[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party
On 9/8/2023 5:07 PM, Zane Healy wrote: On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades. We had one until recently. https://www.vax.com.au/ http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) bill I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting on top of the Keyboard I’m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Extended II Keyboard via USB converter), it says “Loyal to VAX”. I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7. It was shutdown recently, but only due to high temps, and it’s back online now. I've been thinking of bringing up a VAX again. I think I can fix my VXT and I think I now have some hardware that will let me put a PC class LCD monitor on it. VAXStations just aren't much fun without the graphics. bill
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
On 9/8/23 15:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! 😅 > > It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" > fully functional FDC. > It would make it possible to add floppies to devices without them, > and/or add more or different floppies to devices that do have them. > The basic software for it could be in flash RAM in the same USB device. I use a STM32F4 MCU for my floppy work (and my tape work also). Half a meg of program flash and 192KB of SRAM on-chip, running at 168MHz. But my interface is strictly by image file. The USB connection is strictly for file transfer and terminal operation. One does a whole disk at a time, since the bulk storage interface is SD Card. Currently, I'm limited to 32GB there. I'm interested in recovering data, not running games. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
On 9/8/23 15:00, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > The drive is a Qume Qumetrak 242 so I assume soft sector? I'm open to > correction. > Mostly. Most drives can, with the proper logic be made to read and write hard-sector disks. You just don't get separate SECTOR/ and INDEX/ outputs. I read hard sector floppies in an 842, for example and it lacks the hard-sector support logic. On the other hand, my Siemens FDD 200 have the logic, along with a configurable sector divider (32,16,8 sectors) as well as an optional data separator. There is a lot of variation in 8" drives. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party
Zane is it accessible remotely? Just curious.. -Ken On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 5:17 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via > >> cctalk wrote: > >>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many > decades. We had one until recently. > >>> https://www.vax.com.au/ > >> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html > > > > > > "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) > > > > > > bill > > > > > > I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting > on top of the Keyboard I’m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Extended II > Keyboard via USB converter), it says “Loyal to VAX”. > > I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7. It was shutdown recently, > but only due to high temps, and it’s back online now. > > Zane > > > -- End of line JOB TERMINATED
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 4:02 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I always wanted the Sorrento Valley FDC for Apple2 > I've seen one in the wild before, but the guy didn't want to sell it with the pile of Lisas I bought from him. It's possible I have documentation for it. Does "more popular" mean sold more units, or does it mean better liked by > its owners? :-) > I'm positive the Disk ][ was better liked by its owners than that glorified tape drive called the 1541. > I never had a Commodore 64! but, I had an MSD drive for Commodore 64 that > interfaced with it with IEC? and IEEE488. > I sold one of those within the past couple years. > To be fully complete with the level of esoterics that he does mention > would require a LOT more content. Whereas a good proofread, and rewrite > of some sections could make it a good reference for many parts. I think it's something the author wrote in one fell swoop, i.e. "everything I know about floppy disks". Sellam
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I have had better luck with a P-III motherboard that connects to the 34-50 pin adapter in the middle and 8" on the other end. This way you can trick the BIOS of the computer to think the 8" drive is a 1.2Mb 5 1/4". With this set up I have made a bootable DOS 6.22 8" disk, so I know it works. THEN use the USB port to copy files as a separate drive. The USB to floppy devices are pretty good for 3.5" but I would not expect a direct adapter from the 8" to be reliable. A USB to floppy device that supports 5.25" 1.2M "should" work. A USB to floppy device that supports the 3.5" "mode 3"/NEC98 (360RPM 3.5") might be coercible into working. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: The Apple Disk ][ information needs some editing as well. And then there's the part suggesting the Commodore 1541 was more popular than the Disk ][. What utter pishposh. There are many details to flesh out things such as Apple, such as 13 VS 16 sector per track and the corresponding differences in the GCR. 35 track VS 40 (also applicable for TRS80) I always wanted the Sorrento Valley FDC for Apple2 Does "more popular" mean sold more units, or does it mean better liked by its owners? :-) I never had a Commodore 64! but, I had an MSD drive for Commodore 64 that interfaced with it with IEC? and IEEE488. What about the Amiga? with MFM, but not IBM/WD track/sector structure It's odd that he brings up things such as 100tpi drives (VS 96tpi) and 3" (but not 3.25" on which Dysan bet the company), the very early 40 track 3.5", the use of FDC for certain tape drives, LS120, but not floptical, ZIP, etc. And, of course the Kodak high density 5.25" and Amlyn juke box :-) To be fully complete with the level of esoterics that he does mention would require a LOT more content. Whereas a good proofread, and rewrite of some sections could make it a good reference for many parts. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
I have had better luck with a P-III motherboard that connects to the 34-50 pin adapter in the middle and 8" on the other end. This way you can trick the BIOS of the computer to think the 8" drive is a 1.2Mb 5 1/4". With this set up I have made a bootable DOS 6.22 8" disk, so I know it works. THEN use the USB port to copy files as a separate drive. The USB to floppy devices are pretty good for 3.5" but I would not expect a direct adapter from the 8" to be reliable. Bill On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 3:59 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > Is such a thing possible? > > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Any pointers are appreciated! > > Anders > www.andersknelson.com >
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" fully functional FDC. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson wrote: I agree, and that generic USB FDC is already available: https://github.com/dhansel/ArduinoFDC If I can simply select 5 1/4 floppy mode and it'll work with an 8" disk, I guess I don't need anything else? An 8" drive and a 5.25" 1.2M drive look the same to whatever they are connected to, with a few trivial exceptions 8" is 50 pin; 5.25" is 34 pin. The very first 1.2M 5.25 that I encountered (purchased at a swap) was a pre-release/prototype? Mitsubishi 4854, and had a 50 pin connector! I heard from some of the usual unreliable sources that when the AT BIOS was being modified for 1.2M, some of the programmers thought that IBM was adding an 8" drive! 8" is 77 track, 1.2M is 80 track. Therefore, trying to format an 8" disk as 1.2M without special software will fail on tracks 77-79 For writing, TG43 provides write pre-compensation. not needed for reading. BTW, 8" power connectors were not standardized, so different brands of drives will need different connectors. READY/DISK-CHANGED on pin 34 was not standardized, and can confuse the system is wrong. Ideally, you would also want 8" SSSD, as that was "THE STANDARD" format for CP/M. The PC formats are/were all 512 bytes per sector; other formats had 1024, 256, and occasionally 128. Many PC FDCs can not handle FM/SD, and many can't handle 128 bytes per sector. I;m forgetting numerous other items, so those are left as an exercise for the reader :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
The Apple Disk ][ information needs some editing as well. And then there's the part suggesting the Commodore 1541 was more popular than the Disk ][. What utter pishposh. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 3:04 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > When Ronald Reagan got into politics, I wrote him a postcard pleading him > > NOT TO. I said, "Hollywood needs you." > > It's a real shame that didn't work. > > AIUI the repeal of Glass-Steagal caused a lot of the problems we're in > today, and while that happened under Clinton, the process _started_ > under Ronnie. > Which were continuations of policies under Carter, that started with Ford, that began with Nixon, that initiated under Johnson, that originated with Kennedy, that were rooted in what Eisenhower did, which was based on Truman policies, inspired by Roosevelt... Sellam
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
I agree, and that generic USB FDC is already available: https://github.com/dhansel/ArduinoFDC If I can simply select 5 1/4 floppy mode and it'll work with an 8" disk, I guess I don't need anything else? On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 6:20 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > > >> Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? > >> It’s not like there’s so many 8 inch floppies around to make it > feasible. > >> You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to > >> the different physical formats let alone the software formats. > >> It would be difficult. > > On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Wayne, > > For sure the controller would have to do a lot more, but I know firmware > > pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! 😅 > > It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" > fully functional FDC. > It would make it possible to add floppies to devices without them, and/or > add more or different floppies to devices that do have them. > The basic software for it could be in flash RAM in the same USB device. > > Source code for the IBM PC BIOS was published. > For floppies, you need Int13h, and there is a table of parameters pointed > to by Int1Eh. > > Handling formats other than PC, auch as CP/M, P-System, TRSDOS, MS > Stand-Alone BASIC, Mac "1.44MB", etc. would require additional code. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? It’s not like there’s so many 8 inch floppies around to make it feasible. You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to the different physical formats let alone the software formats. It would be difficult. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: Hi Wayne, For sure the controller would have to do a lot more, but I know firmware pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! 😅 It would still be handy to have a USB device that operates as a "normal" fully functional FDC. It would make it possible to add floppies to devices without them, and/or add more or different floppies to devices that do have them. The basic software for it could be in flash RAM in the same USB device. Source code for the IBM PC BIOS was published. For floppies, you need Int13h, and there is a table of parameters pointed to by Int1Eh. Handling formats other than PC, auch as CP/M, P-System, TRSDOS, MS Stand-Alone BASIC, Mac "1.44MB", etc. would require additional code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > When Ronald Reagan got into politics, I wrote him a postcard pleading him > NOT TO. I said, "Hollywood needs you." It's a real shame that didn't work. AIUI the repeal of Glass-Steagal caused a lot of the problems we're in today, and while that happened under Clinton, the process _started_ under Ronnie. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
Hi Chuck, The drive is a Qume Qumetrak 242 so I assume soft sector? I'm open to correction. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 4:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > very few of the lines need to be rearraanged, so you can just twist a few > wires in a cable. One exception is that if you need the TG43 signal for > writing, then you will need additional circuitry. > > > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but > I'm > > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block > device). > > Is such a thing possible? > > Sure. Ine the very early days of external USB floppies, there existed a > rare few in which the circuitry was a general purpose FDC. All currently > produced ones are locked in to only supporting a couple of PC 3.5" > formats. Look for "mode 3", which is support for the NEC format, which is > compatible with 8" formats, IFF you can modify the hardware to work. > > > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > Yes. It is called "IBM format", but that is confusing, since it is > talking about the track structure that IBM designed (3740?), NOT about IBM > PC (which does use that structure) > > > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of > formats > > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Not everybody will agree, but, . . . > NEC modified their 3.5" drives to be 360RPM, same as their 5.25" 1.2M > drives, and 8" drives. Thus, they used the same format on all three > sizes! > > http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
Hi Wayne, For sure the controller would have to do a lot more, but I know firmware pretty well and BIOS/ancient OSes not at all! 😅 On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 4:22 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 8, 2023, at 13:16, Wayne S wrote: > > > >> but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > > Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? > It’s not like there’s so many 8 inch floppies around to make it feasible. > You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to > the different physical formats let alone the software formats. > It would be difficult. > > >
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
He has an "About Me" page,and even his CV, but goes to some effort to avoid stating his NAME! (Jonathan Pallant) On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: I noticed that, too. I think it's [a] the modern internet way, and [2] may be connected with his efforts to get into politics... maybe? https://github.com/thejpster When Ronald Reagan got into politics, I wrote him a postcard pleading him NOT TO. I said, "Hollywood needs you." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > He has an "About Me" page,and even his CV, but goes to some effort to > avoid stating his NAME! (Jonathan Pallant) I noticed that, too. I think it's [a] the modern internet way, and [2] may be connected with his efforts to get into politics... maybe? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
It's got some really good stuff, but some things that are awkward, although few totally WRONG. [...] Overall, a good start, for MOST aspects. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: That is high praise indeed, I think! :-) He has an "About Me" page,and even his CV, but goes to some effort to avoid stating his NAME! (Jonathan Pallant) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 22:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > It's got some really good stuff, but some things that are awkward, > although few totally WRONG. [...] > Overall, a good start, for MOST aspects. That is high praise indeed, I think! :-) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Everything I know about floppy disks 2023-08-28 Floppy disk drives are curious things. We know them as the slots that ingest those small almost-square plastic "floppy disks" and we only really see them now in Computer Museums. But there's a lot going on in that humble square of plastic and I wanted to write down what I've learned so far. https://thejpster.org.uk/blog/blog-2023-08-28/ It's got some really good stuff, but some things that are awkward, although few totally WRONG. For example, he says that 8" drives have 40 tracks. It's 77, and that becomes important. He mentions that 100tpi drives are 77 track, but doesn't mention WHY they aren't 80. He says that 1.2M drives are 360 RPM, but mis-states that as being to compensate for inadequacy of the media, rather than that it was to match 8" He gets the track width right as the reason why 1.2M drives are bad at writing 40 track disks, but erroneously thinks that the coercivity of the HD disk is a reason. (1.2M drives handle both 300 and 600 Oersted disks) He correctly explains "quad density" drives, but doesn't implicate marketing for the ambiguous naming. I don't care for his explanation of MFM. "If you programmed the controller to run at 250 kbit/sec on a 360 rpm drive, the end of the track would crash into the start of the track and the data would be corrupted." could more correctly say that the track is too short and would overlap, not "crash into". His table of disk formats is somewhat sparse, and on PC fails to note the importance of minor version number of DOS (720K was dos 3.20; 1.4M was DOS 3.30). He does an excellent job of explaining why a "1.44MB" disk is 1.4M, NOT 1.44M. Overall, a good start, for MOST aspects. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 6:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via >> cctalk wrote: >>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many >>> decades. We had one until recently. >>> https://www.vax.com.au/ >> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html > > > "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) > > > bill > > I rather like the old Trade Show button from WordPerfect that is sitting on top of the Keyboard I’m using to type this (an old Apple ADB Extended II Keyboard via USB converter), it says “Loyal to VAX”. I normally have a physical VAX running 24x7. It was shutdown recently, but only due to high temps, and it’s back online now. Zane
[cctalk] For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"
« Everything I know about floppy disks 2023-08-28 Floppy disk drives are curious things. We know them as the slots that ingest those small almost-square plastic "floppy disks" and we only really see them now in Computer Museums. But there's a lot going on in that humble square of plastic and I wanted to write down what I've learned so far. » https://thejpster.org.uk/blog/blog-2023-08-28/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L Is: $7900 (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000)
But more reasonable. Get down to 4k and it's interesting. C On 9/8/2023 4:12 PM, Milo Velimirović via cctalk wrote: On Sep 8, 2023, at 1:15 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Price change, https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 Bill Still too spicy :)
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 13:16, Wayne S wrote: > >> but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). Anders, for what practical purpose would you do that? It’s not like there’s so many 8 inch floppies around to make it feasible. You would have to have a LOT of intelligence in the Usb interface due to the different physical formats let alone the software formats. It would be difficult.
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 13:15, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p >> connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> >> 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > very few of the lines need to be rearraanged, so you can just twist a few > wires in a cable. One exception is that if you need the TG43 signal for > writing, then you will need additional circuitry. > >> I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm >> somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to >> create an open-source USB >> adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" >> disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). >> Is such a thing possible? > > Sure. Ine the very early days of external USB floppies, there existed a rare > few in which the circuitry was a general purpose FDC. All currently produced > ones are locked in to only supporting a couple of PC 3.5" formats. Look for > "mode 3", which is support for the NEC format, which is compatible with 8" > formats, IFF you can modify the hardware to work. > >> I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip >> which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs >> headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > Yes. It is called "IBM format", but that is confusing, since it is talking > about the track structure that IBM designed (3740?), NOT about IBM PC (which > does use that structure) > >> I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats >> that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the >> community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Not everybody will agree, but, . . . > NEC modified their 3.5" drives to be 360RPM, same as their 5.25" 1.2M drives, > and 8" drives. Thus, they used the same format on all three sizes! > > http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: Hi all, I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. very few of the lines need to be rearraanged, so you can just twist a few wires in a cable. One exception is that if you need the TG43 signal for writing, then you will need additional circuitry. I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). Is such a thing possible? Sure. Ine the very early days of external USB floppies, there existed a rare few in which the circuitry was a general purpose FDC. All currently produced ones are locked in to only supporting a couple of PC 3.5" formats. Look for "mode 3", which is support for the NEC format, which is compatible with 8" formats, IFF you can modify the hardware to work. I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. Yes. It is called "IBM format", but that is confusing, since it is talking about the track structure that IBM designed (3740?), NOT about IBM PC (which does use that structure) I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? Not everybody will agree, but, . . . NEC modified their 3.5" drives to be 360RPM, same as their 5.25" 1.2M drives, and 8" drives. Thus, they used the same format on all three sizes! http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#8 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L Is: $7900 (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000)
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 1:15 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > Price change, > https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 > Bill Still too spicy :)
[cctalk] Re: 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
On 9/8/23 12:58, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p > connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> > 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. > > I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm > somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to > create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" > disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). > Is such a thing possible? > > I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip > which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs > headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. > > I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats > that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the > community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? > > Any pointers are appreciated! Hard-sector or soft-sector? Easiest thing for most cases is to hook it to a legacy floppy on a PC. Call the disk a 1.2MB 5.25" and you'll be fine. --Chuck
[cctalk] 8" DSDD to USB MSD?
Hi all, I just bought a very clean, DSDD 8" disk drive off eBay and it has a 50p connector which I guess is the common Shugart type? I also found a 50p-> 34p adaptor PCB design someone documented online. I haven't delved much into floppy formats (high level or low level) but I'm somewhat familiar with filesystems from FAT12. My ultimate goal is to create an open-source USB adaptor that reads/writes the contents of an 8" disk but presents itself to an OS as a Mass Storage Device (block device). Is such a thing possible? I once created a terrible custom format for storing data on a flash chip which required no low-level format, but I expect a magnetic disk needs headers/trailers to know when a track starts/stops so it can skip around. I checked out the KyroFlux website and it seems there are dozens of formats that were used for 8" disks - is there a favorite format among the community that allows full use of a 1.2MB 8" disk? Any pointers are appreciated! Anders www.andersknelson.com
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
Re: ipad 3 lack of support. What gets me the most is that Apple doesn’t seem to allow old versions of app on the store anymore. Seems that they force developers to use the newer SDK which only supports IOS 10 and above. Hate That with a passion. Take care. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 12:15, Wayne S wrote: > > Re: PDF > I use a free app Pdfreader to view and usually just email the pdfs i want to > read and save them that way. > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:48, Liam Proven via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 19:23, Wayne S wrote: >>> >>> I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it >>> until apple 🍎 made IOS 10 which doesn’t run on it. Then, gradually, some >>> apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above and simply >>> stopped working. >> >> It is funny you should say that: I have one too, and just today, I dug >> it out of its pouch for the first time since July. >> >> I had left it on! But it was in airplane mode, and so still had 15% >> battery. Amazing. >> >> I am trying to work out how to put my assortment of PDFs onto it so I >> can use it as an ebook reader. This is... not trivial. >> >> It was my mother's. When it was no longer able to run Skype, I bought >> her an iPad 5th Gen instead. This is the first model with the iPad Air >> form-factor. >> >> Her eyesight is very bad now -- retinal haemorrhage plus macular >> degeneration -- so then I got her a first-model iPad Pro. But, to my >> surprise, she prefers the smaller one, as it's much lighter to hold. >> >> I asked for and was given the cast-off iPad 3. >> >>> I probably won’t buy another Ipad just because of that. >> >> Well, I see your point. The device is badly crippled now, yes. >> Especially as I preferred iOS 9 -- the newer ones have a lot of bloat, >> like window tiling and pop-up floating windows, that just confuse her. >> >> I can see being aggrieved by the discontinuation of support. >> Personally I don't like the things much but I am trying to find a use >> for this old one. But if I _liked_ it, that's different. >> >> FWIW I always buy them used, from these guys: https://webuy.com/ The >> company was founded by a friend of mine, sadly long dead now. >> >>> Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing ✍️ >> >> Thank you! >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven >> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 >> Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
Re: PDF I use a free app Pdfreader to view and usually just email the pdfs i want to read and save them that way. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:48, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 19:23, Wayne S wrote: >> >> I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it >> until apple 🍎 made IOS 10 which doesn’t run on it. Then, gradually, some >> apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above and simply >> stopped working. > > It is funny you should say that: I have one too, and just today, I dug > it out of its pouch for the first time since July. > > I had left it on! But it was in airplane mode, and so still had 15% > battery. Amazing. > > I am trying to work out how to put my assortment of PDFs onto it so I > can use it as an ebook reader. This is... not trivial. > > It was my mother's. When it was no longer able to run Skype, I bought > her an iPad 5th Gen instead. This is the first model with the iPad Air > form-factor. > > Her eyesight is very bad now -- retinal haemorrhage plus macular > degeneration -- so then I got her a first-model iPad Pro. But, to my > surprise, she prefers the smaller one, as it's much lighter to hold. > > I asked for and was given the cast-off iPad 3. > >> I probably won’t buy another Ipad just because of that. > > Well, I see your point. The device is badly crippled now, yes. > Especially as I preferred iOS 9 -- the newer ones have a lot of bloat, > like window tiling and pop-up floating windows, that just confuse her. > > I can see being aggrieved by the discontinuation of support. > Personally I don't like the things much but I am trying to find a use > for this old one. But if I _liked_ it, that's different. > > FWIW I always buy them used, from these guys: https://webuy.com/ The > company was founded by a friend of mine, sadly long dead now. > >> Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing ✍️ > > Thank you! > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 19:23, Wayne S wrote: > > I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it > until apple 🍎 made IOS 10 which doesn’t run on it. Then, gradually, some > apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above and simply > stopped working. It is funny you should say that: I have one too, and just today, I dug it out of its pouch for the first time since July. I had left it on! But it was in airplane mode, and so still had 15% battery. Amazing. I am trying to work out how to put my assortment of PDFs onto it so I can use it as an ebook reader. This is... not trivial. It was my mother's. When it was no longer able to run Skype, I bought her an iPad 5th Gen instead. This is the first model with the iPad Air form-factor. Her eyesight is very bad now -- retinal haemorrhage plus macular degeneration -- so then I got her a first-model iPad Pro. But, to my surprise, she prefers the smaller one, as it's much lighter to hold. I asked for and was given the cast-off iPad 3. > I probably won’t buy another Ipad just because of that. Well, I see your point. The device is badly crippled now, yes. Especially as I preferred iOS 9 -- the newer ones have a lot of bloat, like window tiling and pop-up floating windows, that just confuse her. I can see being aggrieved by the discontinuation of support. Personally I don't like the things much but I am trying to find a use for this old one. But if I _liked_ it, that's different. FWIW I always buy them used, from these guys: https://webuy.com/ The company was founded by a friend of mine, sadly long dead now. > Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing ✍️ Thank you! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
I have an ipad 3 and it was absolutely great. Everything worked well on it until apple 🍎 made IOS 10 which doesn’t run on it. Then, gradually, some apps, like Amazon Prime TV, were upgraded to use 10 and above and simply stopped working. I probably won’t buy another Ipad just because of that. Liem, sorry about your forearm. Get well and keep writing ✍️ Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:14, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 02:59, Wayne S via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I used a newton and still have it a box. > > I have 2 of them myself. > >> It was heavy and very slow. Graffiti didn’t work very well either. > > The OMP was. > > I later bought a Newton 2100 and it's a very different beast. It's > quite usable by comparison. > > Last year I played with a friends ReMarkable e-ink tablet, and I > nearly wept. It is so utterly braindead by comparison. We have gone > backwards, not forwards. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] PDP-8/L Is: $7900 (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000)
Price change, https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 Bill
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 17:25, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where > information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I > use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. 100% agreement from this end. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 02:59, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > I used a newton and still have it a box. I have 2 of them myself. > It was heavy and very slow. Graffiti didn’t work very well either. The OMP was. I later bought a Newton 2100 and it's a very different beast. It's quite usable by comparison. Last year I played with a friends ReMarkable e-ink tablet, and I nearly wept. It is so utterly braindead by comparison. We have gone backwards, not forwards. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: OT: Moon (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 01:29, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Then, one of the Sci-Fi magazines [...] in which the capsule settled down > onto the moon, and > immediately sank irrevocably below kilometer thick layer of dust. I am strongly reminded of _A Fall of Moondust_ by Arthur C. Clarke. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: SCO on Virtualbox
On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 01:05, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > > I have been experimenting with GhostBSD 64bit. It runs quite well under > Virtualbox Sorry for the very slow reply... Work is burying me, and I am somewhat crippled due to a pulverised right forearm. I am glad you've found something you're happy with! I do actually have GhostBSD on a Thinkpad here. I personally wasn't very impressed by it, but I have got somewhat more used to real FreeBSD and do occasionally use that these days. But if you're happy with it, great! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party
On 9/8/2023 9:29 AM, Raymond Wiker via cctalk wrote: On 8 Sep 2023, at 15:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades. We had one until recently. https://www.vax.com.au/ http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) I remember seeing that slogan in the 80s, when I was a student in Glasgow. When it first showed up it was all the rage on comp.os.vms. And then I got the announcement signs on the side of the Central Scranton Expressway here in PA announcing "Coming soon - VMS". Of course, that turned out to be The "Virtual Messaging System" which I am sure people see on their highways every day any more. bill
[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party
> On 8 Sep 2023, at 15:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via >> cctalk wrote: >>> Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many >>> decades. We had one until recently. >>> https://www.vax.com.au/ >> http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html > > > "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) I remember seeing that slogan in the 80s, when I was a student in Glasgow.
[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Fest Midwest "DECnut" pizza party
On 9/7/2023 9:20 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:49 PM ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk wrote: Here in Oz, VAX has been a popular brand of vacuum cleaner for many decades. We had one until recently. https://www.vax.com.au/ http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/VAX.html "Nothing sucks like a VAX!!" :-) bill
