[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Mark Huffstutter via cctalk]

I did find a reference on the UK Concorde Heritage site from a
Guy who mentioned that He had been involved with rehabilitating 
The Marilake in their aircraft, although it was 2011. I may try to ping
Him and see what he knows.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk  
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 11:12 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: Bob Rosenbloom 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Mark Huffstutter via cctalk]

Hi Bob,
Yes, I've found no shortage of statements on the web saying they
Were LCD or Plasma, just haven't found anything definitive. 
`
The early plasma displays, like the Compaq III portable, Grid Case
And others were definitely orange-red. For a while it was thought that 
Plasma displays were going to take over the world, which they did for
a while. There was apparently a lot of work going on in color plasma
displays in the 80's, but it seems unlikely that a suitable color plasma was 
available and rated for aircraft service by 1985. I found a NASA tech report 
concerning developing plasma displays for the Space Shuttle.

 The commercial color displays arrived in 1992, but they were developed
with much higher res and color gamut than the Concorde use would have
required. 

Given the time period, I wonder if there is anyone at modern
Day Marilake that would still have the information.  They did bid the proposed
Updated Mach display for the return to flight planned upgrade, but that
Never really happened. Called the "Rocket Project". There is a reference
On an old (2005) edition of their web page. It does say that that version was 
LCD.

You can see that here: 
https://web.archive.org/web/20050207053216/http://www.marilake.com/

Select "Products" then "Concorde Displays"

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk  
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 11:12 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: Bob Rosenbloom 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

This link mentions the Marilake displays were LCD: 
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194031

Most plasma displays I've seen were more red or red/orange. The Marilake 
displays look too yellow. Could be a monochrome LCD with an EL backlight.

Bob

On 9/16/2023 9:55 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote:
>   Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, 
> still in business.
>  From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British 
> Airways Concordes Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 
> segment LED display.  The French Concordes apparently retained the earlier 
> LED type display.
>
> The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the 
> Marilakes.
> Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma 
> displays.
> Nothing definitive, however.
>
> www.marilake.com/
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk 
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 9:37 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> 
> Cc: ste...@malikoff.com ste...@malikoff.com 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?
>
>
> Andrew said
>> Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were 
>> replaced with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. 
>> This would mean they are probably LCDs.
>>
>> http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html
>>
>> Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh:
>>
>> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833
> Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turned 
> up this page, which mentions "There was a plasma display at the front of the 
> cabin showing the altitude, the air temperature and the current speed in both 
> miles per hour and Mach number."
> https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience


--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Andrew Warkentin via cctalk]

On 9/16/23, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk  wrote:
>   Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, 
> still in
> business.
> From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British Airways
> Concordes
> Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 segment LED display.  The
> French
> Concordes apparently retained the earlier LED type display.
>
> The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the
> Marilakes.
> Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma
> displays.
>

Apparently they never actually installed newer displays despite the
impression I got from the last article I linked. That makes a bit more
sense. I'd think if they'd installed them in the early 2000s they
would have used full-color displays.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=319307

According to this thread, there was an early version of the Marilake
display that was an LCD, but for various reasons it was rather flaky
and they ended up replacing it with a plasma display, which is what is
seen in most photos/videos.

https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question-61.html

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk]

This link mentions the Marilake displays were LCD: 
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194031


Most plasma displays I've seen were more red or red/orange. The Marilake 
displays look too yellow. Could be a monochrome LCD with an EL backlight.


Bob

On 9/16/2023 9:55 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk wrote:

Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, 
still in business.
 From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British Airways 
Concordes
Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 segment LED display.  The 
French
Concordes apparently retained the earlier LED type display.

The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the 
Marilakes.
Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma displays.
Nothing definitive, however.

www.marilake.com/

Mark

-Original Message-
From: ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 9:37 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Cc: ste...@malikoff.com ste...@malikoff.com 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?


Andrew said

Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced
with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would
mean they are probably LCDs.

http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html

Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833

Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turned up this 
page, which mentions "There was a plasma display at the front of the cabin showing 
the altitude, the air temperature and the current speed in both miles per hour and Mach 
number."
https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience



--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Mark Huffstutter via cctalk]

Actually, it is a "Marilake" display, built by Marilake in the UK, 
still in business. 
From what I have been able to find, they were installed in British Airways 
Concordes
Around 1985, to replace a much less attractive 7 segment LED display.  The 
French 
Concordes apparently retained the earlier LED type display.

The other article is referring to a different display that replaced the 
Marilakes.
Most of the references I have found indicate the Marilakes were Plasma displays.
Nothing definitive, however.

www.marilake.com/

Mark

-Original Message-
From: ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk  
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 9:37 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Cc: ste...@malikoff.com ste...@malikoff.com 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?


Andrew said
> Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced 
> with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would 
> mean they are probably LCDs.
> 
> http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html
> 
> Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh:
> 
> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833

Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turned 
up this page, which mentions "There was a plasma display at the front of the 
cabin showing the altitude, the air temperature and the current speed in both 
miles per hour and Mach number."
https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk]

Andrew said
> Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced
> with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would
> mean they are probably LCDs.
> 
> http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html
> 
> Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh:
> 
> https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833

Interesting. Searching for 'Marrilite display' (I wonder what that is) turned 
up this page, which mentions 
"There was a plasma display at the front of the cabin showing the altitude, the 
air temperature and the current speed in both miles per hour and Mach number."
https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-cabin--passenger-experience

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Andrew Warkentin via cctalk]

On 9/16/23, Andrew Warkentin  wrote:
>
> In this video , they
> definitely appear to be some kind of video displays, since they show
> graphics before takeoff and have a very noticeable refresh. These
> almost certainly were a later addition, presumably replacing the
> 7-segment displays that Tim mentioned (which can be seen at
> ).
>

Just found this article, and apparently the old displays were replaced
with the new ones shortly after the grounding in 2000/2001. This would
mean they are probably LCDs.

http://www.concordesst.com/returntoflight/mods.html

Also, here's a photo that very clearly shows the refresh:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7009833

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[ste...@malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk]

Tim said
> Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's 
> in-cabin display?
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg


It sort of looks like the extreme left and right edges are curved so I think it 
could be a backlit film moved between spools. 
It also seems very flat, not impinging the cabin bulkhead.

If this is the case it could be much like the late 1950s/early 60s Union Switch 
and Signal Readall Readout which has a backlit Mylar tape:
https://archive.org/details/TNM_Readall_Readout_Instruments_from_Union_Switch_and_Signal_Division_20170623_0181/

I happen to have one I snagged off UK eBay a few years ago, it is the 
64-character UN366299 assignment listed on page 9.
I haven't taken the cover plate off or powered it up yet.

Steve.

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Andrew Warkentin via cctalk]

On 9/16/23, Paul Koning via cctalk  wrote:
>
>>
>> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a
>> popular control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but
>> I can't rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any
>> event there doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between
>> digits that I might expect with either of those technologies.
>
> I would make the same guess.  They look a bit like the IEE "In line display"
> numeric projection displays that were popular in the 1960s.  I have a
> couple, they are very nice high quality (very readable) numeric displays
> using a set of mini-projectors each with its own incandescent lamp to
> project a digit onto a frosted glass (or plastic) screen.
> https://www.industrialalchemy.org/articleview.php?item=511
>
> The Concorde displays are not those exact units but they may well use the
> same technology, or perhaps even use a custom-made variant.
>
>   paul
>
>
>

In this video , they
definitely appear to be some kind of video displays, since they show
graphics before takeoff and have a very noticeable refresh. These
almost certainly were a later addition, presumably replacing the
7-segment displays that Tim mentioned (which can be seen at
).

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 16, 2023, at 11:52 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:
> 
> Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's 
> in-cabin display?
> 
> Examples:
> 
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg
> 
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg
> 
> 
> The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and 
> Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others 
> show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet 
> the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also 
> popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" 
> but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with 
> no visible segmentation?
> 
> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular 
> control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't 
> rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there 
> doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might 
> expect with either of those technologies.

I would make the same guess.  They look a bit like the IEE "In line display" 
numeric projection displays that were popular in the 1960s.  I have a couple, 
they are very nice high quality (very readable) numeric displays using a set of 
mini-projectors each with its own incandescent lamp to project a digit onto a 
frosted glass (or plastic) screen.  
https://www.industrialalchemy.org/articleview.php?item=511

The Concorde displays are not those exact units but they may well use the same 
technology, or perhaps even use a custom-made variant.

paul

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

Nice.  They have quite a collection -- including two I have (I think from a 
different supplier), the A-10 "Warthog" and the SR-71.

Good to see that, unlike some others, they don't claim copyright on those 
scans, which of course would not be valid (at least not in the USA).

paul

> On Sep 16, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want…
> 
> WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers
> 
> e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford
> 
> Martin
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Cc: Shoppa, Tim 
> Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology?
> 
> Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:
> 
> Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's 
> in-cabin display?
> 
> Examples:
> 
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg
> 
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg
> 
> 
> The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and 
> Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others 
> show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet 
> the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also 
> popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" 
> but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with 
> no visible segmentation?
> 
> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular 
> control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't 
> rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there 
> doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might 
> expect with either of those technologies.
> 
> The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the 
> left and right edges which might be a clue?
> 
> Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment 
> green LED display. Don't need help with that one .
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> 
> 

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Apparently, the Museum of Flight in Seattle, Washington has one on display:

https://www.museumofflight.org/exhibits-and-events/aircraft/concorde

Perhaps if you bring a screwdriver with you they might let you peek behind
some panels? :D

Sellam

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:37 AM Wayne S via cctalk 
wrote:

> You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want…
>
> WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers
>
> e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford
>
> Martin
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Cc: Shoppa, Tim 
> Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology?
>
> Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:
>
> Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's
> in-cabin display?
>
> Examples:
>
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg
>
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg
>
>
> The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach
> and Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and
> others show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT
> colors, yet the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors
> were also popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident
> "flatness" but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits
> like this with no visible segmentation?
>
> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a
> popular control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I
> can't rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any
> event there doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between
> digits that I might expect with either of those technologies.
>
> The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at
> the left and right edges which might be a clue?
>
> Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and
> 7-segment green LED display. Don't need help with that one .
>
> Tim N3QE
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Wayne S via cctalk]

You can find some manuals here, but probably not what you want…

WWW.FLIGHT-MANUALS-ONLINE.COM


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 16, 2023, at 09:34, Martin Bishop via cctalk  
wrote:

The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers

e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford

Martin

-Original Message-
From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: Shoppa, Tim 
Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology?

Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:

Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-cabin 
display?

Examples:

https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg

https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg


The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and 
Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others show 
it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the 
display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popular 
for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'm 
not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visible 
segmentation?

I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular 
control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't rule 
out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there 
doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might 
expect with either of those technologies.

The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the 
left and right edges which might be a clue?

Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment 
green LED display. Don't need help with that one .

Tim N3QE

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

The UK Concorde heritage sites may provide contacts / answers

e.g. https://www.heritageconcorde.com/duxford

Martin

-Original Message-
From: Shoppa, Tim via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] 
Sent: 16 September 2023 16:53
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: Shoppa, Tim 
Subject: [cctalk] Concorde cabin display technology?

Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:

Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's in-cabin 
display?

Examples:

https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg

https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg


The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and 
Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others show 
it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet the 
display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also popular 
for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" but I'm 
not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with no visible 
segmentation?

I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular 
control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't rule 
out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there 
doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might 
expect with either of those technologies.

The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the 
left and right edges which might be a clue?

Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment 
green LED display. Don't need help with that one .

Tim N3QE

[cctalk] Re: Concorde cabin display technology?

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2023-Sep-16, at 8:52 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> Not quite computer tech but I figure this is the best place to ask:
> 
> Does anyone recognize the display tech that was used on the Concorde's 
> in-cabin display?
> 
> Examples:
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON15.jpg
> https://samchui.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CON16.jpg
> 
> The display had fully-formed digits and letters, and showed either Mach and 
> Feet, or Temp and MPH. Some pictures show the display in green and others 
> show it in orange - which of course were popular monochrome CRT colors, yet 
> the display looks too "flat" to be a couple CRT's. Those colors were also 
> popular for Electroluminiscent displays which matches the evident "flatness" 
> but I'm not sure I've seen any EL's with fully formed digits like this with 
> no visible segmentation?
> 
> I want to guess it was individual digits back-projected - which was a popular 
> control-theater display tech at the end of the 20th century - but I can't 
> rule out, say, really well-done edge-lit character plates. In any event there 
> doesn't seem to be any visible jitter up and down between digits that I might 
> expect with either of those technologies.
> 
> The "FEET" display in the above-referenced JPG's shows some artifacts at the 
> left and right edges which might be a clue?
> 
> Some pics of the BA Concorde interior had a simple 15-segment and 7-segment 
> green LED display. Don't need help with that one .


It sure looks like back-projection. Rather than individual digits, perhaps it 
was a single scroll for each of the items. E.g. the altitude display may have 
been only 1000-ft resolution, the temperature display only 5-degree resolution, 
etc., reducing the count of values to be presented to something manageable. 
Even then though, I can't say I've seen an off-the-shelf type that would fit, 
even with custom films. But being Concorde, a full-custom design is quite 
conceivable.