TSS/8 on RK05
Hi all -- We've wanted to run TSS/8 on one of our PDP-8 systems at LCM+L for a long time now, and while we contemplated either (a) restoring our RF08 or (b) building an RF08 emulator, I decided it might be fun to investigate a third option: (c) modify TSS/8 to run off hardware we already have running, namely an RK05 drive. And it /was/ fun! And seems to have been successful, as we now have TSS/8 running on our PDP-8/e. Performance is acceptable, and it seems to be stable so far. The changes I made are here: https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/cpus-pdp8 This is a fork of a codebase that Brad Parker put together a number of years back in which he did some serious work to get TSS/8 to build (amongst other things). I made use of this effort, which saved a lot of time and made building/testing my changes quite straightforward. I also modified the disk image: It's extended to 1MW (the maximum possible without modifying the filesystem code) and I ported a couple of extra programs to TSS/8 (CHEKMO and LISP). I figured some people here might also be able to take advantage of being able to run TSS/8 from RK05. I know RK8E's are pretty rare, but I'm also guessing more people have them than have working fixed-head disks :). If you do give it a try, let me know if you run into any issues or if you have any feature requests. Thanks, Josh
Re: First Internet message and ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: A sad commentary in this age of what my ???facts??? and your ???facts??? are, are not the same but we historians should do our best to state ???firsts??? and ???facts??? are indeed that to the best of our knowledge. A typical instance of "The Blind Men And The Elephant". Even if we go to original sources. I've heard some interesting arguments between people who were in the military, industry and academia at the time, about the relative importance of those players in the creation of the internet. None (well,FEW) are "wrong", but perceptions vary, because at the time it is impossible to see all of it at once. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: First Internet message and ...
On 11/25/19 8:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I don't know what I'll do now. I can't do the amount of stuff that I > did decades ago. What I've found with age is that nobody begrudges you for taking long naps... Zz, --Chuck
Re: One old Sol, Two old names...
On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:43 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've just had the pleasure of taking a new machine into my collection, a > Sol > 20. > > It's particularly interesting for several reasons. First, it was once in > the possession > > of Jim Willing (zoom into the label next to the control key): > > > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_195224.jpg > > > > For those that don't know, Jim was a very early collector of vintage > computers > > and one of the first collectors to put up a web site with pictures of his > collection, > > scans of documents and the like. Also, he was one of the first posters to > the > > original classic computer mailing list: > > > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/ Huh, small world! I recently got the R80 drive that came with my VAX-11/730 running, and was able to read an image of it -- which revealed that the VAX previously belonged to Jim (and was apparently used to run his BBS for a time). I've been meaning to track him down -- does anyone know if he's still around? (Also, nice find. Sol 20's are fun little computers.) - Josh
Re: First Internet message and ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: Things we historians talk about are ‘firsts’ and ‘facts’. If we go to original source(s) maybe then we will get things right. I guess the best that can be said is we agree to disagree. A sad commentary in this age of what my ‘facts’ and your ‘facts’ are, are not the same but we historians should do our best to state ‘firsts’ and ‘facts’ are indeed that to the best of our knowledge. The 60 yrs. as noted was a math error and here I spent years as a BASIC, C and C++ programmer as isn’t mathematics the basis for all programming languages? Let's indeed toast to all micro-computing progenitors for making our hobby possible. If we didn't make arithmetic errors, we couldn't prove that we are human (a variation/enhancement of a Turing test?) "Facts" need to be checked for prior corruption of the stories, but are often traceable. "Firsts" bother me, as they always seem to glorify a famous early guy, and ignore all those who came before, even if they had already done the supposed "first" activity. Hence we get the "Jobs invented computers; Gates invented operating systems" nonsense. So, I prefer "important" events, rather than "FIRST". I’ve been a hobbyist and experimenter since the 1970s though I worked on mini-computers(PDP-8/11) in the 1960s. I got to work on them in high school; I know we were rather privileged. For microcomputers it began in April 1978 when I built the Heathkit H8($2500 Cdn.) a computer based on the PDP-11 with 4K(B) of an 8K(B) card; now $2500 will buy a truly powerful home computer with 16/32GB of memory. My second, the Coleco ADAM, computer was Aug. 1984. A bit more powerful and more useful to be sure. Finally in 1989 I moved into the IBM PC world – the Compaq Deskpro 386 which ran DOS, Lotus 1-2-3 and Windows 2 that could run Word and Excel. Wow! Notebooks followed. And now(well Aug. 2019 to be precise) I built my own custom Mini-ITX PC from parts sourced here and there for $750 Cdn. This makes me nostalgic for the old days of computing we talk about on cctalk. Rather similar backgrounds. My father had taught me adding machines, keypunching, sorting machine, etc., and always had low-paying work for me to do. On May 24, 1965, he called me from out of town and told me, "LEARN FORTRAN." He had just had a bad experience with "professional" data processing by IBM (CBS "National Drivers Test"), and was going to IMMEDIATELY switch over to doing his own computer work. So, we learned some FORTRAN. I did keypunching and EAM work while in college, and was a data technician at Goddard Space Flight Center 1970-1972 (APL, FORTRAN, plotting subroutines) Aerospace was collapsing, and I got out, but we were hearing about the coming "micro processor", so I declared that I would get back into computers "in about five years, when tabletop computers programmable in FORTRAN come out and get cheap enough for me." (it turned out to be BASIC instead, and "tabletop" was not the name) I built and ran an auto repair shop, until TRS80/PET/Apple caame out. Even wrote a book on Honda car repair. I got the first TRS80 available, and sold my auto shop to two of my employees. They're still doing it, almost 40 years later. I built and ran a small microcomputer business (small peripherals such as memory and disk drives, commercial software, and my software) and began community college teaching. When IBM announced the PC, I said, "Whether it is good or bad, it is going to DOMINATE the market, and in only a few years, all microcomputers will be Imitations-of-IBM-PC, and 'all others'." So, I got the first one that I could (end of 1981). I ran my business, and taught full-time for over 30 years. And put in enough work at UCBerkeley to get an MLIS and PhD/ABD Seven years ago, I was completely overwhelmed having to take care of my mother 24 hours a day, along with serious health problems of my own. So, no more business; no more teaching, for 4 years. I started to write a textbook on Information Science. I don't know what I'll do now. I can't do the amount of stuff that I did decades ago. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: First Internet message and ...
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com *Wrote:* *“More worrisome is that Murray is NOT A "NEWCOMER" who will be "scared off" * *by corrections of his facts! This is not the first time that he has * *needed to be admonished to be VERY specific about what was "FIRST" about * *something. He wrote about the exact same event three weeks ago, on the * *correct date, with much more accurate details, other than calling it "the * *first inter-computer communication". Not sure where he got the November * *21 date, nor the "SIXTY years ago" (probably a simple misteak)* *He is quite capable of some fairly good writing. I don't remember any * *prior time that he had to be reminded to "PICK A TOPIC!" rather than * *string together eight unrelated concepts into four sentences.* *On the other hand, if his confusion was recreational, that's OK, too.* *Let's have a toast with him to the people who got the idea to work, * *disunirregardless of who was "first".”* ** * Things we historians talk about are ‘firsts’ and ‘facts’. If we go to original source(s) maybe then we will get things right. I guess the best that can be said is we agree to disagree. A sad commentary in this age of what my ‘facts’ and your ‘facts’ are, are not the same but we historians should do our best to state ‘firsts’ and ‘facts’ are indeed that to the best of our knowledge. The 60 yrs. as noted was a math error and here I spent years as a BASIC, C and C++ programmer as isn’t mathematics the basis for all programming languages? Let's indeed toast to all micro-computing progenitors for making our hobby possible. I’ve been a hobbyist and experimenter since the 1970s though I worked on mini-computers(PDP-8/11) in the 1960s. I got to work on them in high school; I know we were rather privileged. For microcomputers it began in April 1978 when I built the Heathkit H8($2500 Cdn.) a computer based on the PDP-11 with 4K(B) of an 8K(B) card; now $2500 will buy a truly powerful home computer with 16/32GB of memory. My second, the Coleco ADAM, computer was Aug. 1984. A bit more powerful and more useful to be sure. Finally in 1989 I moved into the IBM PC world – the Compaq Deskpro 386 which ran DOS, Lotus 1-2-3 and Windows 2 that could run Word and Excel. Wow! Notebooks followed. And now(well Aug. 2019 to be precise) I built my own custom Mini-ITX PC from parts sourced here and there for $750 Cdn. This makes me nostalgic for the old days of computing we talk about on cctalk. Happy computing. Murray ☺
Re: Correction for First Internet Message
We actually do appreciate the integrity of making corrections. Most ofus should follow that example. I hope that we have not been unduly harsh and insensitive in correcting your misteaks. Unfortunately, besides the year, the event to which you referred is commonly accepted as being October 29, 1969. I consider it to have been an extremely important "proof of concept" of what could eventually be done. While there had been various inter-computer communications back to 1959, and probably before, it was important when they finally got that aspect of DARPANET to work! I especially like: https://thisdayintechhistory.com/10/29/first-message-on-the-internet/ because it has a picture of the hand-written log entry for it. and, Happy Computing to you, too! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: I apologize for the wrong date. Should have said Nov. 21, 1969. Makes more sense timewise... Happy computing Murray ???
One old Sol, Two old names...
I've just had the pleasure of taking a new machine into my collection, a Sol 20. It's particularly interesting for several reasons. First, it was once in the possession of Jim Willing (zoom into the label next to the control key): http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_195224.jpg For those that don't know, Jim was a very early collector of vintage computers and one of the first collectors to put up a web site with pictures of his collection, scans of documents and the like. Also, he was one of the first posters to the original classic computer mailing list: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/ That's the first old name. Other interesting things about the Sol include that it has an 80/64 video modification (with patches all over): http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_202606.jpg and a patched personality module socket with a custom ROM: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_195249.jpg which leads to the second old name. One that I don't know: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_211019.jpg Every time that the machine boots it displays that banner: *** DAN CETRONE *** I've done some googling but I can't find out anything about him. I've started to disassemble the contents of the ROM. There are some blocks that look like the Micro Complex ROM, but other sections don't match. I'll publish it when I'm done. Anyway, I don't know if Dan was the author or just wanted to uniquely identify his Sol. If anyone knows, knew, knew about, Dan, I'd love to hear about it. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
This is starting to sound like a usenet discussion years ago about the correct plural of 'VAX' :-) Vaxen, Vaces, or just multiple VAX installations anybody? cheers, Nigel On 25/11/2019 21:19, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: On 11/25/19 2:14 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: Will, Good one. LOL! :) GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 4:10 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs". If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of vi vs. emacs. -- Will this list is better than a free movie ticket z... -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
On 11/25/19 2:14 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: Will, Good one. LOL! :) GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 4:10 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs". If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of vi vs. emacs. -- Will this list is better than a free movie ticket z...
Re: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
They have all gone to good homes. Thanks to Matt and Dave in England for taking an IRMALink each, and Alan in USA for taking the MC/8e Intelligent Async serial set. Not cheap postage, but they saved me from having to bin those nice old cards. Guy At 04:06 PM 23/11/2019 +1100, you wrote: >I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if >anyone wants them. >Catch: they are in Sydney Australia. > >--- > >Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985 >IRMAlink IRMA 2 3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications >IRMA 2 supplies the personal computer with direct coaxial connection >to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or Integral Terminal Controller with Type A >adapters. > >Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with >code and drivers. >Not in original packing. > >See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm > >--- > >DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8 ports) Circa >1993 >One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals. Some manuals still in >sealed envelopes. > >In original packing > >See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm > >--- > >Guy > >
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
On 11/25/2019 5:29 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: Do you mean they have finally perfected the WOM??? Yes in 1972 , but no free samples of the Signetics 25120, orders only of 999,999 units @ $ 1.95 each. (limited time offer) http://www.ganssle.com/misc/wom1.jpg http://www.ganssle.com/misc/wom2.jpg
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
Do you mean they have finally perfected the WOM??? On 11/25/2019 6:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device. -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
On 11/25/2019 5:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an intranet, as distinct from The Internet. Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device. I am just waiting for a INTERNET of pi's all emulating TSS 8. The web for the last 20 years is what marketing wants to sell. Ben.
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:53 AM Nigel Johnson via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > No, your home has an intranet! > My home has multiple distinct IP networks, which are joined by routers, and by definition they constitute an internet. As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an intranet, as distinct from The Internet.
Re: Straight -8 Front Panel
On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 5:56 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi Ethan > > Ok .. I now have dimensions and will add you to the list Cool. Thanks. > I have only recently got back to doing panels after a break of a couple > of years. No worries. Good to hear your wife is on the mend. I'm in no hurry. I won't be doing any restoration work on the Straight-8s in the next year. My next big project is trying to get started on my 11/20. It has the plexi, so no worries there. It was stripped before I rescued it from a dumpster so I have to replace all the muffin fans and check to see if I have the power paddles or if I have to have some made. I definitely did not get the PSUs (those and the fans were kept) and I am likely to use modern equipment rather than try to source 50-year-old DEC linear PSUs. The target is to get it working by Spring 2022. After I get my -8/S up, then I'll probably try to tackle one of the Straight-8s, but I wanted to get in line for a plexi because the time to get one is when they are made, not 10 years later. Cheers, -ethan
Re: Straight -8 Front Panel
Hi Ethan Ok .. I now have dimensions and will add you to the list I have only recently got back to doing panels after a break of a couple of years. My wife has not been too well and has been hospitalized on a couple of occaisions. However now she is just about fully recovered so I'm back to making panels. I have stocks of PDP8/e (A and B), PDP8/f and universal /f or /m (unmarked). I'm redoing the old artwork and looking to do my own screening when the weather gets better. Doing silk screen printing in a English winter is not a good idea. We have had showery rain and temps in the range -1C to +4C for weeks. It aint going to get better anytime soon. Even in a heated room the humidity is too high for quick drying. I plan to have a range of panels made and in stock next spring. I'm always interested in requirements for panels. So if you hear of any please let me know. Rod Smallwood On 25/11/2019 21:10, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 4:02 PM corey cohen via cctalk wrote: If no one answers I can measure the panel at the VCF Museum’s straight-8 on Wednesday when I’m there. I have the means to give the answer (and I'm likely to be a purchaser since mine has some paint damage) but I can't get to mine before December. Looking forward to hearing the answer. -ethan --
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
Will, Good one. LOL! :) GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 4:10 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs". If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of vi vs. emacs. -- Will
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
Mike, That is easy. I am running a router/firewall as my gateway and I have a gigabit switch. I also have some 100mbit hubs and switches but I'm not using them. We can also get in to the fact the proper place to reply is at the top of the post and not at the bottom. Top posting has been the proper way since private BBS' were in existence. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 4:03 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: - Original Message - From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 3:45 PM Subject: Re: "First Internet message" and ... ... Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer headers")? ... Noel --- Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs". m
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
> Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion > finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" > vs. "routers" vs. "hubs". If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of vi vs. emacs. -- Will
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
- Original Message - From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 3:45 PM Subject: Re: "First Internet message" and ... >... Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an > 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate > networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer > headers")? > ... > Noel --- Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs". m
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
Hello all, So I had an internet when I had my Amigas networked to my Windoze machines with Arcnet and the Windoze machines where connected to the Internet through a router/firewall. Correct?? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 2:45 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Nigel Johnson > No, your home has an intranet! Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer headers")? If not, it's just marketing-speak, and should go where "Hitchhiker's Guide" said marketing should go. (Having said that, only half-jokingly, I should add that I am fully aware that _really good_ marketing people are worth their own weight in gold-pressed latinum; the prime example being Steve Jobs, who invented several products that people didn't know they needed/wanted until he produced them.) > From: Paul Koning > No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network > of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different > technologies. That's not the definition used by the originators of the term: see the Cerf/Kahn paper. (I basically regurgitated it, above.) > "Internet" .. the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became > desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a > US government research agency creation. I can guarantee you that that is not correct (sorry). In 1982, which is approximately when the term was created, you _had_ to have a USG connection to get connected to the Internet. And the ARPANET was always called the ARPANET until its last remnants were turned off in 1990 (although use of NCP was discarded in January 1983, considerably earlier, so it was only used as a component of the Internet after that). In fact, I recollect the conversion with Vint Cerf (at an INENG/IETF meeting, IIRC) where the term 'Internet' was suggested/adopted; in fact I may have been the person who suggested it, although the memory is now too dim. The adoption was _solely_ to do with the need for a name for the large internet we were all connecting to, and _nothing_ to do with organizational stuff. Noel
Correction for First Internet Message
I apologize for the wrong date. Should have said Nov. 21, 1969. Makes more sense timewise... Happy computing Murray ☺
Re: Straight -8 Front Panel
On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 4:02 PM corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > If no one answers I can measure the panel at the VCF Museum’s straight-8 on > Wednesday when I’m there. I have the means to give the answer (and I'm likely to be a purchaser since mine has some paint damage) but I can't get to mine before December. Looking forward to hearing the answer. -ethan
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
seen recently: "Ah, but was it porn, spam, or pop-up ads that really fueled the development of the interwebs?"
Re: Straight -8 Front Panel
If no one answers I can measure the panel at the VCF Museum’s straight-8 on Wednesday when I’m there. > On Nov 25, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi > > Can anybody tell me the dimensions of a Straight-8 Front Panel. - Just the > glass section > > Thanks > > Rod > > > -- > >
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
On 2019-Nov-25, at 11:01 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Nov 25, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk >> wrote: >> On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: From: Fred Cisin Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history. ... those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the internet. >>> >>> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'? >>> >>> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two >>> different words, with _different meanings_. >>> ... >> >> Noel, >> Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet >> and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of >> networked computers? >> >> rich > No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network of > computers belonging to different organizations, or using different > technologies. I think at the time, "network" was used to designate a > collection of computers in a single building, or under single management, > talking to each other. If you connect such "networks" together, the result > is an "internet". > > I'd say that term is at this point rather obsolete. I don't think I've seen > it in use as a technical term for decades. > > "Internet", with a capital letter, is something different entirely: it is (or > feels like) the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became desirable to > call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a US government > research agency creation. > paul (From my recollection from back in the early 80s), "internet" was about interworking between different *types* of networks. Different types of networks and network technologies presented different capabilities and restrictions to the user - packet/frame sizes, flow control, routing/addressing specification, etc. The point of 'internetting' was to provide a uniform interface for the user to 'the network' while your data could flow through instances of all sorts of different types of networks (not necessarily just different types of physical links) to get to the other end. Roughly, IP took care of a common addressing scheme and a common packet presentation, TCP took care of end-to-end flow control. (It wasn't (only) about bridging geographically-separated but otherwise-similar networks.) It seems this is so all-encompassing nowadays that the original meaning is being lost. As so much nowadays is about throwing ethernet frames around on different types of links and network formats (not what ethernet was originally designed for), some of the earlier diversity that made 'interneting' necessary may no longer be there. It might be arguable whether we have an 'internet' any longer or just a great big 'network' with different types of links.
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
> From: Nigel Johnson > No, your home has an intranet! Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer headers")? If not, it's just marketing-speak, and should go where "Hitchhiker's Guide" said marketing should go. (Having said that, only half-jokingly, I should add that I am fully aware that _really good_ marketing people are worth their own weight in gold-pressed latinum; the prime example being Steve Jobs, who invented several products that people didn't know they needed/wanted until he produced them.) > From: Paul Koning > No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network > of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different > technologies. That's not the definition used by the originators of the term: see the Cerf/Kahn paper. (I basically regurgitated it, above.) > "Internet" .. the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became > desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a > US government research agency creation. I can guarantee you that that is not correct (sorry). In 1982, which is approximately when the term was created, you _had_ to have a USG connection to get connected to the Internet. And the ARPANET was always called the ARPANET until its last remnants were turned off in 1990 (although use of NCP was discarded in January 1983, considerably earlier, so it was only used as a component of the Internet after that). In fact, I recollect the conversion with Vint Cerf (at an INENG/IETF meeting, IIRC) where the term 'Internet' was suggested/adopted; in fact I may have been the person who suggested it, although the memory is now too dim. The adoption was _solely_ to do with the need for a name for the large internet we were all connecting to, and _nothing_ to do with organizational stuff. Noel
Re: First Internet message and ...
On 11/25/19 2:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/25/19 11:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Does nobody remember AUTODIN? >> >> Basically, no. > > Yeah. That's what I thought--or even WWMCCS. > Well, just to keep a lot people from going to bed tonite in tears. :-) Having been military communicator starting in the late 60's I remember both AUTODIN and WWMCCS. bill
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
> From: Richard Pope
> Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home:
> internet
It depends on what's inside it.
An 'internet' is a collection of disparate networks tied together with packet
switches which examine the internet-layer headers of the packets passing
through them (such boxes are now known as 'routers'). The "internet layer"
doesn't appear in the ISO 7-layer model, since the concept didn't appear
until after that was done; but you can imagine it as layer '3A', crammed in
between 3 ('Network') and 4 ('Transport').
Note that there are a number of networking protocol families that include the
internet concept; CHAOS, PUP, XNS and DECnet among them (although there are
several versions of DECnet and I no longer remember the details of most of
them, so take that one with the proverbial grain, but several had internets).
Does does the network in your house use router(s) to tie it together? If so,
it's an internet; if not, no. If you have a wireless hub, connected to a CATV
modem, you probably have a small piece of 'the Internet' in your house. (See
below.)
Note that there are still internets (and networks) which are not connected to
the Internet - Google for "air gap".
> and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of
> networked computers?
Originally 'the Internet' was the large TCP/IP internet centered around the
ARPANET, and later the NSFNET.
These days, the concept is more diffuse - there was some discussion recently
on the internet-history list:
http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/
about it, but I'm too lazy to track down the exact messages.
Noel
Re: First Internet message and ...
On 11/25/19 11:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Does nobody remember AUTODIN? > > Basically, no. Yeah. That's what I thought--or even WWMCCS. --Chuck
Re: First Internet message and ...
> Does nobody remember AUTODIN? Basically, no. -- Will
Re: First Internet message and ...
On 11/25/19 11:15 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > Taking the risk of opening another can of worms... > > ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network. I believe SITA HLN > was world-wide by 1969. However it was a mix of switching technologies > from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you > were in. Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully > automatic data routing in 1966. > > And ARPANET wasn't the largest data network when TCP/IP was formalized > in the early 80s. We only recognize it as the 'Internet' because of > it's lineage. Does nobody remember AUTODIN? --Chuck
Re: First Internet message and ...
> ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network. I believe SITA HLN > was world-wide by 1969. However it was a mix of switching technologies > from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you > were in. Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully > automatic data routing in 1966. AUTODIN was also worldwide by the late 1960s. While it did not allow interactivity between computers - well, back then that really was not much of a thing - It did allow email and generic file transfer (stack of cards - what a file was back then) between varying computer systems. And then there was a Western Electric system that I forget the name of. I have one of the tape drive racks in my garage (videos of this and my AUTODIN junk eventually).. -- Will
Re: First Internet message and ...
Taking the risk of opening another can of worms... ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network. I believe SITA HLN was world-wide by 1969. However it was a mix of switching technologies from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you were in. Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully automatic data routing in 1966. And ARPANET wasn't the largest data network when TCP/IP was formalized in the early 80s. We only recognize it as the 'Internet' because of it's lineage. -Alan On 2019-11-24 17:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to mis-information from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many". Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well mainly through the hardware side. Happy computing. Murray ☺
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different technologies. I think at the time, "network" was used to designate a collection of computers in a single building, or under single management, talking to each other. If you connect such "networks" together, the result is an "internet". I'd say that term is at this point rather obsolete. I don't think I've seen it in use as a technical term for decades. "Internet", with a capital letter, is something different entirely: it is (or feels like) the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a US government research agency creation. paul > On Nov 25, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk > wrote: > > Noel, >Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet > and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of > networked computers? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Fred Cisin >> >> > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying >> > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older >> history. >> > ... >> > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the >> > internet. >> >> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'? >> >> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two >> different words, with _different meanings_. >> ...
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
Nigel, You are correct. Sorry! A Senior moment. LOL! :) What about internet vs Internet? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 12:53 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: No, your home has an intranet! cheers, Nigel On 25/11/2019 13:45, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: Noel, Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history. > ... > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the > internet. Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'? The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two different words, with _different meanings_. > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical > ... > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the > December 1974 RFC about TCP? I believe the word 'internet' was coined for: V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C- 2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648. There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the Cerf/Kakhn paper. Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn paper came out. "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas, fading), and we decided on 'Internet'. I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA Internet"); the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning which I found was in RFC821, August 1982. Noel
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
No, your home has an intranet! cheers, Nigel On 25/11/2019 13:45, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: Noel, Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history. > ... > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the > internet. Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'? The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two different words, with _different meanings_. > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical > ... > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the > December 1974 RFC about TCP? I believe the word 'internet' was coined for: V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C- 2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648. There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the Cerf/Kakhn paper. Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn paper came out. "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas, fading), and we decided on 'Internet'. I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA Internet"); the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning which I found was in RFC821, August 1982. Noel -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
Noel, Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history. > ... > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the > internet. Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'? The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two different words, with _different meanings_. > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical > ... > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the > December 1974 RFC about TCP? I believe the word 'internet' was coined for: V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C- 2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648. There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the Cerf/Kakhn paper. Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn paper came out. "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas, fading), and we decided on 'Internet'. I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA Internet"); the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning which I found was in RFC821, August 1982. Noel
Re: "First Internet message" and ...
> From: Fred Cisin > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history. > ... > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the > internet. Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'? The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two different words, with _different meanings_. > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical > ... > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the > December 1974 RFC about TCP? I believe the word 'internet' was coined for: V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C- 2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648. There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the Cerf/Kakhn paper. Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn paper came out. "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas, fading), and we decided on 'Internet'. I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA Internet"); the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning which I found was in RFC821, August 1982. Noel
Re: First Internet message and ...
On 11/25/19 8:55 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Like most things, the colors of computer networking history get > extremely blurred and runny, like using watercolors on toilet paper. A lot on the subject has been written. Sometimes they even go back to primary sources. Most times, they just regurgitate what others have written. Maybe things will get better as access to the primary sources that still exist gets requires less work.
Re: First Internet message and ...
> 2019 - 60 = 1959. Yes, there were a few computers then, and > serial communication over phone lines was possible. > But, "Internet"?? Did they actually use TCP/IP? No, not > invented yet. Like most things, the colors of computer networking history get extremely blurred and runny, like using watercolors on toilet paper. -- Will
Re: First Internet message and ...
On 11/24/2019 04:07 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and UCLA. 2019 - 60 = 1959. Yes, there were a few computers then, and serial communication over phone lines was possible. But, "Internet"?? Did they actually use TCP/IP? No, not invented yet. Jon
Straight -8 Front Panel
Hi Can anybody tell me the dimensions of a Straight-8 Front Panel. - Just the glass section Thanks Rod --
Re: First Internet message and ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:38, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated" That is something I would _really_ like to hear. Sadly I am on the wrong continent for it and that's not likely to change in the foreseeable future. Between new baby, Eastern European salary, US government and its dim view of journalists, greenhouse-gas footprint of gratuitous intercontinental travel and so on, I may never visit North America again. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
