[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
Not sure I share your definition of 'fun'... On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 8:29 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 2:06 AM John Herron via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. > > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. > > > > ME> What was the first personal computer? > > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one > > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released > > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation > > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based > > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED > > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking > > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer > > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously > > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. > > > > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) > > > > > I honestly do agree that in our modern PC world, prior to the smartphone > anyway, the first major micorprocessor-driven microcomputer that was > successful in the US is the Altair. > > This would be a fun topic for a series of online debates. There seem to be > a few angles > > 1) First microcomputer of the modern style (desktop computer running > home/small business applications) > 2) First computer that was primarily used as a personal computer but not > necessarily practically or large-scale > 3) First inadvertent use of a computer as a personal computer (i.e. first > application developed for personal use on a machine not originally designed > for such a purpose) > > more? > > BIl
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 2:06 AM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. > > ME> What was the first personal computer? > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. > > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) > > I honestly do agree that in our modern PC world, prior to the smartphone anyway, the first major micorprocessor-driven microcomputer that was successful in the US is the Altair. This would be a fun topic for a series of online debates. There seem to be a few angles 1) First microcomputer of the modern style (desktop computer running home/small business applications) 2) First computer that was primarily used as a personal computer but not necessarily practically or large-scale 3) First inadvertent use of a computer as a personal computer (i.e. first application developed for personal use on a machine not originally designed for such a purpose) more? BIl
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
I’m surprised you didn’t quiz ChatGPT until it refused to answer and/or crashed. I understand “it” can use very “colorful” language when provoked and poked. ;) Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 29, 2024, at 11:06 PM, John Herron via cctalk > wrote: > > Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. > > ME> What was the first personal computer? > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. > > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) > >> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying? >> >> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-worlds-oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0XLQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_zU9npLd2aOC1SSXE13QtKIpVwLXoSfmIprnTqf2pwotD3ZeGgUwtxN5ggJxhF9_IcL815ePnMlO >> >> cheers, >> Nigel >> >> >>> On 2024-05-28 13:45, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: >>> >>> In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee >>> sapling back then. >>> >>> It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since >>> there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The >>> grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little >>> current drawn. >>> >>> And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, >>> since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let >>> the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! >>> >>> Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out >>> a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have >>> changed people's minds! >>> >>> 73 de Nigel ve3id >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: > Just what is a gas radio? A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity >> mains. Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid accumulator for the valve filaments). The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. -tony >>> -- >>> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >>> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >>> Skype: TILBURY2591 >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 >> >> >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer. Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer. ME> What was the first personal computer? ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair. (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.) On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying? > > https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-worlds-oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0XLQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_zU9npLd2aOC1SSXE13QtKIpVwLXoSfmIprnTqf2pwotD3ZeGgUwtxN5ggJxhF9_IcL815ePnMlO > > cheers, > Nigel > > > On 2024-05-28 13:45, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: > > > > In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee > > sapling back then. > > > > It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since > > there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The > > grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little > > current drawn. > > > > And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, > > since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let > > the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! > > > > Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out > > a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have > > changed people's minds! > > > > 73 de Nigel ve3id > > > > > > > > On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: > >> > >>> Just what is a gas radio? > >> A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity > mains. > >> > >> Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes > >> until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both > >> energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number > >> of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with > >> other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather > >> than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid > >> accumulator for the valve filaments). > >> > >> The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a > >> result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical > >> devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type > >> hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas > >> burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame > >> rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. > >> > >> Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console > >> cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I > >> repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a > >> normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio > >> which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a > >> speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This > >> consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple > >> junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. > >> > >> There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the > >> room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so > >> it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. > >> > >> AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. > >> > >> -tony > >> > >> > > -- > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
I did a bit of searching on Google Books and there is an article from the June 28, 1972 issue of ComputerWorld that states "Ever since Hitachi introduce the Hitac 10 as a 'personal computer' in 1969, not only the regular computer manufacturers but electric appliance, calculator, watchmakers, communications and software companies, and even textile manufacturers, have plunged into the minigame." While they are talking about minis, what this does show is that the term "personal computer" was used prior to the advent of the Altair.
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
Could this be the answer to the question we have been studying? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cleaning-crew-discovers-one-worlds-oldest-surviving-desktop-computers-180984399/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0XLQ55t9rqdmPmIZ2G9wnk5PQyQBAPgIldqyWY1aSBSumxmnIxxj1pKB8_aem_AYsP2xUVa1G4_zU9npLd2aOC1SSXE13QtKIpVwLXoSfmIprnTqf2pwotD3ZeGgUwtxN5ggJxhF9_IcL815ePnMlO cheers, Nigel On 2024-05-28 13:45, Nigel Johnson Ham wrote: In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee sapling back then. It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little current drawn. And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have changed people's minds! 73 de Nigel ve3id On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: Just what is a gas radio? A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains. Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid accumulator for the valve filaments). The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. -tony -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
In line with my memories completely, Tony, although I was just a wee sapling back then. It is also where the terms 'A', 'B' and 'C' supplies come from, since there were three batteries per radio, grid bias, HT, and heaters. The grid bias battery lasted a long time since there was very little current drawn. And I have fond memories of learning to play the piano by gaslight, since the elderly spinster piano teacher and her mother refused to let the house be connected to the electric mains as they were afraid of it! Then of course there was the Ronan Point gas explosion which blew out a whole floor of a high-rise building in London that might have changed people's minds! 73 de Nigel ve3id On 2024-05-28 13:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: Just what is a gas radio? A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains. Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid accumulator for the valve filaments). The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. -tony -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
More on gas radios: http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/thermoelectric/thermoelectric.htm#rl --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/28/24 10:05, ben via cctalk wrote: > Just what is a gas radio? One powered by thermoelectricity fueled by lighting gas. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Museum Looks to be an English peculiarity. Akin to the wood-gas powered card. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 6:06 PM ben wrote: > Just what is a gas radio? A radio that runs off gas rather than plugging into the electricity mains. Let me explain. The main use for either gas or electriciy in UK homes until the mid 1920s was heating (including cooking) and light. Both energy sources could easily be used for that. But then a large number of electric appliances using motors started to appear, along with other things, like radios that ran off the electricity mains (rather than a dry battery for the HT supply (B+) and a single-cell lead acid accumulator for the valve filaments). The gas supply companies were worried they would lose business as a result and designed gas powered version of all the mains electrical devices. One classis was the table fan which had a small Stirling-type hot air engine to turn the blades. There was of course a little gas burner to run the engine. The only problem was the heat of the flame rather negated the cooling effect of the fan. Anyway, the gas radio. This was a wooden floor-standing console cabinet looking like most other radios of the time. The bit I repaired (for a museum, where I understood it would be run off a normal electrical power supply for obvious reasons) was the radio which was a normal-for-the time 3 or 4 valve (tube) set. There was a speaker in the cabinet too. At the bottom was the power supply. This consisted of a gas burner with a thermopile (array of thermocouple junctions) on top to provide the valve filament and HT voltages. There was no flue. The combustion products were simply vented into the room, And yes the gas burner was inside the wooden console cabinet, so it was something of a fire risk to be polite about it. AFAIK they were never sold to the public, thankfully. -tony >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 2024-05-28 10:58 a.m., Tony Duell wrote: On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:56 PM ben via cctalk wrote: --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used extension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended for gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction completed, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A Still wanting a GAS Computer? :) I once repaired a gas radio (dating from the 1930s). No I am not joking. -tony Just what is a gas radio?
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 5:56 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > > --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some > > fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared > > in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used > > extension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. > > --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended > > for gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction > > completed, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. > > --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A > > Still wanting a GAS Computer? :) I once repaired a gas radio (dating from the 1930s). No I am not joking. -tony
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 2024-05-28 8:43 a.m., CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: so if ONE person maybe living in a loft formerly industrial space has water cooling, and 200 amp 3 phase in their house, that automatically makes EVERY computer using that power personal computer eligible? --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used extension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended for gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction completed, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A Still wanting a GAS Computer? :)
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
so if ONE person maybe living in a loft formerly industrial space has water cooling, and 200 amp 3 phase in their house, that automatically makes EVERY computer using that power personal computer eligible? --First Appartment I lived in had gas refrigerator/stove AND still had some fixtures for gas lighting. washer/dryer/furnace/hot water were all shared in basement, real screw in fuses (not safety) so MAYBE had 220 if you used extension cords to two rooms, probably 10 amps. --townhouse my parents moved to had 220 at the circuit box, but intended for gas appliances and you either bought central AC before construction completed, or tough luck, so no 220 outlets. --my first two personal apartments again no 220, probably 15 A --my condo had hi amp 110 for the living room sleeve A/C --rental house when married back to older, no 220 --current house has 220 hard wired for hot water, sauna, & central A/C, had 220 outlet (or hard wired?) for electric stove in the kitchen (now ex-wife swapped out for gas as first priority, so wires capped and hidden under floor), so only outlet for 220 is in laundry room for electric dryer, damp and not a good place to run a computer.. --Carey > On 05/28/2024 8:02 AM CDT Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 5/25/2024 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > ... > > > > Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from > > competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp > > wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires > > special power wiring cannot be "personal" > > > > None of the houses I have lived in were limited to 120V 15A. Even my > very first apartment 50 years ago (over some guys garage) had 120V 30A > (Intended for an A/C Unit but you could plug anything in it you wanted.) > Every house I have owned had 230V available. I have several large power > outlets in my current home. Range, clothes dryer, water heater, hot > tub. And I have 220V 50A in the garage feeding my welder, electric > heater and a 30A outlet for my camper. > > In the past I have had PDP-11's (with RL and RA disks), VAX, AT 3b's, > an Apollo (great space heater on cold winter days) and piles of systems > people are more likely to accept as "Personal". > > bill
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/25/2024 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, one guy could program it and run it. The LINC comes in a close second. Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires special power wiring cannot be "personal" None of the houses I have lived in were limited to 120V 15A. Even my very first apartment 50 years ago (over some guys garage) had 120V 30A (Intended for an A/C Unit but you could plug anything in it you wanted.) Every house I have owned had 230V available. I have several large power outlets in my current home. Range, clothes dryer, water heater, hot tub. And I have 220V 50A in the garage feeding my welder, electric heater and a 30A outlet for my camper. In the past I have had PDP-11's (with RL and RA disks), VAX, AT 3b's, an Apollo (great space heater on cold winter days) and piles of systems people are more likely to accept as "Personal". bill
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
[Forwarded from Martin Bishop as some anti spam mechanism rejects his posts] -Original Message- From: Martin Bishop Sent: 27 May 2024 23:57 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer In the UK the domestic wiring norm is 13A plugs on a 32A ring at 230V : ~3 kW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#BS_1363_(Type_G) My domestic computer supplies are wired out on BS4343 (Euro / Industrial) plugs and sockets 16A on a 32A ring at 230V : 3k68 VA. https://www.edwardes.co.uk/categories/industrial-euro-plugs---sockets-bs4343 IMHO, based on measurement, the BS4343 outlets have much better earth conductivity than the BS1361 Gs I want the protective devices to trip, not an electrical experience - other folk's installations provided that Tshirt Martin -Original Message- From: Christian Corti via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 27 May 2024 16:53 To: Don R. Cc: Christian Corti Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer 16amps where? In Europe? At least in Germany 16 amps is standard. The Schuko outlets and plugs are rated for this current. As an example, the fuse box in my appartment is splitting up the three input phases (63A each) from the main distribution panel to 3x 3 circuits/16A each. Christian
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
16amps where? In Europe? At least in Germany 16 amps is standard. The Schuko outlets and plugs are rated for this current. As an example, the fuse box in my appartment is splitting up the three input phases (63A each) from the main distribution panel to 3x 3 circuits/16A each. Christian
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 2024-05-27 6:23 a.m., Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires special power wiring cannot be "personal" I I were King of the World, I'd immediately ban everything non-standard like 110/120V, 208V two-phase and 60Hz ish as well as everything non-metric/SI based ;-) I would ban the eruo and the metric system. Bring back British rule. Long live the KING. So, for example, the PB-250 qualifies; the IBM 1130 does not. The The IBM 1130 *does* run on a simple wall power outlet if you don't have the 1133 I/O multiplexer. Christian I/O motors can be adapted I suspect for phase and power. Remember not needing a raised floor and AC was big selling point of the IBM 1130 in the 1960's. Four-Phase Systems, had a impressive system in the 1970's. One 24 bit box with up to 32 terminals in 1974. The IBM 1130 was retired around then,and it was good time for 24 bit computers.
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
16amps where? Don Resor Sent from someone's iPhone > On May 27, 2024, at 5:27 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk > wrote: > > On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that >> requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 >> amps for the 220 volt world. > > Why the limit of 8 amps? > The standard fusing for a single-phase outlet here is 16 amps (230V/16A), > sometimes 10A. So yes, we can run 3,6kW devices from a single outlet (i.e. > water boilers, ovens, cloth dryers ...) > > Christian >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, 25 May 2024, Mike Katz wrote: Now that is an interesting refinement. Limiting to 1800 VA, most likely eliminates almost anything vacuum tube based. The LGP-30 needs less power. Christian
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 amps for the 220 volt world. Why the limit of 8 amps? The standard fusing for a single-phase outlet here is 16 amps (230V/16A), sometimes 10A. So yes, we can run 3,6kW devices from a single outlet (i.e. water boilers, ovens, cloth dryers ...) Christian
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis wrote: Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires special power wiring cannot be "personal" I I were King of the World, I'd immediately ban everything non-standard like 110/120V, 208V two-phase and 60Hz ish as well as everything non-metric/SI based ;-) So, for example, the PB-250 qualifies; the IBM 1130 does not. The The IBM 1130 *does* run on a simple wall power outlet if you don't have the 1133 I/O multiplexer. Christian
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sun, 26 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 5/26/24 17:30, dwight via cctalk wrote: I'm not claiming it was the first personal computer but is was my first personal computer. It was within a year or two of just about any other first personal computer. It was a Poly88 with ROM based tiny basic. I had a keyboard, I think I got from Mike Quin's as well as a Singer typing terminal that I converted into a serial printer. I used a transformer powered TV as a monitor and used a cassette recorder as mass storage. It was more personal than other machine as it was my personal creation after several modifications to enhance it. I learned a lot about computers and how they worked from that machine. I built a TVT and drove a hot-chassis all-tube Zenith portable TV. A little tricky when it came to getting the AC plugs the right way. Back then, US AC plugs were not polarized. . . . and, even when they were, at least half of the polarized outlets were wired backwards
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/26/24 17:30, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not claiming it was the first personal computer but is was my first > personal computer. It was within a year or two of just about any other first > personal computer. > It was a Poly88 with ROM based tiny basic. I had a keyboard, I think I got > from Mike Quin's as well as a Singer typing terminal that I converted into a > serial printer. > I used a transformer powered TV as a monitor and used a cassette recorder as > mass storage. > It was more personal than other machine as it was my personal creation after > several modifications to enhance it. I learned a lot about computers and how > they worked from that machine. I built a TVT and drove a hot-chassis all-tube Zenith portable TV. A little tricky when it came to getting the AC plugs the right way. Back then, US AC plugs were not polarized.
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
I'm not claiming it was the first personal computer but is was my first personal computer. It was within a year or two of just about any other first personal computer. It was a Poly88 with ROM based tiny basic. I had a keyboard, I think I got from Mike Quin's as well as a Singer typing terminal that I converted into a serial printer. I used a transformer powered TV as a monitor and used a cassette recorder as mass storage. It was more personal than other machine as it was my personal creation after several modifications to enhance it. I learned a lot about computers and how they worked from that machine. Dwight
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sun, May 26, 2024, 12:37 AM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Mike Katz via cctalk > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 12:21 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Mike Katz > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer > > > > You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal > > Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer > in > > advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single > person, > > in any environment, constitute a personal computer. > > Surely when we say "Personal Computer" we mean "Turing Complete Digital > Personal Computer" it is just a tad long winded to say so. > ... and if we simply say "digital" which excludes many devices that still > includes the Abacus > > Dave > The abacus is no more a computer than a ruler, or maybe a slide rule. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
> -Original Message- > From: Mike Katz via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 12:21 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Mike Katz > Subject: [cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer > > You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal > Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer in > advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single > person, > in any environment, constitute a personal computer. Surely when we say "Personal Computer" we mean "Turing Complete Digital Personal Computer" it is just a tad long winded to say so. ... and if we simply say "digital" which excludes many devices that still includes the Abacus Dave
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 2024-05-25 3:57 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 5/25/24 13:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for household residential wiring. Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the Sinclair doorstop wedge. Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 amps for the 220 volt world. --Chuck That means all the NEW gaming PC's have been deleted from this discussion, Good job. :)
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 5:16 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal > Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer > in advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a > single person, in any environment, constitute a personal computer. Perhaps in the future people will not so much be fixated on the terms we use and debate today and will instead mark progress in computing by some other more sociologically-centered metric, like adoption of computers at home. That seemed to really take off around 1975, with the public release of the Altair 8800. Time will tell. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 1:33 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I'm just adding some thoughts to the discussion. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Rick, I always appreciate your incredibly informative contributions. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
You see, we are back to my original comment. The definition of Personal Computer is quite fluid. Does it have to be called a Personal Computer in advertising literature or does any computer that can be used by a single person, in any environment, constitute a personal computer. If i am writing the definition than my original comment that the Antikythera Mechanism is the first computing device designed to be used by a single person.. To someone else the Altiar is the first personal computer. And to yet, someone else an early PDP or HP computer might be the first personal computer. There are many mechanical and later analog computing devices in use long before the modern digital computer. What about the Hollerith Machine used to count the census from the 1890's to the 1950's. It was a one person calculating machine but since it was used for commercial purposes does that make it a personal computer. When IBM initially released the first PC it was intended not for home use but for business use (for $10,000 1980's dollars). The Northstar Horizon was also marketed as a business computer but used by home S-100 hobbyists. The point, as I stated earlier, is that for every different definition we will find a different result. I guess this means that the definition of personal computer is personal This is written with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. On 5/25/2024 1:27 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 5/25/24 13:05, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: When announced and sold new, were the SIMON, LINC and G-15 sold and described as, in the exact words, "personal computer"? Did the guy with multiple supercomputers in his basement buy them NEW, to use them for their designed purpose? If not they are just memorabilia, like a victrola. The Bendix G-15 came out in 1956! It cost about $60,000 in 1956 Dollars. The first LINC machines were built at an MIT summer school by grad students who would then take them back to their home institutions and use then in biomedical research labs. The LINCs in this case cost about $50K, and were built starting in 1961-62. The term "personal computer" was not coined until a LONG time after. Jon
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
Now that is an interesting refinement. Limiting to 1800 VA, most likely eliminates almost anything vacuum tube based. My 1974 PDP-8/E computer alone (not counting external storage devices) was rated at 115V @ 10A. I don't know what the power factor of it is but that is 1150 Watts. Does that count? Technically I don't need any peripherals to program it or get the program results. I just use the front panel. Does that 1800VA include any necessary peripherals such as terminals, CRT's, disk drives, tape drives, etc? See, even that definition is really non-specific and open to interpretation. Should we add a limitation on volume occupied as well? This would eliminate many rack or multiple rack computers. What about memory type? Before semiconductor RAM and CORE there was serial, drum, tape and mechanical memory systems Does it have to be a digital computer. There we many table top analog computers in the 50's and 60's. Even Heathkit made some. Does the output need to be text (What about an analog computer with a digital nixie tube display)??? Everyone has their own definition of what a Personal Computer is to them. It's all subjective. How much computing power and electricity are we using trying to identify something whose mere definition is so subject to interpretation? On 5/25/2024 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 5/25/24 13:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for household residential wiring. Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the Sinclair doorstop wedge. Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 amps for the 220 volt world. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/25/24 13:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for > household residential wiring. > Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the > Sinclair doorstop wedge. Okay, I'll refine it for the international crowd. Anything that requires over 1800 VA to run isn't a "personal computer" That's about 8 amps for the 220 volt world. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, 25 May 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires special power wiring cannot be "personal" . . . or 100V or 220V in locations where those are the standard for household residential wiring. Woulld not want to automatically exclude UK machines, such as the Sinclair doorstop wedge.
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
While the LGP-30(vacuum tube/drum), G-15(vacuum tube/drum), and PB-250(transistor/delay lines) predated it, the ground-breaking Olivetti Programma 101(transistor/delay line) programmable desktop calculator was officially called a "personal computer" in some of its advertising and sales literature. It was introduced in October of 1965. Late in the game as far as single-user, standard AC-line-powered computing devices compared to those machines and probably others, but those machines, AFAIK, were not advertised nor specified as "personal computers". That said, I am much more aware of electronic calculator history than computer history, so I could be entirely biased here. Also, the Programma 101, as I've stated here before, only scratches the definition of a true computer in that it is not capable of handling any data type but floating point binary-coded decimal numbers, has very limited data storage capability, and had no peripheral interfacing capability. There were quite a number of single-user computing devices made and sold that ran on standard AC power, and were vastly more capable than the Programma 101, and predated it, but, AFAIK, were not advertised or particularly marketed as "personal computers". One that comes to mind is the Monroe Monrobot III(vacuum tube/drum), introduced in February, 1955. Another is the IBM 610 "Auto Point"(vacuum tube/drum) computer, introduced in 1957. It was originally named the "Personal Automatic Computer" (PAC) by its designer. I'm sure that there are quite a few other machines developed in the mid-to-late 1950's that would qualify as personal computing devices, but these two are the ones that I'm aware of that seem to fit the bill. Some of these may actually have been capable of manipulating data types other than decimal numbers. In 1962, Casio introduced its AL-1 programmable (up to 360 steps) relay-based electric calculator. It was definitely intended as a personal computing device, and calculations could be performed manually from a keyboard much like a regular calculator, but also automatically via plastic toothed gears that would have teeth broken off of them to encode program steps. The gears would be electrically read by the machine and directed the machine to perform computer-like operations. I'm not arguing that any of these, including the Programma 101, are the first "personal computers" by any means. I'm just adding some thoughts to the discussion. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/25/24 13:05, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote: When announced and sold new, were the SIMON, LINC and G-15 sold and described as, in the exact words, "personal computer"? Did the guy with multiple supercomputers in his basement buy them NEW, to use them for their designed purpose? If not they are just memorabilia, like a victrola. The Bendix G-15 came out in 1956! It cost about $60,000 in 1956 Dollars. The first LINC machines were built at an MIT summer school by grad students who would then take them back to their home institutions and use then in biomedical research labs. The LINCs in this case cost about $50K, and were built starting in 1961-62. The term "personal computer" was not coined until a LONG time after. Jon
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 11:05 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Because ONE *developer* of the LINC used his position to take one home and > use it the way we currently use "personal computers" does not mean EVERY > OTHER LINC was also a personal computer. Did he pay the full street > price? I'm guessing not. If you want to put a plaque on that single unit, > fine, but I am sure other one-off home brew machines need to be included > too. I think here were are talking about production machines available for > sale to all. > I agree with you on the Altair. I was only submitting my comment on the LINC in the scenario where we're throwing context out the window and relying on revisionism to define the term. But in actuality, there were more than one LINC made, and the design was the basis for the DEC MINC-11. So it has some of the requirements. > I believe some obsolete warships (certainly ICBM silos) have been sold to > private individuals. Does that retroactively mean the original warships and > ICBMs are "personal yachts and weapons"? I'll bet one rich guy bought a > Mississippi riverboat for personal use, does that make them *ALL* into > "personal pleasure craft"? That is a slippery slope. > > --Carey > Hey, if the government needs a fully-provisioned aircraft carrier to defend the nation, then so do I. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
When announced and sold new, were the SIMON, LINC and G-15 sold and described as, in the exact words, "personal computer"? Did the guy with multiple supercomputers in his basement buy them NEW, to use them for their designed purpose? If not they are just memorabilia, like a victrola. Somebody claimed the altair was the first time the actual words "personal computer" were used. If so, I would say that is the correct definition. Period. Final Answer, Regis. I cannot redefine my 8-core gaming machine with 3 NVIDIA cards as a "supercomputer" just because I want to and it has more memory and megaflops than some other device that historically was defined as a supercomputer. I cannot take 250 Radio Shack Color Computers and network them to cooperatively solve a single problem, and then call that a supercomputer, unless somebody did that when the computer was still being sold new (yes, I know there were "networks" for radio shack computers, but AFAIK they only let some number of students share resources from the central teacher's computer and in most or all cases could not talk directly to each other). specifically, like the altair, which seems to fit common usages of the words "personal" and "computer": "something sold NEW to private citizens, for personal enjoyment and not for gain" Granted some buyers hoped to develop software or hardware they could sell. Some may have had a day job in computers, but almost as likely might have been cooks or door-to-door bible salesmen (statistically not absolutely). Because ONE *developer* of the LINC used his position to take one home and use it the way we currently use "personal computers" does not mean EVERY OTHER LINC was also a personal computer. Did he pay the full street price? I'm guessing not. If you want to put a plaque on that single unit, fine, but I am sure other one-off home brew machines need to be included too. I think here were are talking about production machines available for sale to all. I remember seeing the original development unit for the Amdahl V6, made with descreet components and much larger (and slower) than the production models, which although it was nicknamed "Gene's machine", but that was NOT a personal computer, sorry. The ISA cards that anybody could buy to run S/370 operating systems in a PC should qualify, IMHO, but not 4331 level units. That is getting iffy, i'd like to see statistics on how many were purchased by schools and business for their employees to use AS LONG AS THEY REMAINED EMPLOYED, verses how many were purchased by individuals and run in their place of resident. I'm guessing at least 5% were sold to private individuals, and if anybody quibbles that is not enough, I am willing to not include them. I at least thought about buying one, perhaps there were ongoing license charges that ended that dream? I believe some obsolete warships (certainly ICBM silos) have been sold to private individuals. Does that retroactively mean the original warships and ICBMs are "personal yachts and weapons"? I'll bet one rich guy bought a Mississippi riverboat for personal use, does that make them *ALL* into "personal pleasure craft"? That is a slippery slope. --Carey > On 05/25/2024 10:20 AM CDT Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Sat, May 25, 2024, 8:14 AM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > > The problem with this debate is that the definition of > > > Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so > > > that the writers opinion is fact. > > > > Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal > > computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT > > more, and drew much more power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 > > Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, one guy could program > > it and run it. > > > > The LINC comes in a close second. > > > > Jon > > > > I know a guy in a basement in Germany that has three supercomputers up and > running, that he installed and maintains himself. Except for when he > invites guests over, they're very personal. > > That being said, I don't know that the Bendix G-15 fits the bill, but the > LINC very much does, especially considering it was kinda of intended to be > a single user machine, and at least one of the team that put it together > brought one home and used it there. > > If I were writing the definitive history of personal computing, I'd maybe > start with SIMON, then the LINC, then eventually the Altair. > > Sellam > > >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/25/24 08:14, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was > as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more > power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, > one guy could program it and run it. > > The LINC comes in a close second. Offhand, if I were King of the World, I'd immediately eliminate from competition those computers that cannot be run from a US 120 volt 15 amp wall receptacle. The rationale being that anything that requires special power wiring cannot be "personal" So, for example, the PB-250 qualifies; the IBM 1130 does not. The Honeywell H316 "Kitchen computer" probably does, in the sense of intent, but it was never produced for mass consumption. I recall a short-lived 60's attempt at a personal data retrieval device (cassette tape storage)--I don't think it had any computational capabilities, so probably not a computer per se. Anyone remember the name? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On Sat, May 25, 2024, 8:14 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > The problem with this debate is that the definition of > > Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so > > that the writers opinion is fact. > > Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal > computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT > more, and drew much more power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 > Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, one guy could program > it and run it. > > The LINC comes in a close second. > > Jon > I know a guy in a basement in Germany that has three supercomputers up and running, that he installed and maintains himself. Except for when he invites guests over, they're very personal. That being said, I don't know that the Bendix G-15 fits the bill, but the LINC very much does, especially considering it was kinda of intended to be a single user machine, and at least one of the team that put it together brought one home and used it there. If I were writing the definitive history of personal computing, I'd maybe start with SIMON, then the LINC, then eventually the Altair. Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: The problem with this debate is that the definition of Personal Computer is totally fluid and can be written so that the writers opinion is fact. Yes, the Bendix G-15 was said to be the first personal computer. It was as big as a refrigerator, and weighed a LOT more, and drew much more power. (300 vacuum tubes, 3000 Germanium diodes, drum memory.) but, one guy could program it and run it. The LINC comes in a close second. Jon
[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer
On 5/24/24 11:49, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: The problem with this debate is that the definition of Personal Computer is totally fluid A friend worked with an IBM 4361 at UMSL in St. Louis. It was very little used as the print and other unit record had a separate unit to handle that traffic to the University of Missouri, Columbia's 370-145 (later upgraded a lot). But the 4361 was his "PC" and was about ideal. He had the system, tape drive, a few disks, and a 2741 and a couple of terminals to log on with. Also a printer. Ran VM/SP 5 as the OS, so you could do about anything you liked without any impact on the system as far as creating a problem. lots of toys if you knew where to get them. I don't think they had anything but VM, or if they did wasn't complicated. I think the 4361 was the best of all of those systems, because of the integrated storage director. It had plenty of channels if you needed to add anything, and usually you'd have at least a tape drive on those. All of the air cooled systems, 31, 41, 61 and 81 had integrated com connections, so you could hook up a console, as well as a few other "regular" consoles w/o adding a controller of any sort. Thanks Jim
