[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 7:32 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> >>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
> >>> hurtling down the highway?
> >> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
> >> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
> >> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
>
> On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up.
> Well, certainly more than tapes.
>
> A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards?
>

There's gotta be something like 1,000 1TB MicroSD cards per 22TB hard drive.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?

I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.


On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up.

Well, certainly more than tapes.

A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards?

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The exact quote by Andrew Tanenbaum is: "Never underestimate the 
bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.".

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Andrew_S._Tanenbaum

Randall Munroe has addressed the issue! :
https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/


On Wed, 31 May 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:


On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:01 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:


What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?



This is actually a compelling thought.

My answer: a lot.

With regards to punched cards: I imagine I converted about 200,000 during
the days when I provided that service, equalling an astounding 16 MEGABYTES
of data(!!!)

An addendum (and true story): I once converted 50,000 punched cards
containing names of the dead, for Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland,
California.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up.

On 5/31/2023 7:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 5/31/23 17:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?

I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:01 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
> hurtling down the highway?
>

This is actually a compelling thought.

My answer: a lot.

With regards to punched cards: I imagine I converted about 200,000 during
the days when I provided that service, equalling an astounding 16 MEGABYTES
of data(!!!)

An addendum (and true story): I once converted 50,000 punched cards
containing names of the dead, for Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland,
California.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

This has been covered here before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2549

The bit rate over internet over non-electronic transmission methods 
depends on several factors:


1. Speed of the mechanical transfer medium (Car, motorcycle, drone, air
   plane, sled dog, etc.).
2. The time is takes to traverse the distance.
3. The total amount of data being transported.

For example a carrier pigeon carrying 1TB USB drive for 1 mile at 30 MPH 
achieves a speed of:


1 Mile at 30MPH will take 120 seconds.  8Tbits / 120S = 73.3 Gbits/S

A UPS driver carrying a 20TB drive 60 miles traveling at 60MPH would 
achieve a speed of:


60 miles at 60 MPH will take 3600 seconds.  160TBits/3600S = 48GBits/S

Fill that UPS truck with 100 20TB drives and the data rate increases by 
100 time or 4.88TBits/S.



However we are not discussing the latency 




On 5/31/2023 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards 
hurtling down the highway?

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Ali via cctalk]

>AH! NUTS! :)>Runs and ducks...That's actually pretty funny and much milder 
>then what I was screaming...-Ali

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/31/23 17:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
> hurtling down the highway?

I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards 
hurtling down the highway?

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 31, 2023, at 6:51 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Believe it or not I thought of that and tons of paper tape
> 
> Here are some other some other good comparisons:
> 
> Reels of DECtape
> Reels of magnetic tape.
> 300 baud audio cassettes.
> Hours to print on a 110 baud Teletype
> Miles of Teletype paper or fanfold paper
> Tons of drum storage
> 14" platters end to end or tonnage
> Tons of 6810 (128 x 8 bit) or 2102 (1Kx1) memory chips
> length in HP-41C magnetic card strips
> Miles of ultrasonic memory wire
> Number of bubbles of bubble memory
> Tons of 1 bit memory tubes (and their current draw)
> 
> I guess that's enough frivolity for now.

Tons of Selectron or Williams tubes?  :-)  And what about tons of mercury delay 
line?

paul

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
comparison:

1K            102.4"
10K      85'
100K        853'
1M           1.6 Miles
10M     16.5 Miles
100M       165 Miles
1G            1,695 Miles
10G          16,947 Miles
100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T         69.8 Earth Circumferences



On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?


On Wed, 31 May 2023, ben via cctalk wrote:

No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank you.


What is the capacity of the NSA Utah Data Center?

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Paper tape

1K            102.4"
10K      85'
100K        853'
1M           1.6 Miles
10M     16.5 Miles
100M       165 Miles
1G            1,695 Miles
10G          16,947 Miles
100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T         69.8 Earth Circumferences


How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?


1K12.8 cards (assuming 1 byte per column, and not reserving any columns
10k   128 cards
100K  1280 cards
1M6.556 boxes
10M   65.56 boxes
100M  655.6 boxes
1G6,700 boxes
10G   67,000 boxes
100G  670,000 boxes
1T6,871,948 boxes

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[ben via cctalk]

On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
comparison:

1K            102.4"
10K      85'
100K        853'
1M           1.6 Miles
10M     16.5 Miles
100M       165 Miles
1G            1,695 Miles
10G          16,947 Miles
100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T         69.8 Earth Circumferences


How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?

--Chuck


No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank you.

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

Believe it or not I thought of that and tons of paper tape

Here are some other some other good comparisons:

Reels of DECtape
Reels of magnetic tape.
300 baud audio cassettes.
Hours to print on a 110 baud Teletype
Miles of Teletype paper or fanfold paper
Tons of drum storage
14" platters end to end or tonnage
Tons of 6810 (128 x 8 bit) or 2102 (1Kx1) memory chips
length in HP-41C magnetic card strips
Miles of ultrasonic memory wire
Number of bubbles of bubble memory
Tons of 1 bit memory tubes (and their current draw)

I guess that's enough frivolity for now.


On 5/31/2023 5:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
comparison:

1K            102.4"
10K      85'
100K        853'
1M           1.6 Miles
10M     16.5 Miles
100M       165 Miles
1G            1,695 Miles
10G          16,947 Miles
100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T         69.8 Earth Circumferences

How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
> comparison:
> 
> 1K            102.4"
> 10K      85'
> 100K        853'
> 1M           1.6 Miles
> 10M     16.5 Miles
> 100M       165 Miles
> 1G            1,695 Miles
> 10G          16,947 Miles
> 100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences
> 1T         69.8 Earth Circumferences

How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> On 05/31/2023 3:33 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> 
> I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
> comparison:
> 
> 1K 102.4"
> 10K 85'
> 100K 853'
> 1M 1.6 Miles
> 10M 16.5 Miles
> 100M 165 Miles
> 1G 1,695 Miles
> 10G 16,947 Miles
> 100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
> 1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
> 
NSA's intel on US citizens (that they don't collect):  37 AU
Googles intel on World citizens (that they don't collect): 419 LY

Will

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for 
comparison:


1K            102.4"
10K      85'
100K        853'
1M           1.6 Miles
10M     16.5 Miles
100M       165 Miles
1G            1,695 Miles
10G          16,947 Miles
100G        6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T         69.8 Earth Circumferences


On 5/31/2023 2:52 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the
drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.

A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher
held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll
ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-)


A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now.

Indeed. The camera archive (2 people shooting DSLRs - strictly as a hobby,
not professionals) here is at 1.5T now here and of course only ever growing.

Even the compressed archive of my diploma thesis (written in LaTeX,
as one does - so no bloated MS Word files) won't fit on a 1.44M floppy
at 1.9M in size and that happened not that many years after the above
overly optimistic statement.

And anybody doing _any_ amount of programming outside of ones job
surely has written way more source code than would ever fit on a 1.44M
floppy, even after LZ4 compression. I know I did and I don't get to
write much code these days.


Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more
storage needs ?

"Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist,
data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually
much sooner than one likes). ;-)

Kind regards,
   Alex.

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 31 May 2023, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:

"Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist,
data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually
much sooner than one likes). ;-)


Data will expand to fill slightly more than all available storage 
capacity.- Boyle's law



MICROS~1 works hard to make sure that their "requirements" keep up with 
Moore's law.



After Moore's death, will his law continue to be enforced?

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[ben via cctalk]

On 2023-05-31 1:52 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the
drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.


A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher
held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll
ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-)



Looking at a BYTE from 1983, there was a Japanese 3 inch floppy, 500K raw.
That must of lasted as long as the ad.


Kind regards,
   Alex.

Ben.

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Alexander Schreiber via cctalk]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the
> drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
> binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
> half of that disk.

A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher
held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll
ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-)

> A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now.

Indeed. The camera archive (2 people shooting DSLRs - strictly as a hobby,
not professionals) here is at 1.5T now here and of course only ever growing.

Even the compressed archive of my diploma thesis (written in LaTeX,
as one does - so no bloated MS Word files) won't fit on a 1.44M floppy
at 1.9M in size and that happened not that many years after the above
overly optimistic statement.

And anybody doing _any_ amount of programming outside of ones job
surely has written way more source code than would ever fit on a 1.44M
floppy, even after LZ4 compression. I know I did and I don't get to
write much code these days.

> Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more
> storage needs ?

"Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist,
data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually
much sooner than one likes). ;-)

Kind regards,
  Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[ben via cctalk]

On 2023-05-30 11:19 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote:

I heard that Duracell now has a "bitterant" coating on its 2032
batteries;
so that you will spit it out.
  
Fred,


That's been there for a while. It is aimed at babies swallowing coin
batteries of all sorts. Mine was pure stupidity. I had spent the whole
weekend working on and rebuilding the image on an RPi that I use for a DNS
server. I took out the Micro-SD card with the plans to image it for backup.
I was munching on a bowl of nuts, tossing them back as it were, while I
checked a few last minute things and suddenly I hear a non-nutty crunch.
Spit it out and there is a tooth mark right through the Micro-SD. Apparently
what I thought was a pistachio was my Micro-SD card. Suffice to say it was
no longer working and I had no backup. Choice expletives were spewed
throughout that day LOL

-Ali


AH! NUTS! :)
Runs and ducks...

[cctalk] Re: Turbo 3.0 Command Line Compiler

[John Many Jars via cctalk]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 16:27, Jon Elson via cctalk 
wrote:

> \Well, this doesn't directly answer your question, but a few
> years ago I resurrected a pretty complex Turbo Pascal
> program that I used to run on Win 95 and Win 2K.
>
> I used Linux and the Free Pascal Compiler (FPC) and it did
> an amazing job of correctly handling all the Borland
> extensions (uses, unit, interface, $define, etc).
>
> Jon
>
>
Thanks Jon,

I got it fixed, thanks to Mr. Buckle.  I was trying to assemble it under
RunCPM, but for some reason, it didn't like that.  When I did under
z80pack, it worked just fine.

Well, kind of fine.  The guy who did this seems to have patched it to like
running on an Amstrad CPC, so if you use GotoXY it doesn't work.  I just
wrote my own...

Take Care,

Mark


-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net


"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

[cctalk] Re: Turbo 3.0 Command Line Compiler

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 5/31/23 06:25, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote:

I don't normally beg for help, but I'm going to beg for help, because this
would be really useful if I could get it to work.

This guy:

TURBO PASCAL (mark-ogden.uk)


Has posted .MAC files that supposedly build a command line version of Turbo
Pascal that lacks the editor, which would be really nice as I use RunCPM
and an external editor to work on Turbo Pascal 3 for CP/M

Well, this doesn't directly answer your question, but a few 
years ago I resurrected a pretty complex Turbo Pascal 
program that I used to run on Win 95 and Win 2K.


I used Linux and the Free Pascal Compiler (FPC) and it did 
an amazing job of correctly handling all the Borland 
extensions (uses, unit, interface, $define, etc).


Jon

[cctalk] Re: Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape?

[nico de jong via cctalk]

Privat mail sent
/Nico

On 2023-05-31 10:58, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote:

Hello,

I would like to send you the tapes for dumping ( please provide me with
your mailing details ), is it possible to send them back after this ?

Best regards,
Plamen


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:18 PM nico de jong via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


We have some tapedrives on our conversion system. M4 and Qualstar.
Please mail me directly if you are interested
Regards
Nico de Jong
www.datamuseum.dk


On 2023-05-30 00:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

List,

I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel
of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping.

Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle
reading this thing?  Besides, I'm up to my ears in work.

Thanks,
Chuck

[cctalk] Turbo 3.0 Command Line Compiler

[John Many Jars via cctalk]

I don't normally beg for help, but I'm going to beg for help, because this
would be really useful if I could get it to work.

This guy:

TURBO PASCAL (mark-ogden.uk)


Has posted .MAC files that supposedly build a command line version of Turbo
Pascal that lacks the editor, which would be really nice as I use RunCPM
and an external editor to work on Turbo Pascal 3 for CP/M

I've tried building and linking this with M80 and L80, and it doesn't seem
to work.

I really don't remember what I'm doing with these tools, which I haven't
used for 30 years.  More probably.  I'm not sure if the author is even
still alive, and I have no contact details for him...as this is a mirror of
an old page.

Anyone got any ideas?  I'll buy you a beer if you meet me someplace in
England.

Thanks,

Mark (aka John)

[cctalk] Re: Identify these drive read heads pdp11 related?

[Rick Murphy via cctalk]

On 5/30/2023 11:11 PM, devin davison wrote:

That would make sense, as I picked up 3 RK05 drives in the lot.


Having looked at the entire set, just the first few are RK05 heads. 
Rectangular white plug, and a metal shaft tail.


I didn't initially look at the full set and they're obviously from 
different drives.

   -Rick

[cctalk] Re: Anyone in or near Spain that can read 6250 GCR 9-track tape?

[Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk]

Hello,

I would like to send you the tapes for dumping ( please provide me with
your mailing details ), is it possible to send them back after this ?

Best regards,
Plamen


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:18 PM nico de jong via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> We have some tapedrives on our conversion system. M4 and Qualstar.
> Please mail me directly if you are interested
> Regards
> Nico de Jong
> www.datamuseum.dk
>
>
> On 2023-05-30 00:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > List,
> >
> > I'd rather not put a customer through the throes of sending a 10.5" reel
> > of tape written on a S/370 mainframe through international shipping.
> >
> > Anyone in the Barcelona area with the equipment and ability to handle
> > reading this thing?  Besides, I'm up to my ears in work.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chuck
>
>
>