[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
List, I finally got around to cutting some Linux code to handle the RX50 BRU sets. Since the disks date from 1986, I prefer to work with images. Basically, you extract BACKUP.SYS files from the each of the set of disks. For sake of simplicity, rename the BACKUP.SYS files 1 2 3 4... The run brudump dest-dir 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.. Brudump checks the backup sequence and creates the files from the backup and stashes them in dest-dir. Linux x86_64 Debian 5-10-179 was used, but should run well on most recent distros. If you need this, let me know. Cheers, Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: Don't know the 8600. Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected to a PDP-11 that functioned as a console? Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a 10M disk, did it? The 730 does not have a PDP-11 as frontend. It uses the RB730 integrated disk controller with attachments for the RL02 and R80 drives. The R80 provides 120MB of storage, enough for a small VMS installation. And as it's a Unibus machine, you can add more peripherals. Christian
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Don't know the 8600. Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected to a PDP-11 that functioned as a console? Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a 10M disk, did it? Nope, there was a big "multifunction" card that ran the RM80 and RL02 drive. I think it bypassed the Unibus for data which is what allowed the R80 to run on such a weird little system. I don't know if it could handle more than one RL02, but the R80 used a personality module that was basically SMD with the stupid DEC twist and was the same module that worked on the RM80 (which I still have here, should dig it out and fire it up. Worked a decade ago...) > But the question would have been why? :-) >Maybe, but can you see a small office running an 11/730 just to get those particular Sure, the 11/730 was marketed as an office system, in a cool little cabinet with the R80 on the bottom, CPU, and a little top loading RL02. Perfect for the 1980's office. Well until Microvax. CZ
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/27/2023 8:44 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02 disks. I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. Sure. The 8600 and 11/730 used an RL02 as the boot/startup media. Don't know the 8600. Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected to a PDP-11 that functioned as a console? Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a 10M disk, did it? RX02 is a bit odd, but I could see that being supported on a Unibus adapter which existed for the big systems and the BI systems. But the question would have been why? :-) Maybe the 11/730 was the entry level All in One, at least before Microvax became popular Maybe, but can you see a small office running an 11/730 just to get those particular apps? :-) bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 10:28 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 6/27/23 20:58, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS > >> supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console > >> computer so you could mount it just like any other device. > >> > > I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? > > Yup, I think you are right! memory fades over 40 years! > Yes, it's an RX01. (I just booted one of mine last month). Pat
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/27/23 20:58, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console computer so you could mount it just like any other device. I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? Yup, I think you are right! memory fades over 40 years! Jon
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02 disks. I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. Sure. The 8600 and 11/730 used an RL02 as the boot/startup media. RX02 is a bit odd, but I could see that being supported on a Unibus adapter which existed for the big systems and the BI systems. Maybe the 11/730 was the entry level All in One, at least before Microvax became popular CZ
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console computer so you could mount it just like any other device. I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? CZ Jon
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
asOn Tue, 27 Jun 2023 at 20:11, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. > > One of my father's fondest memories as a sysadmin for the radio astronomy folks at Bell Labs was replacing the VAX, I believe an 11/750, with Sun equipment. They had RL02 packs on that machine. -Henry
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/27/23 19:11, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02 disks. I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console computer so you could mount it just like any other device. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
> On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:26 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk > wrote: > > On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> > Different thing, I believe. >> >> Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two departments >> working on the same concept and coming up with completely different, but >> equally oddball solution > > Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't unusual > in DEC, at least for a portion of its history. It was a long running operating principle of Ken Olsen, and one of the worst management notions in the history of the world. He didn't just do it with individual projects, though that's bad enough -- he had whole product family organizations competing. A notorious example I know well was the network products group (building routers and bridges and terminal servers, out of Littleton) competing with the Loe End network products group (building smaller routers and bridges and terminal servers, out of Maynard. Once in a while there was some connection between the two, as in the DEChub family which came out of LENAC (90 series) but evolved to include products from NAC as well (900 series, like the DECbridge 900 FDD/Ethernet bridge I worked on. But the misguided notion that DEC had enough money to burn that it could build two product lines and cancel one of them, or have each take a fraction of the available market, surely is part of why DEC failed as a business in the long run. paul
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/27/2023 7:26 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Different thing, I believe. Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely different, but equally oddball solution Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't unusual in DEC, at least for a portion of its history. Reading about the two different versions was interesting. The PDP-11 version comes complete with a version of Micro-RSX making it basically a turnkey system. More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02 disks. I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks. bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Different thing, I believe. Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely different, but equally oddball solution Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't unusual in DEC, at least for a portion of its history. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
> Different thing, I believe.
Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two
departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely
different, but equally oddball solutions.
There's A-to-Z, which aimed to be something similar but small enough to run on a PDP-11.
("A2Z" is not its official name but it isn't surprising to see that appear as
an internal marker in files.) I though there was a RSTS version of it, I may be
mistaken. Given that it ran on RSX it would not have been a large stretch to build it on
RSTS under its RSX runtime system.
Yeah, I sort of remember this in the 80's. It was an attempt to break
into the office automation world where companies like Wang and that
weird word processing system were attempting to stave off PC's and
Netware/286. Didn't work well
P/OS is none of these things and the stuff I described above is much newer
(early 1980s if I remember right -- certainly well after I started at DEC which
was 1978).
The more I look at POS the more I realize it really could have been
good. With TMS at the front desk plus a shared 2400 baud modem plus
thinwire Ethernet, a small boot disk, one system with an RD53, and a
couple of LA50's and you would have a darn impressive office system. Too
bad the usual happened.
But I am now curious to see if I can get the POS apps to run on M+. Why not.
paul
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
> On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:31 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> Sounds like P/OS for the Professional. I've heard of All-in-One, but didn't
> realize they built something that was as bad an annoying as P/OS. I wonder if
> it included Prose as a word processor.
Different thing, I believe.
Various projects get mixed up in my head, but here are some pieces as I
remember them. Corrections welcome because it's quite possible I slipped some
bits.
There's ALL-IN-ONE, a VMS based business software system. It included, I
think, word processing and an email system, fancier than MAIL11 and not at all
appreciated by engineers but inflicted on DEC non-engineering personnel.
There's A-to-Z, which aimed to be something similar but small enough to run on
a PDP-11. ("A2Z" is not its official name but it isn't surprising to see that
appear as an internal marker in files.) I though there was a RSTS version of
it, I may be mistaken. Given that it ran on RSX it would not have been a large
stretch to build it on RSTS under its RSX runtime system.
There was also at one time the "KO project", called that because it was
apparently started under Ken Olsen's personal direction. That was a software
project to build something similar. I don't think what it produced actually
became ALL-IN-ONE but maybe it was. Among other things, it involved the
creation of a new programming language called KOALA. That could run on both
VMS and PDP-11 systems, so the theory was that the KO project output could do
so as well. In practice that failed utterly because of the "virtual disease"
-- those applications ran fine on a VMS system with adequate memory, but on a
PDP-11 with 64 kB address space they would page like mad and performance was
totally unacceptable.
P/OS is none of these things and the stuff I described above is much newer
(early 1980s if I remember right -- certainly well after I started at DEC which
was 1978).
paul
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Sounds like P/OS for the Professional. I've heard of All-in-One, but didn't realize they built something that was as bad an annoying as P/OS. I wonder if it included Prose as a word processor. Speaking of which, I wonder if those apps would run on a regular pdp11/83 running RSX111M+. Maybe not the menu system, but the text/REGIS apps like the editor and Pro/DATARIEVE should probably run. Hm. I'm currently thinking of ways to try and get true M+ to run on the Pro. Console serial isn't an issue, there is a way to activate that on the printer port. The trick is the drivers, and if it's possible to have the POS drivers for the disk drive and floppy controller somehow load into a genned M+ system via VMR and/or CON. But it would be interesting to get POS apps running on a real pdp11. If they are user level it should not require a recompile. The real question is Synergy window manager: Did it access video memory directly or did it do the screen via REGIS drivers. I wonder because the video cards are different between the Pro/350 and 380 Chris On 6/27/2023 2:26 AM, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote: A-to-Z is listed in https://doc.lagout.org/science/0_Computer%20Science/0_Computer%20History/old-hardware/dec/pdp11/catalogs/PDP_Systems_and_Options_Catalog_1988_Jul-Dec.pdf at several pdf pages, e.g. 54 & 412. It says: A-to-Z Base System The A-to-Z Base System is a user-installable, multiuser base system that sup- ports up to ten concurrent users on MicroPDP-11 and sixteen or more concur- rent users on MicroVAX. The A-to-Z Base System includes menu-driven system management functions as well as the ability to install Micro/RSX and/or MicroVAX applications. Inherent in the system are the menu manager and flow-control processor, which insulate the end user from the system-level inter- face without isolating the developer or system manager from the functions avail- able at the operating system level. The A-to-Z Base System for MicroPDP-11 includes the Micro/RSX operating system software, whereas the other A-to-Z Base Systems require the purchase of MicroVMS as prerequisite software. SPD 18.16 The latest version I know of is A-to-Z V2.2A from 1988. Ulli Am Di., 27. Juni 2023 um 00:49 Uhr schrieb Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org>: On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to guess what application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. Does the "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have created those files? The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted of a number of packages and was a complete business operations system. bill On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z. bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
A-to-Z is listed in https://doc.lagout.org/science/0_Computer%20Science/0_Computer%20History/old-hardware/dec/pdp11/catalogs/PDP_Systems_and_Options_Catalog_1988_Jul-Dec.pdf at several pdf pages, e.g. 54 & 412. It says: A-to-Z Base System The A-to-Z Base System is a user-installable, multiuser base system that sup- ports up to ten concurrent users on MicroPDP-11 and sixteen or more concur- rent users on MicroVAX. The A-to-Z Base System includes menu-driven system management functions as well as the ability to install Micro/RSX and/or MicroVAX applications. Inherent in the system are the menu manager and flow-control processor, which insulate the end user from the system-level inter- face without isolating the developer or system manager from the functions avail- able at the operating system level. The A-to-Z Base System for MicroPDP-11 includes the Micro/RSX operating system software, whereas the other A-to-Z Base Systems require the purchase of MicroVMS as prerequisite software. SPD 18.16 The latest version I know of is A-to-Z V2.2A from 1988. Ulli Am Di., 27. Juni 2023 um 00:49 Uhr schrieb Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org>: > > On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >>> > I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to > guess what > > application created those files is likely to be a study in > frustration. > Does the > > "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that > might have > > created those files? > >>> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. > >>> > >>> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. > >> > >> Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It > consisted of a > >> number of packages and was a complete business operations system. > >> > >> > >> bill > > On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a > trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". > > > > The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various > > pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z. > > > bill > > > >
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to guess what application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. Does the "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have created those files? The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted of a number of packages and was a complete business operations system. bill On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z. bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/26/23 13:17, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote: > Some of the filenames (eg ATOZ013.MSL) suggest that the DEC product > A-TO-Z might be involved. This was an RSX based product for small offices. As I mentioned, it fits perfectly. In particular when I look at the backup file, I run into this: > b030 3b 00 30 31 30 31 44 55 30 3a 5b 41 54 4f 5a 4d |;.0101DU0:[ATOZM| > b040 4f 44 5d 41 32 55 4d 41 49 4e 2e 4d 4e 55 20 20 |OD]A2UMAIN.MNU | > b050 20 20 20 20 4d 45 4e 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 |MEN | > b060 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 ff ff | ...| | ...| I did find a brief overall description of A2Z/A-to-Z here: > https://www.1000bit.it/js/web/viewer.html?file=%2Fad%2Fbro%2Fdigital%2Fdec%2Dguide%2Da%2Dto%2Dz%2Epd --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Some of the filenames (eg ATOZ013.MSL) suggest that the DEC product A-TO-Z might be involved. This was an RSX based product for small offices. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.glea...@comcast.ne
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/26/23 04:16, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It > consisted of a > > number of packages and was a complete business operations system. That would fit perfectly, given the source of the disks, which were probably created by an executive assistant/secretary. The selection of files archived by BRU would also likely be dictated by the package. The contents of most of the files containing text seem to be consistent with a journal/notebook kept by such a person. At least this ties down the source, if not the use of the data. Welcome to my world. Now, on to a batch of Wang 2200 floppies whose content that not even Jim Battle appears to recognize. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >>> guess what >>> >>> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. >>> Does the >>> >>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have >>> >>> created those files? >> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >> >> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. > > > Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted > of a > number of packages and was a complete business operations system. > > > bill On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE". paul
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to guess what application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. Does the "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have created those files? The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted of a number of packages and was a complete business operations system. bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Sorry disregard. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 25, 2023, at 19:00, Wayne S wrote: > > I remember that th > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Jun 25, 2023, at 17:26, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >>> guess what >>> >>> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. >>> Does the >>> >>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have >>> >>> created those files? >> >> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. >> >> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. >> >> --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
I remember that th Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 25, 2023, at 17:26, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to >> guess what >> >> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. >> Does the >> >> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have >> >> created those files? > > The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. > > Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. > > --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to > guess what > > application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. > Does the > > "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have > > created those files? The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears. Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 12:34:04PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/25/23 12:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > > can: > > I know what's in the files, that's easy. What I don't know is what > created/used them. Recovering the content is fairly straightforward. Perhaps you could have some luck with file command: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_(command) and: mkdir /tmp/checks cp kart*.fs /tmp/checks/kart ## this is something in Forth cp kart*.awk /tmp/checks/kart2 ## and something in awk cp /usr/share/file/magic.mgc /tmp/checks/img ## file's own magic database finally: --- $ file /tmp/checks/* /tmp/checks/img: magic binary file for file(1) cmd (version 16) (little endian) /tmp/checks/kart: ASCII text /tmp/checks/kart2: awk or perl script, ASCII text So it sometimes works, might work for you, too. Perhaps there is some older magic database which could contain the relevant info (later scrapped as no longer needed). Perhaps there could be a magick database for classic interest. No more ideas (for now, at least). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/2023 3:44 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? See my previous response. :-) bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/2023 3:39 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to guess what application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration. Does the "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have created those files? bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 14:13, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > od -x is hex output of 16-bit words, od -d does 16-bit words as decimal, > and so on. I have a small bash script that looks like this: #! /bin/bash for x in $*; do hexdump -C $x | less; done --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 15:02, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: .dtx files IIRC were created by Tex and Latex which fit in with rsx11 and DEC software. So maybe that is it? I tried to compile TeX for RSX-11M on an 11/45, and it was an utter failure. Maybe somebody hacked TeX down to fit on an 11, but I never heard of it. We did get it running on VAX/VMS on a 11/780. The versions of TeX I have used produce .dvi files, which can then be converted to .ps or .pdf. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 14:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less On Linux, I use od to pick through files to figure out what format they are. Lots of archive and compressor programs put a few bytes at the beginning that identifies what utility was used. od -c filename | more give a page by page look at the ASCII character representation. od -x is hex output of 16-bit words, od -d does 16-bit words as decimal, and so on. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 12:39, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and > looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like > visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL > Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl > > Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is > it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? The volume label pretty much says it all--it's an office journal of phone calls, mail, conversations, etc. Basically standard commercial CYA notes. Was there a MicroRSX application sold for this task? My guess is that the customer will happy for a simple un-indexed linear list, so I'll go with that. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
.dtx files IIRC were created by Tex and Latex which fit in with rsx11 and DEC software. So maybe that is it? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:53, Wayne S wrote: Might want to look at the login.cmd file and see if any logical variables/commands are defined that might give clues. Also, the .rpt files might have a header that gives some info about the program. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:44, Wayne S wrote: The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Might want to look at the login.cmd file and see if any logical variables/commands are defined that might give clues. Also, the .rpt files might have a header that gives some info about the program. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:44, Wayne S wrote: The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 1:44 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. > So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? > Chances are good if it is 86, then there'd be a pro port... these were reported extensively in the trade rags of the day, but sales weren't so it may be hard to say. Also, there were a few accounting packages that were also on cp/m and the PC so that might help... Though connecting press reports to these files might be hard... Warner Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: > > Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and > looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like > visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, > MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl > > Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? > Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: > Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? > Power of the internet! > > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > can: > > strings < theXfile.x | less > > Sometimes also: > > hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less > > Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: > > cat theXfile.x | strings | less > > It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case > of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. > > Also, comparing > > cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c > cat theXfile.x | wc -c > > would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of > it is something else. > > All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. > > HTH > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** >
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame. So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S wrote: Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 12:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you > can: I know what's in the files, that's easy. What I don't know is what created/used them. Recovering the content is fairly straightforward. Similarly, even on the BRU backup sets that are missing volume 1, I can recover most of the data, but all I'll have is file numbers, not names. So no one knows what used these files? Thanks, Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: > > Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? > > Power of the internet! > > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you can: strings < theXfile.x | less Sometimes also: hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction: cat theXfile.x | strings | less It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description. Also, comparing cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c cat theXfile.x | wc -c would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of it is something else. All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course. HTH -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/25/23 06:39, Kenneth Gober wrote: > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > I don't recognize it, but the filenames give me a very database vibe. A > database from back when each table was stored in a separate file. > The RPT filenames hint to me that they are preformatted output (with > escape codes) intended to be spooled to a specific printer later. > The MSL files are small so may be either screen layout definitions > or perhaps metadata describing the table files, which would be in the > DTP files. I suspect the DTX files would be config/index files for > the database application that managed all this, describing the > content and relationships of the DTP and MSL files. I figured that there was a database application involved, but it's not clear if it was used simply for quick access or if it represents part of the data stored. I was hoping that the file layout might ring a bell in someone's mind and an application be identified. That's typical for a lot of what I run into--people back up data, but never the program that created it. Even worse, the backups are missing volumes, such that even if you had the restore program, it would error out. So for example, I have a number of partial backup sets, but they're missing the first volume. It's possible to dig data out of the rest from the backup block headers, but any association with a file name has been lost. BRU? Give me TAR any day... Makes for lots of fun and games. Thanks, anyway. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/24/2023 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. Does anyone recognize this stuff? With the exception of CMD and TMP those are not RSX files at all. You would need to read documentation on the application that created them to find out what they actually are. bill
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > Does anyone recognize this stuff? > I don't recognize it, but the filenames give me a very database vibe. A database from back when each table was stored in a separate file. The RPT filenames hint to me that they are preformatted output (with escape codes) intended to be spooled to a specific printer later. The MSL files are small so may be either screen layout definitions or perhaps metadata describing the table files, which would be in the DTP files. I suspect the DTX files would be config/index files for the database application that managed all this, describing the content and relationships of the DTP and MSL files. -ken
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:39 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: > > https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu > > Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files > themselves. > > Does anyone recognize this stuff? > > --Chuck > Not specifically, no. But the .RPT files might be reports - text files or printed output, so they might provide a clue. But I guess you have looked at them already and found no clues. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote: > Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? > Power of the internet! Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD: https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files themselves. Does anyone recognize this stuff? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Any RSX-11 fans able to identify file types?
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look? Power of the internet! Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:58, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > I've got a few backup sets (potentially incomplete) done on MicroRSX > that were created with BRU on RX50 media. I've cranked out some code to > itemize the contents, but the file types are a mystery. I suppose that > one has to live in that world to know (e.g. MSL) > > The sets appear to be (parts) of an incremental backup scheme; I think > I've got at least one copy of the complete set. > > Would anyone be willing to have a look at the (ASCII) file catalog and > suggest the application that may have created the files? > > Email me offlist if interested. > > --Chuck
