RE: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

Lyndon,
 Seeing as the folks who set up the original distribution are on the Yahoo
list it's the best place to ask questions.  I assume you don't want to set
up a Yahoo account? Facebook perhaps?
Dave
(I think I own the yahoo H390-MTS group but its been quiet for ages)

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyndon
> Nerenberg via cctalk
> Sent: 31 December 2017 02:02
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists
> 
> Are any of you aware of an MTS mailing list that lives outside of the
execrable
> Yahoo groups environment?  And if not, is there any interest in starting
one?
> 
> Meanwhile, if there are any MTS hacks on the list, I have a question:
> 
> When running *SAV or *SVW, what are the labels the system is expecting for
> the FS tapes?  I tried the obvious - FS2001 for the FS2001 tape
prompted
> for - but no luck there.  Then again, maybe I'm not labeling the tapes
> properly.
> 
> This is under Hercules.
> 
>   hetinit -d fs2001.aws FS2001 MTS
> 
> doesn't cut it.  I also tried running *lbh against that tape (to give it
the same
> label), but no luck there, either.
> 
> The MTS operator's guide doesn't have anything to say about daily/weekly
> backups, other than the cryptic notes on the *SAV and *SVW files, and I
can't
> find anything else as I dig through the rest of the online system docs.
> 
> $HELP ?
> 
> --lyndon

Re: Computing from 1976

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/30/2017 8:13 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote:

so if  you bought the altair and put it away  you  could  sort of sell it
for the same amount of money-worth today.
  

Unmarked bills of course. :)
The Lucky One's had timesharing on BIG machines with 32+ K of memory.
Ben.

Re: Computing from 1976

[Ed via cctalk]

so if  you bought the altair and put it away  you  could  sort of sell it  
for the same amount of money-worth today.
 
 
 
In a message dated 12/30/2017 5:10:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

It was  thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> On Sat, 30  Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> >I was perusing my  old computer magazine collection the other day and
> >came across an  article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
> >Computers you  assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS,
> >Sphere, IMSAI  and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in
> >Canada. Now  this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year
> >everyone.  May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018.
> >Happy  computing.  Murray  :)
> 
> OK, a little arithmetic  exercise for you.
> (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly  necessary)

Sounds like fun.

> "Moore's Law", which was  a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been 
> mis-stated as predicting a  doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months.
> 
> 1) Figure out how  many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k 
> "should' have  morphed into by now.

1) 28 doublings since 1975.   

(2017-1975) * 12

18

4K should (had we truly doubed everything every 18 months)  now be 1T
(terrabyte):

2^12   = 4K
2^(12+28)
2^40~ 1T

> 2) What did Gordon Moore actually  say in 1965?

That the number of transistors in an integrated  circuit double every 18
months.

> 3) How much is $500 of  1976 money worth now?

It depends upon how you calculate  it.  I'm using this page [1] for the
calculation, and I  get:

Current data is only available till 2016. In 2016,  the relative
price worth of $500.00 from 1976  is:

$2,110.00 using the Consumer Price Index
$1,680.00 using the GDP deflator
$2,400.00 using the  value of consumer bundle
$2,000.00 using the unskilled  wage
$2,450.00 using the Production Worker  Compensation
$3,340.00 using the nominal GDP per  capita
$4,960.00 using the relative share of GDP

>  4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery 
>  shopping list in 1976.  How long does it take today?

I  would think the same amount of time.  Typing is typing.

> Does  having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with 
>  audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the 
>  quality of life?   

For me, not really.

>  How much does it help to be able to contact your 
> refrigeratior and  query its knowledge of its contents?

It could be helpful, but  with the current state of IoT, I would not want
to have that  ability.

> (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded  exponentially, according 
to 
> Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary  of Boyle's Law, and expands to 
> fill the available space and use all  of the available resources - how 
much 
> can "modern" software do in  4K?, and how much is needed to boot the 
> computer and run a "modern"  text editor?)

EMACS is lean and mean compared to some of the  "text editors" coming out
today, based upon Javascript  frameworks.  It's scary.

> 5) What percentage of computer users  still build from kits, or from 
> scratch?

I would say  significantly less than 1%.  Say, 5% of 1%?  That's  probably
in the right ballpark.

> 6) What has replaced  magazines for keeping in touch with the current 
> state of  computers?

The world wide web, although I do miss the Byte  magazine of the 70s and
80s.  Not so much the  90s.

-spc (Yeah, I realize these were probably rhetorical in  nature ... )

[1] http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

Re: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

o neat

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2017-Dec-30, at 6:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>
> > mts???
> >
> > as in manitoba telcome services now known as bellmts??
>
>
>
> No, Michigan Terminal System.
>
> A timesharing system for IBM 360/370 series mainframes, used and
> maintained at a number of universities from the late 60s through early 90s
> for campus-wide computing services.

Re: Computing from 1976

[Ed via cctalk]

Thanks for the heads up on this  S-100  site!
PdP-11 on a s-100  bus  even..  Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 12/30/2017 5:01:26 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

A good  site for what was in the 1975-1980  era.
http://www.s100computers.com/index.html

Re: Computing from 1976

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 12/30/2017 07:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote:
I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot 
something that then needs to check the net. I use a all 
valve audio system and tubes are warmed up and ready to 
go before my music app exits the splash screen.


The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever 
and a half before it is ready to use that speed.



5 MINUTES?  My old laptop, with very modest CPU, is logged 
on, from a cold start, in 15 seconds (including me typing 
the password). That is with Ubuntu Linux.  I don't know how 
long it takes my desktop to boot up, I think a bit longer, 
but I just leave it on all the time.  I do have solid state 
drives in both those machines.


Jon

Re: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Dec-30, at 6:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

> mts???
> 
> as in manitoba telcome services now known as bellmts??



No, Michigan Terminal System.

A timesharing system for IBM 360/370 series mainframes, used and maintained at 
a number of universities from the late 60s through early 90s for campus-wide 
computing services.

Restoring MTS *FS distribution tapes onto a UNIX system

[Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk]

The answer to my previous question lives in the source code.  The D6.0A MTS 
distribution doesn't have the source on disk, so the files need to be extracted 
from the *FS tapes.  On an MTS system, that's a pain in the ass.

Given the DRIVER file from the distribution, has anyone tried extracting the 
6.0A distribution tapes into UNIX file hierarchy, based on the hinted 
component/sub names?  I'm thinking just the raw files - I don't care that 
they're EBCDIC at this point, so no content conversion required.

--lyndon

Re: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

mts???

as in manitoba telcome services now known as bellmts??

Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk]

Are any of you aware of an MTS mailing list that lives outside of the
execrable Yahoo groups environment?  And if not, is there any interest in
starting one?

Meanwhile, if there are any MTS hacks on the list, I have a question:

When running *SAV or *SVW, what are the labels the system is expecting for the
FS tapes?  I tried the obvious - FS2001 for the FS2001 tape prompted
for - but no luck there.  Then again, maybe I'm not labeling the tapes
properly.

This is under Hercules.

  hetinit -d fs2001.aws FS2001 MTS

doesn't cut it.  I also tried running *lbh against that tape (to give it the
same label), but no luck there, either.

The MTS operator's guide doesn't have anything to say about daily/weekly
backups, other than the cryptic notes on the *SAV and *SVW files, and I can't
find anything else as I dig through the rest of the online system docs.

$HELP ?

--lyndon

Re: Computing from 1976

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 30, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been mis-stated 
> as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months.

True, but that applies also to any "law of nature".  They are not rules, as 
political laws are; instead they are (a) a compact statement of what has been 
observed and (b) a prediction of what will be observed in the future.   They 
are always subject to revision if contradicted by evidence, as Newton's law of 
gravitation was.

paul

Re: Computing from 1976

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote:
I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then 
needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed 
up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen.


The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever and a half 
before it is ready to use that speed.



Why did anybody ever need more than 64K?
And, ten times that much seemed like it oughta be enough for a long time.


The real problem back the, was the lack of REAL disk I/O, with the high price 
of 8 inch floppy drives and media.


They sure did cost a LOT.

And, I remember it being thousands of dollars for a 5 or 10 MB hard disk.

Re: Computing from 1976

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

theres some mid 70's insturmentation magizines and industrial computer
magizines i inherited with a house i bought this yr full of neat stuff i
think theres even some blips of these macheans discused in one of them


In those days, they spelled it "M A C H I N E S"

Few people know what "macheans" are.

Re: Computing from 1976

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Sean Conner wrote:


 4K should (had we truly doubed everything every 18 months) now be 1T
 (terrabyte):



2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965?

 That the number of transistors in an integrated circuit double every 18
 months.

3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now?

 It depends upon how you calculate it.  I'm using this page [1] for the
 calculation, and I get:
$4,960.00 using the relative share of GDP



4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery
shopping list in 1976.  How long does it take today?

 I would think the same amount of time.  Typing is typing.


Except that it seems like it didn't used to take so long to get the 
machine started up.



Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with
audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the
quality of life?

 For me, not really.


Really.


How much does it help to be able to contact your
refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents?

 It could be helpful, but with the current state of IoT, I would not want
 to have that ability.


But, we could also do our web-surfing standing in the kitchen?


 EMACS is lean and mean compared to some of the "text editors" coming out
 today, based upon Javascript frameworks.  It's scary.


When a simple peice of software comes on a DVD, because a CD-ROM is no 
longer big enough, . . .




 -spc (Yeah, I realize these were probably rhetorical in nature ... )


Don't you hate rhetorical questions?

Re: Computing from 1976

[Sean Conner via cctalk]

It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> >I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and
> >came across an article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
> >Computers you assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS,
> >Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in
> >Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year
> >everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018.
> >Happy computing.  Murray  :)
> 
> OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you.
> (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary)

  Sounds like fun.

> "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been 
> mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months.
> 
> 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k 
> "should' have morphed into by now.

  1) 28 doublings since 1975.  

(2017-1975) * 12

18

  4K should (had we truly doubed everything every 18 months) now be 1T
  (terrabyte):

2^12= 4K
2^(12+28)
2^40~ 1T

> 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965?

  That the number of transistors in an integrated circuit double every 18
  months.

> 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now?

  It depends upon how you calculate it.  I'm using this page [1] for the
  calculation, and I get:

Current data is only available till 2016. In 2016, the relative
price worth of $500.00 from 1976 is:

$2,110.00 using the Consumer Price Index
$1,680.00 using the GDP deflator
$2,400.00 using the value of consumer bundle
$2,000.00 using the unskilled wage
$2,450.00 using the Production Worker Compensation
$3,340.00 using the nominal GDP per capita
$4,960.00 using the relative share of GDP

> 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery 
> shopping list in 1976.  How long does it take today?

  I would think the same amount of time.  Typing is typing.

> Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with 
> audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the 
> quality of life?   

  For me, not really.

> How much does it help to be able to contact your 
> refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents?

  It could be helpful, but with the current state of IoT, I would not want
  to have that ability.

> (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to 
> Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to 
> fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much 
> can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the 
> computer and run a "modern" text editor?)

  EMACS is lean and mean compared to some of the "text editors" coming out
  today, based upon Javascript frameworks.  It's scary.

> 5) What percentage of computer users still build from kits, or from 
> scratch?

  I would say significantly less than 1%.  Say, 5% of 1%?  That's probably
  in the right ballpark.

> 6) What has replaced magazines for keeping in touch with the current 
> state of computers?

  The world wide web, although I do miss the Byte magazine of the 70s and
  80s.  Not so much the 90s.

  -spc (Yeah, I realize these were probably rhetorical in nature ... )

[1] http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

Re: Computing from 1976

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/30/2017 3:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and
came across an article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
Computers you assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS,
Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in
Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year
everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018.
Happy computing.  Murray  :)


A good site for what was in the 1975-1980 era.
http://www.s100computers.com/index.html
Yes you could get 16kb in 1976 is if you looked hard.


OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you.
(a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary)


I can  add, I have 10 toes. :)

"Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been 
mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months.


1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k 
"should' have morphed into by now.


4K x 64 bit ram?


2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965?

3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now?


Other than the 6502 and friends $500+ was and still is the price for the
cutting edge cpu.

4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery 
shopping list in 1976.  How long does it take today?
Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with 
audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the 
quality of life?  


I Smell-O-Vision all the time. Sniff Sniff , time to buy new veggies,
new meat and wash my socks.

 How much does it help to be able to contact your

refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents?



I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that 
then needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes 
are warmed up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen.


The real problem back the, was the lack of REAL disk I/O, with the high 
price of 8 inch floppy drives and media.


Ben.

Re: Computing from 1976

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

theres some mid 70's insturmentation magizines and industrial computer
magizines i inherited with a house i bought this yr full of neat stuff i
think theres even some blips of these macheans discused in one of them

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 4:57 PM, william degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and
> > came across an article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
> > Computers you assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976.
> >
> >
> what magazine?
> b
>

Re: Computing from 1976

[Nigel Williams via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:57 AM, william degnan via cctalk
 wrote:
> what magazine?

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wAAMBAJ=PA82

Popular Science Dec-1976

Re: Computing from 1976

[william degnan via cctalk]

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and
> came across an article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
> Computers you assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976.
>
>
what magazine?
b

Re: Computing from 1976

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and
came across an article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
Computers you assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS,
Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in
Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year
everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018.
Happy computing.  Murray  :)


OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you.
(a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary)

"Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been 
mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months.


1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k 
"should' have morphed into by now.


2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965?

3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now?

4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery 
shopping list in 1976.  How long does it take today?
Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with 
audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the 
quality of life?   How much does it help to be able to contact your 
refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents?
(Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to 
Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to 
fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much 
can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the 
computer and run a "modern" text editor?)


5) What percentage of computer users still build from kits, or from 
scratch?


6) What has replaced magazines for keeping in touch with the current 
state of computers?

Computing from 1976

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and
came across an article entitled: “Fast-Growing new hobby, Real
Computers you assemble yourself”, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS,
Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in
Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year
everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018.

Happy computing.  Murray  :)