[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 On the subject of early 8008 designs - there was a Canadian one (1974 I think) the MIL (Microsystems International Limited) MOD-8 - later also released as the GNC-8 (Great Northern Computers) I also created an emulator for it as well - so you can experience using another very early system if you like... Sometime later, Scelbi 8008 BASIC was ported to it (also in my archive) - this has to be one of the very earliest (notice I didn't say F-r-t :-) BASICs. Dave
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 11:30 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Weill .. I certainly expected lots of "discussion" on these statements > about my Altair: > > I have never claimed to be an "unknown drip"(*) on details of computer > history, but here is my reasoning: > > > First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) > > I am well aware of small systems that predated the Altair, but they > are/were not neary as well known (mainly due to Jan/Feb 1975 Popular > Electronics), and I don't recall that nearly as many of them were as > commonly owned and operated by "people of modest means" and/or not > "in the industry". > > And unlike most predecessors it was expandable by a means that grew > onto a whole industry. > > > With respect, I have studied the 1956 Royal McBee LGP-23 (and later -30) at length and found one could easily use this computer as a "personal computer". The machine docs indicate that it was sold for general computing use, operated in real time by one person. From the training materials I have on hand, it appears as if this machine was intended as an open system and people were trained to have at it. The Friden Flexowriter was the I/O device, a bootstrap was loaded into the drum memory and off you went. THe LGP-30 inspired Kertz and Kimmeny to write BASIC.One might find it pretty easy to program "Hunt the Wumpus" using this machine, but it was not powerful enough to run BASIC as it was written originally. Pretty cool if you ask me and I don't know of any other stand-alone computer intended to be used specifically as a one person general electronic computing device before the LGP-23/30. A first? Not saying that, but my definition of personal computer is met by the Royal McBee LGP. Conclude what you want. If anyone has a spare LGP-23 or 30 please send to me, thanks in advance. I will come pick it up. Bill Degnan
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
Weill .. I certainly expected lots of "discussion" on these statements about my Altair: I have never claimed to be an "unknown drip"(*) on details of computer history, but here is my reasoning: > First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) I am well aware of small systems that predated the Altair, but they are/were not neary as well known (mainly due to Jan/Feb 1975 Popular Electronics), and I don't recall that nearly as many of them were as commonly owned and operated by "people of modest means" and/or not "in the industry". And unlike most predecessors it was expandable by a means that grew onto a whole industry. I too generally avoid using "first" in history discussions... but At one time I discussed this with Ed Roberts, the creator of the Altair, and he said: "We coined the phrase Personal Computer and it was first applied to the Altair, i.e., by definition the first personal computer." ... "The beginning of the personal computer industry started without question at MITS with the Altair." > First S100 buss system Originally called "Roberts Buss" the Atair expansion buss was used by many systems that followed, and not wanting to use their competitors name, the buss became known as "S100" (presumably System buss with 100 pins) Again, Ed Roberts confirmed this to me. > First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) I should have qualified this with "well known published" code. As far as I know, Bill's career really went off with his implementation of BASIC - which became: Mits Altair Basic And perhaps Microsoft started "only a few years" after (which WAS a LONG time in those days of the industry) - but it wasn't anywhere what it would become some years after that! - and I don't think it was at all well known till MS-DOS (post IBM-PC). But again, I don't claim to be: (*) X - marks the unknown Spurt - a drip under pressure .. and I don't claim to be an "unknown drip under pressure" (I'll happily leave that honor to others in the group :-) Dave
[cctalk] Re: ANITA ((was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
Christian Corti wrote: > The Anita electronic desktop calculators are a perfect example for the usage > of > selenium rectifiers in logic gates. ..and anyone who has restored one knows that the vast majority of the back-to-back selenium diode packages have to be replaced with something else as they no longer function properly. Ambient moisture kills Selenium as a semiconductor, and even though these devices were packaged to avoid that to some degree, after 60 years, stuff happens. Many restorers resort to de-soldering the dual-diode packages from the circuit boards, hollowing out the package (removing the Selenium rectifiers and the potting material used) and installing back-to-back conventional Silicon diodes that are rated for the appropriate voltages involved in these machines, potting the diodes in place with some kind of material (epoxy?), and re-soldering the package to the circuit board. These calculators used gas-discharge active logic elements (e.g., thyratrons and dekatrons) and used (relatively speaking) high voltages for their logic levels. Fortunately, these gas-discharge devices seem to fare quite well with time, and though some do fail due to atomic-level outgassing or simple breakage, the majority of them work just as well the day the machine came off the assembly line. Such practice with the Selenium rectifier modules makes the calculator look original if done carefully, and allows it to function when operation was impossible with the original devices. It is an extremely tedious and time-consuming process, as there are a great many of these devices used in the first-generation Sumlock/ANITA calculators. I applaud anyone with the courage and patience to perform such surgery on these unusual artifacts. Fortunately, the circuit boards are quite robustly made, and the traces are large and well adhered to the base material of the circuit board (unlike many later calculators), making such an operation feasible. I am not brave enough to try this with the museum's ANITA Mk8. After 25+ years of owning this artifact, I have not even tried to apply power to it in any fashion, and probably never will. It is one of the very few calculators in the museum that is probably not in operational condition, as I strive for all of the exhibited machines to be operable and available for visitors to the physical museum to play with if they desire. I'm content to leave it as it is for a display machine, as it is in very nice original condition. Interesting to note that many ANITA Mk8 machines have a single transistor in them. It's in the power supply. The designers were comfortable enough using these relatively fussy gas-discharge logic devices as digital devices(they had developed machines like Colossus using this technology considerably before transistors were a thing, so there was certainly historical precedent), but the transistor was just fine for an analog purpose in the power supply. Boy, did they ever get it backwards (in terms of the longevity of gas-discharge logic elements in electronic calculators and what became the ubiquitous use to transistors)! Not intended at all to slight the accomplishment of Sumlock Comptometer in the development of these calculators. They set the stage for the explosion of what was to become a many hundreds of million dollar market by the end of the decade, not to mention setting the electronic calculator up to be the driving force behind integrated circuit development for a consumer-oriented device. ICs before their development for use in calculators were only for big mainframe computers, military weapons systems, the spooks at places like the NSA, and the space program. For that matter, the ANITA Mk7/8 could be said to be the progenitors for the development of the CPU on a chip, and by extension, the personal computer. Notice I didn't specify any machine, or say "first". Slippery slope there. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
Gak, 4k ram but 100k via virtual memory TO CASSETTE? I want one just for that. LOL Was the cassette multi-track with one track containing timing marks, so records would not overlay each other? I guess I would argue the definition of a PERSONAL computer is if many or (preferably) nearly all of them were purchased from personal accounts (credit card, check, or cash via some kind of money order) as opposed to corporate or business accounts likely subject to double entry bookkeeping and depreciation. Maybe being depreciated is the definition of NOT personal? For instance, I doubt more than one or two of those LGP-30s were purchased from a personal account, and if so, probably by a start-up that was not yet into having a corporate account. This web page https://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/MCM_70_microcomputer.htm indicates they were sold to corporations and universities, so the in the same category as the LGP-30, which predated it by many years. --Carey > On 05/24/2024 10:34 AM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that was > > a training device, no?) > > Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a > display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a > CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. > > Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... > > --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
First, Dave wrote: > Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 15:53:53 -0400 > From: Dave Dunfield > I've just passed on my "Mits Altair 8800" - this is a very historic system > from the 70s - it is: > First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) Which is on the face of it incorrect. Then Christian Corti responded (in replying to someone else's objection to Dave's claim of firstness: > Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:44:46 +0200 (CEST) > From: Christian Corti via cctalk > >> First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) > Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? Which is nearer the mark, but not fully correct. Then Sellam Abraham stuck his oar in: > Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 07:40:31 -0700 > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk > > Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > Yes, poorly. Oh, FFS, Sellam. OK. Once again, the history goes like this. I have heard it from the horses' mouths (yes, plural). Bill Gates and Paul Allen, along with 4 other students (out of a class of about 20), really cottoned onto programming in BASIC when a class was offered at their school, the Lakeside School in Seattle. That class used a remote timesharing service called GEIS (General Electric Information System), which ran on GE 635 computers. The six boys (it was a boys' school until the next year when it went co-ed) were allowed to visit a new computer service bureau called CCC, because one of their mothers was acquainted with one of the primaries. This company was using a DEC PDP-10 timesharing system; the boys were given guest accounts under the proviso that when the system crashed they would document what they were doing at the time of the crash. They were so eager to learn that the systems programmers (two MIT alums and a Stanford alum) allowed them access to the hardware and system call reference manuals, so that they learned assembler programming as well as BASIC, to an expert level. The summer between Paul's graduation and starting college, he along with Bill and three others of the group got ACTUAL PAYING JOBS PROGRAMMING PDP-10 SYSTEMS FOR THE BONNEVILLE POWER ADMINISTRATION, on a project called RODS (Real-time Operational Data System) which used the systems for control purposes. (The sixth member of their coterie got a job as a junior ranger at Mount Rainier National Park, so wasn't interested in being indoors all day all summer.) Paul dropped out of college after his sophomore year and moved to the Boston area, where he worked for Honeywell's software division and hung out with Bill and Bill's college friends, meanwhile looking for a way to have a small computer of their own. They read the industry magazines to news of small systems. In the mean time, they tried to create a company to sell a traffic counting device based on the Intel 8008 microprocessor. The prototype hardware failed in their first demonstration to the City of Seattle traffic department, and they shelved the idea. When the Altair issue of Popular Electronics came out in mid-December 1974 (cover data January 1975), they were prepared for the challenge. After ascertaining that Ed Roberts and MITS would entertain the idea of looking at a BASIC interpreter for the new system, they sat down and created one from whole cloth, with the division of labor as follows: Bill Gates: the interpreter itself Paul Allen: a simulator running on the PDP-10 for the Intel 8080 processor Monte Davidoff: a math whiz freshman who wrote the transcendental math routines (My sources are Paul Allen and Bob Barnett. Bob was Paul and Bill's manager at RODS, and the original business manager for Living Computer Museum. I have no reason to believe that either had any reason to lie to me.) Micro-soft incorporated in June/July 1975, so six months after they wrote their first 8080 machine code, so Dave is wrong about "long before Microsoft". And Sellam is simply wrong. Rich
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
There was a 4004 based computer developed in 1972 that was released before the Micral called the Comstar 4. It's not very well known but it was written about in the ACM and the Computer History Museum has a copy of their sales manual ACM article https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1499949.1499959 Manual at Computer History Museum https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102686568 On Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:45 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, > much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete > commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to > normal customers. > > Christian > >
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
Besides nobody fully comprehending what "FIRST" really means, . . . "The Altair was just an obscure predecessor; the personal computer was invented by Steve Jobs!" :-) "How can you call it a 'Personal Computer' with no mouse or Windoze?" :-) On Fri, 24 May 2024, Don R wrote: Well the Xerox Alto had a three button mouse, making it “extra” personal. ;) You can put significant effort into creating an unambiguous definition. But, SOMEBODY can find an example that doesn't apply that still meets the definition. Using the argument that Roberts was the first to CALL it a "personal computer", means that the "MINI-Computer" was invented by a DEC marketing person. Relatively early (NOT "FIRST") PC mice, such as Logitech's had three buttons. I have heard conflicting stories about why Apple put only one button on their mouse: 1) It would be too confusing for the user, including the need to look away from the screen to see which mouse button is being pushed 2) Difficulty of explaining which button is which, and getting user comprehension of such, in writing documentation 3) Jef Raskin's concept that the system should KNOW what is wanted, so there is no need for more than one. . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
Well the Xerox Alto had a three button mouse, making it “extra” personal. ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 24, 2024, at 11:53 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, 24 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >> > Besides nobody fully comprehending what "FIRST" really means, . . . > "The Altair was just an obscure predecessor; the personal computer was > invented by Steve Jobs!" :-) > > "How can you call it a 'Personal Computer' with no mouse or Windoze?" :-) >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: The problem with this debate is that the definition of Personal Computer is totally fluid A friend worked with an IBM 4361 at UMSL in St. Louis. It was very little used as the print and other unit record had a separate unit to handle that traffic to the University of Missouri, Columbia's 370-145 (later upgraded a lot). But the 4361 was his "PC" and was about ideal. He had the system, tape drive, a few disks, and a 2741 and a couple of terminals to log on with. Also a printer. Ran VM/SP 5 as the OS, so you could do about anything you liked without any impact on the system as far as creating a problem. lots of toys if you knew where to get them. I don't think they had anything but VM, or if they did wasn't complicated. I think the 4361 was the best of all of those systems, because of the integrated storage director. It had plenty of channels if you needed to add anything, and usually you'd have at least a tape drive on those. All of the air cooled systems, 31, 41, 61 and 81 had integrated com connections, so you could hook up a console, as well as a few other "regular" consoles w/o adding a controller of any sort. Thanks Jim
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, 24 May 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. Besides nobody fully comprehending what "FIRST" really means, . . . "The Altair was just an obscure predecessor; the personal computer was invented by Steve Jobs!" :-) "How can you call it a 'Personal Computer' with no mouse or Windoze?" :-)
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, 24 May 2024, Paul Koning wrote: selenium, which is a very marginal semiconductor. Speaking of which: some early computers tried to use selenium diodes as circuit elements (for gates), with rather limited success. The MC ARRA is an example. The Anita electronic desktop calculators are a perfect example for the usage of selenium rectifiers in logic gates. Christian
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, 24 May 2024, CAREY SCHUG wrote: the LGP-30 was used by one person AT A TIME, but on different days used by different people, who might or might not know each other, by some arbitrary scheduling algorithm. The one I was familiar with was run by a tech or grad student, doing work not for self, but for another, definitely outside the realm of "personal" Ehm... no! Christian
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, 24 May 2024, Sellam Abraham wrote: On Fri, May 24, 2024, 2:45?AM Christian Corti via cctalk < This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable machines are considered as personal computers, too. But was it called a "personal computer"? And was it designed to be "personal"? The term "personal computer" is a modern invention. But it was definitely designed to be used by individuals; it was personal in all ways. Although not affordable for home use. But neither was the original IBM PC. And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's significance back then. The Altair was absolutely insignificant in Europe. Ok, the MICRAL, too. I'd say, all microprocessor systems before the PET or some SBCs around the mid 70s were totally insignificant. Christian
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
> On May 24, 2024, at 1:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5/24/24 09:52, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> I once ran into a pre-WW2 data sheet (or ad?) for a transistor, indeed an >> FET that used selenium as the semiconducting material. Most likely that was >> the Lilienfeld device. > > Could also have been a device from Oskar Heil in the 1930s. No idea. I vaguely remember that it was French. It was in a pile of papers in my father's office -- long since lost, unfortunately. > What really made the difference in the case of transistors of any > stripe, was the adoption of zone refining: (1951) William Gardner Pfann. > Pfann knew Shockley and devised one of the early point-contact > transistors, from a 1N26 diode. Zone-refining removed one of the > bugaboos that plagued early semiconductor research--that of getting > extremely pure material. > > Pfann was a quiet, shy individual which perhaps explains why he doesn't > get the historical applause. > > Something akin to the Tesla-Steinmetz treatment. I also remember the name Czochralski -- creator of the process that produces single crystals from which the wafers are sliced. paul
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 9:45 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult. ... > "First" is a tricky term, like "best". > > --Chuck Yep, which is part of the canonical debate ;) This is why I and many others in the hobby removed the term "first" from our vocabularies when speaking of vintage computers. It's kind of pointless anyway as people tend to want a starting point in time at which they can point and say, "That is where it began", when in reality all new invention is just a continuum of improvement over time and occasionally a particular improvement makes more impact than others and gets elevated to "first" status. It's nice for newspaper headlines and such but for historians it's a waste of time (as we've borne witness to countless times over the years as this discussion re-rages periodically). Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On 5/24/24 09:52, Paul Koning wrote: > > I once ran into a pre-WW2 data sheet (or ad?) for a transistor, indeed an FET > that used selenium as the semiconducting material. Most likely that was the > Lilienfeld device. Could also have been a device from Oskar Heil in the 1930s. What really made the difference in the case of transistors of any stripe, was the adoption of zone refining: (1951) William Gardner Pfann. Pfann knew Shockley and devised one of the early point-contact transistors, from a 1N26 diode. Zone-refining removed one of the bugaboos that plagued early semiconductor research--that of getting extremely pure material. Pfann was a quiet, shy individual which perhaps explains why he doesn't get the historical applause. Something akin to the Tesla-Steinmetz treatment. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
> On May 24, 2024, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult. Even though, for > years, Shockley et al were trumpeted as the "inventors of the > transistor", it's noteworthy that their patent application was carefully > worded to avoid claims from work decades earlier by Julius Lilienfeld. > In an interesting twist of history, it's the Lilienfeld model of a MOS > transistor that prevails in our current technology, not the Shockley > junction device. I once ran into a pre-WW2 data sheet (or ad?) for a transistor, indeed an FET that used selenium as the semiconducting material. Most likely that was the Lilienfeld device. Apparently they didn't work well, not surprising given the use of selenium, which is a very marginal semiconductor. Speaking of which: some early computers tried to use selenium diodes as circuit elements (for gates), with rather limited success. The MC ARRA is an example. paul
[cctalk] First Personal Computer
The problem with this debate is that the definition of Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so that the writers opinion is fact. Each computer system has contributed, in some way, to those that followed. If you really want say what is the first "personal" computing machine that did not require manual manipulation (like an abacus) it would have to be the Antikythera Mechanism. This orrery (model of the solar system) was built around 35 BC. Yes is was an analog computer but technically it was the first personal computer (single user, autonomous, hand held and portable too). https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-ancient-greek-astronomical-calculation-machine-reveals-new-secrets/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism Ok, all of you computer brains out there, find me something older that matches this (I'm sorry but the sun dial, sextant and compass don't count because they don't calculate they only indicate). Tongue firmly implanted in cheek On 5/24/2024 11:14 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 8:34 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that was a training device, no?) Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... --Chuck This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On 5/24/24 09:14, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead > horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. > Whatever--the MITS 8800 only I/O was a bunch of switches and LEDs. While an I/O card could be added, that's as far as MITS went for several years. Real I/O was left to the user (i.e. buy a terminal of some sort). By way of comparison, the HP-41 was far more complete as a personal computer--it had I/O, expandable storage, input and display. It was Turing-complete. And personal? I suspect more HP41s were sold than the entirety of MITS 8800s. Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult. Even though, for years, Shockley et al were trumpeted as the "inventors of the transistor", it's noteworthy that their patent application was carefully worded to avoid claims from work decades earlier by Julius Lilienfeld. In an interesting twist of history, it's the Lilienfeld model of a MOS transistor that prevails in our current technology, not the Shockley junction device. I would not be at all surprised if some obscure work turned up that predates Lilienfeld. Certainly, "oscillating diodes" were known by his time, but not commercialized. "First" is a tricky term, like "best". --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
At 07:50 AM 5/24/2024, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote: >Surely the code written for Traf-O-Data, before Altair BASIC, counts as a >commercial product; I'm not sure what definition of "published" you're >using here. They didn't sell Traf-o-data, did they? I thought it was a tool they used to analyze data for municipalities, and got paid for the service. - John
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 8:34 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > > > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that > was a training device, no?) > > Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a > display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a > CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. > > Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... > > --Chuck > This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that was a > training device, no?) Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a display and keyboard. The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a CPU. APL would have been a distant dream. Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn... --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
c'mon guys, the altair was the first device with a CPU chip and memory --marketed to INDIVIDUALS, with the expectation that only one person or one related family will use it --intended to be for GENERAL PURPOSE Two, IMHO, requirements for a PERSONAL COMPUTER. Note that a "personal computer" can be used by business or colleges also without being disqualified to being a personal computer earlier devices were targeted as TRAINERS, controllers, or for embeded use, or sold to organizations (business or colleges) the LGP-30 was used by one person AT A TIME, but on different days used by different people, who might or might not know each other, by some arbitrary scheduling algorithm. The one I was familiar with was run by a tech or grad student, doing work not for self, but for another, definitely outside the realm of "personal" (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that was a training device, no?) --Carey
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
> On May 24, 2024, at 10:40 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these > days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the > Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's > significance back then. This is a familiar pattern in discovery and invention. In many cases, X was first invented by A and then some time later by B. Or "discovered" instead of "invented". And often the reason A is not generally identified as the first to do X is that the way A did it didn't lead to something that was widely used. For example: Vikings were the first Europeans to discover America, but their voyages didn't start a major movement so Columbus usually gets the credit. FM radio was invented by Hanso Idzerda, but his approach was a bit odd and the economic reasons for it disappeared some years later, so Edwin Armstrong gets the credit and Idzerda is pretty much forgotten. In this case, the bias is so strong that attempts to revise Wikipedia to correct the history get rejected. :-( paul
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, May 24, 2024, 2:45 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > >> First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) > > This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable > machines are considered as personal computers, too. > But was it called a "personal computer"? And was it designed to be "personal"? >> First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) > > Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > Yes, poorly. > I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 > > and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS > > 8800 was not. > > And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, > much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete > commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to > normal customers. > But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's significance back then. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Fri, May 24, 2024, 07:47 Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > > -- Christian Corti -- on "Bill Gates first code" > >Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? > > I'm sure he wrote code before Mits BASIC - everyone writes lots of stuff as > they learn - but as far as I have been able to determine - Mits BASIC was > his > first published commercial product. > Surely the code written for Traf-O-Data, before Altair BASIC, counts as a commercial product; I'm not sure what definition of "published" you're using here. -Henry >
[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)
On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC) This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable machines are considered as personal computers, too. First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft) Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that? I don't think the "first" applies in this case. The MCM/70 used an 8008 and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS 8800 was not. And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N, much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to normal customers. Christian
