[cctalk] Re: STUPID THREAD NEEDS TO DIE Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:49 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk 
wrote:

> something can be BOTH a "personal computer" *AND* "industrial computer"
> (or whatever term you want to use)
>

So now you've incorporated "industrial" into the mix in order to extend
this stupid debate out even beyond the ridiculous place it is now.

You are conflating and making dichotomous terms that aren't: "personal" vs.
"business" is not a valid comparison here.

"Personal Computer" is in fact a careless marketing term with no fixed
and/or coherent meaning.

I recommend you move this debate to ChatGPT.  It has endless patience for
this nonsense.  I don't.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:34 AM CAREY SCHUG  wrote:

>
>
> On 05/28/2024 1:05 PM CDT Sellam Abraham  wrote:
>
> What if a corporation in 1970 purchased an IBM 360 for each of their
> employees for their individual personal use?  Now what?
>
> Sellam
>
> Thanks for carrying the proposition to the list.  I didn't realize I only
replied to you privately.


> 1. I don't believe ANYBODY could purchase a 360. You had to lease them.
>

Why should that matter?  Shouldn't it be how they were used rather than how
they were acquired?  What if grandpa buys an Apple ][ for his grandson,
presumably for his personal use?  But what if grandson is CEO of a
corporation and is going to use it for corporate purposes?  What if an
organization purchases a large multi-user computer, keeps it in storage as
a backup (so it's never used), then years later when it's no longer fit for
organizational use sells it as surplus to a guy named Phil who brings it
home and installs it in his garage and uses it by himself for fun?  What if
he then starts a business and then starts using it for the business, and he
hires other people and they start using it as well?  Since it was purchased
by a corporation initially, does it make it not a personal computer, even
though it was previously only ever used personally by a person that
purchased it?


> 2. do you know of such a company? (with a significant number of employees,
> not a lone entrepreneur).  I figure asking means that maybe you do.  and
> since I believe no 360 but maybe the model 20 (not a real 360) or the
> model 22 would plug into household power it seems unlikely unless a tax
> dodge.
>

So you concede it could have been done.  Butt seriously, what if a large
corporation purchases a bunch of IBM PCs (disregard that they are called
"PC", i.e. "Personal Computer") for individual employees for their personal
use in their office at work?  Are they not "personal computers" because the
corporation purchased them?


>
> 3. if it was one purchase order, it sounds like ONE for the personal
> computer tally, vs thousands for the not-personal tally.  Remember we still
> need to have enough computers to be 10% (or negotiated percentage) of the
> total produced.  One exception does not change everything.
>

What if a thousand people got together to crowdfund the purchase of a
computer for poor little Timmy?  What if that computer was a Cray 1?

I think you need to put away the purchaser criterion.

I should have repeated my other suggestion.  Only computers NOT
> depreciated/expensed count as personal.  If depreciated, it is a business
> computer for business purposes.
>

Are you an accountant by any chance?


> to summarize any or all of the following:
>
> -- if depreciated or expensed  (reducing income) it is business, otherwise
> personal.  **
> --10% of purchases (a lot counts as ONE purchase, including "100-200 per
> month for 3 years") must be out of household funds (per income tax filings)
> for and used for household education, not for earning claimed income.
> --by some criteria, be able to plug into private home power for a
> reasonable subset of the population.
>

I love it, short and simple.  I'll start printing this heuristic onto a
durable plastic card and we can start distributing them to all the VCF
attendees so they can properly determine whether a computer is personal or
not.  We'll then have to establish a standards organization to ensure that
people are properly trained on how to read expense reports, go through
corporate books, compute depreciation (and power usage, which will require
electronics training), etc.


> ** There could be tax reasons/dodges (not saying they are legal): (1) a
> small business could expense them immediately (vs depreciate over years) by
> titling them in employees' or families' names, (2) a private individual
> could depreciate even though not actually doing any significant amount of
> income earning work on them (3) would have been expensed/depreciated but
> not enough income to be of any advantage, (4) probably many others, ask a
> shady tax lawyer.
>
> --Carey
>
>
How about can we be done with this now? :D

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Pragmatically [was: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:57 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk 
wrote:

> I still return to.
>
> -->Who bought them?<--
>

What if Dad bought one for use by the entire family?

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, May 28, 2024, 7:16 AM Paul Koning via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> And that makes sense.  Consider that cell phones have always clearly been
> personal phones, but the first ones were definitely not priced for the
> "average person", not by a long shot.
>
> paul
>

Are you comparing a telephone, which can and only ever has (until the
speakerphone) been able to be used by one person and one person only?

The term "personal" as we use it for computers does not at all apply to
telephones.  Telephones are more akin to toothbrushes in terms of their
use, or in a family situation, the toilet.  It's not at all a fitting
analogy.

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sun, May 26, 2024, 12:37 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mike Katz via cctalk 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 12:21 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Mike Katz 
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
> >
> > You see, we are back to my original comment.  The definition of Personal
> > Computer is quite fluid.  Does it have to be called a Personal Computer
> in
> > advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single
> person,
> > in any environment, constitute a personal computer.
>
> Surely when we say "Personal Computer" we mean "Turing Complete Digital
> Personal Computer" it is just a tad long winded to say so.
> ... and if we simply say "digital" which excludes many devices that still
> includes the Abacus 
>
> Dave
>

The abacus is no more a computer than a ruler, or maybe a slide rule.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 5:16 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> You see, we are back to my original comment.  The definition of Personal
> Computer is quite fluid.  Does it have to be called a Personal Computer
> in advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a
> single person, in any environment, constitute a personal computer.


Perhaps in the future people will not so much be fixated on the terms we
use and debate today and will instead mark progress in computing by some
other more sociologically-centered metric, like adoption of computers at
home.  That seemed to really take off around 1975, with the public release
of the Altair 8800.

Time will tell.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 1:33 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> 
>
> I'm just adding some thoughts to the discussion.
>
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> https://oldcalculatormuseum.com


Rick,

I always appreciate your incredibly informative contributions.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 11:05 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Because ONE *developer* of the LINC used his position to take one home and
> use it the way we currently use "personal computers" does not mean EVERY
> OTHER LINC was also a personal computer.  Did he pay the full street
> price?  I'm guessing not.  If you want to put a plaque on that single unit,
> fine, but I am sure other one-off home brew machines need to be included
> too.  I think here were are talking about production machines available for
> sale to all.
>

I agree with you on the Altair.  I was only submitting my comment on the
LINC in the scenario where we're throwing context out the window and
relying on revisionism to define the term.  But in actuality, there were
more than one LINC made, and the design was the basis for the DEC MINC-11.
So it has some of the requirements.


> I believe some obsolete warships (certainly ICBM silos) have been sold to
> private individuals. Does that retroactively mean the original warships and
> ICBMs are "personal yachts and weapons"?  I'll bet one rich guy bought a
> Mississippi riverboat for personal use, does that make them *ALL* into
> "personal pleasure craft"?  That is a slippery slope.
>

> --Carey
>

Hey, if the government needs a fully-provisioned aircraft carrier to defend
the nation, then so do I.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, May 25, 2024, 8:14 AM Jon Elson via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > The problem with this debate is that the definition of
> > Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so
> > that the writers opinion is fact.
>
> Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal
> computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT
> more, and drew much more power.  (300 vacuum tubes, 3000
> Germanium diodes,  drum memory.)  but, one guy could program
> it and run it.
>
> The LINC comes in a close second.
>
> Jon
>

I know a guy in a basement in Germany that has three supercomputers up and
running, that he installed and maintains himself.  Except for when he
invites guests over, they're very personal.

That being said, I don't know that the Bendix G-15 fits the bill, but the
LINC very much does, especially considering it was kinda of intended to be
a single user machine, and at least one of the team that put it together
brought one home and used it there.

If I were writing the definitive history of personal computing, I'd maybe
start with SIMON, then the LINC, then eventually the Altair.

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:48 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> And Sellam is simply wrong.
>
> Rich
>

You got your opinions, I got mine. And old Billy Boy has some skeletons in
his closet.  Perhaps literally.

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 9:45 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Just pointing out that "firsts" are very difficult.

...

> "First" is a tricky term, like "best".
>
> --Chuck


Yep, which is part of the canonical debate ;)  This is why I and many
others in the hobby removed the term "first" from our vocabularies when
speaking of vintage computers.

It's kind of pointless anyway as people tend to want a starting point in
time at which they can point and say, "That is where it began", when in
reality all new invention is just a continuum of improvement over time and
occasionally a particular improvement makes more impact than others and
gets elevated to "first" status.  It's nice for newspaper headlines and
such but for historians it's a waste of time (as we've borne witness to
countless times over the years as this discussion re-rages periodically).

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 8:34 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/24/24 07:57, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
>
> > (I could be mistaken about the mentioned 8008 device, but I think that
> was a training device, no?)
>
> Do your homewoork--the MCM-70 ran APL, had cassette storage and a
> display and keyboard.  The MITS 8800 had nothing other than RAM and a
> CPU.  APL would have been a distant dream.
>
> Of course, the MCM0/70 was Canadian, and not USAn...
>
> --Chuck
>

This is on the Canonical List of ClassicCmp Debate Topics and is a dead
horse so beaten that there's nothing left but teeth and fur at this point.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Experience using an Altair 8800 ("Personal computer" from 70s)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 24, 2024, 2:45 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> > On 5/23/24 12:53, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:
> >>   First Personal Computer (long before IBM PC)
>
> This would go back to the 50s or earlier. The LGP-30 and comparable
> machines are considered as personal computers, too.
>

But was it called a "personal computer"? And was it designed to be
"personal"?

>>   First system Bill Gates wrote code for (long before Microsoft)
>

> Didn't he write code for DEC machines at his school before that?
>

Yes, poorly.

> I don't think the "first" applies in this case.  The MCM/70 used an 8008
> > and was complete computer with storage and display--something the MITS
> > 8800 was not.
>
> And looking beyond the Great American barrier ;-) there was the MICRAL N,
> much earlier than the MITS, and considered as the first complete
> commercial microprocessor based computer, i.e. not a kit and available to
> normal customers.
>

But it doesn't meet the other criteria Dave laid out. Most people these
days have never heard of the Micral, but even normies might've heard of the
Altair 8800 because of the very notoriety it has today because of it's
significance back then.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 1:15 PM John Foust  wrote:

> At 01:32 PM 5/22/2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> >His and his wife
> >Gwen's (god rest her soul as well) personal collecting and the museum at
> >DEC was the basis for the Boston Computer Museum, which effectively went
> >west and became the Computer History Museum.
>
> He was quite sensitive about this.  I made the same mistake, referring
> to it as the "Boston Computer Museum."  He told me:
>
> "Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the
> Boston Computer Museum...  Boston was a temporary home when computing
> passed through New England, but the city itself gave nothing to it.
> ...  As a former collector, founder, and board member of the
> Digital Computer Museum > The Computer Museum >> current Computer History
> Museum
> (a name I deplore and that exists only because of the way the Museum left
> Boston)
> I have always been a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as
> many
> hands as possible, and this includes selling museum artifacts when
> appropriate.
> In essence a whole industry of museums and collectors is essential."
>
> - John
>

I appreciate the clarification.

I agree that it's a shame that the CHM couldn't be called TCM.  "Computer
History Museum" is a fairly awkward name.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 10:19 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It's a slog, but if you can make it through Gordon Bell's book, "Computer
> Structures Readings and Examples" you realize Gordon is a "father of
> vintage computing", in addition to his involvement with the first computer
> museum in Boston.  He knew better than anyone the historical significance
> of computing well before the term "vintage computer" existed.
>
> And there is that stuff he did at DEC
>
> Bill
>

He really is.  Perhaps "Grandfather" is more appropriate.  His and his wife
Gwen's (god rest her soul as well) personal collecting and the museum at
DEC was the basis for the Boston Computer Museum, which effectively went
west and became the Computer History Museum.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: C. Gordon Bell, Creator of a Personal Computer Prototype, Dies at 89

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Gordon Bell was a real delightful man, and most unassuming.  He was always
warm and friendly to everyone, and it was a pleasure and honor to have
known him.

Sellam

On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 7:07 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Ars Technica
>
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/gordon-bell-an-architect-of-our-digital-age-dies-at-age-89/
>
>
> New York Times Obit
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/21/technology/c-gordon-bell-dead.html?unlocked_article_code=1.t00.xAnm.sr2ZsjF5OSti=url-share
>

[cctalk] Re: interlace [was: NTSC TV demodulator ]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Is it perhaps OBD--On-Board Diagnostics?

Sellam

On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 11:06 AM Wayne S via cctalk 
wrote:

> The setup on the earlier monitors was sometimes call “ODB” , don‘t know
> why.  Was equivalent to setup.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 20, 2024, at 11:02, Wayne S  wrote:
> >
> > In the vt100, setup menu “B” had an interlace on or off setting.
> > I just looked it up.
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On May 20, 2024, at 10:51, Paul Koning via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >>
>  On May 20, 2024, at 1:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Young , hah. No i’m old 70.
> >>> The pc monitors, not Tv, always had a setup menu. Even the Vt100
> series let you choose interlace if you needed.
> >>
> >> VT100?  I don't think so.  And yes, it has a setup menu, but that's
> setup of the terminal functionality, not the monitor part.
> >>
> >> The earliest monitors could only handle one format.  A major innovation
> was "multisync" where the monitor would determine the horizontal and
> vertical sweep rate and line count, and display things the right way.  The
> first PC I owned had one of those, and as far as I can remember it had
> nothing that one would call a "setup menu".
> >>
> >> The reason interlace matters is not the very slight slope of the scan
> line in analog monitors, but rather the fact that alternate frames are
> offset by half the line spacing of the basic frame, so each frame sweeps
> out the gaps in between the lines scanned by the preceding frame.  It
> matters to get that right, otherwise you're not correctly displaying
> consecutive rows of pixels.  In particular, when doing scan conversion
> (from analog format to a digital X/Y pixel raster) you have to offset Y by
> one every other frame if interlace is used, but not if it isn't.
> >>
> >>   paul
> >>
> >>
>

[cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 9:13 AM Mike Stein via cctalk 
wrote:

> What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been
> almost entirely ignored.
>
> The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407
> machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here
> and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every
> bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies
> like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely
> documented.
>
> It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely
> mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and
> actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state
> electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line
> printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc.
>
> Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column
> punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers,
> multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom
> devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device
> that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so
> little documentation and examples remain today.
>

Before my dreams were derailed, I was working on acquiring and assembling a
complete punched card data processing set up, just to experience it.

It would be fun to do such if I still had the resources and the time and
nothing else to do, but it takes a lot of time and resources, whereas an
old digital computer, even some of the big power hungry beasts of the 60s,
can still do something more interesting than just move paper around.

I would compare it to the reason why interest in old radios peaked and then
died out in the 2000s: all the people who had an interest in that stuff
passed on; and there's only so much an old radio can do.  It can receive
and deliver an audio signal, poorly.  That's an activity one might rather
enjoy on modern equipment.  The same with old punched card equipment.  It's
fun to run cards through it, but other than that, most people don't even
get what it's doing.  It's doing one thing of the whole "computing"
process, poorly.  There's no much interest in that, and only so many people
can devote the space, power, and maintenance to an entire punched card data
processing setup.

That being said, I believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM
Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in
Sindelfingen, Germany may still be demonstrating that very thing, or at
least they were when I visited in the mid-2000s with Hans Franke.

Here's an old article about it ==>
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/history-galore-at-ibm-museum-20050201-gdkljv.html

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:56 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Thank you, Josh. How did your passion start with classical computers?
> Maybe this helps in understanding the generation?
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>

I was 26 when I joined the list in 1997.  I was a younger member of the
crowd back then, because my experience with computers was limited to
micros, whereas a lot of the discussion on the list was about minicomputers
and mainframes that came well before my time, so I imagine that there were
members in their 50s and 60s in the early days.

Now I'm in my 50s and have observed 25 more years of invention and
development in the computer field, and the growth of this hobby in terms of
size and reach (it's now global).  Now there are guys (and gals) in their
60s, 70s and 80s involved in the hobby, maintaining old systems, attending
VCFs and reminiscing on mailing lists.  It's definitely become
multigenerational.

I see so many parallels in the hobby currently to my time when I first got
into it.  The things younger folks are doing today with the benefit of
coming into a world more increasingly computerized than the one I did, and
having access at a younger age to the tools of technology and having a
comfort and proficiency with them, can do stuff I could only dream about a
quarter century ago, just as I then was able to easily and readily
accomplish things with old machines--with the benefit of the internet--that
those who came before me only dreamt about in their time.

The most amazing thing to me about computer history back in the 1990s and
early 2000s when this hobby really started to get going is that we lived at
a time when many of the people who literally invented the industry were
still around to be interviewed.  It would be like a classic car collector
being able to go meet Ford and ask him questions in person about the Model
A or whatever.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

I am seeing this hobby growing beyond my own expectations, and a lot of
younger people are coming into it.  Many people in their teens and twenties
are newly discovering the 8-bit computers with which I grew up.  I had no
concept of computer history until I fell into the hobby, and was fascinated
to learn all about the computers that came before my time, including the
S-100s of the 1970s, then the mini-computers of the prior generation on
which the S-100 machines were based, and then the mainframes on which the
minicomputers were based.  I was floored when I first learned that the
ENIAC was up and running in the 1940s--a digital computer in the 1940s!!
Today it seems almost obvious, because I've studied--basically
lived--computer history for so long now.

Like with any passion, you either get it or you don't.  Out of the handful
of computer professionals you spoke to, maybe 1 of them will delve deeper
into the history and come away somewhat interested, perhaps inspired in
some way, but for the most part, their career does not depend on knowing
where it all started, just like a mechanic can know every last part of a
car without needing to know about Ford, the Dodge brothers, etc.

But as new people continue to find their way into this hobby, each will
find their niche, and as long as we today do a good job of preserving what
came before us to present up to the people who come after, there will at
least be that opportunity for newcomers to discover and explore the various
facets of computer history.

In short, yes, it will live on, thanks in part to us.

Sellam

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 8:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their
> thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a
> Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I
> think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with
> the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the
> early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
> What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost
> ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their
> recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely
> nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a
> sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many
> of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
> the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging
> folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to
> anyone. I am turning fifty myself)  I sense that no other generation
> following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M
> s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is
> there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
> personal computers? Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: CORRECTIONS Re: DOS p-System Pascal:

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 10, 2024, 3:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> Microsoft had to pay $120 million, and Stac had to pay $13.6 million.
> But Microsoft also settled some claims out of court with a $39.9 million
> dollar investment in Stac, and paid $43 million in royalties.
> Yes, billg had a bad day.  comparable to my losing $100
>

I was going to say, if it was only $100K then old Billy Boy would've
laughed all the way out of court and on the way home.

I remember the Stac lawsuit. It was just another company actually doing
innovation whose technology Microschlock tried to appropriate in its
typically and despicably underhanded ways. Stac was one of the few (only?)
companies to come out pretty well after "partnering" with MS.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 1:36 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Fri, 10 May 2024, Stuff Received via cctalk wrote:
> > I recall that MS sold a Pascal compiler, possibly from someone else.  It
> was
> > very slow and buggy.  I heard a story that to speed up disc access, MS
> put
> > FAT-manipulation code in the actual compiler and that occasionally
> destroyed
> > the FAT.
>
> Sorry Stuff, ain't so.
>
> Bob Wallace wrote the Microsoft Pascal compiler, while he was at
> Microsoft.  He was their tenth employee.  He told me that their runtime
> library (which he didn't write) is buggy and slow.
> So slow that it made benchmarks with their Fortran compiler (which also
> used the buggy and slow runtime library), perform SLOWER than interpreted
> BASIC.
>

I developed quite a bit and for many years with Microsoft C v6.0 under DOS
and it was not bad.  The compiler was decently fast and once 486s and then
Pentiums became available compile time wasn't really an issue.  It was
actually the least shitty Microsoft product I've ever used, next to MS-DOS
6.22.  It was actually pretty good.


> If you had FAT corruption issues, perhaps you had SMARTDRV enabled with
> write cacheing (which did occasionally mess up the FAT).
>

A good example of why I generally hate MS software.  But the solution was
easy: just turn off write-caching.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 10, 2024, 7:53 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> There's a third class that I haven't (yet) mentioned.  Design a machine
> to solve a particular problem or class of problems.  Saxpy was such a
> machine; we have bitcoin ASICs and our latest AI ventures.
>
> What was the CM-1 programmed in?
>
> --Chuck
>

Of course, there's the Manchester Baby.

Sellam

>
>

[cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 5:10 PM Paul Koning via cctalk 
wrote:

> > On May 9, 2024, at 7:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > One of the things that _I_ love about C is that it is easy to get it out
> of the way when you want to do something lower level.
> >
> > Rather than feeble type system, it could have had a requirement to
> explicitly "cast" anything being used as a "wrong" type.
> >
> > One of Alan Holub's books about C is titled
> > "Enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot"
>
> True, and Stroustrup added that "and C++ is a cannon that blows off your
> entire leg".


That's what compiler warnings are for:

"Warning on line 33: you are about to blow your leg off."

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: DOS p-System Pascal: (Was: Saga of CP/M)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:08 PM John via cctalk 
wrote:

> Pascal was the language of choice over at Apple in the original MacOS
> days, and as Mike has noted Turbo Pascal was popular enough on the PC;
> it was more, I think, that the UCSD-style language-environment-as-OS
> paradigm never caught on in the microcomputer world. Early consumer
> micros of course had ROM BASIC, but once you got past that to a
> reasonably full-featured operating system, there was no compelling
> reason for it to be tightly coupled to one particular language/compiler
> when it could just as easily treat compilers as Yet Another Program and
> support arbitrarily many.
>

The UCSD shell was atrocious.  The compiler was slow.  The editor was
terrible.  The entire experience was reminiscent of working on a dumb
terminal connected to a mainframe, when it could've taken advantage of the
features of the personal computer.

I hated it.

I hate it.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #4

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 1:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> At NCC - Anaheim, I bought John Draper lunch (I never exercised with him)


Those in the know chuckled.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Random items on Pascal #3

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 1:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Turbo-Pascal was quite popular.  At the annnouncement of it (West Coast
> Computer Faire), Phillipe Kahn (Borland) was so inundated with "yeah, but
> what
> about C?" questions, that by the end of the first day, "Turbo C is coming
> soon"
>

I learned on Turbo C.  It was a fantastic little IDE.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 8:53 AM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> This is an article on it but I still think it's total bunk:
>
> https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/


"There is now research to suggest that demagnetization of computer discs
(including CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-R, and other similar disc
media) *result
in reduced block error rates*."

It's still the same data coming off the medium, whether it has reduced
block error rates or not.

This is so comically horseshitient that I'm just going to go revolutionize
audio with bold new claims that I'm an Audio Shaman that can exorcise your
gear to clean it of the dark spirits that are haunting your audio signal,
introducing "audio ghosting" that possesses the listener and affects how
they perceive and therefore hear the music.  I will change the listener's
perception by spiritually cleansing their equipment.

For $9,999 (plus room and board in the most lavish local hotel) I will
visit you in person and conduct the ceremony in front of your setup.  And
change your perception.

Taking bookings now, don't wait as slots fill up fast.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 2:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 5/8/24 11:54, John Maxwell via cctalk wrote:
> > I recall an ad for a 'double-helix, special' 6-foot power cord going for
> $500 (or more) claiming that it would make your main power amplifier sound
> better with better mains power - that's about the time I started calling
> them "audio-fools"
> >
> > A quick search of these revealed a power cord at 2.5 meters going for
> $27,000 from Siltech Cables or a Nordost Odin Gold power cord of 1.25
> meters for $35,000 in a review from November, 2021. I guess I am in the
> wrong business (or am too honest!)
>
> What good is a high-end AC cable if you don't have a receptacle to match?
>
> https://www.thecableco.com/swo-xxx-outlet.html  Only $123 for a 15A 120V
> outlet.
>

More here:
>
> https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets.htm
>
> If I knew that this stuff wasn't real, I'd figure that it was an April
> Fool's prank.
>
> --Chuck



Why stop there?  A truly dedicated audiophile would run new pure silver
electrical wire through the walls directly to the breaker box.

Then you gotta upgrade to the breaker box that was disinfected from
transient spirits through an exorcism, and then special 24K solid
gold-contact breakers in inert nylon housings.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Saga of CP/M

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 6:54 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 5/3/24 18:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> > PL/M (think "PL/1") was a high level programming language for
> > microprocessors.
>
> Notable that a subset of PL/I was marketed for CP/M around 1981 or so.
>
> I've heard from some folks that Gary developed ISIS for Intel.  That is
> definitely not true. It was the work of Jim Stein and Terry Burgett.
> Disk allocation was quite different from CP/M.  ISIS used a list-sort of
> structure, like Unix.
>

A weird question: do you know if Terry Burgett had a cult?

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 11:03 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> People are strange--and interesting.
>
> --Chuck
>

But mostly strange :D

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The thing that many audiophiles fail to grasp is that there's a
> difference between listening and hearing.  The fact is that I'm just as
> content listening to a recording of an old scratchy 78 with, say, Albert
> Schweitzer (yes, that guy) playing Bach on organ as the latest
> wunderkind flogging at the same work in surround-sound Dolbyized,
> whatever.I hear what AS was trying to say--he could have recorded
> the stuff on a steam calliope and still have gotten his point across.
>
> My take anyway--it's rather difficult to explain.
>
> --Chuck
>

I guess you're saying: the media is NOT the massage.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:20 AM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > First, in general, there are so many apparent reviews of so many
> products, it is hard to believe they are all scams. How can there be enough
> fools to buy enough of those products to have that many different ones?
>
> I see you're new to the intersection of the audiophile world and online
> selling :P
>

Belief is an incredible force.  As it has been said (and as I have come to
discover again and again in my dealings with humans): it's easier to fool
someone than to explain to them that they've been fooled.

Or as Markus Twainius put it: "How easy it is to make people believe a lie,
and hard it is to undo that work again!"

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 2:48 PM Liam Proven via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> I failed _O_ level mathematics, and to get onto a science degree
> course, I had to do another 6 months of remedial maths just to get me
> through the exam. To be told "easy if you did the A level" would have
> made me angrily walk out in disgust if it wasn't a mandatory course.
>

I sucked at math pretty much throughout school.  I took first level
Calculus three times before I finally got my mind wrapped around the
Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (with a little help from LSD in showing me
infinity).  However, it never prevented me from writing rather involved and
complicated computer programs starting in my teen years.  For college, I
decided I was either going to get into MIT or not go at all, and when I was
told that my math grades would not cut it to get into MIT, well then that
settled it.  I somehow managed to be successful in spite.  Thus proving to
be complete horseshit all the educators that said if you want to get into a
computer career you must be good at math.

That worked. It took me a weekend and was no direct use because at the
> end of about 32-33 hours of work, I could do a chi-squared test by
> hand. So, indirectly, it achieved its purpose.
>

Very nice.  By implementing the algorithm in the computer it planted it in
your mind.  Great story to illustrate how great a mind-building tool the
computer and programming is.

It could be said that my math skills were really lacking in the area of
logic, in that I did pretty OK in Algebra 1 and 2, but barely passed
Geometry as I could never get proofs right, and I ended up with a D in
Trigonometry (but there were extenuating circumstances with that).  It
could have been because I hated homework and studying and Geometry and Trig
stuff requires a lot of memorization.  But I noticed that when I started
going back to school in my 30s towards earning a degree my years of
programming had structured my mind to where I could break down problems
into little steps and then solve each individually until I arrived at the
final answer, much like how one writes a computer program.  About a dozen
years ago I took up law as a "hobby" and threw myself into that.  It turns
out programming and law share very similar constructs: a pleading is like a
program; the rules of court are the syntax of the basic "programming
language" in which the pleading is written; case law are like library
calls; and the court is the computer.  You submit your program/pleading to
the computer/court and it runs...or not, and crashes.  And just like a
computer, I started to figure out ways that the court can be hacked ;)

Anyway, I noticed that when I went back to recreational 6502 programming a
few years ago, not only did everything come back to me relatively quickly
from my teens, but I found that I was just much better at assembling code,
which I attribute to my law hobby.  It then began to seem that my practice
of law got better after I spent long periods writing 6502 code.  Each lent
themselves towards helping me get better at the other.  It was awesome
synergy.

But the point is: not everyone can do "high school algebra." I do not
> know what age "high school" means to you but very basic secondary
> school algebra was _extremely_ hard for me and took years of real work
> to master.
>
...

> "It's as easy as algebra" is reinforcing my point about this stuff
> _not_ being easy, natural, obvious, helpful, convenient, clear,
> meaningful or useful for most people.
>

I think it has more to do with just learning the construct, or the
language, of the subject.  Once you get over that hump, one's basic
intelligence then fills in.  Every subject has its particular jargon and
principles, and having basic competency in that subject is really in
memorizing the jargon and principles so you can properly "speak in the
language" of the subject.


> I wrote an article about 3 new BASIC releases for its 60th anniversary:
> https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/03/basic_60th_birthday/
>
> Do go read the first comment.
>
> It shows how BASIC was immediately apprehensible and memorable in a
> way that APL never would be.
>

It was hard going back to BASIC programming after programming in C and
other higher level languages for some many years, but once I got back into
it (Applesoft specifically) and remembered all the structured programming
techniques my high school computer science teacher forced us to learn, and
then applied my years of subsequent experience in crafting and organizing
programs, the limitations became easy to overcome.  It's fun to overcome
the limitations of a simple language and still make a good program, and
where I need some specific functionally I desire, Applesoft is extensible
through the & "command", which is more of a machine language bridge in that
the BASIC interpreter will jump to a user-definable vector at which you put
your custom token interpretation code.  For example, I made an entire low
resolution 

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 11:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/6/24 11:28, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
> > You do need a very strong magnet. I’ve put 3.5 floppies on top of a mag
> tape demagnitizer ( not technically called that, but you know what i mean)
> and it had no effect at all. I could still read them fine in my pc. I
> surmised that the magnetic field generated was not strong enough to get
> through the plastic disk shield. Gave up after that.
>
> I made my own PM demagnetizer (I do own a bulk videotape eraser also,
> but this one is so convenient and works very well).  The trick was to
> use two magnets with like poles facing.  I got the magnets from a
> magnetron--it took a fair amount of clamping to get the things set in
> place.   Unlike poles facing doesn't work, BTW.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/MUKTExa.jpg
>
> --Chuck
>

At the old Alameda County Computer Resource Center (the non-profit computer
recycler I was shacked up with before I got my own warehouse and started my
own recycling operation), James ("God") designed a bulk demagnetizer that
accommodated several hundred 3.5" floppies at a time.  He'd run it for I
think 20 minutes (the period of time he determined was required for 100%
erasure of data), which also had the side effect of heating up the disks,
which had the desirable side effect of making it much easier to peel off
the labels.  They sold bulk recycled 3.5" disks and made good money off it
(this is late 1990s).

I wish I could remember the details of how he made it, but he basically
took some existing thing and either modded it in some way or simply
re-purposed it from its intended purpose to conveniently demagnetize floppy
disks.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Netflix Series: American Conspiracy/Octopus Murders

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> There was some movie magic, so no running version of promis. I did the
> screen design myself for the TVI 950 based on pictures of screens running
> the software that Christian and Zach provided.
>
> They came last year and did a day of filming after a couple days of setting
> up the set at my place.  Supposedly I was the only person they could find
> with a VAX 11/780 running that had somewhere they could film it (presumably
> also in their budget).
>
> They did pay me a bit for the location, but the whole experience was great.
> I'm happy it finally came out so I can talk about it.
>
> Patrick Finnegan
>

The nice thing is that this should lead to further similar engagements for
you in the future.

Good work.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: New VCF Video bumper

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

The weird noise at the beginning is confusing.  Sounds like it starts off
on a street somewhere.

Sellam

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 10:03 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The Vintage Computer Federation is looking for a new bumper to add to the
> front and back of all their new videos.
> There are 7 different versions. Vote on the one that you like best!
>
> https://forms.gle/Y9Qrj26xokeFXjub6
>

[cctalk] Re: Help request with fundraising campaign to save historic computers

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 9:28 AM Gianluca Bonetti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> ...
> I am helping Museo del Computer with this fundraising effort in order to
> save a large number of machines with significant historic value, including
> some Sperry Univac systems.
> ...


I would want to know more of the story and also to see more photos before I
would consider donating.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 12:48 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> >> Where would you fit the Tandy Model 100 in here? Ultimately it
> >> supported a disk drive, ran basic and also sported an expansion box
> >> that included video support and a floppy.
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> > Ultimately, so did the TRS-80.  At least Model I, III and 4.
> > and ethernet, too.  Come to think of it, so does the Color
> > Computer.  Not sure where we are going with this.  :-)
>
> The "Coco" ("Color Computer") was similar to Microsoft Standalone BASIC,
> particularly in its disk format.
>
> The TRS80 models 1, 3, and 4 had file commands in their BASICs.
> They ran under TRS-DOS.
>
>
> The Saga Of TRSDOS:   (long (TLDR?))
> ...

--
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com


Great write-up, Fred.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday...

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, May 3, 2024, 1:28 AM Smith, Wayne via cctalk 
wrote:

> I looked up the Jan. 1975 issue of Popular Electronics in the Copyright
> Office's Periodicals Digest.  It was published on Nov. 19, 1974 if you are
> looking for an actual anniversary date.
>

The January issue was certainly not available in November of 1974.

When did it actually get sent out and start showing up in people's
mailboxes?

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 2, 2024, 7:58 PM Just Kant via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>  ROM BASICs outlived their usefulness very quickly.


Certainly a very subjective statement.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, May 2, 2024, 1:33 PM Gordon Henderson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> I'm still fond of BASIC (or Basic, whatever).


Since it's an acronym it should be written as BASIC (or I guess B.A.S.I.C.).

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 8:03 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Our booth bimbo gave herself the title, "BAIT"
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred
>

Boobs And Invitation Technician?

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: What to take to a vintage computer show

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 7:48 PM Jim Brain via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> My paper, pens, pencils, post it, duct tape, batteries, cash, blank
> disks, memory cards, blank CDs, blank DVDs, small ethernet cable, small
> USB cables (the rollup kind) are all in my computer bag, so they go
> everywhere, as well as earphones, stereo splitter, a few checks, travel
> power supply for my main laptop, extra travel mouse, USB pen drives.
>

Don't forget to bring a towel.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive
> programming languages.  We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others,
> based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart.
>
> --Chuck
>

And where are all those other languages today?

I rest my case.

;)

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Considering the time that it was introduced to the world, and what it was
intended to do, and what it did do, and how it went on to become something
much, much greater than what Kemeny and Kurtz ever envisioned (even though
they didn't like much of it), BASIC does not get nearly as much credit as
it deserves.

Sellam

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:05 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Wed, 1 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote:
> > I'm sorry but the original BASIC as run on the Dartmouth Time Sharing
> System
> > was compiled.
>
> I wasn't around Dartmouth, and my first experiences with BASIC were all
> interpreted.
>
> I had run a trivial program in it on a Silent 700 connected through a
> phone line, long before I got my first personal computer (TRS80).
>
>
> Thank you for the details of the history.
>
>
> When Microsoft introduced "BASCOM" (their BASIC compiler), my first uses
> of it were primarily to make my source code less easily accessible to
> would-be infringers. :-)
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

[cctalk] Re: PCs in home vs businesses (70s/80s)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 1:03 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm a youngster when it comes to this hobby, being manufactured myself
> in the early years of the 90's. As such i cannot really quote from my

...

>
> Thanks for reading my TED talk,
>
> Josh Rice
>

Nice write-up.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday...

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 11:53 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Magazine cover january, and into 1975 the revolution.  So I'd say all
> year.  Not one specific date
> Bill
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2024, 12:05 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 26 Apr 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> > > It really is a momentous event, and should be properly honored and
> > > celebrated.  Wow, half a century.
> > > Thanks for bringing this up.
> >
> > Is this half a century from when they said, "Hey, you know what would be
> > neat to build?"
> > or from when they started designing?
> > or got a preliminary design done?
> > built a prototype?
> > announced it?
> > started taking orders?
> > started filling orders?
> >
> > Fred
>

In my experience, talking with many older computer people during the
earlier years that I began collecting in earnest (late 90s, early 00s),
their introduction to computing came by way of buying and building an
Altair 8800 kit based on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular
Electronics, or at least being captivated by it.

I call it the Big Bang of the Microcomputer Era.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Altair 8800 50th birthday...

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Based on what I have read, along with a few discussions I have had with
> people involved in the early S-100 "scene" around now is the 50th birthday
> (or conception day) of the Altair 8800.  Certainly, next year could
> properly
> be called its 50th birthday.  Anyway, I'm thinking about "painting the show
> blue" with Altairs and IMSAIs for the next few vintage computer festivals.
> Anyone else interested?
>
> Bill S.
>

Hi Bill.

It really is a momentous event, and should be properly honored and
celebrated.  Wow, half a century.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Charles Stross, replay the bubble of 1995, alt history plus retrocomp

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:25 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Well, if you are into this kind of stuff (I am)... Stross is an s-f
> author, formerly a programmer (ages ago but I think it still shows -
> perhaps he secretly writes his own tools in Perl) and he has a
> blog. This time, he explores the idea that internet "bub" delivered on
> its promises, rather than sucking investors up.
>
> http www.antipope.org
> charlie/blog-static/2024/04/the-radiant-future-of-1995.html
>
> Of course, readers make comments, so it gets a bit more interesting.


I stopped reading when I got to this part: "...and it's clearly being
pumped up by fascist-adjacent straight white males with an unadmitted
political agenda, namely to shore up the structures of privilege and
entitlement that keep them wealthy."

Seems like a hormonal problem.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Bomar 901b My wife found in my stuff. Is this as scarce at it seems?s,?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Ed,

From now on, when posting to this mailing list, can you please construct
complete sentences that actually express ideas and concepts to which an
ordinary human can respond?

Sellam

On Tue, Apr 16, 2024, 4:59 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk 
wrote:

> I bought mine 30 years ago at garage sake. For 50 cents
>
> Sent from AOL on Android
>
>   On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 4:38 AM, Adrian Godwin
> wrote:   901B is the first pocket calculator I remember - I don't know if
> there were earlier ones. I don't think they're exactly rare but later ones
> such as MX10 are certainly easier to find. They're often in the same case
> as a 901B but with slightly enhanced functionality such as 10 digits. % key
> etc.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 12:31 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Yes. Cell phone horrible typing
> The Consumer Electronics Hall of Fame: Bowmar 901B
> Ok can not find b pricevonly c and d
>
> Sent from AOL on Android
>
>   On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 3:41 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk<
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:   I think he means Bowmar
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-consumer-electronics-hall-of-fame-bowmar-901b
>
>
>
> > On 04/16/2024 5:34 AM CDT ED SHARPE via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > No bomar brand
> >
> > Sent from AOL on Android
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 7:15 PM, Wayne S
> wrote: Bomar as in the Bomber Aircraft?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Apr 15, 2024, at 19:04, ED SHARPE via cctalk 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bomar 901b My wife found in my stuff. Is this as scarce at it seems?s,?
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from AOL on Android
>
> Grownups never understand anything by themselves and it is tiresome for
> children to be always and forever explaining things to them,
>
> Antoine de Saint-Exupery in The Little Prince
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Drum memory on pdp11's? Wikipedia thinks so....

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 10:19 AM Rick Bensene via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Bill wrote:
>
> The guy that took me on the tour said that the wall behind the drum had to
> be specially reinforced as if the drum exited the reinforced cabinet due to
> some kind of failure while at speed, it would have gone through any
> conventional wall like it was made of paper, and another wall which was the
> side of the building, and would have fallen 6 floors to the ground below,
> which obviously would have been disastrous.
>
> Apparently if there was a failure, due to the direction the drum rotated
> it'd come out the  back of the cabinet rather than the front.  I was also
> told that the drum cabinet had special mounting that was a large structure
> of steel beams in the mezzanine level beneath the datacenter that connected
> the mounts to the main support beams for the building, because the
> gyroscopic effects of the drum would have torn out anything else.
>
> The mounts had to be inspected every six months to look for cracks or any
> other sign of stress-induced problems.
>
> -Rick
>

A computer that literally required a specifically steel-reinforced building
in order to operate.  Now that's what you call Old Iron.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Drum memory on pdp11's? Wikipedia thinks so....

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

There were also spinning disk "drum" memories.  I used to have one (or most
of one at least).

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Odd IBM mass storage systems (was: Re: Re: IBM 360)

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 9:45 AM Christian Kennedy via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> While on the topic of odd IBM mass storage systems, does anyone recall
> an IBM system that used rotating carousels holding sheets of magnetic
> material?  The carousel would rotate to position the selected sheet into
> the read/write station, where it would be moved up and down relative to
> the multiple fixed heads, a weird linear riff on a fixed head disk.
>
> LBL had one of these systems, installed in the same room as one of the
> few examples of the IBM 1360 photo digital storage system. They kept a
> broom next to the later in order to sweep up the photo chips when the
> thing occasionally spewed them everywhere.
>

I don't know if you saw it but the video at this link that Len Shustek
posted shows a machine very similar to what you describe ==>
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102740069

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Other input devices.

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 6:55 PM ben via cctalk 
wrote:

> Did any one ever use a keyboard to magtape as input device?
>

I never got to use it but I used to own one.  A  Mohawk Data Sciences unit.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Seeking out Joe Rigdon / John Lawson

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Hi Tony.

Thank you for the note.

Is there any way to confirm this?  Many people have been seeking out Joe
and when I tell them I'm told he was spotted alive last year there are
going to be many questions, and many people wanting to attempt to reach
him.  More than a few people are very concerned about him as they enjoyed
varying relationships with him but none have heard from him for 5+ years.

Thank you.

Sellam

On Sun, Apr 7, 2024 at 8:42 PM Tony Duell via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 1:48 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
>  wrote:
>
> [Sent privately]
>
> >
> > Has anyone communicated with or know a way to communicate with Joe Rigdon
> > out of Florida?  Most here should know him as an old-school ClassicCmp
> > veteran.
>
> I have just heard that he attended the HP Handhelds conference last
> year so is alive and well and still, presumably, interested in such
> machines. But no way to contact him
>
> -tony
>

[cctalk] Re: Problem with Dell Vostro 1700

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

The point being that there are nigh endless forums for PC tech support but
there's only one ClassicCmp mailing list.

On Sun, Apr 7, 2024 at 12:43 PM Van Snyder via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>

[cctalk] Re: Problem with Dell Vostro 1700

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Um...

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 1:45 PM Van Snyder via cctalk 
wrote:

> I have a Dell Vostro.
>
> When I boot, the screen briefly flashes and then remains dark.
>
> I have another one on which the screen would stay lit for a minute or
> two, then go black. If I closed the lid and opened it, it would stay
> lit for a few more minutes, then go black again. I corrected that by
> replacing the backlight power supply.
>
> In this one, is the problem more likely a defective power supply for
> the backlight, or a defective backlight, or something else?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Van Snyder
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Looking for an HP 9000/778 workstation B160/180

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 7:18 PM Kevin Bowling via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> There is an ebay seller 'biff-howard-tanen' that has some C200s up
> right now.  All their items have "Make an Offer'' and they tend to be
> fairly reasonable as long as you account for the free shipping they
> offer.  I've had mostly good luck with buying from them, and they made
> right the couple oops.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>

I can also vouch for "Biff".  I've transacted with him before (traded an
IMSAI 8080 for an Alpha Syntauri system he had listed on eBay...I proposed
the trade and he was kind enough to go with it, so I know he will work with
you).  FWIW we are also "Facebook Friends" and he's known in the computer
collecting circles there.  A very great guy.  He runs an e-waste processing
facility in the midwest.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 2:25 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > It depends on the model.  Typically an Apple ][ of any model sells for
> > $100-$250, depending on accessories and configuration. Unless you have a
> > straight Apple ][ (and not Plus, as I'm assuming), what you describe
> sounds
> > like a $250-$300 ][+ system, and $400-$450 for the //e.  Give or take
> eBay
> > markup.
> >
>
> Well, The SoftCard and the Language Card (why did they call it that?)
> both go for $100 a piece.  The one is a IIe, not a \\e.  There are
> some on eBay now for more than $2000.  I wouldn't expect that but I
> do find it interesting that all the stuff I have is worthless unless
> someone else is selling it.  :-)
>

That's not how it works but it sounds like you got it figured out.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 10:20 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Not really sure I want to get rid of them yet, but what do Apple II's
> go for nowadays?  I have an Apple II with 2 Disk II's and a language
> card.  I also have an Apple IIe with three external disk cards and
> 2 3.5" drives and 3 5.25" drives.  It also has a Microsoft Soft Card
> for running CP/M.  And I have the docs and disks.
>
> bill
>

It depends on the model.  Typically an Apple ][ of any model sells for
$100-$250, depending on accessories and configuration. Unless you have a
straight Apple ][ (and not Plus, as I'm assuming), what you describe sounds
like a $250-$300 ][+ system, and $400-$450 for the //e.  Give or take eBay
markup.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Seeking out Joe Rigdon / John Lawson

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 12:39 PM Zane Healy  wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2024, at 5:48 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone communicated with or know a way to communicate with Joe Rigdon
> > out of Florida?  Most here should know him as an old-school ClassicCmp
> > veteran.
> >
> > If anyone has any information at all on the whereabouts of Joe Rigdon,
> and
> > for that matter John Lawson, please either reply here or to me privately
> as
> > appropriate.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Sellam
>
>
> According to the archives I have on my computer, John Lawson announced
> here on June 15th, 2005 that he was leaving the hobby.
>
> It looks like Joe was last on the list in November 2006, at that time he
> was still using the rr.com email address.
>
> Sadly I don’t know how to reach either of them.  Eric Smith apparently had
> Joe’s phone number in 2011, I don’t know if he spoke to him at that time.
>
> Zane
>

The mystery deepens.

I was in touch with John Lawson up until around 2013-2014 when he stopped
responding to my calls/texts/emails (which could have been for several
reasons).

I only thought of Joe recently out of the blue and thought I'd see if he
was still around.  Jay West (in the ClassicCmp Discord server) said he was
friends with Joe and hosted his website and used to communicate with him
regularly but then stopped hearing from him at some point, and as of 5
years ago he and others made a concerted effort to locate him to no avail.

So this is a last ditch effort on my own part to find them before I figure
it's time for eulogies.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Seeking out Joe Rigdon / John Lawson

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Hi Chris.

It's been quite a while.

Those are the numbers I have for John last as well.  He stopped responding
to me over 10 years ago but I'm not sure if that was because he was tired
of me or just tired (I was going through a phase myself and pissed off some
friends inadvertently).  But around that time for a couple years I would
periodically reach out via text and maybe a phone call but he never
responded.  So I'm not sure if he passed or not because he wasn't in the
greatest health but he lost a bunch of weight the last time I saw him and
was looking pretty good.  But that was 10 years ago and he wasn't that
young then.  However, I find no obituaries, but then there's no guarantee
he didn't move somewhere else in the meantime.

Anyway, I hope you've been well.

Sellam

On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 9:49 PM Christian Kennedy via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 4/3/24 17:48, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > If anyone has any information at all on the whereabouts of Joe Rigdon,
> and
> > for that matter John Lawson, please either reply here or to me privately
> as
> > appropriate.
>
> Last contact info I have for John is:
>
> 738 Monico Dr.
> Dayton, NV 89403
> 775 230 8242
> 775 241 0546
> j...@nnevllc.com
>
> Note that the domain appears to be semi-parked, so I don't know if the
> address is still good.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
> ch...@mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB0692 | PG00029419
> http://www.mainecoon.comPGP KeyID 108DAB97
> PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
> "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
>
>

[cctalk] Seeking out Joe Rigdon / John Lawson

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Has anyone communicated with or know a way to communicate with Joe Rigdon
out of Florida?  Most here should know him as an old-school ClassicCmp
veteran.

If anyone has any information at all on the whereabouts of Joe Rigdon, and
for that matter John Lawson, please either reply here or to me privately as
appropriate.

Thank you.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: stack of Tab books for sale

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024, 4:07 PM Just Kant via cctalk 
wrote:

> Electronics, robotics, lasers. 10 in all. Overall comdition 6 or so out of
> 10. 50$ + shipping. NJ.


You really should post the titles. It's only ten.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: WTB: Cromemco System Zero

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:48 PM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> All,
>
> I'm looking for a Cromemco System Zero, doesn't matter if it's empty or
> not. Please contact me off-list if you have one to sell/trade or know of
> one!
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>

I had no idea they made a System Zero. I have a System One FWIW.

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: Allied Telesyn stuff was Re: Cleanup time again

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:29 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> >> Here's something operators of older systems might find useful.
> >>
> >> Allied Telesis CentreCOM 210TS Twisted Pair Transciever
> >> IEE 802.3 10 BASE-T (MAU)
> >>
> >> I have 14 used and another 14 still in the box, never been opened.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Wow!!!   Maybe I should try eBay again.  I was going to let
> > them go for $20-$25 but I according to google they are listing
> > for $180 to $250.  :-)
>
> Hmm. I have a drawer full of these and I think they furiously multiply in
> the
> dark like little metal network gerbils.
>

You're not supposed to feed them after midnight.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:52 PM Ali via cctalk 
wrote:

> > Why are you paying for postage as an eBay seller? Buyer paying postage
> > is the standard.
> >
>
> I think Bill is just being a decent guy and saying that it would cost more
> to ship it out then the item would cost/be bought for (i.e. $20 for item,
> $50 to ship) and how that wouldn't be nice or make sense for the buyer.
>
> But that is just a guess.
>
> -Ali
>

No, from what I saw, the average price was sub-$20 including shipping.
It's easy enough to ship though: a quick wrap in some bubble wrap and throw
it in a USPS standard sized Priority Mail box and out it goes.  A quick
$5-$10 for a few minutes of your time (if you're experienced at it).

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:33 PM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> --does anybody want to comment on whether ebay prices are less, similar,
> or greater than at live VCFs?  I have not made the effort to collect
> history.
>

It depends, usually less.  Sometimes the same or more.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:58 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Are Wacom CTE-430 tablets worth anything?
>
> bill
>

Bill,

eBay is good for gauging interest and pricing out stuff like this.  Recent
sales there show there is at least general interest, and they seem to sell
for sub-$20 each.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: DEC Processor Books

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 5:09 PM Wayne S via cctalk 
wrote:

> Fyi, if you have small hands you can get work as a hand model. E.G.
> Holding a bottle of liquor makes it look big.
>

I think that also works in porn.

I played Steve Wozniak's hands in the A Biography of the same (circa
2002-2003?)

Sellam

[cctalk] Seeking Z180 Assembly Programmer

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

When I was at the VCF SoCal last weekend I met a gentleman who was looking
for someone with Zilog Z180 assembly language experience.  He says he needs
someone to rewrite code in what sounds like some kind of terminal server
product he sells(?) to convert the protocol it uses from Televideo format
to ANSI (because Televideo is getting harder to support).  This gentleman
said he has a modest budget for the project.

Let me know if you might be particularly qualified and interested and I'll
put you in touch with him and you can go from there.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sat, Feb 24, 2024, 9:41 AM Rick Bensene via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> Another trick was for drives whose read/write amplifiers (which were
> typically situated within the sealed chamber, thus not replaceable except
> in a clean-room facility) had become flakey, and the drive would start
> getting lots of I/O errors.
>
> I would take the drive and put it inside a large ziplock bag, along with a
> bag of desiccant(this part is really important to suck up moisture in the
> air in the bag), and a small battery-powered digital thermometer.  I'd put
> it in the freezer until the drive had reached roughly 42F, and then take it
> out, and immediately hook it up to an archival system and power it up while
> it was still cold.
>
> This would allow me to get the data off without I/O errors as long as I
> could get what I needed before the drive warmed up enough that the weakness
> in the amplifiers again became a problem.   I found out about this trick
> somewhere on USENET many moons ago.   It worked for me a number of times.
>

This jogged some brain cells. I vaguely recall placing a container full of
ice on top of a drive to keep it cool enough during operation for its
bearings to not start screaming before I was able to copy all the data of
of it.

Sellam

>

[cctalk] Re: RD54 Maxtor XT-2190 w/one long meep

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

"...blearrt-meelrp..."

Best audio-to-text descriptive ever.

Sellam

On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:47 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi!  Remember the blearrt-meelrp sounding seek oscillation noise
> that the RD54 makes when you turn it on -- after it spins up, unlatches and
> loads the heads?
>
> Well, I took a chance on an el-(c)heapo ePay special RD54 that does all
> these things perfectly up until the seek oscillation thing and then only
> makes one steady m- sound that seems to last indefinitely (or at least
> until I get tired of listening to it after a few minutes).
>
> Would anyone here know enough about these disks to venture a guess at where
> to begin troubleshooting this?
>
>
> thx
> jake
>
> P.S.  If I'm being too vague, let me restate: I can hear it spin up,
> bearings sound normal, hear it unlock its head lock latch, then a perfectly
> *slight* noise of head actuation and the normal accompanying barely audible
> riding-on-air head noise.  Then I expect to hear the two seek tones, but
> only get one steady seek tone that lasts (I assume) forever.
>

[cctalk] Re: NOT AT ALL ABOUT VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

This thread needs to die gracefully. Stop responding to it. This has
nothing to do with VCF SoCal. At least change the subject of you're going
to respond.

Please stop hijacking threads with misleading subject headings. Have some
respect for the list.

Don't even respond to this. Just delete.

Sellam


On Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 3:06 AM Tony Duell via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 9:39 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk
>  wrote:
> >
> > Liam, TriPOS ?
> >
> > If i'm not wrong it was a OS developed in Cambridge (Cambridgeshire).
>
> It was. The name came from the fact that a course at Cambridge
> University is called a Tripos. Originally written by Martin Richards
> (as in BCPL)
>
> >
> > Did someone port it to other arch than ARM ?
>
> The oldest version I know of ran on PDP11s. I am pretty sure there was
> a 68000 version at one point too.
>
> -tony
>

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Hi Micki.

I'm passing along this message from Ali. Can you please help him?

I checked the website and verified that there is no obvious way to contact
anyone in the organization for regular communication. Forgive me if I
overlooked something.

Thank you.

Sellam


On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:25 PM Ali via cctalk  wrote:

> > > One last question:
> > >
> > > Do kids get in free? If so what is the age cutoff? It looks like
> > > tickets are needed for everyone but figure I would check just in
> > case.
> > >
> >
> > Never mind... Important to read all the WAY to the END. LOL. Kids 12
> > and under are free!
>
>
> Anybody successfully buy tickets? I tried and I get an error that check
> out isn't working and to contact them. Of course like all good sites they
> provide absolutely no way to contact them. If anyone has contact info that
> would be great or if anyone knows that tickets can be purchased at the
> door? Otherwise hard pass here. No way I am driving to the OC, in possible
> SoCal rain traffic, without something a bit more solid
>
> -Ali
>
>

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 8:56 AM Ali via cctalk  wrote:

>
> I have looked at the website for the event and I am still not sure if
> there will be consignment/sales area. Can anyone verify if there is going
> to be one or not? Thanks!
>
> -Ali
>

This VCF SoCal announcement just came into my mailbox this morning so I'm
passing it along.


It's the final countdown!

We are putting on the final touches and getting ready to kick off the
inaugural show.

EXHIBITORS & VENDORS

The exhibit hall is full with 48 different Exhibitors & Vendors! Check
the Exhibitors
& Vendors

page to see the full list and Exhibit Hall Map.



SPEAKERS

We are delighted to announce that Joe Decuir, legendary Atari engineer, has
joined as a presenter, speaking with Thomas Cherryhomes on Atari OS and the
foundation of FujiNet. All presentations are listed on the website
.
Check the list and mark your schedule!



CONSIGNMENT

Consignment details are up for shopping & selling! Sellers can pre-list
their items for sale using the Consignment Form

.

Consignment shopping hours are:

   -

   Saturday 10am-6pm
   -

   Sunday 10am-5pm



MEET-UPS

We've added Meet-Ups

to the agenda! Meet with fellow enthusiasts in the Grand Foyer (opposite
the Registration Table) at one of our Meet-Ups - a mini-festival inside
Vintage Computer Festival SoCal. These are informal gatherings where you
can meet folks with a common interest or background, share stories and
exchange info.



VCF SOCAL SWAG

The official, inaugural VCF SoCal T-shirts arrived and they are RAD! Shirts
will be on sale during the show, along with VCF SoCal logo Ball Caps,
Stickers and fun 2-in-1 Screwdrivers that fit nicely into your trusty
pocket protector.



FREE TABLE

Been holding onto some old retro tech because "someone can use this!"?
That's what the Free Table in the Grand Foyer is for. Bring some goodies
along to leave on the Free Table. Check the table for that elusive
component you've been searching for. PRO TIP: Check the Free Table
throughout the show as it's always changing!



TICKETS

Thank You to those who have bought tickets already. If you haven't gotten
tickets, now's the time! We have a variety of ticket options

for sale. The Vintage Fan Weekend Bundle is a fan favorite and Will Not be
available once the show starts. It includes a Weekend Pass, the 2024 VCF
SoCal T-shirt, an Exclusive Vintage Fan Badge and a cool VCF SoCal sticker.



See you this weekend!



Micki & Steve Diederich



VCF SoCal

vcfsocal.com

#vcfsocal



>

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 10:26 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 19:05, Sellam Abraham via cctalk
>  wrote:
>
> > Probably because Americans in Futtbuck, Idaho never heard of any British
> > computers but Brits certainly knew about American computers, eh wot?
>
> Oh, yes, naturally!
>
> It is something of a national characteristic, though.
>
> I had someone very seriously questioning me, over on Fesse Bouc, if I
> was serious when I said that the ZX Spectrum could remotely be
> considered a more significant machine than (one model of) TRS-80, and
> he was incredulous when I absolutely maintained the point.
>
> Only after the fall of Communism did we Sinclair fans discover that
> there was an entire international market in clones and compatibles of
> the little Spectrum.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_clones
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
> Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
>

I agree, based on the very point you are making: the impact, influence and
reach of the ZX Spectrum was by far greater than that of the TRS-80.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 9:13 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 14:23, Christopher Satterfield via cctalk
>  wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to be presenting a (fine? idk) collection of British Computers.
> > Dragging along at least an Acorn RiscPC 700, a Castle Iyonix, Sinclair
> > Spectrum 48k and a Q68. Possibly static Apricot FP1/F1 if I can be
> bothered
> > to reassemble them despite their non-functional states.
>
> As a Brit, can I just express my appreciation of this? :-)
>
> I write for an international audience and sometimes people from the
> USA are openly and repeatedly incredulous that "obscure" British
> computers -- that means they've never heard of them -- can be
> considered significant or important, even compared to American
> machines that were on sale in East Futtbuck Idaho for 6 weeks in
> Spring 1973 and have never been mentioned since.
>
> The biggest selling CPU in history is a British design from a British
> company. Its native OS is still updated and is FOSS today, and
> provided the inspiration for a key part of the Windows 95 user
> interface now used by billions. The core of the OS dates from the late
> 1970s or so and may be the oldest OS of which a modern derivative
> still can run on the bare metal of new hardware in 2024.
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven


Probably because Americans in Futtbuck, Idaho never heard of any British
computers but Brits certainly knew about American computers, eh wot?

P.S. Just so this doesn't cause an international incident, I am very fond
of various British computers and right now I'm on a BBC Micro kick,
specifically because of its BASIC interpreter.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot.

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 9:55 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> There are several YT videos as you mentioned.  Definitive is in the eye of
> the beholder, I think.  In hindsight, I would remind people to keep their
> cool and carefully think through the safety procedures related to CRTs
> before starting any work.  I totally forgot to discharge my CRT but I got
> away with it (I guess because it had not been powered on for four months).
> An interesting side note is that the anode cap on the leaking CRT had gone
> rock hard and there was a small "streak" on the back of the CRT that looked
> like the plastic that it was made of had released some sort of oil.  Maybe
> it was attacked by something outgassing from the goo that the CRT was
> dripping.  Anyway, like Wile E Coyote, after I had shoved a screwdriver
> under the uncooperative anode cap and finally gotten it off, I suddenly
> thought "What the HE** did I just do???".
>
> Bill S.
>

I think you were fine.  That's how you discharge them anyway.  You were
just missing the grounding wire :)

Sellam

-Original Message-
> From: Bill Degnan via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 12:16 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Cc: Bill Degnan 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: ADM3a screen rot.
>
> Is there a definitive guide for repairing screen rot.  One of mine needs
> it.  I have watched others but I have not attempted my own.  I might try
> this at the Kennett Classic workshop this upcoming Feb 17th Bill
>
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 11:41 AM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > A quick note on ADM3a screen rot... my vintage collection resides in a
> > cool
> > (60-72 degrees F) dry basement.  My "pride and joy" ADM3a (I have
> > several) was just starting to show a few bubbles at the corners last
> > September.  I was pulling out some parts units on Friday and noticed
> > that one had a much better screen than I remembered.  Thinking that I
> > might swap screens, I took a close look at "PnJ" and discovered to my
> > horror that most of the lower half of the screen had "melted".  "PnJ"
> > was on a shelf, below eye level, nowhere near a vent or other source
> > of heat.  I was so annoyed that I immediately started cleaning/repair
> > without taking any pictures (sorry).
> > Fortunately, there does not appear to be any corrosion from the "goo".
> > I completely desoldered and removed the keyboard assembly to get all
> > of the crud out of (and out from under) it.  The mainboard is a fully
> > socketed example and the crud is down in several of the sockets.  I'm
> > still working on that.  Anyway, the take away is don't assume (like I
> > did) that the ruined ADM3as you see are the result of temperature
> > extremes.  It can happen anywhere.  Keep a close eye on yours if you
> > have one.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill S.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > www.avast.com
> >
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
>

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Wow, bummer.

I'm staying with my sister in Upland so I'll be fine budget wise.

Thanks.

Sellam

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 6:47 PM jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> 1000 feet from where I lived in Anaheim.  needed this a few years ago, I
> would have helped any way I could.  Have fun.
>
> If you find the prices at the former Doubletree a bit much, there are
> probably lots of cheap deals near Mouse Central, just 1 1/2 miles
> north.  I recommend it if you haven't been, even though it's horribly
> expensive.  One downside, the Haunted Mansion is closed for a rebuild.
>
> Thanks
> Jim
>
> On 1/25/24 13:44, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> > I'll be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in
> the
> > capacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation).
> >
> > Is anyone else planning to attend the event?
> >
> > Sellam
>
>

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

???

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:30 PM Andrew Diller via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hope this helps, I put it together to keep track of them all.
>
> -andy
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2024, at 2:47 PM, Ali via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali
> > ---- Original message From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 1/25/24  11:45 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: "General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Cc:
> Sellam Abraham  Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal I'll
> be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in
> thecapacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation).Is anyone
> else planning to attend the event?Sellam
>
>

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:37 PM Michael Mulhern via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> As a denizen of the antipodes I’ve heard about VCFSoCal, but maybe I’m more
> into the socials.
>
> Maybe VCF(etal) should be also sending notifications through email lists
> and boards.
>

I agree, they should.


> Hoping anyone local(ish) to VCFSoCal can get there and have a great time.
>
> M.
>

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Forgive me, I should not have assumed everyone already knew about it.

February 17-18 at the Hotel Fera Event Center in Orange, California.

https://www.vcfsocal.com/

Sellam

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:47 AM Ali via cctalk 
wrote:

> First time I am hearing of this. Are details up on the vcf site?-Ali
>  Original message From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 1/25/24  11:45 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: "General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Cc:
> Sellam Abraham  Subject: [cctalk] VCF SoCal I'll
> be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in
> thecapacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation).Is anyone
> else planning to attend the event?Sellam

[cctalk] VCF SoCal

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

I'll be attending VCF SoCal on February 17-18 in Orange (California) in the
capacity of a presenter (on a panel and a solo presentation).

Is anyone else planning to attend the event?

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: The MAC at 40

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 2:04 PM Andrew Diller via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I think now anyone that wants to look a bit more closely has a much better
> idea and context about what caused the Birth of the Mac. That story of
> "stolen from PARC" IMHO is just weak writing back when the Internet didn't
> have the info it has today which gives full context over what was going on.
> And many people have told a much more rich and (I hope) accurate telling of
> the story.
>
> The Mac sure made an impact on me and I've never looked back or wanted to
> use any other computing system (for my real computer) since then.
>
> -andy
>

I read a narrative more recently that more accurately depicted the actual
events.  I wish I could remember any details about it, otherwise I would
link it up so others could read it.

But basically, Jobs never stole anything.  He was pretty much invited to
take a look, and then entered into some sort of exclusivity deal (I may be
wrong about this detail) to use Xerox tech.  Xerox upper execs didn't see a
market in this kind of hardware; copiers were their game, so they didn't
get what they had, and didn't care.  If anything, Apple should be thanked
for taking what would have been deadend technology at Xerox and making a
product with it.  Basically.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Pascal has strings.

Sellam

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19 PM Warner Losh via cctalk 
wrote:

> My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC
> Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science
> fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my
> own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to
> compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better
> than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but
> that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of
> Turbo Pascal.
>
> Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the
> language.
>
> Warner
>

[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Nice obituary.

I'll have to admit I learned a lot about the man reading it.

Sellam

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 1:32 PM Liam Proven via cctalk 
wrote:

> Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and
> an OS was 89
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/
>
> The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary.
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
> Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
>

[cctalk] Re: Intel 4004

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

As the one who helped Ray introduce the F14A CADC microprocessor to the
public back in 1998, I'm intimately familiar with the story of its creation
as well as its capabilities.

Ray officially announced the CADC at VCF 2.0 in 1998.  He was the keynote
speaker.  He brought along prototypes of the chips that he kept from his
time working at Garrett Air Research.  Ray first attempted to publish the
design in Computer Design magazine in 1971 but the military stepped in and
classified the project and prohibited him from disclosing anything.  As a
result the article was pulled.  In the mid-1990s he began an effort to have
the design de-classified so that he could finally talk about it, something
he'd been wanting to do since the early 1970s when they completed the
project successfully, under budget and with time to spare.  With the help
of his local assemblywoman, Zoe Lofgren (Santa Clara) he was able to get
the project de-classified (probably because the F14A is no longer produced,
and the CADC was only used in the F14A, so maybe Iran still has an interest
in CADC technology).

Ray actually approached me, contacting me by phone, I think.  He found me
by way of the Vintage Computer Festival and asked if I would be interested
in helping to bring disclosure to the CADC.  I wasn't sure what to make of
him at first as I already had some experience with hucksters promoting
themselves as having done the first this or that, but upon meeting Ray for
lunch he brought the goods (the prototype chips) and had the story and the
facts to back up what he said.  So we made an agreement to debut the CADC
officially at VCF 2.0.

Before we shopped the story around to the press, I decided that we should
first meet with Ted Hoff to show him the CADC design and let him know we
were going to make this public announcement that it beat out the 4004 by a
couple years (and by quite a bit in terms of capability).  The reasoning
being I didn't want him to feel slighted or to create animosity if we were
going to upend the history of microprocessors/microcomputing, which I felt
this story would do.  I was able to arrange a meeting with Hoff at his
office in Menlo Park or something (it's been many long and sometimes hard
years since 1998 so forgive me if I forget some minor details).  Ted was
cordial and then got right down to business, asking Ray a bunch of
questions about the design of the CADC.  And it came down to this: the CADC
was designed to be a multi-processing system.  While it was polling the
pilot's joystick (first fly-by-wire aircraft I believe), it was also
computing air speed/pressure, and using that to control the sweep (sorry
that I don't know the proper technical term) of the wings, while also
monitoring the weapons systems, etc.  It was processing something like 8
different tasks simultaneously, in a round-robin fashion.  Each sub-process
was contained on its own ROM chip.  The CADC central processor would
execute so many cycles of code on each ROM and then move onto the next.
The CADC had no program counter: since it was designed from its inception
to be a multi-processing (multi-threading?) system, it made sense to build
a program counter onto each ROM.  Therefore, when the CADC switched back to
that ROM to continue executing instructions, the program counter on that
ROM told the CADC where it was supposed to fetch the next instruction.
Once it became clear to Ted that the CADC did not have an integrated
program counter (though it easily could have) he pooh-poohed the entire
thing as not qualifying as a single-chip microprocessor and we spent the
rest of our time with him discussing other topics until it was time to wrap
up.  Ray and I both came out of the meeting somewhat bewildered at his
reaction and response, but in hindsight it was obvious that a gigantic part
of Ted Hoff's legacy is as "inventor of the 'first' microprocessor" and so
it made sense that he would be quick to protect that legacy rather than so
easily give it up to this nobody from out of nowhere with this fantastical
claim of a microprocessor before the 4004 that made the 4004 look like the
silly little calculator chip that it was.  I guess we were expecting him to
be more interested in the historical significance of Ray's disclosure and
welcome it but that was obviously naive.

Once that was out of the way, I began shopping the story around to the
press.  I first approached the San Jose Mercury News tech editor (Dan
whats-his-name), which would have been a natural fit all around, but he
just could not be bothered to return my messages.  I also pitched it to
Katie Hafner and/or (can't remember for sure) John Markoff at the New York
Times, and to Dan Kawasaki at the Wall Street Journal.  It was Dan Kawasaki
who actually got back to me and expressed a definite interest in the CADC
and Ray's story.  After an initial conversation with me and Ray, Dan asked
for an exclusive on the story and we granted it to him.  We had also (I
guess tentatively) agreed it 

[cctalk] Re: What happened to the PDP-8 on ebay?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:18 PM jim stephens via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> On 10/3/23 21:23, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> > There was a PDP-8 (rack straight 8 with asr33) that was on ebay that
> > disappeared..anyone know if it was sold?  I can't find it, maybe the
> seller
> > pulled the auction to sell privately.
> > Bill
> I trolled thru VCF forum and I think this is the one you recall. It's
> the last straight 8 I saw listed.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314563635
>
> I also off your topic have observed a German listing and British listing
> for Olivetti Programma 101s for 40,000 pounds and 60,000 euro, in the
> same fantasy range as this listing which is for $18,000.
>
> This listing shows currently terminated September 20 due to an error in
> the listing.  No relist by this vendor.  He also did something on Sept 2
> with is.
>
> Thanks
> jim
>

Realistically, $18,000 is not a bad price at all for a complete PDP-8. The
only downside is the broken off corner of the front panel glass.

Sellam

[cctalk] Documentary on the SKALA computer of Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

This is a pretty interesting documentary describing the computer (SKALA)
that ran the Chernobyl nuclear complex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbaptQh2AM4

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Systems for sale

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 8:12 AM Stephen Pereira via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Sorry Sellam, none of the websites I mentioned for information are mine.
>
> smp
> - - -
> Stephen Pereira
>

No worries, but the way you wrote your message seems to imply that those
are your websites, and that the machines you're selling are depicted
therein.

You might want to clarify this.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Vintage Computer Systems for sale

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Stephen,

You have a terrific website.  It's very well presented and a nice resource
for homebrew computing circa the mid-1970s.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Any leads on Fairlight sampler that needs repair?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

They are a fairly high demand item when they come up for sale, and are very
expensive.

Sellam

On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, 9:02 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anyone have any leads in USA on a Fairlight CMI or similar that needs
> repair? S-100 based sampler from the 80s. Would be fun to restore one.
>
> - Ethan
>

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Apparently, the Museum of Flight in Seattle, Washington has one on display:

https://www.museumofflight.org/exhibits-and-events/aircraft/concorde

Perhaps if you bring a screwdriver with you they might let you peek behind
some panels? :D

Sellam

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:37 AM Wayne S via cctalk 
wrote:

> You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want…
>
> WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers
>
> e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford
>
> Martin
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Cc: Shoppa, Tim 
> Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology?
>
> Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:
>
> Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's
> in-cabin display?
>
> Examples:
>
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg
>
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg
>
>
> The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach
> and Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and
> others show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT
> colors, yet the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors
> were also popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident
> "flatness" but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits
> like this with no visible segmentation?
>
> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a
> popular control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I
> can't rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any
> event there doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between
> digits that I might expect with either of those technologies.
>
> The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at
> the left and right edges which might be a clue?
>
> Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and
> 7-segment green LED display. Don't need help with that one .
>
> Tim N3QE
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] OT: Anyone near Glasnevin (Dublin), Ireland (to pick-up an item)?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

I'm looking for someone near Glasnevin near Dublin, Ireland who would be
willing to pick up an item for me and ship it to me State-side.  Seller
will not ship.

Thank you in advance.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Comparing PDP-8 processor flipchip

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 8:31 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The biggest worry I have regarding the ebay auction are the three missing
> core memory case screws.  Implies a non-DEC repair/inspection attempted.
>
> Bill
>

Did you ask the seller about it?

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:12 PM Will Cooke via cctalk 
wrote:

> I make an official motion that Fred write his own "Everything I Know About
> Floppy Disks" page / book /encyclopedia.
>
> I suspect that what is inside his head is the greatest collection of
> knowledge about floppies on the planet.
>
> Fred, you will be paid with great admiration and appreciation.  Sorry, all
> I can offer. :-)
>
> Anyone with me?
>
> Will
>
>
> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and
> don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the
> endless immensity of the sea.
>

We must teach Fred to long for the endless immensity of the written word
(in book form, focusing specifically on floppy disk drives).

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 2:24 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 9/10/23 13:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> >> Can't say, but probably.  I've got an 8" disk here written by an Apple
> >> II.  Encoding is weird--basically the Apple RWTS encoded as 8 bit FM
> >> (3740) bytes. Haven't bothered to see from whence it came.
> >
> > Sorrento Valley Associates sold an FDC for Apple2.  At Comdex, they had
> > it wired to an 8" drive.  So, perhaps they supported an FM version of
> > the Apple2 GCR format?
>
> Have no idea, but was surprise to see RWTS encodings in standard FM.
>
> --Chuck
>

No, that controller (I'm suspecting) allowed native Apple ][ access to IBM
3740 format disks.

Sellam

[cctalk] Re: For Fred, especially: "Everything I know about floppy disks"

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 4:02 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> I always wanted the Sorrento Valley FDC for Apple2
>

I've seen one in the wild before, but the guy didn't want to sell it with
the pile of Lisas I bought from him.  It's possible I have documentation
for it.

Does "more popular" mean sold more units, or does it mean better liked by
> its owners? :-)
>

I'm positive the Disk ][ was better liked by its owners than that glorified
tape drive called the 1541.


> I never had a Commodore 64!  but, I had an MSD drive for Commodore 64 that
> interfaced with it with IEC? and IEEE488.
>

I sold one of those within the past couple years.


> To be fully complete with the level of esoterics that he does mention
> would require a LOT more content.  Whereas a good proofread, and rewrite
> of some sections could make it a good reference for many parts.


I think it's something the author wrote in one fell swoop, i.e. "everything
I know about floppy disks".

Sellam