning for this kind of
contingency - and I'm probably worst than most...

--S.

Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Steven M Jones via cctalk]

General comment to several earlier replies re: Bitsavers-type efforts.

The tragedy here is not that some copies of uncommon but otherwise
extant product documentation were lost. From the description, there were
a large number of unique, individual documents created by significant
historical figures. Fair bet that many of these didn't exist anywhere
else. Certainly not if it included drafts of speeches and
correspondence, as well as the final copy, etc.

A better question (not that it does any good to ask it now) is why this
stuff wasn't in the hands of university conservators or similar. I love
bitsavers and warchive.org, but this is a level beyond what they
typically focus on. (And to be sure, CHM would have at least kept such
artifacts safe even if they couldn't do anything with them for a few
years/decades.)

Sigh. And I don't really mean to criticize anybody at Keysight, humans
are generally bad at recognizing and planning for this kind of
contingency - and I'm probably worst than most...

--S.

RE: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Kevin Parker via cctalk]

Sorry wasn't aware of the operational aspects of bitsavers or how stuff finds 
it's a way in there (although I just had a good read of it all).

But having said that, it looks like this collection perished without finding 
its way to bitsavers so it’s not so much where its stored  - it’s the act of 
collecting the paper and scanning it in. 

If I scan stuff can I add it or get it added to BitSavers  - I'm not sure 
because there's a notice on their web site (and I'm certainly not decrying 
their efforts - its highly valued resource intensive work):

"Due to the current several year backlog of documents to process, we are not 
actively soliciting additional paper or scans to add to the collection"

(Not sure if I can do anything but I might send them an offer of help.)


Kevin Parker



-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via 
cctalk
Sent: Monday, 30 October 2017 11:14
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and 
David Packard



On 10/29/17 4:59 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote:
> Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning 
> and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist.

What a brilliant idea. We could call it "bitsavers"!

Re: Post scanned documents to multiple sites - Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2017-10-29 8:26 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote:
> I suggest creating a free github.com  account with a
> public repository.  This way whenever someone forks or clones the repo
> they get a full local copy with one command...”git clone”.  
> 
> Get enough people and you’ll never worry about losing the archive and
> it’s all for free.  If github goes away everyone still has a complete
> copy which  can be uploaded to the next great service that comes along.

Only if they had the foresight both to clone it, and keep it up to date,
meaning they need all the resources/space/bandwidth to do so (and then
it would STILL be a private, disconnected copy; so no use to anyone ELSE).

--Toby

>  It’s a semi-decentralized and distributed archive.
> 
> We are doing this with the Model II archive
> at https://github.com/pski/model2archive

Re: Post scanned documents to multiple sites - Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Peter Cetinski via cctalk]

I suggest creating a free github.com account with a public repository.  This 
way whenever someone forks or clones the repo they get a full local copy with 
one command...”git clone”.  

Get enough people and you’ll never worry about losing the archive and it’s all 
for free.  If github goes away everyone still has a complete copy which  can be 
uploaded to the next great service that comes along.  It’s a semi-decentralized 
and distributed archive.

We are doing this with the Model II archive at 
https://github.com/pski/model2archive

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

I'll be happy to give away my Palm collection to anyone who will pay
shipping from Austin, TX, USA.

No, they don't work :-)  But there's a Palm original, Palm III, and
Palm VII.

(and yeah, I would, uh, kinda have to find them.)

The only thing I would ask in return is if you get them going, please
do a factory reset.  I assume they still have my data.

mcl

Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/29/17 4:59 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote:
> Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning 
> and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist.

What a brilliant idea. We could call it "bitsavers"!

Post scanned documents to multiple sites - Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2017-10-29 7:48 PM, David Collins via cctalk wrote:
> Completely agree. I’m in the process of scanning additional product manuals 
> that haven’t made it into the HP Computer Museum’s site yet. 
> 
> Any of us with websites could have some reason to stop doing this good work 
> at any time so duplicated info across a few sites is an important risk 
> reduction item!

+100

However I'm only aware of one site that currently accepts scanned
submissions: Internet Archive.

If there are any others please mention.

--Toby


> 
> David Collins
> HP Computer Museum
> 
>> On 30 Oct 2017, at 8:43 am, Ed via cctalk  wrote:
>>
>>
>> The Tubbs fire  consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and 
>> David Packard, the tech  pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company 
>> in a 
>> Palo Alto garage with  $538 in cash. 
>> More  than 100 boxes of the two men’s writings, correspondence, speeches 
>> and other  items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned 
>> to 
>> the ground  at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. 
>> Keysight, the  world’s largest electronics measurement company, traces its 
>> roots to HP and  acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split 
>> from 
>> Agilent  Technologies — itself an HP spinoff. 
>>
>> http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G 
>> (My added note)   And this is  why I continue to stress  multiple 
>> caches of  copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this  
>> case 
>> here is  someone that  could have footed the bill and not missed the  money 
>> to  
>> do it.  
>> Ed#  Archivist  for SMECC
> 

RE: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Kevin Parker via cctalk]

Very sad when I hear stories like this and I'm not precluding the people who 
were directly affected by this - I'm located in Australia and while bushfires 
are a fact of life here, they're still devastating.

Just going to toss an idea out there - have no idea how this might work but 
thought I'd toss it out there.

It seems with the internet that crowd-sourcing is way of resourcing things. 
Maybe we (that's us on this list) need to apply this concept to the scanning 
and archiving and retention of any paper based repositories that still exist. 
I'll call it crowd-scanning for the time being.


Kevin Parker


-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed via cctalk
Sent: Monday, 30 October 2017 08:44
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and 
David Packard

 
The Tubbs fire  consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David 
Packard, the tech  pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in a Palo 
Alto garage with  $538 in cash. 
More  than 100 boxes of the two men’s writings, correspondence, speeches and 
other  items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to the 
ground  at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. 
Keysight, the  world’s largest electronics measurement company, traces its 
roots to HP and  acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from 
Agilent  Technologies — itself an HP spinoff. 

http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G 
(My added note)   And this is  why I continue to stress  multiple 
caches of  copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this  case 
here is  someone that  could have footed the bill and not missed the  money to 
do it.  
Ed#  Archivist  for SMECC

Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[David Collins via cctalk]

Completely agree. I’m in the process of scanning additional product manuals 
that haven’t made it into the HP Computer Museum’s site yet. 

Any of us with websites could have some reason to stop doing this good work at 
any time so duplicated info across a few sites is an important risk reduction 
item!

David Collins
HP Computer Museum

> On 30 Oct 2017, at 8:43 am, Ed via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> 
> The Tubbs fire  consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and 
> David Packard, the tech  pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company 
> in a 
> Palo Alto garage with  $538 in cash. 
> More  than 100 boxes of the two men’s writings, correspondence, speeches 
> and other  items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned 
> to 
> the ground  at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. 
> Keysight, the  world’s largest electronics measurement company, traces its 
> roots to HP and  acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split 
> from 
> Agilent  Technologies — itself an HP spinoff. 
> 
> http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G 
> (My added note)   And this is  why I continue to stress  multiple 
> caches of  copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this  case 
> here is  someone that  could have footed the bill and not missed the  money 
> to  
> do it.  
> Ed#  Archivist  for SMECC

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

I'll add a few more problem specs than answers but the down side of a lot of 
devices is lack of backlit screen so working in a dark space can be a problem, 
and I'd be quite interested to see real battery life reviews. 
 So many devices that can work only last a few hours on battery. Could be age 
issues but that's what I've accepted as a reason not to collect too many 
handheld devices. Proprietary batteries and most are dead.
Do you want keyboard or is palm like writing acceptable? On the bright side, 
despite battery age palms are easy to find and relatively cheap. Most are at 
goodwill because of obsolescence not because theyre broken.  I find them all 
the time for $10.
null

Re: Picked up tandy 1000 TX

[devin davison via cctalk]

Located in Vero Beach Florida.

I was able to boot an old toshiba utility disk i had laying around
that is 720K. I have tried to make a couple of dos boot disks but have
not had any luck getting it booted. it appears to be functional, but i
need to get a proper boot disk made before i send it off. Pictures to
follow soon. I am taking the machine apart to take inventory and find
out the model numbers on the drives.

--devin

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Kevin Parker  wrote:
> Where are you located
>
> Kevin Parker
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin 
> davison via cctalk
> Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 10:37
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX
>
> I picked up a tandy 1000 TX with a color CM 11 monitor. Both are in the 
> original boxes with keyboard,monitor and the printer cable. It powers on but 
> i can not seem to get it to boot from the floppy drive.
> Ive tried writing 720K boot disks from my windows computer but it is still 
> not booting. Some better pictures to follow soon.
>
> I do not particularly need such a machine, and am open to trade or offers. If 
> no one wants it perhaps it can be put to use as a BBS or something packet 
> radio related over here. Also, the boxes both had us goverment stickers on 
> them, kinda intersting.
>
> https://s20.postimg.org/fr7iox7kt/image3.jpg
>
> --Devin
>

Re: HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

> On 29 Oct 2017, at 17:14, Jim Brain via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> In case anyone has a fondness for niche tech...
> 
> At VCF-SE this year, the TI folks had a great exhibit, and perusing it I saw 
> an unfamiliar machine, the TI CC-40 (Compact Computer-40).  While I was 
> investigating, the exhibitor (MillipedeMan aka Mark), told me the machines 
> were frustrating to use, as TI only supported one communications method on 
> the unit, a proprietary protocol called HexBus, and produced very low 
> quantities of very few peripherals that work on the bus. Most frustratingly, 
> they never producing a mass storage device in any appreciable quantity, and 
> there was no other way to save programs written on the unit.
> 
> Mark did note there was an eBay seller liquidating units, so I bought a 2 
> unit combo from eBay before I left the show.
> 
> Sadly, Summer happened, but I was finally able to get to the unit, and 
> started working on an SD-based mass storage device for the unit.  It was an 
> interesting journey to learn a new protocol.
> 
> The (development in progress) result is HEX-TI-r, the HexBus SD drive:
> 
> GitHub source code is here: https://github.com/go4retro/HEXTIr
> 
> Video of unit operating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5ahVCRdvM
> 
> I don't have a project page up yet, but will work on that.

Wow! Many years ago I bought a CC-40 on ebay for pennies, boxed NOS. I forgot 
about it for over a decade and found it again recently looking for other 
things, this could be an excuse to get it out and see if it still works :)

Cheers,

—
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 08:43:36PM -, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> > via cctalk
[...]
> > 
> > Doesn't randomly crash.
> > Doesn't get viruses
> > Doesn't have licence agreements

Also: no ransomware.

> These devices are not without problems...
> 
> If I use a Pen the ink leaks all over my shirt, 

> I switched to a clutch pencil and when I dropped it all the leads broke...

I have been using ballpen a lot. Problem was, when original ink holder
ran out, the replacements I could buy were of mediocore quality. So I
optimised and now go with disposables - like Stabilo. Also, Bic, if I
have chance. Or anything from that shelve, I am not purist.

As of ink leaks, perhaps holding pen in some hardened case would do?
Maybe together with notepad?

> .. the pad has limited capacity, and like an iPad is very
> susceptible to fluid damage and having little monetary value I have
> been known to leave it on the train/bus/plain and when I do I can't
> remotely erase the critical data on it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Undeciphered_historical_codes_and_ciphers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptonomicon#Pontifex_Cipher

Those too have limitations, but should be above the height of average
pickpocket/passerby. One of the limitations is, one requires quite a
bit of practice to do them in memory.

OTOH, when applied to short sequences of words, should be quite
strong, from what I have read.

When memorizing sequence of digits on paper, I could write a sentence
of words of proper length, or have many words of diffent length all
over the page and memorize the place of those which I need (just
guessing, will have to try it one day).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

RE: Picked up tandy 1000 TX

[Kevin Parker via cctalk]

Where are you located

Kevin Parker

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin davison 
via cctalk
Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 10:37
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
Subject: Picked up tandy 1000 TX

I picked up a tandy 1000 TX with a color CM 11 monitor. Both are in the 
original boxes with keyboard,monitor and the printer cable. It powers on but i 
can not seem to get it to boot from the floppy drive.
Ive tried writing 720K boot disks from my windows computer but it is still not 
booting. Some better pictures to follow soon.

I do not particularly need such a machine, and am open to trade or offers. If 
no one wants it perhaps it can be put to use as a BBS or something packet radio 
related over here. Also, the boxes both had us goverment stickers on them, 
kinda intersting.

https://s20.postimg.org/fr7iox7kt/image3.jpg

--Devin

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

> the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 * 
> 1.5cm)
--
Definitely a deal breaker ;-)

But yes, without a memory expansion of some sort the limited RAM size can be 
frustrating; if you don't mind smaller text sizes or shorter battery life then 
there are many alternatives, both vintage and modern.

m
  - Original Message - 
  From: tom sparks 
  To: Mike Stein ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
  Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 4:38 PM
  Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA


  On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote:


- Original Message - 
From: "tom sparks" 
To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA


On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote:

Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for 
the very reason you mention.

m
I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use 
them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem
--- 

The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB RAM disk 
(and file) size can be a limiting factor,30KB is a limiting factor me, as I 
dont know how many text files i want to store


 but like many similar units you transfer files in and out via built-in 
utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth dongle to whatever file system 
is at the other end including Android and the other main OSs.I dont want to 
bring another computing device with me to act as storage,
  I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or use a 
"dial-up" connection[^1]


But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an 8x40 
(albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern expansion 
options available, including CP/M emulation (under active development).

What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, the 
excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise identical 
T102 is a thinner and lighter version.
the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 * 
1.5cm)


m
- 

[^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Lawrence Woodman via cctalk" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA


> 
> 
> On 29/10/17 15:22, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
>> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers 
>> for the very reason you mention.
>>
>> m
>>
>> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:
>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes
>> when I
>> am away from my computer

> 
> I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100. 
> The Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold 
> new in box.
> 
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88
> 
> Lorry

Well, as I said if you don't mind smaller text and buying a slightly larger bag 
there are quite a few pretty nice word processors out there, and most of them 
have either RS232, USB or wireless transfer capability built in. If you're 
lucky you might even find one with its own bag ;-)

For example there's the NTS Dream Writer series; e.g.:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NTS-Computer-DreamWriter-T400-IR-Word-Processor-TESTED-/380218171277

or the Alphasmarts; e.g.:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Lot-2-AlphaSmart-Dana-Portable-Word-Processor/222696441392?hash=item33d9be0630:g:OggAAOSwH09ZKavH

(No connection to seller)

m

Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard

[Ed via cctalk]

 
The Tubbs fire  consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and 
David Packard, the tech  pioneers who in 1938 formed an electronics company in 
a 
Palo Alto garage with  $538 in cash. 
More  than 100 boxes of the two men’s writings, correspondence, speeches 
and other  items were contained in one of two modular buildings that burned to 
the ground  at the Fountaingrove headquarters of Keysight Technologies. 
Keysight, the  world’s largest electronics measurement company, traces its 
roots to HP and  acquired the archives in 2014 when its business was split from 
Agilent  Technologies — itself an HP spinoff. 

http://bit.ly/2yd6Z2G 
(My added note)   And this is  why I continue to stress  multiple 
caches of  copies/scans of historical material... and sad... as in this  case 
here is  someone that  could have footed the bill and not missed the  money to  
do it.  
Ed#  Archivist  for SMECC

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/28/2017 09:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech wrote:

IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964.
They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a
computer to simulate a different computer.
Maurice V. Wilkes wrote a paper in 1951 defining 
microprogramming. IBM was not the first company to build 
machines using the technique.  They did make microcode 
mainstream technology with the 360, however.


Jon

Look to get a copy of a Multi-Tech FM300 Modem manual

[Pete Lancashire via cctalk]

I've acquired a Multi-Tech FM300 acoustic modem and even though I could
figure out the pin-outs
and switch settings, it would be great if I could get a copy of the
original manual.

Goal is to add it to a Teletype 33 or 35 and a Bell System 500 desk set.

-pete

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[tom sparks via cctalk]

On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote:


Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for 
the very reason you mention.

m
I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use 
them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem




- Original Message -
From: "tom sparks via cctalk" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA




On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:

I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes
when I
am away from my computer

Hi Tom.

Welcome to 1997. :-)



the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion
5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good
options,
but i read about the hinge/screen issues

I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting
accessories,
but it has more things to break

but I am wounding about other options?

"Wondering"? :-)


Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200,
Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful.
The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along
with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and
screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes.

For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android
smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I
need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the
"Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an
offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has
good options.

I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no
videos, no mp3s, etc),
long battery life (40+ hours),
easy replaceable batteries

PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[tom sparks via cctalk]

On 30/10/17 04:14, Mike Stein wrote:


- Original Message -
From: "tom sparks" 
To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA



On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote:


Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for 
the very reason you mention.

m

I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use
them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem

---

The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB RAM disk 
(and file) size can be a limiting factor,
30KB is a limiting factor me, as I dont know how many text files i want 
to store



  but like many similar units you transfer files in and out via built-in 
utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 bluetooth dongle to whatever file system 
is at the other end including Android and the other main OSs.

I dont want to bring another computing device with me to act as storage,
I want download all the data before I go and upload it when I return or 
use a "dial-up" connection[^1]


But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an 8x40 
(albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern expansion 
options available, including CP/M emulation (under active development).

What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, the 
excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise identical 
T102 is a thinner and lighter version.
the final nail in the coffin for m100 is the size of my go bag ( 23 * 16 
* 1.5cm)



m
-


[^1]: I am really unsure if I want to go down the TCP/IP path

RE: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> via cctalk
> Sent: 29 October 2017 20:15
> To: Tomasz Rola ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts 
> Cc: tom sparks 
> Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA
> 
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk
>  wrote:
> 
> > - no moving parts
> > - keeps working on zero volts with no problem
> > - no proprietary unrepairable circuits
> > - no worry that rohs-no-lead solder breaks
> > - no manual required
> > - repairs can be done anywhere, cheaply
> > - expansion can be done anywhere, cheaply, as long as there is
> >   stationery nearby
> > - mods can be done, and require only very few manual skills ... and
> > more...
> 
> Doesn't randomly crash.
> Doesn't get viruses
> Doesn't have licence agreements

These devices are not without problems...

If I use a Pen the ink leaks all over my shirt, 
I switched to a clutch pencil and when I dropped it all the leads broke...
.. the pad has limited capacity, and like an iPad is very susceptible to fluid 
damage and having little monetary value I have been known to leave it on the 
train/bus/plain and when I do I can't remotely erase the critical data on it... 


> 
> [...]
> 
> > In case you have not guessed yet:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > If you wonder, yes, I have the paper notebook, two even (but I think I
> 
> Ah... A Paper Aided Design system, also known as a PAD (of paper).
> 

Or a BookBook...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0

> I use one all the time...
> 
> -tony

Dave

Re: VR150

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 10/29/2017 11:44 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
>> Anybody looking for one?
>> Free for pickup, 80433 colorado
>
> That's a 150VDC (octal base) voltage regulator tube?

That was my first thought too (the good old OD3)

I had hoped there was a UK RAF valve with that number (VR meaning
'Valve, Receiving')
but alas there doesn't seem to have been one.

-tony

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk
 wrote:

> - no moving parts
> - keeps working on zero volts with no problem
> - no proprietary unrepairable circuits
> - no worry that rohs-no-lead solder breaks
> - no manual required
> - repairs can be done anywhere, cheaply
> - expansion can be done anywhere, cheaply, as long as there is
>   stationery nearby
> - mods can be done, and require only very few manual skills
> ... and more...

Doesn't randomly crash.
Doesn't get viruses
Doesn't have licence agreements

[...]

> In case you have not guessed yet:

[...]

> If you wonder, yes, I have the paper notebook, two even (but I think I

Ah... A Paper Aided Design system, also known as a PAD
(of paper).

I use one all the time...

-tony

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 08:03:31PM +1000, tom sparks via cctalk wrote:
> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes
> when I am away from my computer
> 
> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and
> [Psion 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like
> good options,
> but i read about the hinge/screen issues
> 
> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting
> accessories,
> but it has more things to break
> 
> but I am wounding about other options?

I was looking down that road and recognised what was there at the end
of it, and decided I want something else.

The way I understand it is, basically, those are proprietary
unmaintanaible units - designed for "sell and replace when broken",
maybe not as much as modern designs, but still. Getting old rather
fast. Not much options to have one's own OS on it. Not much options to
have any additional software on it - old websites died off, people
sometimes followed, sometimes went on or retired. Hence, not much
options to ask questions when I get stuck. No manuals, AFAICS.

Surface mounted electronics have not encouraged me either - albeit I
can see increasing number of DIY folks who can solder this in and out.

As of additional suggestions, some people sweared by their Palm Pilots
and later Palms.

But it boils down to buying used hw, no guarantee, and taking it with
you, jumping, shagging, pressing as you go. I would be afraid of it
dying anytime. It might last next twenty years, but this cannot be
counted on. Thus if I developed habit to depend on it, I would have to
keep alternative habit ready to depend on, too. And if so, going
straight for alternative habit would seem much more rational, wouldn't
it?

Thus I choose the alternative. Positives:

- no moving parts
- keeps working on zero volts with no problem
- no proprietary unrepairable circuits
- no worry that rohs-no-lead solder breaks
- no manual required
- repairs can be done anywhere, cheaply
- expansion can be done anywhere, cheaply, as long as there is
  stationery nearby
- mods can be done, and require only very few manual skills
... and more...

I realize my advice is a bit orthogonal to the letter and spirit of
this group, but when I choose something, I try to be serious about
it. So either the above way, or I would have to buy few more
replacements and serve as my own repair shop (time sink alert! money
sink alert!), but without manuals and fearing that there might be a
proprietary connector broken, which can be bought and transferred from
a country ten thousands km away (provided I can name it properly, so
it could be found), which might be ok if I made more shopping, but for
just one plastic part is rather excessive, which sends me back to my
selected alternative.

In case you have not guessed yet:

https://www.pinterest.com/explore/creative-journal/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/454230312408028784/

https://www.pinterest.com/explore/organisation-ideas-planners/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/301319031309050764/

https://www.pinterest.com/explore/bullet-journal/

https://www.pinterest.com/explore/sketch-journal/

If you wonder, yes, I have the paper notebook, two even (but I think I
would be joining them in a future - scissors, glue and more
paper). Not as creative as the ones on pinterest (some of those are
probably more "show" than "practical"), but I am slowly inventing my
own way of doing it. Preying on the web to see how other people do
this, from time to time.

HTH

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: VR150

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

Can I pay for shipping?

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 1:44 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anybody looking for one?
> Free for pickup, 80433 colorado
>

RE: VR150

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
> via cctalk
> Sent: 29 October 2017 18:51
> To: emanuel stiebler via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: VR150
> 
> On 10/29/2017 11:44 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> > Anybody looking for one?
> > Free for pickup, 80433 colorado
> 
> That's a 150VDC (octal base) voltage regulator tube?
> 


I suspect it is a DEC monochrome monitor.

Regards

Rob

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

Folks,
 Well I have now found one of Crispin Rope and Mark Priestly's papers on
ENIAC

http://eniacinaction.com/docs/AddressableAccumulators.pdf

It says

"ENIAC's original control method was modified in 1948, after which point its
wires and switches were left mostly untouched while it ran only a single
(but slowly evolving) program: a microcoded interpreter for a virtual von
Neumann architecture machine."

And 

"ENIAC's application programs were written as a series of two digit
instruction codes for this virtual machine and loaded into its read-only
function table memory by turning knobs to set digits."

I would therefore argue that "emulation" is as old as computing itself...

Dave Wade
G4UGM


> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Wade [mailto:dave.g4...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 29 October 2017 15:54
> To: 'Paul Koning' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts' 
> Subject: RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> > Koning via cctalk
> > Sent: 29 October 2017 12:42
> > To: Eric Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic
> > Posts 
> > Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech
> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in
> > 1964.
> > > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode
> > > on a computer to simulate a different computer.
> >
> 
> I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept
> Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing.
> Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was
a
> Turing machine that could emulate or simulate the behaviour of any
arbitrary
> Turing machine...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine
> 
> .. and somewhat later when ENIAC was re-wired to execute programs stored
> in the function switchs, this was a partial simulation/emulation of EDSAC
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC#Improvements
> 
> well that's what Crispin Rope asserts, but his book is still copyright and
I can't
> find any reference to this on the net,,
> 
> 
> > That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of
> emulation,
> > done using a particular implementation approach.  At least for some of
> > the emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401
emulator.
> IBM
> > didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model
> > 44, to emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code.
> >
> > It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation.  It
> seems
> > likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular
> > choice of implementation techniques.
> >
> >
> > > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does
> > > not meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors
> > > have only general-purpose hardware and microcode.
> > >
> > > Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've
> > > just pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects
> > > invented it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition.
> >
> > "emulation" is just a standard English word.  I don't see a good
> > reason to
> limit
> > its application here to a specific intepretation given to it in a
> particular IBM
> > product.  It's not as if IBM's terminology is necessarily the
> > predominant
> one
> > in IT (consider "data set").  And in particular, as was pointed out
> before,
> > "emulator" has a quite specific (and different) meaning in the 1980s
> through
> > 2000 or so in microprocessor development hardware.
> >
> > paul
> Dave

Re: VR150

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/2017 11:44 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> Anybody looking for one?
> Free for pickup, 80433 colorado

That's a 150VDC (octal base) voltage regulator tube?

--Chuck

VR150

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

Anybody looking for one?
Free for pickup, 80433 colorado

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 29 October 2017 at 16:53, Lawrence Woodman via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100.  The
> Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold new in
> box.
>
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88

A fair point. I have one. I must send it off to Rakewell and get it
upgraded and maxed out. I think they can take 512 kB of RAM now, and
there are Flash media with a meg on.

http://www.rakewell.com/z88/z88.shtml

The OS, OZ, is still in development, remarkably.

https://sourceforge.net/p/z88/news/2016/12/cambridge-z88-rom-v47-released/

The big snag is still that it's relatively hard to get files /off/ the
things and into a modern computer.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jon Elson

> I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode

No, it didn't; in part because it pre-dated fast, cheap ROMs (the development
of which was a considerable task in the /360 project - the wonderful "IBM's
360 and Early 370 Systems" covers this is some detail). The KA10 is built out
of FLIP CHIPs which carried individual transistors.

Another fun KA10 fact: it used 'hardware subroutines' - i.e. a clock pulse
would get to a certain point, and get conditionally diverted through some
other circuitry, later to come back and continue where it left off. Whee!

Noel

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Jon Elson wrote:
> I'm not sure the original DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the
> KI-10 did.

As far as I understand, the PDP-6 (type 166), KA10, and KI10 were
hardwired.  KL10 and KS10 were microcoded.  The Foonly F1 preceeded and
influenced the KL10 design.

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "tom sparks" 
To: "Mike Stein" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA


> On 30/10/17 01:22, Mike Stein wrote:
> 
>> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers 
>> for the very reason you mention.
>>
>> m
> I did look at M100 and clones, but I ruled them out, as could not use 
> them without extra hardware to get some DOS-like filesystem
--- 

The internal file system isn't an issue for most people; the max ~30KB RAM disk 
(and file) size can be a limiting factor, but like many similar units you 
transfer files in and out via built-in utilities and an RS232 cable or $10.00 
bluetooth dongle to whatever file system is at the other end including Android 
and the other main OSs.

But as you mentioned, if you otherwise like the unit and can live with an 8x40 
(albeit large and very legible) screen, there are various modern expansion 
options available, including CP/M emulation (under active development).

What makes it still a popular unit are the character size and legibility, the 
excellent keyboard and the long 4xAA cell battery life; the otherwise identical 
T102 is a thinner and lighter version.

m
- 

>> - Original Message -
>> From: "tom sparks via cctalk" 
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>> 
>> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:
>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes
>> when I
>> am away from my computer
 Hi Tom.

 Welcome to 1997. :-)


>> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion
>> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good
>> options,
>> but i read about the hinge/screen issues
>>
>> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting
>> accessories,
>> but it has more things to break
>>
>> but I am wounding about other options?
> "Wondering"? :-)

 Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200,
 Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful.
 The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along
 with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and
 screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes.

 For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android
 smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I
 need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the
 "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an
 offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has
 good options.
>>> I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no
>>> videos, no mp3s, etc),
>>> long battery life (40+ hours),
>>> easy replaceable batteries
>>>
>>> PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also
>

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/29/2017 07:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech  
wrote:

IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964.
They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a
computer to simulate a different computer.

That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of emulation, 
done using a particular implementation approach.  At least for some of the 
emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator.  IBM 
didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model 44, to 
emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code.
Except for certain machines (360/44, 360/91-95 series, model 
195) all other 360's were also emulated by microcode.
there really was no difference in running 360 code or 1401 
code on a 360 system, they were both done by microcode 
emulation.


The 360/44 had no control store, so any emulation/simulation 
had to be done by a program written in 360 instructions.
The 360/44 was a hardwired 360.  Note that while the 360 was 
a 32-bit instruction set, the 360/30 had only an 8-bit data 
path, and the 360/40 had only a 16-bit data path.

It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation.  It seems 
likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular choice of 
implementation techniques.



Yes, there were others.  Burroughs and Univac also used 
microcode at about the same time.  I'm not sure the original 
DEC PDP-10 (KA-10) used microcode, but the KI-10 did.


Jon

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/28/2017 08:55 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:

On 10/27/2017 1:46 PM, ben via cctech wrote:

On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote:


With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components,
so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them
because that is not a NEW selling feature any more. Also logic
cells don't have asynchronous  set and clear anymore.

Ben.


I suppose, though writing a little HDL to provide the function of a TTL
gate isn't very hard.
Xilinx ise package provides a library of hundreds of 74xx 
TTL parts in schematic form, with VHDL code to provide the 
same functionality.  So, you can make up a schematic with 
74xx TTL parts, and then it instantiates the VHDL behavioral 
description of the part.  One could easily extract the VHDL 
from their library.


Jon

HEXTIr - TI HexBus SD Drive

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

In case anyone has a fondness for niche tech...

At VCF-SE this year, the TI folks had a great exhibit, and perusing it I 
saw an unfamiliar machine, the TI CC-40 (Compact Computer-40).  While I 
was investigating, the exhibitor (MillipedeMan aka Mark), told me the 
machines were frustrating to use, as TI only supported one 
communications method on the unit, a proprietary protocol called HexBus, 
and produced very low quantities of very few peripherals that work on 
the bus. Most frustratingly, they never producing a mass storage device 
in any appreciable quantity, and there was no other way to save programs 
written on the unit.


Mark did note there was an eBay seller liquidating units, so I bought a 
2 unit combo from eBay before I left the show.


Sadly, Summer happened, but I was finally able to get to the unit, and 
started working on an SD-based mass storage device for the unit.  It was 
an interesting journey to learn a new protocol.


The (development in progress) result is HEX-TI-r, the HexBus SD drive:

GitHub source code is here: https://github.com/go4retro/HEXTIr

Video of unit operating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5ahVCRdvM

I don't have a project page up yet, but will work on that.

Jim

--

Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Mark Wickens via cctalk]

I'd second the Z88. A lot of people get put off by the keyboard but it
actually works really well, and I'm a proper mechanical keyboard snob. You
get can a proper turn of speed up on it.

Mark

On 29 Oct 2017 4:04 p.m., "Lawrence Woodman via cctalk" <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:



On 29/10/17 15:22, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

> Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some
> writers for the very reason you mention.
>
> m
>
> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:
>
>> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes
> when I
> am away from my computer
>

>>>
I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100.
The Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold new
in box.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88

Lorry

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Lawrence Woodman via cctalk]

On 29/10/17 15:22, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for 
the very reason you mention.

m

On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:

I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes
when I
am away from my computer




I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100.  
The Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold 
new in box.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88

Lorry

RE: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning via cctalk
> Sent: 29 October 2017 12:42
> To: Eric Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?
> 
> 
> > On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech

> wrote:
> >
> > IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in
> 1964.
> > They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on
> > a computer to simulate a different computer.
> 

I am not sure they invented computer emulation. I think that the concept
Emulation/Simulation is as old as, or perhaps even older than computing.
Whilst it was a pure concept Alan Turing's "Universal Turing Machine" was a
Turing machine that could emulate or simulate the behaviour of any arbitrary
Turing machine...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine

.. and somewhat later when ENIAC was re-wired to execute programs stored in
the function switchs, this was a partial simulation/emulation of EDSAC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC#Improvements

well that's what Crispin Rope asserts, but his book is still copyright and I
can't find any reference to this on the net,,


> That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of
emulation,
> done using a particular implementation approach.  At least for some of the
> emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator.
IBM
> didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model 44, to
> emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code.
> 
> It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation.  It
seems
> likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular choice of
> implementation techniques.
> 
> 
> > Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does
> > not meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors
> > have only general-purpose hardware and microcode.
> >
> > Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just
> > pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented
> > it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition.
> 
> "emulation" is just a standard English word.  I don't see a good reason to
limit
> its application here to a specific intepretation given to it in a
particular IBM
> product.  It's not as if IBM's terminology is necessarily the predominant
one
> in IT (consider "data set").  And in particular, as was pointed out
before,
> "emulator" has a quite specific (and different) meaning in the 1980s
through
> 2000 or so in microprocessor development hardware.
> 
>   paul
Dave

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

An old kerfuffle over terms.

Speaking for myself, I use "emulate" when it involves human
characteristics.  "I seek to emulate Abraham Lincoln".

"Simulate" is probably a better term to use for inanimate objects.

I've never liked the e-word when used in connection with computers--but
I'm a traditionalist.


--Chuck

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Radio Shack M100 (if you've got a large pocket); still used by some writers for 
the very reason you mention.

m

- Original Message - 
From: "tom sparks via cctalk" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA


> 
> 
> On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:
 I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes 
 when I
 am away from my computer
>>
>> Hi Tom.
>>
>> Welcome to 1997. :-)
>>
>>
 the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion
 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good 
 options,
 but i read about the hinge/screen issues

 I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting
 accessories,
 but it has more things to break

 but I am wounding about other options?
>>>
>>> "Wondering"? :-)
>>
>>
>> Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, 
>> Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. 
>> The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along 
>> with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and 
>> screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes.
>>
>> For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android 
>> smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I 
>> need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the 
>> "Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an 
>> offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has 
>> good options.
> I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no 
> videos, no mp3s, etc),
> long battery life (40+ hours),
> easy replaceable batteries
> 
> PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also

Re: NEC 4164-12

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Ray also has similar reference charts for 4116 & 41256 type chips on his most 
excellent (PC-centric) site :

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4116.htm
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/41256.htm

m

- Original Message - 
From: "dwight via cctalk" 
To: "Chuck Guzis" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12


Nice chart Chuck.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:19:53 PM
To: dwight via cctalk
Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12

On 10/28/2017 10:14 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> One caution for 4164s. When they first came out, there were some that were 
> 256 cycle refresh and others that were 128 cycle.
>
> There is no way by looking at them to tell which is which other than getting 
> a matching original manufacture document.
>
> Many machines expect 128 cycle. You can use 256 cycle on chips designed for 
> 128 but not the other way around.
>
> Most Z80 setups only do 128 unless it has additional hardware to handle the 
> extra bit ( not to likely ).
>

There's a great chart of the 4164s and their characteristics here:

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm

NEC 4164 use 128 cycle refresh, but so do many others.

--Chuck

Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[tom sparks via cctalk]

On 29/10/17 06:01, Evan Koblentz wrote:
I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes 
when I

am away from my computer


Hi Tom.

Welcome to 1997. :-)



the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion
5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good 
options,

but i read about the hinge/screen issues

I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting
accessories,
but it has more things to break

but I am wounding about other options?


"Wondering"? :-)



Tom - Here's the dilemma. The pocket-sized DOS computers (HP-200, 
Atari Portfolio, etc.) are too small for their keyboards to be useful. 
The larger ones (all the Windows CE stuff that Liam mentioned, along 
with the awesome Psion Series 7/Psion Netbook) have good keyboards and 
screens, but they're fragile and kind of exotic for modern purposes.


For me, the solution is modern produts. I use a high-end Android 
smartphone and a low-end Chromebook. Either one is excellent when I 
need a quick/simple note-taking device. With the phone I use the 
"Google Keep" app for quite notes/lists. With the Chromebook I use an 
offline app just called "Text" because it's extremely fast and has 
good options.
I want something that has anti-procrastinate features (no internet, no 
videos, no mp3s, etc),

long battery life (40+ hours),
easy replaceable batteries

PS: I am adding it to my "off-line" gobag also

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 10/28/2017 9:09 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in
> 1964. They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode
> on a computer to simulate a different computer.
> 
> Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not
> meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors have
> only general-purpose hardware and microcode.
> 
> Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just
> pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented
> it, I see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition.
> 

Well, I can think of a few.   From spending some time today with the IBM
360 catalog of programs for Model 25 and above (GC20-1619-8), IBM was
not entirely consistent with their terminology.

First of all, a lot of the products/applications that they called
emulators were in fact a *combination* of software with some microcode
hardware assist.  But they chose to call those emulators as well.  In
some of those cases, the emulated application could run side-by-side
with other S/360 programs, and in some cases not.

The ones I have spend the most time investigating over the years are
360C-EU-736 and 360-EU-738 - the 1410/7010 emulators.  I actually
tracked down the source code for one of those at one point (though I
don't remember which of the two, and where I stuck it at present).   I
think it was on one of the 360 DOS distributions available for use under
Hercules.  What I found was that it was almost all software, but with
hardware assist for the move and compare instructions.

>From the description in the catalog:

"DESCRIPTION - The 1710[sic]/7010 Emulator program is a stand-alone
program which, with the 1410/7010 Compatibility Feature (No. 4478) [ed.
- the microcode assist] executes 1410/7010 programs on a System/360
Model 50.  The Emulator program is an interpreter simulator that uses
both standard System/360 instructions ans special instructions provided
by the Compatibility feature..."

Secondly, your preferred use of the terms emulator and simulator seems
to go rather against the grain of how those terms are commonly applied
in English in general.  In ordinary English, the term emulation is
typically applied to observed *behavior*, whereas simulation is
typically applied to a more fine-grained reproduction of how that
behavior comes to be.  That is what led me down the exact opposite path
that you have gone down.  It was absolutely not, as you say, pulled out
of anyone's a**.  I and many others came to whatever definitions we use
with a fair amount of thought.

Finally, this was IBM's use of these terms of art from a long long time
ago, and to borrow from your words, I "see no good reason" to be
particularly bound by them.

The reality is that without some kind of body which would provide
specific definitions, such as those in the legal and medical
professions, this discussion is endless and the waters sufficiently
muddy as to be opaque.

JRJ

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 28, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctech  
> wrote:
> 
> IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964.
> They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a
> computer to simulate a different computer.

That's certainly a successful early commercial implementation of emulation, 
done using a particular implementation approach.  At least for some of the 
emulator features -- I believe you're talking about the 1401 emulator.  IBM 
didn't use that all the time; the emulator feature in the 360 model 44, to 
emlulate the missing instructions, uses standard 360 code. 

It's not clear if that IBM product amounts to inventing emulation.  It seems 
likely there are earlier ones, possibly not with that particular choice of 
implementation techniques.


> Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not
> meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors have only
> general-purpose hardware and microcode.
> 
> Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just
> pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented it, I
> see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition.

"emulation" is just a standard English word.  I don't see a good reason to 
limit its application here to a specific intepretation given to it in a 
particular IBM product.  It's not as if IBM's terminology is necessarily the 
predominant one in IT (consider "data set").  And in particular, as was pointed 
out before, "emulator" has a quite specific (and different) meaning in the 
1980s through 2000 or so in microprocessor development hardware.

paul

Re: NEC 4164-12

[dwight via cctalk]

Nice chart Chuck.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:19:53 PM
To: dwight via cctalk
Subject: Re: NEC 4164-12

On 10/28/2017 10:14 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> One caution for 4164s. When they first came out, there were some that were 
> 256 cycle refresh and others that were 128 cycle.
>
> There is no way by looking at them to tell which is which other than getting 
> a matching original manufacture document.
>
> Many machines expect 128 cycle. You can use 256 cycle on chips designed for 
> 128 but not the other way around.
>
> Most Z80 setups only do 128 unless it has additional hardware to handle the 
> extra bit ( not to likely ).
>

There's a great chart of the 4164s and their characteristics here:

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm

NEC 4164 use 128 cycle refresh, but so do many others.

--Chuck

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

IBM invented computer emulation and introduced it with System/360 in 1964.
They defined it as using special-purpose hardware and/or microcode on a
computer to simulate a different computer.

Anything you run on your x86 (or ARM, MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, etc) does not
meet that definition, and is a simulator, since those processors have only
general-purpose hardware and microcode.

Lots of people have other definitions of "emulator" which they've just
pulled out of their a**, but since the System/360 architects invented it, I
see no good reason to prefer anyone else's definition.

Re: Which Dec Emulation is the MOST useful and Versatile?

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 10/27/2017 1:46 PM, ben via cctech wrote:
> On 10/27/2017 9:27 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote:
> 
> 
> With some FPGA venders you could get a TTL library components,
> so you could input older designs. You may have to dig around for them
> because that is not a NEW selling feature any more. Also logic
> cells don't have asynchronous  set and clear anymore.
> 
> Ben.
> 

I suppose, though writing a little HDL to provide the function of a TTL
gate isn't very hard.  As it turns out, the design I replicated from my
college days was actually DTL, rather than TTL.  The lab consisted of 4
19" racks with interconnecting, differentially driven cables.  Each rack
had a card cage, and interconnections were done using re-purposed IBM
unit-record plugboards.  The current project, the IBM 1410, was
originally designed using IBM SMS - discrete transistors.

Picked up tandy 1000 TX

[devin davison via cctalk]

I picked up a tandy 1000 TX with a color CM 11 monitor. Both are in
the original boxes with keyboard,monitor and the printer cable. It
powers on but i can not seem to get it to boot from the floppy drive.
Ive tried writing 720K boot disks from my windows computer but it is
still not booting. Some better pictures to follow soon.

I do not particularly need such a machine, and am open to trade or
offers. If no one wants it perhaps it can be put to use as a BBS or
something packet radio related over here. Also, the boxes both had us
goverment stickers on them, kinda intersting.

https://s20.postimg.org/fr7iox7kt/image3.jpg

--Devin

Re: PDP8.org

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

The wayback machine sorta of details the end of the site. Not sure how much 
data is archived in archive.org.
null