[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Ali via cctalk]

>
> Don't forget to bring a towel.
>
> Sellam

The fact that we all probably got that reference is the amazing part.

-Ali

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 8:03 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT"
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred
>

Boobs And Invitation Technician?

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 7:48 PM Jim Brain via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank
> disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small
> USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go
> everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel
> power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives.
>

Don't forget to bring a towel.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

Then there  was Phantasm for basic  Gavin wrote!

Sent from AOL on Android 
 
  On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 8:44 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk 
wrote:   BASIC was always a popular language in the Hewlett-Packard world. From
the HP 2000 timesharing BASIC that was popular in educational settings
similar to the original DTSS, To BASIC/3000 on the HP 3000 which was a
first-class language with both interpreter and compiler (producing
very fast code), to the HP 250/260 which used BASIC as their primary
development language, Rocky Mountain BASIC in the technical world, the
Series 80 microcomputers, HP Business Basic again on the 3000 which
was probably largest and most complex language system ever created for
the Classic 16-bit 3000 systems and which was intended to be both a
migration path for 250/260 applications to MPE and to be a new
standard Basic across multiple HP platforms.

From 1980-1986 or so I worked for an HP OEM / ISV whose "ERP" (we
didn't call them that yet) package was written in BASIC on the HP
3000. It was limited to Letter-digit variable names but was quite
performant and had its own API into the IMAGE DBMS etc.

BASIC got used for lots of "serious" development.
  

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Am I the only one on this list who designed and implemented a business
BASIC?  (I did have two programmers to work with me.  Did it in about 4
months).

Multiuser on an 8085; later versions were re-hosted on Xenix.

https://archive.org/details/durango-star-basic-dx-85-m-reference-manual-5th-edition

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Gavin Scott via cctalk]

BASIC was always a popular language in the Hewlett-Packard world. From
the HP 2000 timesharing BASIC that was popular in educational settings
similar to the original DTSS, To BASIC/3000 on the HP 3000 which was a
first-class language with both interpreter and compiler (producing
very fast code), to the HP 250/260 which used BASIC as their primary
development language, Rocky Mountain BASIC in the technical world, the
Series 80 microcomputers, HP Business Basic again on the 3000 which
was probably largest and most complex language system ever created for
the Classic 16-bit 3000 systems and which was intended to be both a
migration path for 250/260 applications to MPE and to be a new
standard Basic across multiple HP platforms.

>From 1980-1986 or so I worked for an HP OEM / ISV whose "ERP" (we
didn't call them that yet) package was written in BASIC on the HP
3000. It was limited to Letter-digit variable names but was quite
performant and had its own API into the IMAGE DBMS etc.

BASIC got used for lots of "serious" development.

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:

Games are always a good draw, even if that seems like cheating.


In the early days of the Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, (and I may have the 
two reversed in the following anecdote), Atari had a nice display of a 
bouncing checkered beach ball.  Amiga had almost nothing.
But, the second day, everybody except the booth bimbos at Commodore looked 
haggard, but their machine was showing a bouncing checkered beach ball. 
And it was bouncing faster than Atari's!


If you really want to be strategic, have a different demo available for 
each day :-)



Sorry that I forgot to mention soldering iron and related tools; I had one 
living in my car, so didn't think of it as a separate item.



My assistant hired a pretty girlfriend as a booth bimbo.  She got us 
invited to all of the parties (and some Comdex parties are incredible)

In my company everybody creates their own job title.  I am "a programmer".
My assistant alternated between "VP" and "Emperor of the dark lords of the 
universe".  Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT"


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 5/1/2024 9:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Bring lots of business cards.  Even if you aren't running a business, 
it's a lot better than standing there writing your contact information 
for everybofy that you want to stay in touch with.
Well, or a couple pieces of paper with QR codes for your web site, or 
email address, or however you want to be contacted.  I agree writing 
stuff down is nonsensical.


paper, pens, pencils, post-it notes, stapler, duct tape, voltmeter, 
batteries, flashlight, cash, blank disks and memory cards, 
screwdrivers, vise-grips, hammer.  Even if none of those fit in with 
your plans, those items will help enormously to deal with unexpected 
situations.


travel USB cords (you never know)

a long power strip with multiple taps.  6-10ft if you can.

a few extra of the power cords like goes on newer PCs and such. You may 
need them as-is, you may need to cut one and hard wire it in.  I have 
tons of them around here, so a few in the box is no big deal.


wire stripper, side nips.  In fact, if you are electronically minded at 
all, I'd throw an old soldering iron, a bit of solder, wick, needle nose 
pliers, as well.


I am literally packing for a show tonight, and I am carrying all of the 
above.


My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank 
disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small 
USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go 
everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel 
power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives.


travel LCD projector

a few RCA patch cords (work for audio or video, though I normally bring 
home computers, you may not find as much need)


signage

I tend to bring some essential electronics/sockets/switches/wire as well

The computers and peripherals I intend to show.





Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others 
attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  
Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even 
got me

two tables which is awesome.



Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?


If you are doing a presentation, finish it before you get there, if at 
all possible.  There's always people to chat with and other things 
drawing your attention away while at the show, and doing a presentation 
while at the show is always hard, if not impossible. I've done, but I do 
not recommend.


As well, just like with any audience, ensure your prez is interesting.  
Try it on someone else first.  Don't read the slides if that's your 
medium.  QR code for more information is nice.






I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the 
risks of

transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be 
in terms

of theme.


Maybe for the first one, be a bit conservative.  I've taken some high 
value rare stuff to shows, but you have to pay more attention to those 
items before, during, and after the show, and I think you'd like to 
enjoy the show for the moment.


Whatever you bring, make sure it is doing something.  Looking at a bare 
computer not doing anything is not an interesting exhibit. I've been 
guilty of this, but it's still true.


Games are always a good draw, even if that seems like cheating.

Now, off to finish packing.





Brad



--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Bring lots of business cards.  Even if you aren't running a business, it's 
a lot better than standing there writing your contact information for 
everybofy that you want to stay in touch with.


paper, pens, pencils, post-it notes, stapler, duct tape, voltmeter, 
batteries, flashlight, cash, blank disks and memory cards, screwdrivers, 
vise-grips, hammer.  Even if none of those fit in with your 
plans, those items will help enormously to deal with unexpected 
situations.



It isn't so much how well prepared you are, as how well you can adapt when 
needed.
For example, one year at Comdex, we rented an seven foot by seven foot 
booth.  A year later, at the show, the management realized that that 
little block of space was something that should not have been rented.  So, 
they gave us a ten by ten.  How to you make a seven foot wide back sign at 
least look like it fills a ten foot space?  Home Depot for some aluminum 
angle iron, fabric store for drapes.
Another time, when we had a 10 x 10, next to a couple who we knew well, we 
had to help them.  He ended up in the hospital, but his wife was 
determined to do the show, anyway.  So, we combine the two 10x10s into a 
10x20, with only a "virtual" wall in between, and stuck the leads table 
with the imprinter, etc, in the middle.



We always had a tiny refrigerator in our booth.  Handing Jerry Pournelle a 
cold beer got us a lot of free ink.  Snack foods for hospitality and/or if 
things are too busy at lunch time to goget anything.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Brad H via cctalk wrote:


Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me
two tables which is awesome.



Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?



I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of
transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms
of theme.



Brad

[cctalk] What to take to a vintage computer show

[Brad H via cctalk]

Just reaching out to anyone who has exhibited at a vintage computing
festival before.  After years of only being able to watch others attend the
ones that happen in the US, we are finally getting one in BC here.  Super
excited.  I was invited both to speak and to exhibit, and they even got me
two tables which is awesome.

 

Like, how do you prepare for these things?  What things that you didn't
think of going into your first show do you wish you had?

 

I have a pretty eclectic collection, and some really rare stuff (like my
Mark-8s) that I'd love to bring but am hesitant about due to the risks of
transportation damage and theft (from the car mostly, not the convention
itself).  Just trying to decide what to bring and how focused to be in terms
of theme.

 

Brad

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Just Kant via cctalk]

My first experience with programming (BASIC) and even computers was on an Atari 
400 in 9th grade. I hated those damned things, I guess mainly on account of the 
membrane keyboard. Elfin tight wads. In 10th I again decided to enroll in 
computer courses, FARTRAN and then COBOL. Mostly on teletype terminals that 
were arguably more unpleasant experience then BASIC on the 400. We had at least 
1 Commodore Pet im the "lab". It would have been nice to use that which had an 
actual keyboard and screen.

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/1/2024 8:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 5/1/24 16:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few
simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing
simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL
typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . .
Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of
which keyboard characters were which APL symbols.


It was indeed.  It was also one of the first languages implemented on a
microprocessor-based personal computer system.  (MCM-70).

To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and
matrix operations.

I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language,
what our applications code would look like today.


Marist College did.  We had an intern from there when I was at
West Point.  He was not better than any of the interns I later
ran into and because the only language he was learning at Marist
was APL (after all, this was IBM-Land) he was really not of much
use to us in a Univac-1100 shop.

bill

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/1/2024 7:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have 
had APL, instead of BASIC?




Maybe not instead of BASIC but I had APL on my TRS-80.

bill

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
I remember replacing the character generator eprom (the type with the window 
for UV erasing) on an old ATI EGA video board so that I could have the APL 
character set.


sweet

At least one of the ATI EGA boards had a daughter board available to be 
able to use it in Compaq luggables.  (Compaq CGA, Compaq EGA, ATI EGA with 
daughter board)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

Fred,

It's not a big deal.  I was exposed to the DTSS as a 7th grader because 
I was going to a boarding school near by in 1972.


The school I was at had a PDP-8/L and I became an early adopter computer 
geek.


On 5/1/2024 6:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing 
System was compiled.


I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were 
all interpreted.


I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a 
phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80).



Thank you for the details of the history.


When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first 
uses of it were primarily to make my source code less easily 
accessible to would-be infringers. :-)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

I remember replacing the character generator eprom (the type with the 
window for UV erasing) on an old ATI EGA video board so that I could 
have the APL character set.


On 5/1/2024 7:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few
simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing
simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL
typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . .
Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of
which keyboard characters were which APL symbols.


On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

It was indeed.  It was also one of the first languages implemented on a
microprocessor-based personal computer system.  (MCM-70).
To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and
matrix operations.
I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language,
what our applications code would look like today.
My friend Bruce, called it "That Iverson Language".
It's interesting to note that the Iverson book was published in 1962,
but an implementation (under 7090 IBSYS) didn't come about until 1965,
although preliminary implementation as PAT had been done on a 1620 (!)
in 1963.


The extended character set was an important obstacle to its 
acceptance. Besides keyboard (masking tape) and output (APL typeball, 
special character generator, or having to substitute combinations of 
character), many people were unwilling to even try something with a 
different character set.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Yet FORTRAN, the granddaddy of them all, continues on...  It should be
noted that FORTRAN celebrates its 70th anniversary this year:


I didn't start until May 29, 1965.
I had previously been doing some keypunching, and 084 counting sorter.
IBM did the data processing for the CBS "National Drivers Test"; they 
actually succeeded in using port-a-punch cards sent through the US postal 
system!
My father did the analysis.  You can see him behind Walter Cronkite, 
frantically manually adding numbers where IBM's flawed results didn't add 
up close enough to 100%.


He decided that contracting out programming was too risky.
On May 29, he placed a copy of Mc Cracken and Decima Anderson's books on 
the dining room table.  And, we started to learn the basics of 
programming.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few
simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing
simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL
typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . .
Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of
which keyboard characters were which APL symbols.


On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

It was indeed.  It was also one of the first languages implemented on a
microprocessor-based personal computer system.  (MCM-70).
To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and
matrix operations.
I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language,
what our applications code would look like today.
My friend Bruce, called it "That Iverson Language".
It's interesting to note that the Iverson book was published in 1962,
but an implementation (under 7090 IBSYS) didn't come about until 1965,
although preliminary implementation as PAT had been done on a 1620 (!)
in 1963.


The extended character set was an important obstacle to its acceptance. 
Besides keyboard (masking tape) and output (APL typeball, special 
character generator, or having to substitute combinations of character), 
many people were unwilling to even try something with a different 
character set.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/1/24 16:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few
> simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing
> simple programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. APL
> typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . .
> Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of
> which keyboard characters were which APL symbols.

It was indeed.  It was also one of the first languages implemented on a
microprocessor-based personal computer system.  (MCM-70).

To me, APL is logical--strict right-to-left precedence; simple array and
matrix operations.

I've long wondered if we introduced students to APL as a first language,
what our applications code would look like today.

My friend Bruce, called it "That Iverson Language".

It's interesting to note that the Iverson book was published in 1962,
but an implementation (under 7090 IBSYS) didn't come about until 1965,
although preliminary implementation as PAT had been done on a 1620 (!)
in 1963.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Michael Mulhern via cctalk]

In ‘81 FORTRAN77 was the first language I learnt, but it was BASIC that
started my IT career. I was writing programs at Griffith University for
various lecturers and research staff. This was before the uni even had a
dedicated Computer Science Degree.

If it wasn’t for BASIC, I’d probably be a High School teacher. What a
career change.

//m


On Thu, 2 May 2024 at 9:34 AM, KenUnix via cctalk 
wrote:

> Anyone interested in a flavor of BASIC try my version of BWaterBasic  for
> Linux, Windows and DOS
> athttps://yeolpishack.net/repos/KenUnix/BwBasic
>
> It's pretty fast. Full source and DOCs are also there.
>
> Ken
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 7:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
> > > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing
> > System
> > > was compiled.
> >
> > I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all
> > interpreted.
> >
> > I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a
> > phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80).
> >
> >
> > Thank you for the details of the history.
> >
> >
> > When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses
> > of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to
> > would-be infringers. :-)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> >
>
>
> --
> End of line
> JOB TERMINATED
>

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/1/24 16:37, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive
>> programming languages.  We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others,
>> based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
> 
> And where are all those other languages today?

How much of the original BASIC language endures?  You know,
single-character or character-followed-by-number variable names,
floating point only, etc.?

Yet FORTRAN, the granddaddy of them all, continues on...  It should be
noted that FORTRAN celebrates its 70th anniversary this year:

https://www.edn.com/1st-fortran-program-runs-september-20-1954/

To the best of my knowledge no supercomputer application code has ever
been written in BASIC, but I"m willing to be disabused of that notion.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive
programming languages.  We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others,
based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart.


What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had 
APL, instead of BASIC?



APL was incredible.  I was amazed.  I was immediately able to do a few 
simple things that were useful for my boss and myself, and writing simple 
programs within hours.  Its matrix arithmetic was awesome. 
APL typeball on a selectric terminal at GSFC, . . .
Some of the keys were re-labeled, but there was a chart on the wall of 
which keyboard characters were which APL symbols.



My cousin (David Ungar) referred to APL as "terse".  He said that you 
could write a word processing program in a single line, but that was well 
past my abilities.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

APL is very much alive - it was invented in the '60s. 
Lisp is slightly older and it, as well, is still in active use - and it's older 
than FORTRAN, which was the inspiration for BASIC. 

From: "Sellam Abraham via cctalk"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Cc: "Sellam Abraham"  
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 4:37:46 PM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC 

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote: 

> To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive 
> programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, 
> based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. 
> 
> --Chuck 
> 

And where are all those other languages today? 

I rest my case. 

;) 

Sellam 

[cctalk] Re: Diablo Model 40 Series - Disturbed head positioning

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

Power supply problem?
Marc

> On Apr 30, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Dominique Carlier via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone
> 
> I need your help to identify an issue on my Diablo Model 40 Series. I don't 
> know where to look, it's so vast !
> 
> Here's the problem:
> When RUN is activated, the drive begins its spin up and simultaneously 
> deploys the heads (normal) but instead of stabilizing them, the Head 
> Positioner receives a burst of reverse/forward micro signals. The heads 
> "vibrate", this creates an audible frequency "BRR", and it is 
> infinite, the heads are never loaded and the drive never reaches READY.
> 
> At first I thought that perhaps the track zero sensor was defective or 
> something of the same order but when I disengage RUN mode, the drive unloads 
> the heads and they should be in a fixed position, here they continue to 
> reverse/forward but more slowly than in RUN mode.
> Because the heads continues to mess around even in unload mode, this a priori 
> excludes alignment problems.
> 
> Here is a video of that issue:
> 
> https://youtu.be/HzzxLnSdEOg
> 
> Other information, if I cut the power while the drive is in RUN mode, it does 
> not do an emergency retraction of the heads, related problem?
> I was hoping for a power supply problem but all the voltages and even on the 
> main board cage seem ok (with a multimeter).
> 
> If one of you had already encountered this problem of lack of head 
> stabilization and continuous reverse/forward on this type of drive?
> 
> Thanks !
> 
> Dominique
> 

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive
> programming languages.  We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others,
> based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart.
>
> --Chuck
>

And where are all those other languages today?

I rest my case.

;)

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive
programming languages.  We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others,
based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart.

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[KenUnix via cctalk]

Anyone interested in a flavor of BASIC try my version of BWaterBasic  for
Linux, Windows and DOS
athttps://yeolpishack.net/repos/KenUnix/BwBasic

It's pretty fast. Full source and DOCs are also there.

Ken

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 7:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
> > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing
> System
> > was compiled.
>
> I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all
> interpreted.
>
> I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a
> phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80).
>
>
> Thank you for the details of the history.
>
>
> When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses
> of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to
> would-be infringers. :-)
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>


-- 
End of line
JOB TERMINATED

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Considering the time that it was introduced to the world, and what it was
intended to do, and what it did do, and how it went on to become something
much, much greater than what Kemeny and Kurtz ever envisioned (even though
they didn't like much of it), BASIC does not get nearly as much credit as
it deserves.

Sellam

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
> > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing
> System
> > was compiled.
>
> I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all
> interpreted.
>
> I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a
> phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80).
>
>
> Thank you for the details of the history.
>
>
> When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses
> of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to
> would-be infringers. :-)
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing System 
was compiled.


I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all 
interpreted.


I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a 
phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80).



Thank you for the details of the history.


When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses 
of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to 
would-be infringers. :-)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing 
System was compiled.


On 5/1/2024 5:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into
existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic 
later
on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right 
tool for

a microcomputer with  limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from
popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed!
Happy computing,
Murray 


BTW, BASIC ("Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code") was 
developed at Dartmouth college by Kurtz and Kemeny.  More than 30 
years later was the first time (or so they claimed) that they EVER got 
around to trying ANY of the BASICs based on their original language.

They were APALLED!
They came out with "TRUE BASIC", to counter the various "street BASICs.


picky details, . . . BASIC was a non-compiled interpreted LANGUAGE, 
not an OS ("Operating System"), at least in the examples you mention.  
(also TRS80 and some models of Commodore)



However, to be fair, there did exist something called "Microsoft 
Stand-Alone BASIC", used in the Coco, some models of NEC 8801 (and 9801?)
That was a Microsoft BASIC that had rudimentary disk operations built 
in, to serve the needed functions of an OS.
The disk directory structure of Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, with 
directory entris pointing into a linked list allocation table,was the 
inspiration for Tim Paterson to use as the directory structure for 
PC-DOS/MS-DOS/86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System" (a 
placeholder to use during hardware development while waiting for the 
overdue CP/M-86)) .



More details to research, . . .
GWBASIC was a version of BASICA of the 5150/PC, but run from MS-DOS, 
and not requiring the ROMS.  That was so that OEMs of MS-DOS could 
supply BASIC closely matching that of the PC.  Some even renamed 
GWBASIC into "BASICA", topreserve compatability for batch files that 
called BASIC.


Q: What did "GWBASIC" stand for?
at the time, some Microsoft people said that it stood for "Gee Whiz 
BASIC".  But more recently, Microsoft denies any memory of what it 
was, and billg speculated that it stood for "Greg Whitten BASIC".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Wayne S via cctalk]

IMHO, “C” nomenclature really screwed up the equality vs assignment statements. 
 The == made it difficult to understand especially if you came from a language 
that didn’t have it. Basically all languages before “C”.


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2024, at 15:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> I remember that one of the changes that "street" BASICs made was to make the 
> keyword "LET" be optional.
> Thus, instead of writing
> LET X = 3
> you could write
> X = 3
> 
> unfortunately, that further confused the issue of ASSIGNMENT versus EQUALITY, 
> and many beginners tried to write
> 3 = X
> while they certainly would not have tried to write
> LET 3 = X
> 
> 
> Sorry, but off the top of my head, I can't recall the many other differences.
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I remember that one of the changes that "street" BASICs made was to make 
the keyword "LET" be optional.

Thus, instead of writing
LET X = 3
you could write
X = 3

unfortunately, that further confused the issue of ASSIGNMENT versus EQUALITY, 
and many beginners tried to write

3 = X
while they certainly would not have tried to write
LET 3 = X


Sorry, but off the top of my head, I can't recall the many other 
differences.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 1 May 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into
existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later
on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for
a microcomputer with  limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from
popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed!
Happy computing,
Murray 


BTW, BASIC ("Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code") was 
developed at Dartmouth college by Kurtz and Kemeny.  More than 30 years 
later was the first time (or so they claimed) that they EVER got around to 
trying ANY of the BASICs based on their original language.

They were APALLED!
They came out with "TRUE BASIC", to counter the various "street BASICs.


picky details, . . . 
BASIC was a non-compiled interpreted LANGUAGE, not an OS ("Operating 
System"), at least in the examples you mention.  (also TRS80 and some 
models of Commodore)



However, to be fair, there did exist something called "Microsoft 
Stand-Alone BASIC", used in the Coco, some models of NEC 8801 (and 9801?)
That was a Microsoft BASIC that had rudimentary disk operations built in, 
to serve the needed functions of an OS.
The disk directory structure of Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC, with 
directory entris pointing into a linked list allocation table,was the 
inspiration for Tim Paterson to use as the directory structure for 
PC-DOS/MS-DOS/86-DOS/QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System" (a 
placeholder to use during hardware development while waiting for the 
overdue CP/M-86)) .



More details to research, . . .
GWBASIC was a version of BASICA of the 5150/PC, but run from MS-DOS, and 
not requiring the ROMS.  That was so that OEMs of MS-DOS could supply 
BASIC closely matching that of the PC.  Some even renamed GWBASIC into 
"BASICA", topreserve compatability for batch files that called BASIC.


Q: What did "GWBASIC" stand for?
at the time, some Microsoft people said that it stood for "Gee Whiz 
BASIC".  But more recently, Microsoft denies any memory of what it was, 
and billg speculated that it stood for "Greg Whitten BASIC".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

The Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code (BASIC)

Developed by John G. Kemeny and Thomas E. Kurtz at Dartmouth College in 
1963.  This ran on the Dartmouth Time Sharing System (DTSS) which was an 
early time sharing system running on Honeywell and GE Main Frames with 
Datanet systems running the terminal interfaces.


This system was intended to be an online code/run/debug cycle system 
rather than a batch processing system like most Cobol and Fortran 
compilers were.


BASIC was actually their third language attempt to simplify the syntax 
of languages like Fortran and Algol.


There are literally 100's of dialects of BASIC, both as compilers (as 
was the original) and interpreters and even pseudo compilers.


Like many of us older members of this thread, some form of BASIC was our 
"computer milk language" (our first computer language).


Some early microcomputers even wrote their operating systems in some 
form of BASIC.


I learned basic in September of 1972 on a 4K PDP-8/L running EduSystem 
10 Basic with time also spent at the Kiewit Computation Center at 
Dartmouth (as a 12 year old) running Dartmouth Basic.


Let's hear your earliest introduction to BASIC.





On 5/1/2024 5:03 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into
existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later
on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for
a microcomputer with  limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from
popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed!

Happy computing,

Murray 

[cctalk] BASIC

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

Nostalgia keeps pressing ahead: It was 60 yrs. ago that BASIC came into
existence. I remember very well writing in Apple Basic and GW Basic later
on. As a non-compiled OS, an interpreted OS, it was just the right tool for
a microcomputer with  limited memory. I recall fondly taking code from
popular magazines and getting them to run. It was thrilling indeed!

Happy computing,

Murray 

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Joshua Rice via cctalk]

I can't vouch for later drives, but the earliest 600RPM Sony drives were 
built we no knowledge of HD vs DD, so covering the HD hole is probably a 
moot point in the HP drives, though it is likely worth taping over it 
for any formatting options.


It's worth noting that the speed is pretty much a moot point as well. As 
long as the data is written on the disks correctly by the modern 
machine, the older 600RPM drives should have no problem reading it. My 
RCA MS2000 reads floppies written in modern machines perfectly fine and 
that has even more oddball single sided 600RPM drives.


As someone else said, the disk loading mechanism gets very stiff as the 
lubricant solidifies. It's quite easy to free it up with some IPA and 
patience. I'd be very careful not to ruin the upper heads on dual sided 
drives by forcing disks in and out though. Thankfully a moot point with 
my drives!


Could be that the drive heads need cleaning and alignment. Have you had 
any success formatting disks on the target machine, if possible?


Josh Rice

On 30/04/2024 21:06, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Thank you for trying to help.  My situation is unusual at best and I'm 
apologize for the extra bandwidth my question is causing.


*snip*

The HP9114A drive uses a modified Sony 3.5" floppy drive running at 
600 RPM instead of the normal 300 RPM.  This is an extremely unusual 
configuration that is different from any PC/MAC/Commodore/Amiga 
situation.


*snip*

Than you again everyone for offering to help,

  Mike

On 4/30/2024 2:41 PM, Wayne S wrote:

What errors are you seeing?


Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 30, 2024, at 12:29, Mike Katz via cctalk 
 wrote:


I have tried bulk erasing 1.44 MB disks and they still won't format 
in the HP9114A battery operated HP-IL Floppy Disk drive.



On 4/30/2024 12:20 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:

On 30/04/2024 18:08, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:

Having grown up with 1.44MB 3.5" floppies, I have a question: is it
possible to use a 1.44MB disk and just format it as a 720K disk?
I think it's entirely possible. I'd definitely format them in a 
720kb drive though to be extra safe. Though original 720KB disks 
written/formatted  in 1.44MB drives seem perfectly cromulent from 
my experience.


However don't quote me on it, The only double density drives i have 
are super early Sony ones built in 1982 and they get pampered with 
NOS 720kb media (with the sliders sellotaped open because no auto 
opening shutters on my drives!)


Josh Rice

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 5:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally
> equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I
> believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only
> seen the inside of a B model.

I've got both types and not surprisingly have been inside them.

The controllers are similar in design -- the main changes are for the
different drive type and the better battery status monitor on the 'B'
-- but are not interchangeable. You probably could get it to work,
but..

The -A uses the original Sony 3.5" double-head drive. This always runs
at 600rpm, the HP one is not modified. The -B uses a later drive, also
600rpm, which shares a lot of parts with the Apple 800K drive (head
carriage, stepper motor, analogue IC...) should you need to do
repairs. The older drive has a 26 pin data cable and separate 4 pin
power cable, the later drive has a 34 pin cable for data and power
(power is on some of the odd-numbered pin, they are not all grounds as
you might expect).

The disk-inserted sensor on the -A is a spring-loaded plastic part
which interrupts the beam of a slotted optoswitch on the motor PCB
when a disk is present. Amazingly it lines up with the 'high desity
hole' in 1.4M disks. So unless you rigidly block that hole it is
likely the drive will not detect such a disk.  As others have said the
1.4M disks are higher coercivity so using them is unreliable at best.

-tony

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

Well from pictures I found online at 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/315148732505 it would seem that the A model 
just said "9114" on the front however the serial number label on the 
bottom says 9114A.


Paul.

On 2024-05-01 4:39 a.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Thanks, Paul,

I'm aware of the 9114A and B versions and some of the differences, but I'm
wondering whether my 9114 is identical to the 9114A.

Is it maybe like World War I  which was just 'The Great War' until WW
II came along; same war, different name.

m

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 12:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally
equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I
believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only
seen the inside of a B model.

Paul.

On 2024-04-30 8:29 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

I am not familiar with a 9114 only the 9114A and 9114B.

On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote:

Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine
are 9114s); are they the same or actually different drives?

m


On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk
 wrote:

 Thank you for your help.

 That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk.
 With a directory size of 60.

 On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
 > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive.
 The NEWM command formats a new disk.
 > Link is
https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78
 >
 >
 > Sent from my iPhone
 >
 > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S 
wrote:
 >
 > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive?
 >
 > Sent from my iPhone
 >
 > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk
  wrote:
 >
 > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
 > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy
 disk hole to
 > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format
 as 720, you
 > could specify size or sector count with format.com
  in dos.
 >
 > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps.
 >
 > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25
 disks being
 > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems
in my
 > limited use.
 >
 > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted;
 > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted;
 > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well;
 > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K")
 sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it
 over to another machine.  We had a college purchasing agent in bed
 with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s;
 they self erased very soon.
 >
 > --
 > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 at 18:08, Mike Katz via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Does anybody have any extra 720K (double sided, double density) 3.5"
> Floppy Disks that could use a good home?
>
> If so, please email me directly at bit...@12bitsbest.com.

In what country? That massively impacts many people's willingness to donate.

If in the USA, you could buy some from https://www.floppydisk.com/

«
3.5" floppy DS/DD MF2-DD
"Double Density" "Low density" "720K"

50 New Black DS/DD 720K IBM Format
$99.95

50 New Black DS/DD  NOT FORMATTED
$99.95

50 DS/DD 720K disks
Recycled disks--Guaranteed 100%
$34.95
Recycled disks are tested, reformated, and relabeled in our facility.
»


-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Thanks, Paul,

I'm aware of the 9114A and B versions and some of the differences, but I'm
wondering whether my 9114 is identical to the 9114A.

Is it maybe like World War I  which was just 'The Great War' until WW
II came along; same war, different name.

m

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 12:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally
> equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I
> believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only
> seen the inside of a B model.
>
> Paul.
>
> On 2024-04-30 8:29 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > I am not familiar with a 9114 only the 9114A and 9114B.
> >
> > On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> >> Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine
> >> are 9114s); are they the same or actually different drives?
> >>
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Thank you for your help.
> >>
> >> That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk.
> >> With a directory size of 60.
> >>
> >> On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive.
> >> The NEWM command formats a new disk.
> >> > Link is
> >> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive?
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy
> >> disk hole to
> >> > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format
> >> as 720, you
> >> > could specify size or sector count with format.com
> >>  in dos.
> >> >
> >> > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps.
> >> >
> >> > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25
> >> disks being
> >> > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems
> >> in my
> >> > limited use.
> >> >
> >> > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted;
> >> > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted;
> >> > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well;
> >> > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K")
> >> sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it
> >> over to another machine.  We had a college purchasing agent in bed
> >> with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s;
> >> they self erased very soon.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> >>
>

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[David Wade via cctalk]

On 01/05/2024 00:27, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:

Thank you.

My goal is not to use HD floppies on a drive not designed for them. I 
saw some on ebay and amazon but I thought I would try here to see if 
anybody had some they don't need.  I would help keep them out of the 
trash.


I have lots, but being in the UK its probably more expensive to post 
them that to buy from E-Bay.


My recent experiences with real floppies leads me to believe that almost 
all media and/or the drives are deteriorating and although I have 
several drives and lots of disks obtaining reliable performance seems as 
attainable as unicorn horns...




Thank you again.



Dave G4UGM


On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Wayne S wrote:
If it’s any help, i second the reformat completely a disk in a old 
pc. I had some issues many years ago where disks formatted on an ibm 
pc didn’t work correctly on a non- ibm pc. Reformatting and doing the 
error checking by reading and writing all sections fixed it. A quick 
format didn’t.
There are lotsa 720k diskette’s available for sale… prices vary. Even 
Amazon has them!


Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 30, 2024, at 15:39, Mike Katz  wrote:

Thank you.  I didn't see any new procedures that I have already tried.

I do not have a problem with the drive or with trying to format a HD 
disk with the HP-41 and therefore I was looking for a few DSDD disks 
instead of DSHD disks.



On 4/30/2024 5:13 PM, Wayne S wrote:
There is also these 2 procedures to try…. From 
https://literature.hpcalc.org/community/hp9114a-ms-en.pdf




TheHP9114Ausesdouble-sideddiscs.Dataiswrittenonboth sides of the 
disc. Thus the normal formatting procedure is double- sided 
formatting. Single-sided formatting is allowed for transferring 
data from older systems. See the next section for single-sided 
formatting.
Before a flexible disc can be used for the first time, it must be 
formatted. Formatting establishes the directory and volume label as 
wellasverifyingthatthemediaisnotdamaged.Shownnextare two ways to 
format discs. Insert a blank disc into the disc drive.
 From the P.A.M. display, pressing the “File Manager” (f2) softkey 
gets you to a “Format” softkey. Press the key labeled ““Format” 
(f5) and answer the next questions.
“Enter the disc to format”. The first disc drive is assigned the 
letter C. Type C: and press return.
“Enter a volume label (optional).” The volume label is the name you 
want to call the disc. This can be up to 11 characters. For 
example, let’s call this disc “First”. Type First and press Return.


  The information is displayed on the first two lines below the 
cursor.PresstheStartFormatkey(f1)ifthesetwolinesarecorrect.
“Formatting Disc. Please wait.” appears on the display. Formatting 
a disc takes about 1 1/2 minutes. The interleave used with this 
formattingmethodis8,theoptimalforHP Portable/9114A operation.
After formatting is complete, pressing the “’Exit Format” (f8) 
softkey returns you to the main File Manager display. To exit File 
Manager press the “Exit File Manager” softkey. This ends the format 
procedure.
ThesecondmethodofformattingdiscsistousetheMSDOS Format command. 
From the initial P.A.M. display, tabbing over to the area called 
“DOS Commands” and pressing “Return” allows you to use the DOS 
command called Format. The interleave used inthiscommand 
is8whichisoptimalforyourHP Portable/9114A system.

Type FORMAT C: and press Return.
“Press any key to begin formatting C:” is displayed. Press any key 
on the keyboard. Formatting takes about 1 1/2 minutes.
After formatting is complete there is another prompt on the display 
““Volume label (11 characters, Enter for none)?. *“Press “Return”if 
you don’t want a label or enter the name and press “Return” if you 
want to label the volume.
When completed “Format another (Y/N)?” appears on the display. 
Typing “N” gets you back to entering MS DOS commands. Type “EXIT” 
to return to P.A.M.

Formatting Single-sided
TheHPPortable/9114Asystemcanformatdouble-sideddiscsina single-sided 
format. This is allowed for data compatability with other 3 
1/2-inch disc systems. There is a utility called 
“Format.Com”ontheutilitydiscsuppliedwithyourHP Portable 
computer.Youmustloadthe“Format.Com”utilityintoyourHP Portable. Use 
the following sequence.
PlacetheUtilitydiscintoyourHP9114A. TabovertotheDOS Command 
blockandpressStartApplic.


  From theMS DOS command displaytype: COPY C: FORMAT.COM A: and 
press Return
This loads the utility and allows you to use the extra parameters 
explainedinthefollowingFORMATcommand.
TheMS DOS command thatallowsthiscompatibilitywithits parameters 
isshown next.

Format C:/W -Single-sided
/X -Double-sided with 256 byte sectors
/Y -Double-sided with 512 byte sectors /Z -Double-sided with 1024 byte

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On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:39, Mike Katz  wrote:

Thank you for your help.

That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the 
disk.  With a directory size of 60.


On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk