Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[Eric Smith]

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 9:03 PM, drlegendre .  wrote:

> Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+
> the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things.
>

My Apple II+ had no fan, but never overheated. I heard a lot of people talk
about needing a fan, but had no idea why.

For much of its life my Apple II+ contained:
0:  language card (16KB DRAM)
1:  parallel printer card
2:  super serial card
3:  Videx 80-column card
4:  Microsoft Z-80 softcard
5:  homemade HP-IL interface card using HP 1LB3 chip
6:  Disk II controller
7:  Sorrento Valley 8-inch floppy disk controller
and a Videx Keyboard Enhancer II (6502-based replacement for the Apple
keyboard encoder, to add lower case, macros, etc.)

The only times I had any unreliability were when one DRAM chip went bad,
and when the firmware EPROM (2708) on the Videx card went bad.

At other points in time it contained
* Corvus hard disk interface
* Apple Profile hard disk interface
* Video Associate Labs VB3 microkeyer (large board in slot 7, cabled to an
even larger board over the power supply)

If anything was going to make it overheat, I would have bet on the VB3.

Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[drlegendre .]

My first encounter with Apple II was in 1978 or so, when we got 2 units at
my school. They were each fitted with a pair of Disc II units, and what
must have been an 8" B CCTV monitor.

Both floppy drives, plus the monitor were heaped atop the rear portion of
the Apple II case; drives to the left, monitor to the right, best of my
recall. Learned my first BASIC and so forth on those machines.

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Brad H 
wrote:

>
>
>  Original message 
> From: "drlegendre ." 
> Date: 2017-01-03  8:03 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)
>
> "Vent-less case" - LoL!!
>
> Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+
> the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things.
>
> When I was in high school, we'd pop the case tops open, and run them that
> way. Otherwise, they'd overheat and start screwing up after the first or
> second class period.
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brad H  bettercomputing.net
> > wrote:
>
> > >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:
> > > I brought the RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit
> Rev
> > 1 there too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that
> > interesting anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy would
> struggle
> > to get much above $1500.
> > >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed
> > motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted).
> >
> > >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why
> > there would be any interest.  I've got one >I bought with the original
> > packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my
> > collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that
> > collectible.  As in why are they collectible with low serials / part
> > >numbers.
> >
> > >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers
> > that would make them significant?  >The numbers made as Raymond said
> would
> > make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have
> > >some other significance.
> >
> > >just curious.
> > >thanks
> > >Jim
> >
> > When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's
> teeth
> > on ebay, etc.  Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev.  Then sellers
> > caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate
> > sales.  I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively
> declined
> > since 15 years ago.  I mean, there's 6+ out there theoretically, and
> > II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time.  Only
> diff
> > was the ROMs.  Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless
> > case.  Oh, and late SNs in the 7 range for some reason still get
> > $700-800.  I don't know why.
> >
> > The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about
> > original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong.  Some
> > authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands,
> for
> > example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine.  Some would claim that
> > can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the
> > keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines,
> > which on either side of mine have Rev 03.  Apple didn't use the same rev
> > consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile.  It's kind of a
> > dogs breakfast after Rev 0.
> >
> > My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI
> > II+.  More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth
> > fighting over.  A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design
> > features, is the only one I might want now.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yeah.  We were on to IIes when I was in grade school and then Commodores
> and PCs after that.. original IIs and II+ were long gone.  I have four
> units and never have any issue but come to think of it I do tend to run
> them case top off.  I imagine other users might have run them with the
> monitor (another massive heat source) sitting right on top.
> I think the ventless cases also were made of a weaker plastic that melted
> and warped just from the heat of the innards.  The few examples I've seen
> are almost invariably somewhat concave.

Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[Brad H]

 Original message 
From: "drlegendre ."  
Date: 2017-01-03  8:03 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any) 

"Vent-less case" - LoL!!

Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+
the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things.

When I was in high school, we'd pop the case tops open, and run them that
way. Otherwise, they'd overheat and start screwing up after the first or
second class period.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brad H  wrote:

> >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:
> > I brought the RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit Rev
> 1 there too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that
> interesting anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy would struggle
> to get much above $1500.
> >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed
> motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted).
>
> >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why
> there would be any interest.  I've got one >I bought with the original
> packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my
> collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that
> collectible.  As in why are they collectible with low serials / part
> >numbers.
>
> >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers
> that would make them significant?  >The numbers made as Raymond said would
> make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have
> >some other significance.
>
> >just curious.
> >thanks
> >Jim
>
> When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's teeth
> on ebay, etc.  Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev.  Then sellers
> caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate
> sales.  I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively declined
> since 15 years ago.  I mean, there's 6+ out there theoretically, and
> II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time.  Only diff
> was the ROMs.  Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless
> case.  Oh, and late SNs in the 7 range for some reason still get
> $700-800.  I don't know why.
>
> The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about
> original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong.  Some
> authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, for
> example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine.  Some would claim that
> can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the
> keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines,
> which on either side of mine have Rev 03.  Apple didn't use the same rev
> consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile.  It's kind of a
> dogs breakfast after Rev 0.
>
> My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI
> II+.  More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth
> fighting over.  A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design
> features, is the only one I might want now.
>
>
>
>

Yeah.  We were on to IIes when I was in grade school and then Commodores and 
PCs after that.. original IIs and II+ were long gone.  I have four units and 
never have any issue but come to think of it I do tend to run them case top 
off.  I imagine other users might have run them with the monitor (another 
massive heat source) sitting right on top.
I think the ventless cases also were made of a weaker plastic that melted and 
warped just from the heat of the innards.  The few examples I've seen are 
almost invariably somewhat concave.  

Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[drlegendre .]

"Vent-less case" - LoL!!

Add some RAM, maybe a DISC-II card and those things overheated even +with+
the vents.. that's why the Cider fan became popular, among other things.

When I was in high school, we'd pop the case tops open, and run them that
way. Otherwise, they'd overheat and start screwing up after the first or
second class period.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brad H  wrote:

> >On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:
> > I brought the RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit Rev
> 1 there too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that
> interesting anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy would struggle
> to get much above $1500.
> >The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed
> motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted).
>
> >I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why
> there would be any interest.  I've got one >I bought with the original
> packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my
> collecting, but I >don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that
> collectible.  As in why are they collectible with low serials / part
> >numbers.
>
> >is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers
> that would make them significant?  >The numbers made as Raymond said would
> make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have
> >some other significance.
>
> >just curious.
> >thanks
> >Jim
>
> When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's teeth
> on ebay, etc.  Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev.  Then sellers
> caught on and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate
> sales.  I actually track Apple II sales and prices have massively declined
> since 15 years ago.  I mean, there's 6+ out there theoretically, and
> II+ shared the same components and production lines for a time.  Only diff
> was the ROMs.  Now Rev 0 is where it's at, especially a rare ventless
> case.  Oh, and late SNs in the 7 range for some reason still get
> $700-800.  I don't know why.
>
> The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about
> original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong.  Some
> authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, for
> example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine.  Some would claim that
> can't be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the
> keyboard and case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines,
> which on either side of mine have Rev 03.  Apple didn't use the same rev
> consistently.. sometimes they just grabbed from the pile.  It's kind of a
> dogs breakfast after Rev 0.
>
> My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI
> II+.  More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth
> fighting over.  A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design
> features, is the only one I might want now.
>
>
>
>

RE: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[Brad H]

>On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:
> I brought the RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit Rev 1 
> there too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that interesting 
> anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy would struggle to get much 
> above $1500.
>The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed 
>motherboards now for $1500 (might not >work noted).

>I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why there 
>would be any interest.  I've got one >I bought with the original packing box, 
>which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my collecting, but I 
>>don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that collectible.  As in why are they 
>collectible with low serials / part >numbers.

>is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers that 
>would make them significant?  >The numbers made as Raymond said would make 
>most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they have >some other 
>significance.

>just curious.
>thanks
>Jim

When I got into collecting an original Apple II was as rare as hen's teeth on 
ebay, etc.  Those got huge bucks, regardless of rev.  Then sellers caught on 
and stuff started coming out of closets, basements, estate sales.  I actually 
track Apple II sales and prices have massively declined since 15 years ago.  I 
mean, there's 6+ out there theoretically, and II+ shared the same 
components and production lines for a time.  Only diff was the ROMs.  Now Rev 0 
is where it's at, especially a rare ventless case.  Oh, and late SNs in the 
7 range for some reason still get $700-800.  I don't know why.

The one thing I can tell you is, if an 'expert' tells you something about 
original II production, there's a good chance they are wrong.  Some 
authoritative sources claimed no Rev 02 boards went into public hands, for 
example, but I have one in my SN 16000s machine.  Some would claim that can't 
be original, but it is.. the date code on it is the same as the keyboard and 
case, all right in the range of other 16000 series machines, which on either 
side of mine have Rev 03.  Apple didn't use the same rev consistently.. 
sometimes they just grabbed from the pile.  It's kind of a dogs breakfast after 
Rev 0.

My Rev 02 operates no differently, other than Integer BASIC, than my RFI II+.  
More and more I'm not finding IIs to be all that amazing or worth fighting 
over.  A Rev 0, just owing to the few truly unique design features, is the only 
one I might want now.

Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[COURYHOUSE]

In a message dated 1/3/2017 1:09:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwsm...@jwsss.com writes:



On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:
> I brought the  RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit Rev 
1 there  too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that 
interesting  anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy would struggle to 
get 
 much above $1500.
The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted  and framed 
motherboards now for $1500 (might not work noted).

I  guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why  
there would be any interest.  I've got one I bought with the original  
packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my  
collecting, but I don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that  
collectible.  As in why are they collectible with low serials / part  
numbers.

is there any documentation as to when they were made with  those numbers 
that would make them significant?  The numbers made as  Raymond said 
would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think  unless they 
have some other significance.

just  curious.
thanks
Jim
 
Jim  the vintagecomputer museum guy wants a crazy price for a roll of  
teletype punch tape...
I do not understand some of his prices. Ed#

Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[Josh Dersch]

On 1/3/17 12:09 AM, jim stephens wrote:




On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:
I brought the RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit 
Rev 1 there too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 
that interesting anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy 
would struggle to get much above $1500.
The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed 
motherboards now for $1500 (might not work noted).


I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure 
why there would be any interest.  I've got one I bought with the 
original packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is 
rare for my collecting, but I don't know what makes any Apple 2 like 
that collectible.  As in why are they collectible with low serials / 
part numbers.


Apple/Jobs fetishists.  They'll never own an Apple I, so they want the 
next best thing -- an Apple II with a really low serial number. S/N 25 
recently sold for just under $15k.  The early revs are not really all 
that different than the later ones (Rev 0. has color fringing on text, 
Rev 1. removed the (tiny) prototyping area, after that the revisional 
differences get even more mundane).  If you want an Apple II to play 
with (as opposed to worshiping), a II+ will do the job, is nearly 
identical to a straight-II, and no one seems to care too much about them 
so they're still cheap.


It seems (from watching eBay over the past few years) that S/N's less 
than about 9K tend to go for more ($1000+), and the closer you get to #1 
the crazier it gets, obviously...


- Josh




is there any documentation as to when they were made with those 
numbers that would make them significant?  The numbers made as Raymond 
said would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think 
unless they have some other significance.


just curious.
thanks
Jim

Re: was: National Semi... is Apple ][ collectability (if any)

[jim stephens]

On 1/2/2017 11:26 PM, Brad H wrote:

I brought the RFI thing up with him.  No response.  There is a legit Rev 1 
there too asking $3500.  I don't find Apple IIs below Rev 0 that interesting 
anymore, personally.  I think even the legit guy would struggle to get much 
above $1500.
The vintagecomputer museum guy on epay is selling mounted and framed 
motherboards now for $1500 (might not work noted).


I guess someone would care about low ref Apple 2's but I'm not sure why 
there would be any interest.  I've got one I bought with the original 
packing box, which I have picked and moved twice, which is rare for my 
collecting, but I don't know what makes any Apple 2 like that 
collectible.  As in why are they collectible with low serials / part 
numbers.


is there any documentation as to when they were made with those numbers 
that would make them significant?  The numbers made as Raymond said 
would make most of us with Apple 2's millionaires I'd think unless they 
have some other significance.


just curious.
thanks
Jim